Arsenal 2023/24 - Have bottled the Champions League and are Bottling the League

horsechoker

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I don't think Arsenal can afford to keep sacking off competitions. Their last cup win was three years ago and now the squad is at it's peak. The Premier League is still something that's quite distant, the Champions League is maybe a bridge too far, cups like the league and FA are still great achievements in their own right.
 

GoonerBear

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I don't think Arsenal can afford to keep sacking off competitions. Their last cup win was three years ago and now the squad is at it's peak. The Premier League is still something that's quite distant, the Champions League is maybe a bridge too far, cups like the league and FA are still great achievements in their own right.
I'm not sure i agree with that, at least i certainly hope it's not. Still room for lot's of improvement for me.
 
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awop

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I don't think Arsenal can afford to keep sacking off competitions. Their last cup win was three years ago and now the squad is at it's peak. The Premier League is still something that's quite distant, the Champions League is maybe a bridge too far, cups like the league and FA are still great achievements in their own right.
I think the way we've been spending enormous amounts of money is influencing the way we see that competition. If getting knocked out of both cups for the next 2 years guarantee us top 4 finishes and the CL money that comes with it then it's an easy trade. Long term it allow us to continue raising the level of the squad while our main and young 11 gets better.
And as sad as it sounds, maybe in 2 years Pep and Klopp are out of the picture and you have a better chance to win the PL.
 

AshRK

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I find it funny to criticize Arsenal when you are a Man United fan and your team just went out the same way. Or worse (at home)
The difference is Arsenal supporters trust their club at the moment and support them even in the defeat. That makes us stronger as a team. And the table shows it for more than a year.
Well this thread is about arsenal so we will talk about arsenal. What has United going out got to do with anything. We are crap and there are plenty of threads talking about it. If you want to talk about that, join there.
 

Daydreamer

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I don't think Arsenal can afford to keep sacking off competitions. Their last cup win was three years ago and now the squad is at it's peak. The Premier League is still something that's quite distant, the Champions League is maybe a bridge too far, cups like the league and FA are still great achievements in their own right.
The Premier League isn't distant at all. All else being equal, had we won one of our league games against City last season we would have been champions. There are extremely fine lines between success and failure at the top level, so we need to prioritise in a way that City doesn't due to their stronger squad.

And even City have gone out fairly early in the League Cup twice in a row. It's just not that important to a lot of teams. In fact, it wasn't that important to most United fans on RedCafe until recently.
 

JP77

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I find it funny to criticize Arsenal when you are a Man United fan and your team just went out the same way. Or worse (at home)
The difference is Arsenal supporters trust their club at the moment and support them even in the defeat. That makes us stronger as a team. And the table shows it for more than a year.
This is so far from the truth it’s hilarious. Arsenal fans were calling for the head of Arteta for a few years until last season. The fans support the club in the defeats because you haven’t had many over the past year. The moment that changes they’ll react how they always react. Arsenal fans are no different to any others, in all honesty if anything a lot of them are worst than most other premier league club fans considering they’ve won absolutely nothing of note for two decades.
 

horsechoker

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The Premier League isn't distant at all. All else being equal, had we won one of our league games against City last season we would have been champions. There are extremely fine lines between success and failure at the top level, so we need to prioritise in a way that City doesn't due to their stronger squad.

And even City have gone out fairly early in the League Cup twice in a row. It's just not that important to a lot of teams. In fact, it wasn't that important to most United fans on RedCafe until recently.
City did what they needed and probably could've kicked up another gear if needed. They would've exceeded 90 points again if they didn't throw away their final game of the season due to being champions and going for the treble.

This Arsenal side might have won the title a decade ago but now I think a team has to get above 90 points. When Liverpool came 2nd in 2019, they reached 97 points so it was a sign they could win it.

If you can't get above 90 points, you'll need to hope City have an off-season.
 

Daydreamer

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City did what they needed and probably could've kicked up another gear if needed. They would've exceeded 90 points again if they didn't throw away their final game of the season due to being champions and going for the treble.

This Arsenal side might have won the title a decade ago but now I think a team has to get above 90 points. When Liverpool came 2nd in 2019, they reached 97 points so it was a sign they could win it.

If you can't get above 90 points, you'll need to hope City have an off-season.
Yep, I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. My point is that the title race was close enough to be determined by the head to head record of 1st vs 2nd (there is a potential 12 point swing, after all). The margins are incredibly fine, so I understand if the club need to pick their battles.
 

