Assess the attributes of our central midfielders

Zlatattack

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I think our CM's are all good as different aspects of the game, but I don't think we have a pairing or a combination that is between them capable of doing everything you want a midfield to do. I'm going to list some attributes that I think our central midfield pairing should always have (between them). Feel free to add any more that you think are relevant. Then try and figure out of any of our midfield pairs can provide that.

Good tackling
Able to intercept passes
Able to read the game defensively and offensively
Able to position themselves to cover attacking fullbacks
Able to pass the ball forwards
Able to pass long and pick out runs
Able to circulate the ball to keep hold of posession
Able to press
Press resistant (ie able to pass under pressure)
Able to take players on
Able to play for 90 minutes at high intensity

Which pairing do you think can do all of that?
 
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DVB. Best all round CM, probably our most “intelligent” player. Can play as 6, 8, 10.

Pogba our most talented CM. Capable of the extraordinary, but to often just doesn’t perform.

Bruno our most passionate and productive CM.

Fred our best “unassuming” CM every team needs one, the type who’ll get a 7/8 out of 10 and most people won’t even realise why. Keeps the clock ticking.

McTomminay: Our most typical old school CDM, like Matic but not as technically good.

Matic: Great mix of strength and technique.
 

Andycoleno9

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Imo, on paper in top 5 best midfield lines in the world. And i am not joking. McT is the only one who is bang average (but has some use obviously).
I rate highly any single of them.
 

11101

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Added what I expect from DVB but we haven't seen him, so cant know for sure.

Good tackling - Fred, McT, Matic
Able to intercept passes - Fred, Matic, McT
Able to read the game defensively and offensively - Matic
Able to position themselves to cover attacking fullbacks - Fred, McT
Able to pass the ball forwards - Matic, Pogba, Bruno, (sometimes) Fred, DVB
Able to pass long and pick out runs - Pogba
Able to circulate the ball to keep hold of posession - Fred, McT, Bruno, DVB
Able to press - Fred, McT, Bruno, DVB
Press resistant (ie able to pass under pressure) - Fred, Bruno, Pogba, DVB
Able to take players on - Pogba
Able to play for 90 minutes at high intensity - Fred, McT, Bruno

From that you can see the best overlap is Bruno, Fred, and one other. Ideally Matic, but he hasnt got the legs, so McT is the next best in line. Which is what we play.

Bolded the one we really miss to help with transitions, and Bruno does everything Pogba can do, except maybe long range passing.
 

Drz

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I think our CM's are all good as different aspects of the game, but I don't think we have a pairing or a combination that is between them capable of doing everything you want a midfield to do. I'm going to list some attributes that I think our central midfield pairing should always have (between them). Feel free to add any more that you think are relevant. Then try and figure out of any of our midfield pairs can provide that.

Good tackling
Able to intercept passes
Able to read the game defensively and offensively
Able to position themselves to cover attacking fullbacks
Able to pass the ball forwards
Able to pass long and pick out runs
Able to circulate the ball to keep hold of posession
Able to press
Press resistant (ie able to pass under pressure)
Able to take players on
Able to play for 90 minutes at high intensity

Which pairing do you think can do all of that?
I'd add the ability to nick the ball off the opposition without tackling. Usually happens if the defending midfielder has correctly marked his opposition and just hustles the ball off him, while staying on his feet (Practical to then setup an offensive quickly for his team).
 

InfiniteBoredom

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They have everything between them but (bar Bruno) the most important thing:

The ability to maintain what they are good at at a high tempo/under pressure.

They can read the game, they can pass, they can intercept, they can tackle, but all too often they take another touch when it isn’t necessary, or dawdle on the ball for an extra second. When it comes to pure football ability, I refuse to believe ours comes second best to any other in the league at the moment, but that deficiency makes them perform at top 8 level instead of title chasing.
 

Trex

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They all have their qualities the problem is how to balance it

I don't think you can have balance with Pogba in the pivot regardless of who his partner is,play him with Fred,he can't simply cover while Fred does the hard running, play him with Matic he can't do the hard running,you'll have to play him with two midfielders like Juve use to with Pirlo and Vidal,he is too much of a luxury

I think Bruno+ Fred+deep lying playmaker would be balanced

I think our fullbacks contribute to the lack of balance,if we played with two technically gifted and offensive fullbacks Fred + Mctominay wouldn't be bad(aside giving width in the final third,fullbacks play line breaking passes from deep into the forwards as well)At the moment we play with Shaw, Fred, Mctominay and Awb,that line of play isn't great for ball progression,Telles hopefully improves that,if u look at Liverpool's midfield before Thiago they didn't utilize a playmaker in midfield either but TAA was more like a playmaker from the flank both with his crossing and passing ability,I hope Telles can be similar for us

Ole has to priorities a deep lying playmaker next summer,it crucial if we want to play front footed football
 

Hammondo

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Added what I expect from DVB but we haven't seen him, so cant know for sure.

