ATG Managers Draft - R1 - Fortitude vs harms (SAF vs V. Lobanovskyi)

[harms]

Would just like to put this up


As I feel Mazzola probably needs the spotlight.

His running and movement with the ball is paramount for my team and highlights the the threat and distraction he brings to the table from behind Ronaldo.

Have to say, I really love this pick and how well he fits into Fergie's team. Technically he's usually labeled as a number 10, but he wasn't one, and personally if I ever needed to replace Rooney, he'd be very close to the top of that list. There's a slight criticism in there as well though, as in that case he should've been a part of the attacking unit and not a central player in a 4-2-3-1.

I love this dominating performance by Voronin — for some reason he was playing as a genuine box-to-box in this game, while the rest of the games at that tournament saw him either as a defensive midfielder or even as a center back, but he was amazing. Mazzola (number 14) had sometimes overlapped with him

Usually it ended up like this



To be fair, in a very cagey affair when Voronin's Torpedo had faced Mazzola's Inter, the latter won and Mazzola had scored the only goal over the 2 legs. Torpedo really should've won this, but lack of experience and lack of, well, luck (they've hit the post twice) played against them.

 

[Fortitude]

Have to say, I really love this pick and how well he fits into Fergie's team. Technically he's usually labeled as a number 10, but he wasn't one, and personally if I ever needed to replace Rooney, he'd be very close to the top of that list. There's a slight criticism in there as well though, as in that case he should've been a part of the attacking unit and not a central player in a 4-2-3-1.

I love this dominating performance by Voronin — for some reason he was playing as a genuine box-to-box in this game, while the rest of the games at that tournament saw him either as a defensive midfielder or even as a center back, but he was amazing. Mazzola (number 14) had sometimes overlapped with him

Usually it ended up like this



To be fair, in a very cagey affair when Voronin's Torpedo had faced Mazzola's Inter, the latter won and Mazzola had scored the only goal over the 2 legs. Torpedo really should've won this, but lack of experience and lack of, well, luck (they've hit the post twice) played against them.

One issue I had was trying to get a couple of players who matched Rooney, Yorke and Cantona in the hope of being able to emulate each iteration of the great teams, but the Cantona pick sort of fell short as the options weren't great enough to take in lieu of Streltzov and Mazzola, but in Mazzola there's an eclectic mix who can deliver in a number of roles so his flexibility plus his style of play made it a no-brainer for me.

I have him as a pseudo slip between AM and SS in the team, effectively as the ridiculously smooth transitions he made with his running and movement as well as his cleverness in playing the ball onward - not necessarily like a great 10 would, but in a way a smooth and elusive player does. I don't mean to imply he's static and just waiting in that area of the pitch because I envisaged him running across the line constantly looking for an opening and space and dragging at least one of your midfielders with him in the process.

I want my attack to be superfluous in transitions and very quick to turn a simple play into an active one either via running/dribbling or very quick combination play that branches into a cascade of busy legs.

Great vids, btw. Two great players right there.

 

[Fortitude]

@Synco

I haven't the time to dig and all the articles I've seen are very fluffy rather than the deeply descriptive ones I had read.

I will try and find something when I have time to click, click, click - there must be some better than the first page Google is churning out, but I've no chance to check at the moment.

 

[Synco]

@Synco

I haven't the time to dig and all the articles I've seen are very fluffy rather than the deeply descriptive ones I had read.

I will try and find something when I have time to click, click, click - there must be some better than the first page Google is churning out, but I've no chance to check at the moment.

Hey, no worries & thanks. You and a few others have said some things about Finney I didn't know about, that's enough for me. Certainly makes the player more interesting for me in draft games.

 

[Synco]

Have voted for @harms, I think that team is just too good in terms of tactical coherence & individual class.

But his CF duo has convinced me it would have been good to block a few more GOATs Seeler plus some random dude would still make this an excellent outfit.

 

[harms]

@Synco

I haven't the time to dig and all the articles I've seen are very fluffy rather than the deeply descriptive ones I had read.

I will try and find something when I have time to click, click, click - there must be some better than the first page Google is churning out, but I've no chance to check at the moment.

Not sure if I seen the articles that highlighted his workrate, but he definitely stands out in the comparison to his contemporaries like Matthews and Garrincha in his approach towards the game. Being way more versatile and adjusting his game to his team's needs instead of perfecting just one way of playing, even though he was as huge of a star as it gets (second only to Matthews in England in terms of his stature, although personally I prefer him over Stan).

 

[harms]

Brutal score. The team does look a bit gung-ho though, with the pair of extremely attacking fullbacks (behind 2 actual wingers) and limited cover. An option with a more balanced back 4 that you've mentioned in the OP (with either one of Alves/Marcelo & Bossis on another wing) looked quite cool and, I think, made more sense, since Dzajic doesn't necessarily need an overlapping fullback, but I can't blame you for going all-in on the offensive. Still, attacking-wise it would've been a marvel to watch, surely.

 

[Moby]

Have voted for @harms, I think that team is just too good in terms of tactical coherence & individual class.

But his CF duo has convinced me it would have been good to block a few more GOATs Seeler plus some random dude would still make this an excellent outfit.

It's funny before every draft we cry about having a fresh player pool and then most managers go ahead and pick literally same names every draft.

 

[Fortitude]

Oh well.

Good luck going forward @harms

 

[Joga Bonito]

Extremely harsh scoreline. That was a cracking side @Fortitude . Shame to see it crashing out. The forward line and the midfield were bang on the money. Reckon a more defensively sturdy LB (with Dzajic on the same flank and Alves on the other) and another CB instead of Varane would have been great. I'd have paid good money to watch that side though.

Excellent side from harms as always. Great to see Breitner in that role.

 

[Gio]

Always difficult inheriting a team midway through a draft and even moreso here with Ferguson's shadow looming over the team. Hitting that sweet spot between the differing visions of Himmanv, Fortitude and the great man himself was next to impossible. Without the remake factor as a standalone, it's one of the highest quality sides drafted.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The Himannv feck up I was talking about during the early drafting was not pairing Ronaldo with Romário even though he was available in round 2 and 3.

That would have been a great start building the treble winning side. Can’t find a better upgrade for Yorke Cole.

 

[harms]

The Himannv feck up I was talking about during the early drafting was not pairing Ronaldo with Romário even though he was available in round 2 and 3.

That would have been a great start building the treble winning side. Can’t find a better upgrade for Yorke Cole.

I thought it was about something that he did wrong, rather than didn’t, and it kept me guessing for a while.

 

[Fortitude]

@GodShaveTheQueen I thought that or Rivaldo would have been a given to pair with Ronaldo (I would've gone for Rivaldo for the aerial presence and hold up ala Cantona and Sheringham plus the other factors he brought to the table, but would've been delighted with either).

I am harping on the Ronaldo factor because, for me, he does mess up the team-building for a Fergie side where team was always such a key component over individual - even when C.Ronaldo went into overdrive, we made a team that not only benefited him, but everyone else. I think that's really hard to do with someone who works so well completely independent of the team structure, sure you can put him next to the aforementioned Brazilians, but at his best, it wasn't determinant or defining - it just resulted in beautiful football (Ro-Ro '97 and WC '98).

I am actually very curious to see what @himmanv would've done with the team he was on the way to building, and I hope my 'gripes' aren't misconstrued by him.

@Gio thanks, and I agree it is difficult to take over a team when your vision of what constitutes a Fergie player is different to the original drafters concept - for me, getting a dynamic two-way winger was a priority over Figo, for example, as the latter is not your man at his peak Barcelona days and at Real, he wasn't going to give you break-neck defending nor is he going to go 'at it' in the way Fergie's best wide-men did. I thought getting the flanks right was a priority as I took over the team, which probably left me short in other positions - not keen on Bossis in a Fergie side, either, tbh, which left me with another problem. But again, I was happy to take over the side knowing full well the conflicts I had with it, so that's just how it is.

@Joga Bonito thanks, and I concur regarding Marcelo-Dzajic, but as stated, I was in a bit of a pickle trying to usher another drafter's picks out whilst trying to remain competitive at the back. I wanted someone to emulate Evra in terms of being a tireless offensive threat; initially I was going to put Overath wide left of the midfield to better shore up the flank and at least have one responsible defensive presence there, but in the end, I ventured for a full-on attacking threat because a balanced game brings De Bruyne and Cruyff into my 3rd far too often for my liking with the backline I have.
If I had've gotten through this round, I would have modified the team enough to better emulate Fergie's balance, but it wasn't to be.

As an aside, this was the xi I toyed with


-------Mazzola---------------Ronaldo-------------Finney
----------Overath--
--------------------------Hierro-------Schweinsteiger
Marcelo------------------------------------------------------Alves
------------------------Varane-------------Bossis

But again, the same issue with the flanks as Bossis should be where Alves is and another CB there in the middle.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@Fortitude yea, Rivaldo would have Been great too, but Figo was an ace pick too for me in a Fergie team.

I was thinking he’d go for Baggio and Edwards in round 4 and 5 who were both available. You put any half decent left winger there and the front 6 is done in a perfect Fergie way Without any need for change till the final.

——————Baggio————Ronaldo—————
Czibor——Edwards————Bastian———Figo

Did ping Himmanv around that time after he picked Alves/Marcelo and he did get caught up in some real life stuff by that time.

Loved the Ronaldo pick from the off though. Great choice to build a Fergie team.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@Fortitude

I was also really glad when you picked Finney as I thought you’d deploy him in his scoring peak support striker role, but you did have different plans evidently.

Wanted to play Finney in the below role for ages but never could.

——————————Ronaldo————
—————Finney——————————
Dzajic——xxxx———Bastian——Figo

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The problem with choosing Ferguson is everyone is an expert with preferences. If you pick a unfamiliar manager, you have better chance of getting away with loose tactics.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

That '08 front three was really just 3 roaming forwards with no real sense of positioning.

I'd say something like

Boniek.....Elkjaer......Villa could do that without attempting to recreate Cristiano.

 

[Himannv]

I am actually very curious to see what @himmanv would've done with the team he was on the way to building, and I hope my 'gripes' aren't misconstrued by him.

Apologies for screwing it up for you. I guess I had a different vision. I had something like this in mind:

I screwed up and just couldn't focus enough on this as that was a hellish week for my family. Still recovering.

 

[Himannv]

Just saw the scoreline and I think it's more a case of @harms building a great team to suit his manager than any shortcomings on @Fortitude side. The only one I'm not sure about in their position is Breitner.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I screwed up and just couldn't focus enough on this as that was a hellish week for my family. Still recovering.

I'm sorry to hear that , hang in there.

 

[Fortitude]

@Fortitude

I was also really glad when you picked Finney as I thought you’d deploy him in his scoring peak support striker role, but you did have different plans evidently.

Wanted to play Finney in the below role for ages but never could.

——————————Ronaldo————
—————Finney——————————
Dzajic——xxxx———Bastian——Figo

Going to be honest and say I'm not sure Finney would be bought in that role here as he's such an enigma and even though I had a moment toying with putting him through the middle where he could roam and easily switch positions with Figo (with Figo then playing in midfield), I really needed his qualities wide. He was actually my C.Ronaldo in many ways, both for his versatility and aggression as well as ability to put the ball in the back of the net.

I did want a powerhouse in midfield, but as my priorities were stretched, and I really wanted to focus on the wings, the pickings became too slim to go for - I have, what I consider a couple of exceptional midfielders for that role, but I never see them picked here and I don't know if they're sellable, so I opted out in the end - I needed a couple more rounds of drafting, tbh.

 

[Fortitude]

Apologies for screwing it up for you. I guess I had a different vision. I had something like this in mind:

I screwed up and just couldn't focus enough on this as that was a hellish week for my family. Still recovering.

On any level, you shouldn't be apologizing I took over your team and your incomplete vision and probably went a completely different path than you would've in terms of selections and priorities. For what it's worth, Souness was on my shortlist, but he's not eligible (Scotland NT - Fergie); Dzajic, Kahn and Carvalho would have featured in both our team, so there are some similarities. I wanted a 'Vidic/Stam' but didn't want to compromise speed, so when Campbell got snapped up, I was pretty miffed, but again priorities meant I had to in another direction once the monster CB's were off the board.

It's just a shame you didn't get to play out your side. Anything I say is really by-the-by in terms of the squad.

@harms' midfield duo of Voronin and Breitner seem to be really highly rated here, which I noted in the last draft I was in, so a few of my plans were scuppered having to square up to them, and rather than try and play through them, circumventing and going to the wings is still what I consider the prudent choice.

Anyway, I hope whatever you're going through works itself out and you're back up and running sooner rather than later.

 

[harms]

The only one I'm not sure about in their position is Breitner.

Why, out of interest? He’s one of my most cherished picks in this draft. Neeskens was the ideal choice with the Cruyff link, but after that... I think I had Matthäus in my ideal Lobanovsky’s XI, but that’s it, after those 2 it’s Breitner or no one for that role.

I want to highlight that this is not a number 10 role and it’s very far from it, as I’ve tried to highlight in my write up. I’ll go into more detail in my big Lobanovsky write-up.

 

[Gio]

Apologies for screwing it up for you. I guess I had a different vision. I had something like this in mind:

I screwed up and just couldn't focus enough on this as that was a hellish week for my family. Still recovering.

Cracking 4-4-2 that.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I have, what I consider a couple of exceptional midfielders for that role, but I never see them picked here and I don't know if they're sellable, so I opted out in the end - I needed a couple more rounds of drafting, tbh.

Who were these midfielders btw?

 

[Himannv]

Why, out of interest? He’s one of my most cherished picks in this draft. Neeskens was the ideal choice with the Cruyff link, but after that... I think I had Matthäus in my ideal Lobanovsky’s XI, but that’s it, after those 2 it’s Breitner or no one for that role.

I want to highlight that this is not a number 10 role and it’s very far from it, as I’ve tried to highlight in my write up. I’ll go into more detail in my big Lobanovsky write-up.

Well, that role works like a deeper false 9 for me and I'd expect that player to run into spaces created by the forwards dragging defenders wider. I really like Matthaus in that role and maybe even someone like Lampard. I just never felt Breitner was that kind of player who made those sort of runs.

 

[harms]

Well, that role works like a deeper false 9 for me and I'd expect that player to run into spaces created by the forwards dragging defenders wider. I really like Matthaus in that role and maybe even someone like Lampard. I just never felt Breitner was that kind of player who made those sort of runs.

I can only advice you to watch some more of the midfield Breitner than. The beauty of his partnership with Rummenigge, for example, was that it wasn't only a one-way creater-goalscorer thing, but Rummenigge had often received the ball and pulled out wide, for example, only to make a pass to Breitner, who was rushing into the opponent's box.

Even in this highlights compilation, which is the worst kind of a compilation if you want to highlight player's "boring" goals instead of long-ranged screamers, you can see a bunch of those from 2:17 on:


You don't score 20+ goals per season from midfield without doing those runs, however good your long-distance shooting is.


Not the most competitive game, but you can see the pattern in his play that have always been there. He had scored a hat-trick there by the way.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Brietner was good bringing the ball from the deep. If you were playing 4-3-1-2, it'd fit. I'd like to see KdB positionally ahead of Breitner here.

 

[Raees]

I can only advice you to watch some more of the midfield Breitner than. The beauty of his partnership with Rummenigge, for example, was that it wasn't only a one-way creater-goalscorer thing, but Rummenigge had often received the ball and pulled out wide, for example, only to make a pass to Breitner, who was rushing into the opponent's box.

Even in this highlights compilation, which is the worst kind of a compilation if you want to highlight player's "boring" goals instead of long-ranged screamers, you can see a bunch of those from 2:17 on:


You don't score 20+ goals per season from midfield without doing those runs, however good your long-distance shooting is.


Not the most competitive game, but you can see the pattern in his play that have always been there. He had scored a hat-trick there by the way.

@Himannv would echo Harms. Breitner had great late movement into the box and a strong eye for goal.

 

[harms]

Brietner was good bringing the ball from the deep. If you were playing 4-3-1-2, it'd fit. I'd like to see KdB positionally ahead of Breitner here.

I guess this is on me, but you don, seem to get his role. Lobanovsky’s system is too versatile to capture it with one formation, so I went with the one that I think suits him best, but it can be easily represented as a flat 4-4-2 with the midfield unit of Lerby-Breitner-Voronin-De Bruyne. Kolotov was a box-to-box midfielder, not an attacking one, albeit a good goalscorer; Breitner is the same... but better.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I guess this is on me, but you don, seem to get his role. Lobanovsky’s system is too versatile to capture it with one formation, so I went with the one that I think suits him best, but it can be easily represented as a flat 4-4-2 with the midfield unit of Lerby-Breitner-Voronin-De Bruyne. Kolotov was a box-to-box midfielder, not an attacking one, albeit a good goalscorer; Breitner is the same... but better.

Fair point. I was envisioning someone like Ballack (Leverkusen version) in there.

Was Kolatov a defensive B2B like Keane or Davids? Players like Valderrama, Gerrard, Lampard etc all get classes into same bucket which causes some confusion.

 

[harms]

Fair point. I was envisioning someone like Ballack (Leverkusen version) in there.

Was Kolatov a defensive B2B like Keane or Davids? Players like Valderrama, Gerrard, Lampard etc all get classes into same bucket which causes some confusion.

I wouldn't call him a defensive B2B, no. Gerrard, Matthäus, Breitner, Neeskens — someone of that ilk. Robson is a very good one — equally selfless and eager to win every ball — and then to score with every ball that he had won a moment prior.

I'll translate some of the profiles that Lobanovsky did on his players, although I've probably done that already.

 

[2mufc0]

Breitner is great in this role, me and Theon had him in a similar role in the last draft.