Rooney in Paris

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I'm sure winning the League Cup in February is a great kickstart for a team that is going on to win major trophies. I'm not arguing that it isn't. But it isn't the cause of that success, it just happens to precede it.
I think I'll side with Fergie, Mou and Pep among others on this one.
The Premier League isn't distant at all. All else being equal, had we won one of our league games against City last season we would have been champions. There are extremely fine lines between success and failure at the top level, so we need to prioritise in a way that City doesn't due to their stronger squad.
You're absolutly delusional if you think that is true. You did prioritize last year, and City won the league very comfortably.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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I don't think Arsenal can afford to keep sacking off competitions. Their last cup win was three years ago and now the squad is at it's peak. The Premier League is still something that's quite distant, the Champions League is maybe a bridge too far, cups like the league and FA are still great achievements in their own right.
Completely disagree with this. The league cup is not at all a "great achievement" for the level of resources invested in the current squad.

First, 3 years is not all that long to go without an FA Cup win especially for a side that is young and in a complete rebuild. Second, Arsenal has 4 FA Cups in the last 10 years and even those never really meant a whole lot when the side was not competing for the league. I remember all those FA Cup wins and they barely registered because the team was so far away from competing in the league. No one (either Arsenal fans or opposition fans) looked at those FA Cups as some great measure of success. As a long-time Arsenal fan, who remembers both league wins AND the last European trophy, the FA Cup just doesn't mean a whole lot to me unless it's coupled with league competitiveness (win or very close second). Maybe if I grew up in England I'd care about the FA Cup more but I just don't at this point in life after watching football for so many decades. And the League Cup is a joke. No one gives two shits about the league cup unless it's part of a double/treble or you're a very small club.
 

Daydreamer

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I think I'll side with Fergie, Mou and Pep among others on this one.

You're absolutly delusional if you think that is true. You did prioritize last year, and City won the league very comfortably.
I'll side with Fergie, Mou and Pep too, because the only time any of them identified a League Cup win as a key cause of all their subsequent success was in your imagination. It's a kickstart in a season that you'd rather have than not. No one is arguing otherwise.

But it's clearly not all that important. Mourinho won it with United alongside the Europa League and that didn't factor at all in the decision to dispense with him.

I don't think what I said is true - it is true. Maybe re-read if you're struggling. Yes, we prioritised and City won it. That doesn't necessarily mean it was a bad idea, it just means they're better than us.
 
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FeelingDangerous

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I’ve never remotely cared about the Carling Cup and its various incarnations as a competition. In Wengers pomp it was used to blood youth and was never taken seriously.

Even in our darkest days over the very (very) grim past two decades any celebration would have been tongue in cheek to my mates who support other clubs. “Yeah? You won the Champions League? WE won the Carling Cup. Have that.”

Rightly or wrongly its viewed as a lesser competition. It feels like a mid-level Premier League trophy. A realistic scalp for a West Ham or Brighton, no offense meant to them. Unfortunately, it’s dominated by City and their absurd depth. No tears shed having gone out.

What I would say is given where United are as a club at this precise moment, it felt like a game they had to win and a competition ETH had to take seriously – if only to stop the rot and inject some positivity. That had nothing to do with the significance of the competition and everything to do with the current struggles of the club. I think our two respective clubs are in very different places, in terms of mood amongst the fanbase, where the need to win last night were in stark contrast.
 

CannonBalls

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I personally don't care for the Carling cup at all. Partly because since the Wenger days we have used it to bed in youngsters (currently that not the case) but majorly because I just cannot respect a cup who has a final in Feb. If it were a serious compitition it would have a slot at the end of the season. (But thats just me)
 

ayushreddevil9

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I personally don't care for the Carling cup at all. Partly because since the Wenger days we have used it to bed in youngsters (currently that not the case) but majorly because I just cannot respect a cup who has a final in Feb. If it were a serious compitition it would have a slot at the end of the season. (But thats just me)
Yeah because it doesn't exist
 

wr8_utd

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I think Arsenal are a very good team now and genuine contenders with Liverpool and City for the title so even if the result might be disappointing, its probably exactly what they need to focus on the two competitions that matter to them. I know Fergie used to speak a lot about the importance of that win vs Wigan in the League Cup back in the day but I don't think its quite the same anymore. Unless the loss ends up having a demoralizing effect on Arsenal's League performances, I think they'll be secretly glad to be out of this cup. As United found last year, going deep across multiple cups is not the most ideal.
 

WeePat

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The fans attitude is partly because the clubs attitude towards it has helped make it that way.

And as you can see, even in here, it’s not a blanket view. Like other fan bases there are varying opinions to the various competitions.
I was basing it more on what the Arsenal fans around me were saying after the game and what I’ve seen on twitters. Obviously you aren’t a monolithic group, and some will have different thoughts about going out of the cup. I just thought it was odd fans of a team that has one solitary FA Cup in the last half a decade would turn their noses up at a chance to win a trophy, especially when you’re the best team left in it.
 

