Auction Draft: Round 1 - GSTQ vs. Arbitrium

Who will win this match


  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .

Indnyc

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GSTQ vs. Arbitrium

vs.


Tactics GSTQ

Style of play: Quick counter attacking football. Build from the back when not counter attacking with the idea of pacing things up in the final third.

Team: Can be broadly divided into 4 areas

1. The defense : Franco Baresi marshals the defense with Ferri and Ferrara alongside him. During the late 80's and early 90's, Italy had amazing riches when it came to the CB department. You had Baresi, Ferri, Bergomi, Ferrara and Vierchovod all good enough starters at the highest level. The most preferred choice of course was Ferri-Baresi-Bergomi. Ferrara usually took up the place of Bergomi when the chances arrived. More importantly, all 5 of them played so much with each other just at the national level irrespective of being in different clubs that the chemistry and understanding between them would be tremendous. I will do a more detailed post later, but Italy's defensive stats during those few years were amazing. The best one of course being from the 1990 WC where they conceded only 1 goal before getting knocked out on penalties in the semis. But the stats even before and after that were phenomenal.

2. The wing backs : Standard all rounded attacking wing backs that a 3-5-/5-3-2 demands. Both were excellent going forward and respectable defensively.

3. The midfielders : Two box to box engines in Jean Tigana and Rainer Bonhof. Both were excellent off the ball and had good engines going forward. Stylistically, the perfect choices for the formation.

4. The attack : The best and the simplest part really. Zico the attacking playmaker with tonnes of goals in him. Ronaldo and Mbappe the forwards with so much pace and skill to drag players wherever they wish and leave them dead all over the pitch. Not only are they great scorers, they are very good creators as well. When the 2 primary scorers love to create and stretch as well and your primary playmaker loves to score as well, the resulting outcome will be amazing. Both Ronaldo and Mbappe are instructed to exploit the space left behind the opposition's attack minded fullbacks/wingbacks on the counters.

Tactics Arbitrium


Initial input

This is not a Barcelona remake. Whilst some elements of their fantastic sides between 2008-2014 are present and will be utilized, the team as a whole functions somewhat differently. The main difference here is Mario Coluna, who has been trusted with a box-to-box role and will be expected to link up with Eusebio to the same level of effectiveness that Messi will with Dani Alves.

I expect to have a fair amount of possession in this game and to fully utilize the triangle approach. On either side of the pitch - and through the middle - There are players who have all demonstrated their ability to play quick, sharp passing and keep the opposition chasing the ball. There are so many different combinations for give and go's, and I expect David Silva to be in his absolute element here, with a front 3 ahead of him that will push the defence back and allow him the space to operate in the areas he is most effective in.

Thoughts on the opposition

Tuppet has put together a great team that is exceptionally solid through the middle and being honest, i would expect to lose this game. My front line is pretty devastating, when you consider that Messi Suarez and Neymar is the most prolific front 3 of all time in a single season, then you add Eusebio into the mix, it should be unstoppable. But I wont be hypocritical and suggest that The better defenders on his team stand more chance of dealing with the threat than the defenders of the past decade. Contrast that to his front line and the defence I have then i can see the clear gulf.

Closing thoughts

I've always maintained in drafts that proven chemistry has to count for something. The entire back line know how each other play and will be at their best. Individually, they have all had excellent defensive games against some of the best attackers this century. The midfield 3 is a combination of everything that makes a midfield great with the only missing ingredient being an aggressive ball winner but the 3 together are more than capable of forming an impressive all round unit.

I genuinely think its easier to see how my team functions as opposed to the opposition, but i'll leave that for the voters to decide.
 

Deleted member 101472

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Ronaldo and mbappe :drool:

I think Ramos is smart enough to handle mbappe, the only time he’s really been outdone by sheer pace is Robben at the 2014 World Cup, he’s an otherwise intelligent centre half who people rarely breeze by. Diego Godin is probably the modern centre half you’d want up against Ronaldo.

