Auction Draft Chaos 2021 R1 - GSTQ vs Sjor/JB

[2mufc0]

GSTQ

VS

Sjor/JB

GSTQ Tactics

Inspiration for setup - Enigma

Team dedicated to - 2mufc0 (coz MUFC, duh!)

Sorry for the short OP, tested positive for Covid today (really mild), so didn't have time to put any effort into this. But most of it is obvious as feck and hardly needs explanation. We will obviously be playing attacking football as usual with my teams.

Sjor/JB Tactics

Tactics:
Blatantly stolen from Sjor's young padawan.

With the ball:
Counter-attacking style through quality possession - healthy mix of combination football and direct impact on the wings.

Against the ball:
Low block, defend as a unit while allowing Mbappe to "cheat" a bit so we can have him fresh on the counter in a position where he can heart any defender.

Formation:
4-3-3


Players & player roles:

Gianluigi Buffon - GOAT keeper, undervalued in drafts but one of the most important position in real games

Diego Godin - When it comes to a low block defence he is an absolute artist, alongside his partner comfortably the best defender in post Rio era.

Virgil Van Dijk - just an allround brilliant defender, in the era where everything goes against defenders he made it look easy + valuable experience playing alongside someone that loves to go forward

Marcelo - when it comes to attacking from the fullback position he should be the undisputed GOAT, magician and a key player in all modern success of Real Madrid. Should be even better here as he will have a great protection in front which wasnt the case in Madrid.

Dani Alves - Luis Enrique version, wont bomb like a lunatic every attack but will add so much more, fantastic in possession and actually a good defender at that point.

Casemiro - destroyer who is pretty decent on the ball, perfect tactical fit

Luka Modric - technically strong and intelligent allround #8 - balance player, whose job is to serve the team and help to make the midfield tick, but who can also have attacking impact himself

Kevin De Bruyne - at this point im lost of words for this guy, insane engine, great football brain, delivery from any position second to none. Best player in the world currently. Him drifting out right and Alves supporting should allow Mbappe freedom to float and seek the space where he can hurt opposition the most

Franck Ribery - magician and a workhorse in one, whats not to love? Should make a great partnership with Marcelo and really elevate this team to another level

Kylian Mbappe - yet to start shaving and already with a longer peak then a lot of all-time greats. Closest thing we seen to peak Fenomeno - pace, power and skill.

Robert Lewandowski - perfect n9 really - goals, great hold up play, can combine with others and also not dependent on others to create as he can easily create his own chances.


Why we will win:

Even before we go into tactics, player quality etc. - all our players are alive and in best possible shape or at least close to it. Same cant be said for the opposition.

 

[2mufc0]

Good luck @GodShaveTheQueen @Šjor Bepo @Jim Beam

 

[Joga Bonito]

Even before we go into tactics, player quality etc. - all our players are alive and in best possible shape or at least close to it. Same cant be said for the opposition.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

That bit reminded me of an old Bill Shankly quote.

Shankly, after he was asked to compare a leading player of the 1970s to Finney: "Aye, he's as good as Tommy – but then Tommy's nearly 60 now".

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Might not be posting too much, but there are two key strengths of the opposition that I wanted to address -

1. The midfield trio - Its clearly a great combination. But for me it runs into its kryptonite, possibly the greatest all time midfield to counter such a midfield. I think they will struggle to impose themselves on the game when on the ball and find it hard to contain my midfield when we are in possession considering all 3 were brilliant on the ball as well.

2. The right wing - Again, its clearly a great combo. Not just Mbappe and Alves but De Bruyne as well. But I think my left sided axis is actually quite well placed to neutralize it.
(a) Bratseth who was among the fastest defenders can easily match Mbappe for pace and keep up with him.
(b) Abidal can always tuck in as and when required to make it really compact. He did play the CB role quite well too late in his Barcelona career.
..... Should be really handy when Bezsonov goes forward so we are not caught on the counter by Mbappe.
(c) Then there is Giggs to track back and keep up with Alves.
(d) Charlton is another one notorious for his work rate and can help track De Bruyne. I wouldn't want Keane and Robson to drift wide often chasing De Bruyne and getting the midfield disorganized.

