Auction Draft Chaos 2021 QF - Pat Mustard vs Gio

[2mufc0]

Pat Mustard

VS

Gio

Pat Mustard Tactics

Formation: Zona Mista
Tactical Summary: Moderately deep defensive line, relatively direct attacking style. No undue emphasis on possession.

Operating on the assumption that if he can make friends with Fergie then he can forgive me for dropping him for our last match, Kevin Keegan is dramatically catapulted back into our team. In truth, I never really wanted to drop him in the first place, as I've been wooed by the sheer impetus and energy he injected into his teams since I first researched him. He complements the ruthless finisher Shevchenko and the creative maestro Baggio nicely in my attack, and with four Ballon d'Or wins between them there's no shortage of overall quality in that trio either.

Gianluigi Buffon, the best goalkeeper in the draft, comes in to bolster my defence further, and fellow acquisition Bastian Schweinsteiger provides a significant injection of quality in midfield alongside Gio's darling Dave Mackay.

Gio Tactics

• The team is packed with specialists in key positions that make a 3-5-2 work. Marshalling the defence we have a top libero in Sammer in his Ballon D'Or winning role (one of only three defenders to ever win this award), flanked by two physical man-markers well versed in a back 3 system. Bergomi and Gentile are custom-designed for the shape and the task of keeping the opposition forwards in check. On the flanks textbook attacking wing-backs in Cafu and Roberto Carlos replicate their 2002 World Cup winning partnership. Both have pace and technical quality in spades, balancing the team with a constant threat in wide-areas. Each of the back three and the Brazilian wing-backs are in the same systems where they played their best football.

• In midfield double World Cup winner Zito is introduced to provide quality, stability and control. Replicating his dynamic box-to-box role (runner-up in the Ballon d'Or, 1-in-2 goal record for Bayern) Breitner will be given freedom to break forward to exploit his goal scoring strengths. The prodigious talent of Zidane rounds off a balanced midfield unit brimming with physicality, goal-threat and creativity.

• Our front-two provide premium goal-threat as well as hard-graft and high-energy pressing from the front. In a fluid second striker role the non-stop movement of Kempes looks a natural fit roaming across the park, whilst his back-to-back Pichichi credentials speak to his threat in front of goal. Partnering Kempes is Europe’s greatest goal-scorer of all in Gerd Muller. His movement off the ball is arguably the best of all time and is fed from a range of angles - Sammer bouncing one-twos in Beckenbauer-esque style, Breitner's range from midfield, the premier wide service bending in from Cafu and Carlos, along with Zidane's precision in the hole.

 

[2mufc0]

Good luck @Pat_Mustard @Gio

 

[Šjor Bepo]

drops Gazza and draws Sammer, joys of draft serves you right!

Two nice teams, for me games like this are just impossible to judge...

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Third time's the charm @Pat_Mustard . I like this a lot.

Since not much has changed for Gio dynamics wise, I like it as well like I did in the previous game. Would have probably played Bergomi LCB as he does have experience defending on that side.

 

[Gio]

Since not much has changed for Gio dynamics wise, I like it as well like I did in the previous game. Would have probably played Bergomi LCB as he does have experience defending on that side.

Yeah, it's a fair shout. One I mulled over, but eventually decided it was six and half a dozen as both Bergomi and Gentile were comfortable on both sides - particularly in this system. Gentile having played a couple of seasons at left back and generally being deployable to good effect anywhere on the defensive line.

 

[harms]

Third time's the charm @Pat_Mustard . I like this a lot.

Since not much has changed for Gio dynamics wise, I like it as well like I did in the previous game. Would have probably played Bergomi LCB as he does have experience defending on that side.

Same as Gentile — he played a significant amount of games on the left, especially in his earlier seasons.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

For all the big price players, the $50m spent on Buffon might be the best purchase of it all!

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Yeah, it's a fair shout. One I mulled over, but eventually decided it was six and half a dozen as both Bergomi and Gentile were comfortable on both sides - particularly in this system. Gentile having played a couple of seasons at left back and generally being deployable to good effect anywhere on the defensive line.