Good tackling - Fred, McT, Matic
Able to intercept passes - Fred, Matic, McT
Able to read the game defensively and offensively - Matic
Able to position themselves to cover attacking fullbacks - Fred, McT
Able to pass the ball forwards - Matic, Pogba, Bruno, (sometimes) Fred, DVB
Able to pass long and pick out runs - Pogba
Able to circulate the ball to keep hold of posession - Fred, McT, Bruno, DVB
Able to press - Fred, McT, Bruno, DVB
Press resistant (ie able to pass under pressure) - Fred, Bruno, Pogba, DVB
Able to take players on - Pogba
Able to play for 90 minutes at high intensity - Fred, McT, Bruno

From that you can see the best overlap is Bruno, Fred, and one other. Ideally Matic, but he hasnt got the legs, so McT is the next best in line. Which is what we play.

Bolded the one we really miss to help with transitions, and Bruno does everything Pogba can do, except maybe long range passing.
I agree. Someone who can play something like Carrick would be perfect.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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Good tackling - Fred, McTominay, Matic
Able to intercept passes - Fred, McTominay, Matic
Able to read the game defensively and offensively - Fred
Able to position themselves to cover attacking fullbacks Fred, McTominay
Able to pass the ball forwards Fred, Pogba, Matic,
Able to pass long and pick out runs - Fred, Pogba
Able to circulate the ball to keep hold of posession - Matic
Able to press - Fred, McTominay
Press resistant (ie able to pass under pressure) - Fred, Pogba, Matic
Able to take players on - Fred, Matic, Pogba
Able to play for 90 minutes at high intensity - Fred, McTominay,

Which pairing do you think can do all of that?


Based on that, its Matic and Fred or even Fred and Pogba (haven't seen enough of them but the two were very good against Sevilla) but McTominay is improving game by game, both on and off the ball and I'm happy to see him and Fred starting for now.

Going forward, however, we need to replace Matic with someone who can dictate from deep, which I feel will compliment Fred/McTominay even more.
 

tenpoless

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vDB can do everything well enough. At least he would not have a glaring weakness. That's why I'm confused that we haven't played him that much.
 

eltigreFalcao

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I've got to say that our midfield is not as good as it looks on paper. Matic and Mct are not getting us anywhere. Pogba, hate to say, is a luxury and at the moment we don't have what's needed to deploy him in a suitable manner. Fred and Fernandes can be part of an ideal midfield but we're lacking one player as highlighted earlier in this thread. I do feel like DVB can be that guy given he accomodates to a deeper role or if we go for a Bruno-DVB double 8 with Fred laid back, it will require Bruno to play deeper as well but it will give some space for the rest of the team to play in advanced positions.
 

Web of Bissaka

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Good tackling - Fred, McT
Able to intercept passes - Fred, McT, (Bruno)
Able to read the game defensively and offensively
Able to position themselves to cover attacking fullbacks - Fred, McT
Able to pass the ball forwards - Fred, McT, Pogba, Matic, (Bruno)
Able to pass long and pick out runs - Pogba, (Bruno)
Able to circulate the ball to keep hold of posession - Fred, McT, VDB, (Bruno)
Able to press - Fred, McT, (Bruno)
Press resistant (ie able to pass under pressure) - (McT)
Able to take players on - (Pogba)
Able to play for 90 minutes at high intensity - Fred, McT

Which pairing do you think can do all of that?
A) Attributes?
1. Unsure what reading game def & off meant there. Is it controlling tempo? none of our players are good at it, not even prime Matic. Herrera is the last player we had that can control it at a low degree.

2. Press resistant should also include ability to keep the ball, ball retention and win fouls so definitely McT who can use his strength well in physical contest and also win fouls when losing, it's a bit of dark arts. Prime Matic used to be good at ball retention as does the Pogba that recently joined us in his first season, now the duo are just pure shit at it.