I don't see any obvious weaknesses in the opposition ranks, its a quite well constructed team. From a drafting point of view, only issue I can see is it might be tough to add reinforcements while keeping up with the theme. Other than that, although I do want to win, a small part of me wants to see them go ahead too. Most games in this draft have been like that, some really well constructed teams this time around. We usually see some average teams in round 1 (not just personnel wise but tactically), but not the case this time. Everyone seems to be in top form.

 

[Physiocrat]

Both sides are well drafted although I think GSTQ edges it on player quality particularly the Keane, Robson, Giggs, Charlton and Best axis which is of course phenomenal in terms of work rate and creativity. My one concern is Greaves up on his own. From what I have seen of him he looks much more like an SS who liked to play of a main striker consequently I'm a bit dubious of him being a lone-striker.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@GodShaveTheQueen thought you didn't like the 2 B2B combo. Or was that due to Enigma inspiration? Also blatant suck up to draft mod is a

Great team from @Šjor Bepo too. Players all fit the role and tactics.

As Physio says, this may come down to PvP and GSTQ has the edge there.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

My one concern is Greaves up on his own. From what I have seen of him he looks much more like an SS who liked to play of a main striker consequently I'm a bit dubious of him being a lone-striker.

Some good discussion on this subject in the compilation thread recently. You have to look at it from modern football's context. Harms' last comment really sums it up quite well. He will never be short of link ups here though with both Charlton and Best capable of jumping up top, like they did with Law.

So, Jimmy Greaves stars as an inside forward, making 2 assists (and a few great passes, one was simply a genius one, a through-ball with an outside of his foot, that should've ended with a goal as well) and scoring a goal that reminded me of Kaka vs us in 2007, he went through entire United defense like a hot knife through butter.

One thing i know i said is that in both games i watched he didnt play as a striker as he is used in drafts, in both games it was a SS role and from your post, once again he didnt play up top but will give it a watch

Couldn't we make the same case for Law too? Didn't he always play inside forward/ SS behind David Herd?

Would you say Greaves fits that kind of CF role too? The question came up in a PM discussion recently, Sjor has mentioned it above.

I often ask myself where a specific historical forward would fit into a stereotypical 4-3-3 of today - roaming CF, wide forward, attacking CM. (There are of course other forward roles in today's football, thinking of Griezmann and Cristiano, but it's a useful reference.)

I think that a lot of those players would be number 9's today — in those days they were usually the best (or one of the best) ball-playing specialists on the pitch and the general quality of the teams was significantly lower, so it didn't make sense to isolate them in a purely attacking role. Especially in England where there's a tradition of playing a big and strong targetman up front anyway.

Today, with an emphasis in possession and an improved bottom level of their teammates, they would probably be strikers who have an option of dropping deeper & interchange with wingers/midfielders depending on the situation. The difference between Griezmann and, say, Law and Greaves, is that he doesn't have the required qualities to play up front, unless it's a clear false 9 role — and they did. Cristiano is a bit of an odd ball as he's such a unique case — he certainly could play as a traditional centre forward but even in his oldest interpretation of his role he still prefers to roam around a bit too much to be a reference point up front.

 

[Physiocrat]

@GodShaveTheQueen thought you didn't like the 2 B2B combo. Or was that due to Enigma inspiration? Also blatant suck up to draft mod is a

Great team from @Šjor Bepo too. Players all fit the role and tactics.

As Physio says, this may come down to PvP and GSTQ has the edge there.

I think GSTQ is ok with with 2 B2B is you have a hardworking guy in the hole. Also with Best and Giggs on the wings it is serious work rate off the ball. It isn't Zidane, Dzajic and Garrincha

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@GodShaveTheQueen thought you didn't like the 2 B2B combo. Or was that due to Enigma inspiration?

If you put 2 B2B's behind Dzajic, Zidane and Garrincha, obviously I will call it out. Maybe even with a No.10 with good work rate sometimes against a GOAT No.10.