Same as Gentile — he played a significant amount of games on the left, especially in his earlier seasons.

I was not aware of that. Only remember young Bergomi's job on Kalle

 

[Synco]

Two nice teams, for me games like this are just impossible to judge...

Same for me. Both teams look perfect already.

 

[Gio]

Nothing bad to say about Pat's team whatsoever. In fact all positive - we are similarly built with clean fits all over the place.

I suppose my only observation is that, in a game of such fine margins, the most likely match-winner on the park has to be Gerd Muller - as the sort of player who can sniff out and bury even a half chance. And I know he scored a bazillion goals, but he was the very opposite of a flat-track bully - someone who becomes more decisive as the stakes get higher:

• 1970 World Cup Quarter Final - winning goal
• 1970 World Cup Semi Final - 2 goals
• 1972 Euros Semi Final - 2 goals
• 1972 Euros Final - 2 goals
• 1974 World Cup Semi Final - winner
• 1974 World Cup Final - winner
• 1974 European Cup Final - 2 goals
• 1975 European Cup Final - winner

I don't think any of the contenders for the greatest of all time (can you think of any?) have boasted such an impressive hit rate in the big games as that. Just pure match-winning decisiveness.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Nothing bad to say about Pat's team whatsoever. In fact all positive - we are similarly built with clean fits all over the place.

I suppose my only observation is that, in a game of such fine margins, the most likely match-winner on the park has to be Gerd Muller - as the sort of player who can sniff out and bury even a half chance. And I know he scored a bazillion goals, but he was the very opposite of a flat-track bully - someone who becomes more decisive as the stakes get higher:

• 1970 World Cup Quarter Final - winning goal
• 1970 World Cup Semi Final - 2 goals
• 1972 Euros Semi Final - 2 goals
• 1972 Euros Final - 2 goals
• 1974 World Cup Semi Final - winner
• 1974 World Cup Final - winner
• 1974 European Cup Final - 2 goals
• 1975 European Cup Final - winner

I don't think any of the contenders for the greatest of all time (can you think of any?) have boasted such an impressive hit rate in the big games as that. Just pure match-winning decisiveness.

To be fair the Muller advantage is counter balanced by the Scirea-Buffon pair which is a tier above the Sammer-P'homme pair.

Almost impossible to seperate the teams.

 

[Physiocrat]

Almost impossible to seperate the teams.

Agreed. I can't separate them. Will have a look again in the morning.

 

[Gio]

To be fair the Muller advantage is counter balanced by the Scirea-Buffon pair which is a tier above the Sammer-P'homme pair.

Almost impossible to seperate the teams.

Indeed. Scirea is the top boy. What I would say though is that Sammer is turbocharged in this system. When he moved from midfield to libero, he transformed Dortmund into the best team in Germany, winning the title twice, and then they became the best team in Europe, defeating Juventus in the Champions League Final. He transformed a relatively forgettable German side into European champions as the best player of Euro '96. And then crowned it all off by deservedly becoming one of just three defenders to have won the Ballon D'Or.

Aside from Muller, there are a couple of other areas I'd say are slightly in our favour. Paul Breitner is one of the best midfielders of all time and posseses plenty of attacking threat as a 1-in-2 man at his peak and having scored in two World Cup Finals. Out wide I'd just give the edge to our Brazilian flank dominators to exert some wing control and to stretch the opposition. All margins, as you say, but perhaps 3 or 4 in our favour.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Aside from Muller, there are a couple of other areas I'd say are slightly in our favour. Paul Breitner is one of the best midfielders of all time and posseses plenty of attacking threat as a 1-in-2 man at his peak and having scored in two World Cup Finals. Out wide I'd just give the edge to our Brazilian flank dominators to exert some wing control and to stretch the opposition. All margins, as you say, but perhaps 3 or 4 in our favour.