Think when I have the ball you’ll find it very difficult to get it back.
 

willhse456

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Wow GSTQ's attack would frighten any defence. Especially one that contains Alves and Alba, both known more for their attacking than defending.
 

Deleted member 101472

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If my video gets me just one vote here I’ll be happy. I think I can effect the game well enough with the quality I have on the ball, and I think my right hand side of Messi and Alves with Coluna/eusebio/David Silva getting involved will yield something for me.

But Baresi is there, and as someone who puts him as the greatest defender ever, yeah it’s just easier to see GSTQ getting the breakthrough than it is me.
 

sincher

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Had a think. Changed my vote. GSTQ's boys are gonna get roasted on the flanks.
 

Deleted member 101472

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Also a man who just turned 20 in an all time draft, with only a handful of good games against great opposition, surely has to count against GSTQ.
 

Deleted member 101472

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Feck the more I look at it, the more I struggle to see GSTQ attack functioning.

Mbappe and Ronaldo are too similar to get the best from both. Mbappe has never played in a 2 up top so it’s difficult to review him here, and Ronaldo is seen as a one man army who to my knowledge, never played with a 10 like Zico behind him. It’s not hard to picture what it looks like when it works, but there’s still questions over the functionality. My front 3 is absolutely nailed on to be effective, even against Baresi, only the support coming there way in the form of Coluna, Alba and Alves is familiar and doesn’t take any imagination at all to see it working, because it did and it does.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Sorry about the delay in joining @Arbitrium
Forgot its Valentine's and the missus is not pleased

Also, an excellent video. Looks really original and we should make them more often in draft games.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I've always maintained in drafts that proven chemistry has to count for something. The entire back line know how each other play and will be at their best.
Firstly, I think most people would call out Ramos, Alba, Alves and the DM Ocwirk against the opposition they are facing.

But I think the biggest misfit in your defense is your best defender on the pitch, Diego Godin.

While I would be stupid to not rate him highly enough, your team is an uber attacking team with very little defensive prowess be it in defensive midfield or in defense.

That is the exact opposite of the setup where Godin peaked in and has made his name as one of the best defenders of the generation.

This setup and the Atletico Madrid setup are probably as opposite as they get. He is someone you would want to build a defensive fortress around, not someone who would be one of the last man standing back to prevent counters against those stars.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I've always maintained in drafts that proven chemistry has to count for something.
1. The defense : Franco Baresi marshals the defense with Ferri and Ferrara alongside him. During the late 80's and early 90's, Italy had amazing riches when it came to the CB department. You had Baresi, Ferri, Bergomi, Ferrara and Vierchovod all good enough starters at the highest level. The most preferred choice of course was Ferri-Baresi-Bergomi. Ferrara usually took up the place of Bergomi when the chances arrived. More importantly, all 5 of them played so much with each other just at the national level irrespective of being in different clubs that the chemistry and understanding between them would be tremendous. I will do a more detailed post later, but Italy's defensive stats during those few years were amazing. The best one of course being from the 1990 WC where they conceded only 1 goal before getting knocked out on penalties in the semis. But the stats even before and after that were phenomenal.
Regarding the chemistry in defense part you mention
 

Deleted member 101472

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Regarding the chemistry in defense part you mention
Your team has some, my team has more.

Regarding Godin and Ramos, it’s a simple instruction really (and to Alves and Alba) to be conservative and not push the line too high given the obvious threat. The idea is that my side can play in so many different ways and Alba and Alves can pick and choose when to get involved. With no winger for them to worry about, they’ll not get isolated defensively and instead should be able to tuck in enough and help out. That might leave a tad amount of space for your wing backs, but im not particularly concerned about their offensive output especially since any cross into the box will be won by Ramos or Godin, without exception really.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Regarding Godin and Ramos, it’s a simple instruction really (and to Alves and Alba) to be conservative and not push the line too high given the obvious threat. The idea is that my side can play in so many different ways and Alba and Alves can pick and choose when to get involved
That is not how they play in real life. Its like saying I will ask Alves to become Cafu for a day.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Think when I have the ball you’ll find it very difficult to get it back.
I dont honestly expect or want to have 50-50 possession stats. I'd be happy hitting you on the counter.