Changeisgood

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I can barely remember who won the league cup two years ago. Just like I dont already remember who won the Community shield two years ago. They are great to win it, but they do not define your season. Obviously the league cup has a bit more importance than the shield but they are a statistic rather than a memory a few years from now. Not many are going to speak of these competitions years down the line.
 

the_cliff

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I think Arsenal are a very good team now and genuine contenders with Liverpool and City for the title so even if the result might be disappointing, its probably exactly what they need to focus on the two competitions that matter to them. I know Fergie used to speak a lot about the importance of that win vs Wigan in the League Cup back in the day but I don't think its quite the same anymore. Unless the loss ends up having a demoralizing effect on Arsenal's League performances, I think they'll be secretly glad to be out of this cup. As United found last year, going deep across multiple cups is not the most ideal.
I'm sure they couldn't care less about this cup considering they'll be up there for the league and FA cup. People here just seem to want to stick it to Arsenal for no good reason, I do feel however, that they need to win a trophy soon. The efl cup though isn't really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

If they did win this trophy everyone would be saying well it's just the efl cup, downplaying it anyway.
 

Changeisgood

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Speaks more to your memory than to the cup
You have more storage in that memory of yours for games then. I cannot remember a single league cup game from years ago.I still remember moments from FA Cups well over twenty years ago, even bad ones. There is still some magic to the FA Cup while the,league cup is a statistic. There is for me a huge drop off in actual worth between the two.
 

Changeisgood

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Couldn't we play Zinny instead of Jorginho? Feel that would give us a better balance.
 

FootballHQ

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Nkeiteh may press decently and score tap ins here and there but he isn't good enough in these type of games to lead as CF.

Was issue last season once Jesus had his three month injury and remains a problem for them this season.
 

horsechoker

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Nkeiteh may press decently and score tap ins here and there but he isn't good enough in these type of games to lead as CF.

Was issue last season once Jesus had his three month injury and remains a problem for them this season.
Jesus is too injury prone. Are there any strikers they could get in Jan that would bang in 15 league goals?
 

RedPed

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You can never beat an Arsenal defeat to brighten up a weekend. At least they won't be bleating on about any 'Invincible' chatter crap anymore.
 

Rightnr

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Slowly but surely being found out. Not even slowly actually
 

Champ

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Slowly but surely being found out. Not even slowly actually
Eh??
One defeat and they're being found out? They were robbed of at least a point tonight.
 

AshRK

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Eh??
One defeat and they're being found out? They were robbed of at least a point tonight.
Result wise they have done well but performance wise they have been very underwhelming. Should have lost against Chelsea as well.
 

FootballHQ

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Jesus is too injury prone. Are there any strikers they could get in Jan that would bang in 15 league goals?
There was a link with Ivan Toney a few weeks back but you'd think they'd wait until next summer as he'll only have 12 months left and be back up to full match fitness.

They also wanted Dusan Vlahovic when he was at Fiorentina but his stock has gone down a bit in last 18 months at Juve so that would be more of a gamble.
 

ArtetasHair

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We desperately need a proper 9. So many balls in the box, center of the box, Nketiah nowhere to be seen. His hattrick was the worst thing to happen for us. Can't pass or carry the ball. A Carling cup level player at best.

You look at any title winning team, you had your RVNs, Henry, Drogba, Aguero etc. We are never winning anything with Nketiah as your number 9.
 

Rightnr

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Eh??
One defeat and they're being found out? They were robbed of at least a point tonight.
They were gifted a win against us that should have been a loss.

They have been total garbage in attack and it's clear Arteta is out of his depth managing on multiple fronts, as I predicted last season.

I never rated them and I'm more convinced than ever this will just end up with Wenger V2 where they make top 4 but win the sum of feck all
 

IrishRedDevil

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Our worst start to a league in 100 years (or something) and we are only 6 points behind the best ever Arsenal team.
 

AshRK

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Villa and Pool win tomorrow, they are 5th. So much for title contenders and improvement under arteta
 

ArtetasHair

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They were gifted a win against us that should have been a loss.

They have been total garbage in attack and it's clear Arteta is out of his depth managing on multiple fronts, as I predicted last season.

I never rated them and I'm more convinced than ever this will just end up with Wenger V2 where they make top 4 but win the sum of feck all
I have never ever seen a group of fans whining on and on about one decision. Weeks ago now. I didn't remember us going on about the VERY soft foul at OT last week robbing us off a lead? Every team who isn't City or Newcastle get fecked every week, its like RAWK 2008.

We have scored just 5 less goals than City. This is with Eddie fecking Nketiah leading our line. The way the league is run by an oil club (now about to be 2 of them) ending in Top 4 isn't the worst thing ever.