3. We should add Build-up. Matic, Fred and Bruno are good at this.

4. Need to expanse "pass the ball forwards" meaning because seriously all our CMs can do it, yes even McT despite the popular saying he's not which is BS. VDB yet to show that enough.

5. "Long pass" for me are only the two (Pog and Brun) who are very good at it, because McT and Matic sometimes pull a good long passes. Yes, even McT can do it but I wouldn't include them.

6. Playmaker or deep playmaker is missing. We definitely do not have a deep playmaker, we do are obsess in turning Pog into one, a futile shit attempts so far. But of course we do have two very good playmakers in Pog and Bruno.

7. "Support" is also missing there. A good CMs always support his teammates at mostly providing a passing option and also as good covers. Good sense of positioning, movements and anticipations are important here. Fred and McT are good at this. Matic used to be good at it but now he's only good as a consistent passing option provider. VDB is very good at constantly giving passing support options.


B) Players
  • Bruno in? We're not including Bruno as CM right? If we do, it'll be complete pairing him up with both Fred and McT in a 3 man midfield.
  • Matic declined so much. He's only good at build-up nowadays and helping to break low blocks (none at the OP list).
  • VDB seriously need to step-up when playing as CM/CDM, so far he's just showing how he's good at moving the ball around quickly the pitch on the floor and that's it. It's not even playmaking, just circulating possession around. Unsure if he's good at under pressure. Not enough games yet.
  • Pogba's ability in carrying the ball upfield and taking players on from CM have been massively rusty. Wouldn't say declined but more like bad form. We really don't train this at all in trainings didn't we. It was so good for his first two seasons here and some games in 3rd, then 4th seasons onwards, it's just shit.
  • Fred is as it is, fits CM. Definitely have flair and flashy which helps cover his flaws in fans eyes.
  • McT similarly as he is, fits CM and provide a lot of things, just that many vocal fans don't like him thinking he's shit providing nothing.

C) Overall Best pairings?
If only duo, none really, but if we have to choose... then it's clear why Fred + McT is the best duo CMs, but even they have limitations, there are things they can't provide. They are the most balanced and best defense considering Matic's up and down form. If Matic is in good form, then he and Fred are the best defensive pairing. Best attacking pairing in specific situation is Matic and Pogba, but this is only good if we're facing a total low blocks team with shit attacks so it's okay to totally risk it. Our fragile defense is enough to swat the shit attacks away. Never play both Matic and Pogba vs high pressing teams unless we're really asking to be spanked hard like a masochist.

If triple CMs, then definitely Bruno + Fred + McT. This isn't really helpful vs low blocks but it provides the good stability and total security our team desperately need and definitely balance Bruno's high risk killer passes which equals to high chance of losing possession because you can be sure that Fred and McT will make safer passes. As Fred and McT shield our backs, steal the ball back and basically fighting the midfield battle, Bruno can be more focus on attacking and creating, unlocking the opposing team's defenses. Bruno on his own can't be the only one though, so best is to put a playmaker on other positions not CM.

The thing about Fred+McT is that, we have both Lindelof and Maguire at their back who provide the good long passes from the back which Fred+McT can't really do at a more consistent basis, our CBs also need the protection from both Fred+McT, just one is not enough because on their own, either one of Fred and McT are lacking defensively. It's a good exchange balanced combinations.

We really should link with other players outside the scope of just the midfield to fully grasp and decide which CMs pairing are the best.
 
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Web of Bissaka

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vDB can do everything well enough. At least he would not have a glaring weakness. That's why I'm confused that we haven't played him that much.
Maybe once we do, we'll realize just how shit he is or at least a jack of a trade? like Herrera who some fans like to slate consistently?

Ok kidding, I like to see VDB paired up with both Fred and McT in at least two games with either one of course.
We've already seen VDB with Matic and it's shit, it's even against a shit team. Terrible.
 

tenpoless

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Maybe once we do, we'll realize just how shit he is or at least a jack of a trade? like Herrera who some fans like to slate consistently?

Ok kidding, I like to see VDB paired up with both Fred and McT in at least two games with either one of course.
We've already seen VDB with Matic and it's shit, it's even against a shit team. Terrible.
Yeah I personally would give vDB more time on the pitch, he's still new and haven't gotten the time to even adapt to his new team. Still young and very talented. If he clicks with the team he could be a jackpot. I saw him as a replacement for Pogba, atleast we tried a more proactive approach this time by signing him early.