There can only be 2 reasons you think that I cant win the ball back:

1. You think you have a numbers advantage in midfield which you dont. So that logic doesnt work.

2. Only other logic is you dont rate Tigana and Bonhof as capable of winning the ball back from players who are not anywhere near the GOAT tier. I can't help it if you dont rate them. All I can do is call it bullshit.

Also, I don't know how much you have watched Coluna, but he is not one around whom I'd build a team to keep the ball. He'd be in the heart of a team which pushes forward ruthlessly trying to transition to attack and getting ball into the final third as soon as possible.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Had a think. Changed my vote. GSTQ's boys are gonna get roasted on the flanks.
Why? Because, its a 3-5-2?

Firstly, he has 2 forwards who will always tend to cut in. That plays straight into the 3-5-2 tactic.

If there are overlaps and doubling up, how the 3-5-2 works is one man tracks the overlapper (my wing back) and one man takes care of the inverted forward (my wide CB)

Also, do be fair and let me know what you think of my attack against his defence and DM :)
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Also a man who just turned 20 in an all time draft, with only a handful of good games against great opposition, surely has to count against GSTQ
Well, you make him sound like Rashford.

He has done it at the biggest stage of them all in the world cup. Something none of your forwards have done.

He is the only teenage player after Pele to score in a world cup.

Sure, no one think he has reached his absolute peak, that will be a monster of a different level. But just because he is 20, doesn't make him any less of an amazing player at this point.

How many players have the balls to go into their first WC as a teenager, show no nerves whatsoever and kickass?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Mbappe and Ronaldo are too similar to get the best from both.
Like Ronaldo and Romario? Yea, I cant see that working :lol:

Mbappe has never played in a 2 up top so it’s difficult to review him here
Quite obviously you dont watch him at all apart from the odd big UCL game here and there. After Neymar got injured, he and Cavani have been playing upfront as a strike pair.
 

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Well, you make him sound like Rashford.

He has done it at the biggest stage of them all in the world cup. Something none of your forwards have done.

He is the only teenage player after Pele to score in a world cup.

Sure, no one think he has reached his absolute peak, that will be a monster of a different level. But just because he is 20, doesn't make him any less of an amazing player at this point.

How many players have the balls to go into their first WC as a teenager, show no nerves whatsoever and kickass?
I hope people vote against you for using the words “kickass”

Apologies to the draft community at once
 

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Like Ronaldo and Romario? Yea, I cant see that working :lol:



Quite obviously you dont watch him at all apart from the odd big UCL game here and there. After Neymar got injured, he and Cavani have been playing upfront as a strike pair.
Can you point to the 352 where Ronaldo and Romario had success with a number 10 in behind them?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Ronaldo is seen as a one man army who to my knowledge, never played with a 10 like Zico behind him.
Right, his partnetship with Ronaldinho in 2002 and a more closer comparision in Zidane at Madrid was an absolute shambles.

I am sorry mate, that whole post is kind of crap.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Can you point to the 352 where Ronaldo and Romario had success with a number 10 in behind them?
So you expect it to be an exact replica for every player on the pitch for them to be rated?

And Rivaldo/Ronaldo with Ronaldinho behind doesn't ring any bells to you?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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The idea is that my side can play in so many different ways and Alba and Alves can pick and choose when to get involved. With no winger for them to worry about, they’ll not get isolated defensively and instead should be able to tuck in enough and help out
So now you expect Alves and Alba to tuck in and help out?