Yea, if I was forced to vote on this one, Breitner would be the reason. I do feel Zito-Breitner pips Bastian-Mackay by a little bit. Pat really needed to get lucky and get Lothar in that pack.

On the flanks, I would call is a stalemate. Cafu-Carlos the gold standard for your setup while Cabrini-Conti the gold standard for his. Can't better that.

As it stands, voting for you guys purely based on the midfield. Open to switching or calling it a draw based on what Pat has to say. Will check back tomorrow.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Tough to disagree too strongly with that general asssessment @Gio - I stared blankly at my screen for half an hour this morning in the hope of coming up with some substantive angle for my write-up and the debate but it all looks remarkably similar in terms of general team structure, player fit, and overall quality.

I've banged the drum about Muller's big-match pedigree often enough so I'm not inclined to change tack now, but as @GodShaveTheQueen and @Edgar Allan Pillow have mentioned, Buffon looks like a spectacular relative strength in this draft with most of the other proper GOAT candidates in that position remaining unpicked. I'm not sure that I've ever heard his big-match temperament called into question convincingly either; on the contrary his preternatural ability to adapt to the big stage was one of the qualities that marked him from the outset as a likely great:

I heard that your professional debut for Parma saw you face Milan – and Weah, Baggio and Savicevic. Is that right? Were you as confident and vocal then as you are now?
Massimo Robinson, via email

It was a beautiful day, a beautiful experience – the realisation of a dream I’d worked towards for years. And I had a good game. I didn’t let in any goals [the match finished 0-0]. I was confident, and where I wanted to be. Did I have a shout at the defenders? I think so. I hope so. It’s what goalkeepers do.

Similarly, the circumstances of debut for Italy are quite remarkable yet I've rarely seen the story mentioned. It's telling that he supplanted Gio's previous round GK Toldo (one of the most underrated keepers ever IMO) so soon into his career, given the general tendency of Italian managers to privilege experience over potential.

Gianluca Pagliuca was hobbling, heavily. Moments earlier, he had done well to intercept a through ball at the feet of Andrei Kanchelskis but it had come at a cost. The Russian winger had been unable to halt his sprint for the ball, and had collided with Italy’s first-choice goalkeeper as a result. Two of Italy’s medical staff swiftly arrived on the scene to assess the damage. Pagliuca clearly wanted to continue, but his body wouldn’t allow it. He limped away, requiring assistance from the medics who helped him along the by-line. As he departed, his replacement trotted onto the pitch, hurriedly trying to put his gloves on, having clearly been caught off-guard by the situation. That replacement was a 19-year-old Gianluigi Buffon...

...As the teenage goalkeeper took the gloves for the first time for the national team on October 29, 1997, he could hardly have asked for less suitable conditions. The VFB-Arena, home of Dynamo Moscow, was covered in snow, and the heavens had not let up since the game started. The ground staff had worked miracles to make the pitch playable, but with snow continuing to fall, it became evident that this game would be about character and resilience rather than skill and eye-catching football. And the prize at stake, you may ask? Just a place at the 1998 World Cup in France.

Italy have a habit of making things difficult for themselves, and their attempt at qualifying for the last World Cup of the 20th century had been no exception. Placed in a group with England, Poland, Georgia and Moldova, Gli Azzurri had started their campaign with four straight wins under the tutelage of Arrigo Sacchi and Cesare Maldini. This included a 1-0 triumph at Wembley, with Gianfranco Zola netting the decisive goal. Then things went awry. The side faltered with the finish line in sight, drawing their final two away matches against Poland and Georgia. This set up a winner-takes-all clash against the English in Rome, which finished goalless, leaving Italy second in the group, a point behind Glenn Hoddle’s men. A play-off would decide Italy’s fate, and so to Russia they went. Now with almost an hour still on the clock, they had an inexperienced, certainly at this level, keeper in goal, in front of a partisan crowd and in conditions that were more presentable for skiing. If Buffon was not up to it, this was the type of night that could expose his shortcomings.

Buffon may have been nervous, but he didn’t show it. Just ten minutes after coming on, he made his first noteworthy contribution. Russia attacked down the right flank, with the ball cut back to Dmitri Alenichev inside the Italian penalty area. Despite being under some pressure, the midfielder arrowed his shot towards the bottom-left corner. Buffon had to react quickly. He did. Leaping to his left, he clawed the ball behind for a corner. He jumped straight back to his feet, clenching both fists in celebration as if he had scored a goal at the other end. Defender Fabio Cannavaro, earning just his 11th cap for his country, immediately congratulated the shot-stopper, bumping his head against Buffon’s chest. A Russian breakthrough just before half time would have been disastrous for Italy. The team had needed Buffon to step up, and he had delivered at the crucial moment.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Indeed. Scirea is the top boy. What I would say though is that Sammer is turbocharged in this system. When he moved from midfield to libero, he transformed Dortmund into the best team in Germany, winning the title twice, and then they became the best team in Europe, defeating Juventus in the Champions League Final. He transformed a relatively forgettable German side into European champions as the best player of Euro '96. And then crowned it all off by deservedly becoming one of just three defenders to have won the Ballon D'Or.

Aside from Muller, there are a couple of other areas I'd say are slightly in our favour. Paul Breitner is one of the best midfielders of all time and posseses plenty of attacking threat as a 1-in-2 man at his peak and having scored in two World Cup Finals. Out wide I'd just give the edge to our Brazilian flank dominators to exert some wing control and to stretch the opposition. All margins, as you say, but perhaps 3 or 4 in our favour.

I don't really want to touch on Sammer as he made such an indelible impression on me when I was still young during Euro '96. Just a brilliant player. Having said that, Scirea is even more synonymous with the Zona Mista than Sammer is as a monster-calibre libero in a 3-5-2, and looks even more at home to me than Sammer here with Cabrini and Conti in those wide areas. Ferrara looks natural as the stopper in this system, and Djalma surely tops Gentile here as an RCB. As great as your defence looks, this seems even closer to a GOAT lineup in their natural habitat to me, providing voters actually consider keepers at least.

No disputing Breitner's credentials either, athough as so often with midfielders, that still exceptional goalscoring record is diluted a bit when you realise that 33 of his 84 goals for Bayern in that prolific stint were penalties. They still have to be scored, and it's an art in itself, but it does blunt the argument that he'll be the decisive factor a little.

On that note, and as neither of us want to go down the stat route entirely, here is Keegan bursting through the Real Madrid defence in Hamburg's 5-1 European Cup win to claim the penalty for their first goal:


Not an intervention that will ever be credited on transfermarkt or the like, but a crucial game-changing moment that saw Hamburg overturn a 2-0 defecit to win the second leg 5-1.

 

[Himannv]

Both teams work in a similar sort of way I think. Very tough to call.

 

[Himannv]

Keegan has me convinced. I think this is a great setup for him. Voted for Pat.

 

[Synco]

As I already said, both teams are too strong and well-constructed for me to be voted against, and I see no coercive game-deciding advantage on either side.

So just highlighting a few things I like about them:

Gio's offense of Zidane - Kempes - Müller is great, and I find it easy to envision how their playing styles mesh together, augmented by the wingbacks and Breitner. And I think Gio is absolutely right about Müller. I checked the big game record of all time greats some time ago, and I came to the same conlusion. Pele may have a shout as a big game scorer of similar calibre, but that's it. Zito for 20m is among the steals of the draft, easily a final-worthy player for me.

Pat's backline (plus Conti at RW) is a wonderful Serie-A-plus-Djalma theme, and the players are perfect fits individually. (Scirea, Buffon, Djalma pretty much GOAT territory for this setup.) I really like Ferrara and I think it's great that he gets his deserved credits in drafts. Rest of the team looks brilliant too, although Mackay is a player I don't know too much about.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I couldn't bring myself to weaponise @Gio 's own Mackay posts against him @Synco but I'll post them here later when I'm back on my laptop.