But here, all of Charlton, Giggs and Best will put a shift in. Its a completely different context.

Would it make sense if someone says a Scholes/Keane midfield can never work? You put them along side Cristiano and Mbappe and it probably will fall short off the ball. You put it alongside Giggs and Beckham and it will win you a treble. Context

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I think GSTQ is ok with with 2 B2B is you have a hardworking guy in the hole. Also with Best and Giggs on the wings it is serious work rate off the ball. It isn't Zidane, Dzajic and Garrincha

Holy feck, how did we choose the exact same names. This is unbelievable

 

[Physiocrat]

Interesting quotes @GodShaveTheQueen

I think as a fluid front three Greaves would make sense, although I'm tempted to think he might be best in a David Villa role in a modern system. That said your system is more of a classic 4231 which would be better off with a proper target man up top

 

[Physiocrat]

Holy feck, how did we choose the exact same names. This is unbelievable

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Interesting quotes @GodShaveTheQueen

I think as a fluid front three Greaves would make sense, although I'm tempted to think he might be best in a David Villa role in a modern system. That said your system is more of a classic 4231 which would be better off with a proper target man up top

Well if I did have another orthodox winger on the right, your point is spot on.

But Charlton and Best provide plenty of goals and link up in the final third in the central areas (especially when Best starts from right). There is great potential for interchange IMO.

I am not sure how differently are Law and Greaves looked at. For me, they had a good number of similarities attributes wise.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Also blatant suck up to draft mod is a

To be fait, I spent exactly 2 minutes on the OP. Might as well add something half funny instead of a standard 2 liner about tactics

 

[harms]

It’s quite surprising that Sjor went with low block counter-attacking team, considering how well Modrić, De Bruyne and Ribery fit in the modern pressing game. It certainly would’ve reduced the amount of defending Marcelo/Alves were supposed to do.

 

[Jim Beam]

A bit busy, so I will post some thoughts later.

Hope everything is fine and will remain fine with your health @GodShaveTheQueen. Best of luck here, although am sure you won't need it.

It’s quite surprising that Sjor went with low block counter-attacking team, considering how well Modrić, De Bruyne and Ribery fit in the modern pressing game. It certainly would’ve reduced the amount of defending Marcelo/Alves were supposed to do.

Wouldn't be anything like Atletico Madrid or similiar. Much closer to Zidane's Madrid in big games. Which would obviously suit not just Marcelo, Modrić and Casemiro, but every other player in the team.

 

[Synco]

Beam's team is a mix of elements I'd yet have to be convinced of. He mentioned Zidane's Real, but their FBs weren't exactly the strong point of that formation when forced to defend, especially Marcelo. (That said, Marcelo's & Alves' attacking impact will still be great here.) Godin on the other hand is a player who I feel is at his best in a packed Atletico-like setup. Don't want to overdo that last point, but to me these selections point in different directions to some extent.

 

[Synco]

And GSTQ went all in with expensive dudes + 20m defenders

What works in his favour imo is that lower profile players are usually undervalued in drafts compared to big names. And I do think it's a solid defense that can do a job. But this is of course still the relative disadvantage of his approach, so that's a crucial question for me here. Beam's offensive department is really good.

Leaving aside the Greaves question for now (interested to hear more opinions on that), that midfield and attack is of course stunning.

 

[Synco]

And I hope you get through Covid without much hassle, GSTQ!

 

[Jim Beam]

Beam's team is a mix of elements I'd yet have to be convinced of. He mentioned Zidane's Real, but their FBs weren't exactly the strong point of that formation when forced to defend, especially Marcelo. (That said, Marcelo's & Alves' attacking impact will still be great here.) Godin on the other hand is a player who I feel is at his best in a packed Atletico-like setup. Don't want to overdo that last point, but to me these selections point in different directions to some extent.

I had the same thought about Godin tbf and pointed at it in my first draft match, but then someone (might have even been bepo) simply mentioned Uruguay. Uruguay never defended in the same manner and Godin was still brilliant because he was simply an outstanding defender at his peak.

Going through the team I think it is really well balanced and built with that thought and not about putting the best possible names in there even looking at the modern theme.

- complimentary CB partnership with 1 pure defender and 1 more expansive one;
- midfield 3 with a holder, passer and needle kind of player all having loads of energy and having defined and clear roles on the pitch (which can't be said about opposition imo);
- attacking and technically excellent fullbacks which are mandatory in today's game;
- a nice blend of trickery, speed, and pure killer instinct upfront (one of the wingers being more hardworking providing balance for Marcelo flank, while the other adding more firepower alongside Lewa).

In short, the idea (aside from putting the modern theme) is that you put players in the roles they are most comfortable with and that one piece of the puzzle adds to another. It is nothing groundbreaking in terms of squad building really, but I think it manages to accomplish exactly that.

Tbh, I know we are facing an uphill battle here going with such a theme in an all-time draft and against United legends, but since we are talking about team balance/shape not sure how anyone isn't questioning the other midfield. United legends aside, three pretty much same players running 100 mph with all of them having the same initial thought of penetrating through the lines. Who is attacking, who is holding there? If the answer is, well, they all do a bit of everything, you know you are missing something.

 

[Synco]

I had the same thought about Godin tbf and pointed at it in my first draft match, but then someone (might have even been bepo) simply mentioned Uruguay. Uruguay never defended in the same manner and Godin was still brilliant because he was simply an outstanding defender at his peak.

Going through the team I think it is really well balanced and built with that thought and not about putting the best possible names in there even looking at the modern theme.

- complimentary CB partnership with 1 pure defender and 1 more expansive one;
- midfield 3 with a holder, passer and needle kind of player all having loads of energy and having defined and clear roles on the pitch (which can't be said about opposition imo);
- attacking and technically excellent fullbacks which are mandatory in today's game;
- a nice blend of trickery, speed, and pure killer instinct upfront (one of the wingers being more hardworking providing balance for Marcelo flank, while the other adding more firepower alongside Lewa).

In short, the idea (aside from putting the modern theme) is that you put players in the roles they are most comfortable with and that one piece of the puzzle adds to another. It is nothing groundbreaking in terms of squad building really, but I think it manages to accomplish exactly that.

Tbh, I know we are facing an uphill battle here going with such a theme in an all-time draft and against United legends, but since we are talking about team balance/shape not sure how anyone isn't questioning the other midfield. United legends aside, three pretty much same players running 100 mph with all of them having the same initial thought of penetrating through the lines. Who is attacking, who is holding there? If the answer is, well, they all do a bit of everything, you know you are missing something.

Good to hear the thoughts behind the selection, makes a lot of sense. If you say Godin gets pigeonhold too much, that's also fair. I think my doubts mostly came through the OP presenting Godin as a low block defender and your team as a low block team against the ball - but then Marcelo and Alves seem like a step into the opposite direction in terms of their relative weaknesses (their strengths always fit anywhere). I think I'd be easily convinced of the exact same players in a more proactive style. Containing Best and Giggs is still a huge task of course, regardless of low or higher defense.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Hopefully scrappy wont mind both of us answering given its not going to be a high post game.

Good to hear the thoughts behind the selection, makes a lot of sense. If you say Godin gets pigeonhold too much, that's also fair. I think my doubts mostly came through the OP presenting Godin as a low block defender and your team as a low block team against the ball - but then Marcelo and Alves seem like a step into the opposite direction in terms of their relative weaknesses (their strengths always fit anywhere). I think I'd be easily convinced of the exact same players in a more proactive style. Containing Best and Giggs is still a huge task of course, regardless of low or higher defense.

Its how you want to look at things, why is the opposite direction if you give them more protection and less space to defend? That should suit them.
Also, its a big myth that you need defensive fullbacks for a defensive setup, a lot of great wingbacks actually played their best football in a more defensive system.
Facchetti, Zanetti(would actually be very close in style to Alves from the Lucho era) and Maicon at Inter.
Marcelo in big games for Real Madrid. Even Alves to a point, while Barca never did play defensively they defended much deeper under Lucho then under Pep - Alves benefited a lot from it and IMO played best football in his career.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Hopefully scrappy wont mind both of us answering given its not going to be a high post game.

No problems. Too lazy to type right now but am reading from time to time.

 

[harms]

Also, its a big myth that you need defensive fullbacks for a defensive setup, a lot of great wingbacks actually played their best football in a more defensive system.
Facchetti, Zanetti(would actually be very close in style to Alves from the Lucho era) and Maicon at Inter.
Marcelo in big games for Real Madrid.

It’s not about wingbacks, it’s about Marcelo and Alves. Facchetti, Zanetti and Maicon were brilliant defensively, Marcelo was absolutely not.

It’s like arguing about Messi’s effectiveness in the air by using Seeler as an example.

 

[Synco]

Its how you want to look at things, why is the opposite direction if you give them more protection and less space to defend? That should suit them.
Also, its a big myth that you need defensive fullbacks for a defensive setup, a lot of great wingbacks actually played their best football in a more defensive system.
Facchetti, Zanetti(would actually be very close in style to Alves from the Lucho era) and Maicon at Inter.
Marcelo in big games for Real Madrid. Even Alves to a point, while Barca never did play defensively they defended much deeper under Lucho then under Pep - Alves benefited a lot from it and IMO played best football in his career.

I reckon mostly because they need to defend more in a reactive team, as the opposition has the ball for longer stretches. Some players thrive when getting pressurized, some not so much. In my mind, with Marcelo & Alves (in a back 4) it makes sense to let them be on the ball as much as possible and defend as little as possible. Keeping possession, and/or winning the ball back quickly, not giving the other side too much time on the ball. There are levels to that of course, as Barca's different versions over time have shown. (And I'm also not saying they "can't defend" or something, not into hyperbolic takes like that, just that it doesn't suit them as well as other players.)

But maybe it's just a problem of terms - I'd neither describe MSN Barca or Zidane's Real as low block teams, even if they temporarily defended deep when needed. So perhaps I simply have the wrong idea of what you guys are going for.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

It’s not about wingbacks, it’s about Marcelo and Alves. Facchetti, Zanetti and Maicon were brilliant defensively, Marcelo was absolutely not.

It’s like arguing about Messi’s effectiveness in the air by using Seeler as an example.

Id give you Zanetti and Facchetti(though he is a bit overrated defensive wise). Maicon(and i dont count Bale scandal here as that was post peak version) was no better then Marcelo he just had it much easier given the system.
Though Marcelo shined in the system we wanted to built and in fact here he would have even more protection given he has Ribery in front rather then Ronaldo who didnt exactly kill himself in the defensive phase.

I reckon mostly because they need to defend more in a reactive team, as the opposition has the ball for longer stretches. Some players thrive when getting pressurized, some not so much. In my mind, with Marcelo & Alves (in a back 4) it makes sense to let them be on the ball as much as possible and defend as little as possible. Keeping possession, and/or winning the ball back quickly, not giving the other side too much time on the ball. There are levels to that of course, as Barca's different versions over time have shown. (And I'm also not saying they "can't defend" or something, not into hyperbolic takes like that, just that doesn't suit them as well as other players.)

But maybe it's just a problem of terms - I'd neither describe MSN Barca or Zidane's Real as low block teams, even if they temporarily defended deep when needed. So perhaps I simply have the wrong idea of what you guys are going for.

tbf maybe its a feck up on our end with the low block thing so now everyone imagines 10 players in our box but we just thought its the easiest way to describe it in as little words as possible.

 

[Synco]

tbf maybe its a feck up on our end with the low block thing so now everyone imagines 10 players in our box but we just thought its the easiest way to describe it in as little words as possible.

Yeah, increasingly got this impression as the discussion went on. And that clarification is fine with me, as you mentioned quality possession and my team's style in the OP, so it's not a 180 or something.

 

[Gio]

Wouldn't be anything like Atletico Madrid or similiar. Much closer to Zidane's Madrid in big games. Which would obviously suit not just Marcelo, Modrić and Casemiro, but every other player in the team.

Can see those tactics fitting this group of players well. Godin has shown enough for me to be comfortable with a line from anywhere to deep to average. Lovely midfield and the left flank of Marcelo and Ribery really chimes. I like the compactness you get from the modern systems and you could see that midfield exerting control when their team needs to relieve the pressure.

Still I think GSTQ was my 2nd ranked team. The centre-halves fit quite well in their physicality and aerial prowess to the more muscular forward play of Lewandowski (strikers playing for the wrong teams here imo), while Abidal's pace gives him a fighting chance against Mbappe. At the other end, Best against Marcelo looks dicey, although I rate Van Dijk's covering abilities there very highly given his experience in a similar system (only a small handful who are proven to be clearly superior defending those high left-sided spaces). On the other side Giggs and Alves looks like a score draw.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

but since we are talking about team balance/shape not sure how anyone isn't questioning the other midfield. United legends aside, three pretty much same players running 100 mph with all of them having the same initial thought of penetrating through the lines

I am sorry mate, but this might be the most ridiculous statement made in all of round 1 games combined.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Maicon(and i dont count Bale scandal here as that was post peak version) was no better then Marcelo he just had it much easier given the system.

Not sure about that. I rate Maicon quite highly defensively and I know a few others do too (@Enigma_87 for one)

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

And GSTQ went all in with expensive dudes + 20m defenders

There are quite a few good low value players in the pool actually. I was really lucky of course to get Abidal and Bezsonov for 20 each. I thought both would be raised.

Ruggeri is someone you can take to the final, just need to get a high profile partner if possible for him. While I rate Bratseth higher than most others, I do think a more shiny bane might help votes wise. If he is against Van Basten though, I'd bench anyone.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Godin on the other hand is a player who I feel is at his best in a packed Atletico-like setup

I used to have this impression but I think he would do well in any counter attacking team. A partner like Van Dijk and Casemiro ahead is a really nice setup for him I think.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

It’s like arguing about Messi’s effectiveness in the air by using Seeler as an example.

Man, while your point is almost always spot on, the way you put it can hurt like a punch

 

[Synco]

There are quite a few good low value players in the pool actually. I was really lucky of course to get Abidal and Bezsonov for 20 each. I thought both would be raised.

Ruggeri is someone you can take to the final, just need to get a high profile partner if possible for him. While I rate Bratseth higher than most others, I do think a more shiny bane might help votes wise. If he is against Van Basten though, I'd bench anyone.

Don't disagree, and the paragraph below that sentence was supposed to say approximately this.

 

[Jim Beam]

I am sorry mate, but this might be the most ridiculous statement made in all of round 1 games combined.

Sure mate

 

[Enigma_87]

Not sure about that. I rate Maicon quite highly defensively and I know a few others do too (@Enigma_87 for one)

Aye, Bale destroyed his reputation in couple of games, but IMO it happened when he was already on the wane and the physical aspect of his game was always important to his overall game. At his peak he was excellent in both phases of the game. One of Inter's most important players. Same goes for Dani Alves, who he also kept outside his favorite position in the NT.

Great team btw, especially given the cheap "filler" players. You struck gold with Greaves at 30m.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Great team btw, especially given the cheap "filler" players. You struck gold with Greaves at 30m.

Thanks mate.

On Greaves, yea, got lucky there. Wanted to get Law, but they robbed him while I was asleep.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

A good game with a lot of good discussion as usual @Šjor Bepo @Jim Beam

Not sure everyone realizes that this was not a 700 mn but a 600 mn team with Seeler (80mn) left on the bench.

A marquee name like Cristiano to round up that modern squad would have taken you guys to the finals IMO.

 

[Gio]

Aye, Bale destroyed his reputation in couple of games, but IMO it happened when he was already on the wane and the physical aspect of his game was always important to his overall game. At his peak he was excellent in both phases of the game. One of Inter's most important players. Same goes for Dani Alves, who he also kept outside his favorite position in the NT.

Great team btw, especially given the cheap "filler" players. You struck gold with Greaves at 30m.

Aye. I'd say that's an important point about Maicon and Bale. Those demolitions happened slightly past his peak and, around that time, he was generally less solid across the board.