I see that we are moving them from the Cafu/Breitner roles a few minutes back to the Krol/Gentile role midway during various phases of the game.
 

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So you expect it to be an exact replica for every player on the pitch for them to be rated?

And Rivaldo/Ronaldo with Ronaldinho behind doesn't ring any bells to you?
Oh so you’re using the slower version of Ronaldo who didn’t exploit space in the channels? And mbappe is on the left now?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Oh so you’re using the slower version of Ronaldo who didn’t exploit space in the channels? And mbappe is on the left now?
What sort of logic and post is that? Are you saying Ronaldo 1998 woudn't have worked in 2002? And he could only play on the right in that setup?

Sigh, I can't respond to that mate.

Also, with no neutral involvement till now, this bores me to death no matter who leads/wins if there is no justification or reason for votes.

I'll rejoin the discussion when some neutrals or sensible posts show up.
 

Deleted member 101472

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What sort of logic and post is that? Are you saying Ronaldo 1998 woudn't have worked in 2002? And he could only play on the right in that setup?

Sigh, I can't respond to that mate.

Also, with no neutral involvement till now, this bores me to death no matter who leads/wins if there is no justification or reason for votes.

I'll rejoin the discussion when some neutrals or sensible posts show up.
feel free to make some sensible ones of your own. you cant reference an attacking trio which bears no resemblance to the one youve tried to create then not expect to be called out on it. RRR is nothing like RMZ
 

Deleted member 101472

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@Joga Bonito

Just once can you comment in a thread please. Seems like you’ve voted against me every time I’ve played and made a grand total of zero contributions.

@Moby has done the same vote wise but at least occasionally gets involved.
 

Deleted member 101472

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Here is ID managers amazing write up of Ocwirk basically showcasing why he’ll be so effective in this game.

And hence, I present the Captain of the team - Ernst Ocwirk - in more detail.



System he played in back then:

In the older days, players who took the field had on the jersey numbers from one to eleven.

Even if the "method" as it was referred to back in the day when Ocwirk was playing is long gone , it is easier to explain how it was played in the early post-war period using these numbers.

The so-called "method" consisted of the two medians (nos. 4 and 6), who marked the opposing wings, placed wide and higher than the backs (nos. 2 and 3), who were more narrow and backward.

It is easy to deduce that moving back the two medians on the line of the full-backs came the four-man defense in the years that came afterwards.

The number five, "centromediano metodista", term used by the old chroniclers, had the task of organizing the game both in defense and in attack.

In other words, he was the one who would then be called "director".

Ernst Ocwirk was perhaps the greatest "Central Methodist"

The great Austrian team of 50's was one of the few teams still playing in what was effectively still a pre war style. Two full backs (centre backs), a defensively minded centre-half, flanked by two half backs and five forwards


Positional and functional flexibility of Ocwirk:

Ocwirk played in his career in 2-3-5 and 3-2-5 formations, where both the distribution from the back, as well as containing the opposing storm had to be organized by one player, even though they were two very different roles, played by the same central anchor.

At the World Cup in 1954 Ocwirk was the central anchor in the 2-3-5, ahead of Hanappi and Happel as two very strong center-backs and alongside half-runners Koller on the left and Barschandt on the right.

Ocwirk intelligently secured the advances of his teammates, mostly occupying the center in front of the two defenders with the off-ball half-runners out wide on the same axis. He occasionally moved forward himself.

Interestingly, Ocwirk not only built and secured the game from the back, but was also a box-to-box player. Again and again there were long-range advances, with which he generated presence in the last third.

However, it is important to note that there were no solo runs, but more nudging moves from the depths when open spaces for rebounds, long range shots and the need for extra attackers when the opposition fell off presented themselves.

Ocwirk was considered not only a highly intelligent game designer, but also as an extremely strong header and strong-shooting midfielder.