 

[Synco]

I couldn't bring myself to weaponise @Gio 's own Mackay posts against him @Synco but I'll post them here later when I'm back on my laptop.

Cheers. I think I have a basic idea from other drafts (including video material), but definitely interested to find out more.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Well played @Gio . Looking forward to see what you do for reinforcements as that team is looking ridiculously complete already. I felt going in that Muller would be decisive, although with zero non-manager votes for hours after the thread went up I was forlornly hoping for an unprecedented 0-0 voting scoreline with Buffon winning it for me .

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Synco here's Gio's Mackay post. I'm just posting the link as the quotes won't appear here if I quote Gio:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/il-fenomeno-draft-r1-moby-vs-gio.454611/post-25535517

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Well played @Gio . Looking forward to see what you do for reinforcements as that team is looking ridiculously complete already. I felt going in that Muller would be decisive, although with zero non-manager votes for hours after the thread went up I was forlornly hoping for an unprecedented 0-0 voting scoreline with Buffon winning it for me .

Well done to you as well. 3 of the toughest draws and in most other permutations, I'd have seen this game as the final.

 

[2mufc0]

Well played @Gio . Looking forward to see what you do for reinforcements as that team is looking ridiculously complete already. I felt going in that Muller would be decisive, although with zero non-manager votes for hours after the thread went up I was forlornly hoping for an unprecedented 0-0 voting scoreline with Buffon winning it for me .

Unlucky Pat, you've drafted brilliantly just really unlucky with the draws.

 

[Synco]

@Synco here's Gio's Mackay post. I'm just posting the link as the quotes won't appear here if I quote Gio:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/il-fenomeno-draft-r1-moby-vs-gio.454611/post-25535517

Thanks, and a great read @Gio. The video is the one saw some time earlier. Mackay and Schweinsteiger should make an excellent midfield duo.

 

[Gio]

Well played @Gio . Looking forward to see what you do for reinforcements as that team is looking ridiculously complete already. I felt going in that Muller would be decisive, although with zero non-manager votes for hours after the thread went up I was forlornly hoping for an unprecedented 0-0 voting scoreline with Buffon winning it for me .

Cheers Pat. To be honest I thought 0-0 was quite possible given the similarities between the sides and the fact you could not criticise (and therefore difficult to vote against) your side. Lovely team where the non-Italian choices were absolutely spot on in terms of their style and mentality - as in you could see Djalma, Mackay, Schweinsteiger and Keegan all being at home in such a set-up.

 

[harms]

And I think Gio is absolutely right about Müller. I checked the big game record of all time greats some time ago, and I came to the same conlusion. Pele may have a shout as a big game scorer of similar calibre, but that's it.

It obviously needs updating for both Messi and Cristiano, but there was a brilliant article/research piece on the matter by The Guardian from 2013:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/feb/06/best-big-game-goalscorer-football-history

Rank	Player	County	Career	Goals	Points
1	Gerd Muller	Germany	1963-1981	16	51
2	Alfredo Di Stefano	Argentina	1945-1966	19	45
3	Pele	Brazil	1956-1977	13	40.5
4	Ferenc Puskas	Hungary	1943-1966	15	40
5	Zinedine Zidane	France	1988-2006	10	33
6	Ronaldo	Brazil	1993-2011	9	32
7	Alberto Spencer	Ecuador	1953-1972	13	27.5
8	Vava	Brazil	1949-1969	6	27
9	Mario Kempes	Argentina	1970-1996	6	24
10	Eusebio	Portugal	1957-1979	9	23

14

Paul Breitner

Germany

1970-1983

6

19.5

 

[Synco]

It obviously needs updating for both Messi and Cristiano, but there was a brilliant article/research piece on the matter by The Guardian from 2013:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/feb/06/best-big-game-goalscorer-football-history

Rank	Player	County	Career	Goals	Points
1	Gerd Muller	Germany	1963-1981	16	51
2	Alfredo Di Stefano	Argentina	1945-1966	19	45
3	Pele	Brazil	1956-1977	13	40.5
4	Ferenc Puskas	Hungary	1943-1966	15	40
5	Zinedine Zidane	France	1988-2006	10	33
6	Ronaldo	Brazil	1993-2011	9	32
7	Alberto Spencer	Ecuador	1953-1972	13	27.5
8	Vava	Brazil	1949-1969	6	27
9	Mario Kempes	Argentina	1970-1996	6	24
10	Eusebio	Portugal	1957-1979	9	23

14

Paul Breitner

Germany

1970-1983

6

19.5

Cheers! I read that article too back then, it's a great source. For the end result, a lot hinges on the point system of course, how much weight it gives to which kind of game. I personally wouldn't have the WC group stages over a EC final, for example. As I remember going through KO/finals records, Pele's goal contributions were the only ones that seemed to at least come close to Müller's in quantity, regularity, and spread across the biggest stages.

But even with that perspective it's my opinion so far that Müller was the greatest goalscorer of all time, hands-down.

 

[harms]

For the end result, a lot hinges on the point system of course, how much weight it gives to which kind of game. I personally wouldn't have the WC group stages over a EC final point-wise, for example.

Yeah, that's an odd one for sure.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Amazing that Di Stefano is still 2nd despite European Cup getting a lower position points wise.

 

[2mufc0]

Muller is incredible. Would be interesting to see an updated list with M & R.

 

[Synco]

Yeah, that's an odd one for sure.

Just checked, I saved the full article back then (link is now dead). WC final group stage means the second group stages of some older tournos, which were in place instead of knockouts. So Müller only got points for his goals against Yugoslavia and Poland 1974, not his other group stage goals.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Jeez, Gio's team was already formidable. Now with all this Muller praise...he's walking away with this draft!

 

[Physiocrat]

Just checked, I saved the full article back then (link is now dead). WC final group stage means the second group stages of some older tournos, which were in place instead of knockouts. So Müller only got points for his goals against Yugoslavia and Poland 1974, not his other group stage goals.

Could you do a points per scoreable game ratio for these players? It would be interesting to see if it changes the ranking at all.

 

[Synco]

Could you do a points per scoreable game ratio for these players? It would be interesting to see if it changes the ranking at all.

Good idea, but I don't think I have the time. I made one for Müller though years ago, for all his knockout games. I can see if I find a way to post it here.

 

[Physiocrat]

Good idea, but I don't think I have the time. I made one for Müller though years ago, for all his knockout games. I can see if I find a way to post it here.

Ah. I thought the article might have listed the scoreable games. Btw I intended to post way more in our thread but work has been crazy

 

[Synco]

Ah. I thought the article might have listed the scoreable games.

I think it's in there, but I'd have to go through the article of every (major) player. Maybe another time, but I post my Müller table in any case.

Btw I intended to post way more in our thread but work has been crazy

No problem my friend, it's just a game. Hope you can find some time to relax soon.

 

[Synco]

It's a bit cryptic and not quite methodical because it was only intended for me. First number in a square is always games, second number goals scored. Added-up sums in the framed squares.

Haven't double-checked the sums, so there may be some calculation errors. Also not sure if I updated the sentences below properly. NT qualifiers in light grey were not added to the sums. In case of any questions, ask the nerd.

Spoiler: Gerd müller knockout game record

Edit: The little asterisks indicate a legit goal that was wrongly disallowed (documented 2x).

 

[Physiocrat]

It's a bit cryptic and not quite methodical because it was only intended for me. First number in a square is always games, second number goals scored. Added-up sums in the framed squares.

Haven't double-checked the sums, so there may be some calculation errors. Also not sure if I updated the sentences below properly. NT qualifiers in light grey were not added to the sums. In case of any questions, ask the nerd.

Spoiler: Gerd müller knockout game record

Edit: The little asterisks indicate a legit goal that was wrongly disallowed (documented 2x).

7 goals in 4 WC/EUROS finals + semis