Ocwirk's great strength was the recognition of various situation and acting upon them as needed.
In numerous combinations of the then Austrian team, it was especially Koller on the left, who advanced on the wide side, while Ocwirk gallantly moved into the resulting rooms left behind, secured the area and offered a route to fall back if the attackers were pressed off the ball.

This was followed by distance shots, individual dribbles with subsequent vertical passes and beautiful diagonal balls against the opposing defense line.

If Koller successfully made his runs and beat his man, for example, Ocwirk moved from the back with force in the direction of the penalty area.

He was not only able to open rooms for the strikers ahead, but profited from the enormous amount of attackers who already occupied the area and needed to be marked leaving him free.

In addition, when working against the ball it was common for Ocwirk to form a tight, flat triangle with the two defenders. Hanappi and Happel.

The triangle turned and blocked the opponent's options on the ball centrally. The two half-runners were allowed to act significantly more free due to this rigidness.

Hanappi especially had a great partnership with Ocwirk. Hanappi always had the option to bring the ball out out flexibly. Ocwirk blocked the middle and the ball-playing center-back was able to move forward.


Ocwirk today?

In the early fifties he was the best midfielder in the world, lost almost no ball thanks to his ball control and physique, distributed it strategically with intelligent long balls and thanks to his extreme game intelligence and physical nature, played both the offensive and defensive roles with almost no error.

It is always hard to guess about the suitability of previous players in today's world.
Of course, not a single one could keep up with today's sprint machines purely from the physical point of view, also the technical-tactical know-how has improved enormously.

On the assumption that Ocwirk had maintained his playing character and his relative technical and physical quality in the time comparison, he would have become a midfield great of the modern times.

Most likely you could call it a mix of Michael Carrick, Sergio Busquets and Yaya Touré, if you want to choose 21st century modern footballers for comparison.

His passing game and his pressing resistance in today's football are more suitable for the deeper zones, where he would also have fit in well with his defensive style of play.

Even in those years Ocwirk embodied an ideal that is still sought today (and now more than ever), which was put well by a great Austrian writer back then:

"He is the soul of the team, combines the highest game intelligence and grace with precision and economy of power. His game represents the only practicable application of the collective principle, the only successful balance between individual and community, in which the whole idea of the team game accumulates. " - Friedrich Torberg in the Viennese Kurier, 1954[/QUOTE]
 

2mufc0

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R9 vs Ramos, red card waiting to happen.

But Messi vs Ferrara doesn't look to good for GSTQ either, will follow discussions.
 

2mufc0

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Also @Arbitrium midfield looks a bit light against that powerhouse midfield of Bonhof and Tigana (thanks GSTQ for nicking them from me) .
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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R9 vs Ramos, red card waiting to happen.

But Messi vs Ferrara doesn't look to good for GSTQ either, will follow discussions.
It's Messi vs Ferri mate. Ferri was adept at playing the LCB role alongside Baresi.
 

Deleted member 101472

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Also @Arbitrium midfield looks a bit light against that powerhouse midfield of Bonhof and Tigana (thanks GSTQ for nicking them from me) .
Midfields being light isn’t an issue when they have the ability on the ball. And the ability of my full backs and front 3 to get involved and create triangles essentially means their strength becomes redundant. You can’t tackle what you can’t get near.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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R9 vs Ramos, red card waiting to happen.

But Messi vs Ferrara doesn't look to good for GSTQ either, will follow discussions.
Also would like to hear what you don't rate about Ferrara.

If you don't rate just the player, I won't argue that.

But if it's the wide role you don't rate, I could provide a justification for why he is good there and has played the same role alongside the same players. A basic gyst is already in the OP
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 101472

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Messi and Alves, probably the best right side ever, against Branco and Ferri.

Bloodbath. They’ll toy with them.

Ramos and Godin as as good a modern partnership as you’ll find. Ramos is one of the most decorated defenders in history and Godin one of the best stoppers of the past 20 years. It works fine.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Can't see past Zico feeding Ronaldo and Mbappe.:drool: