Auction-Trade Madness Draft - QF: crappy/Indnyc vs 2mufc0/Theon

[idmanager]

Wonder if this would have won a few more or less votes.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yeah absolutely, he’s tried to implement a version of the 3-4-3 at Barca, City (and I wanna say Bayern?). I think similar to Cruyff it’s the formation Pep probably considers the purest representation of his philosophy.

Though his 4-1-4-1 he has now is fantastic imo. I think tactically it’s such a wonderful side.

Yeah he tried it with Lahm at DM at Bayern(and of course Xabi). Wasn't wildly successful away from home especially in Europe which spelled the end of him, but to me the reason was the overall approach and stubbornness in those games rather than tactical approach.

Still, as good as his City team is playing at the moment, I doubt they will carry it on next season. It's a system that requires a lot of his players and both mentally and physically exhausting.

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

To be fair 3-4-3 is very hard to pull and very fragile system if not all players are on the same wavelength. Cruyff's philosophy was making the pitch small, press and also make those triangles all over the pitch where a more proactive and energetic approach all over the pitch would mean working a lot on and off the ball with high energy.


- His Barca team depended on the build up from deep where he had not only Koeman but also Guardiola who started the possession from the back whereas Koeman was usually the one distributing long balls to the wing.
- as a LCM in that 3-4-3 and without a proper LB to support if the team faced a proper wing back or a winger he could prove to be a liability given the team mechanics(playing 3 at the back) and also him lacking a bit of pace and dynamism when covering that side.

A good explanation of the 3-4-3 by Cruyff himself:

Notice the #4 role (Haan here) and how Cruyff explains that he shouldn't be allowed to leave the center circle at all. You'd need a highly dynamic B2B on that side, instead of van Hanegem when playing in a 3-4-3 and without a proper LB support, otherwise a winger/wing back could easily stretch him and Montero.

You've named some of my favourite aspects of this formation and Cruijff's style.

What you said about Van Hanegem as a liability when facing sides with a winger or wingback is something I find really interesting about this formation both under Cruijff and Van Gaal. For example, if you watch the full match from which I selected the clips for that video I (tried to) linked in my previous comment, Seedorf played in that left half position. Compared to Cruijff's system, the team as a whole fell back and compacted more than Cruijff's version. Under Van Gaal this meant Rijkaard dropped back to cb, with essentially a midfield block of the two halfs ahead of him. As you say though, this type of compacting and stretching vertically, and as Cruijff would argue, means you're defending and having to work over much larger areas of the pitch.

Alternatively, and what Cruijff discusses is rather than the back of the diamond falling back as a centreback, the halves were expected to track opposition runs on the wing.

Offensively though, referring back to that Ajax match, Van Gaal's halves did something similar but reversed in that they came to collect the ball from the 3 centrebacks at wing-back areas and from there either carried the ball forward and towards the centre, or looked for the pass to the central "kapstok" (player at tip of diamond who plays as a target with back to the goal: Bakero as a midfielder under Cruijff, Kanu as a striker in Van Gaal's system).

This is different to Cruijff's idea of the outer centrebacks as ex-wingers capable of who make wide runs forward in possession. As I said in my previous comment, this contrasts with Van Gaal's use of ball playing centrebacks who pass from wide areas around the halfway line,

I also thought Cruijff's explanation that playing long passers centrally allowed them to reach either wing over the same distance was great, and for that reason I didn't understand Pochettino's decision to play Sanchez as the central centreback between Vertonghen and Alderweireld in the first half of the season. Alderweireld's crosspass is the strongest of the three, and Vertonghen and Sanchez' strengths lie in their ability to carry the ball forward. (besides, Sanchez' strength lies in his aggressive forward defending, whereas he's suspect in his ability to defend towards his goal, which was his main duty as the covering cb in that system)

Also, I'd like to use this thread to mention my severe ongoing annoyance that there seem to be zero full match recordings of Ajax managed by Cruijff.

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

Yeah I get the point and have previously emphasised the dynamism in potential side midfielders for a diamond (Gattuso / Davids being the templates I had in mind there) although this is slightly different given the presence of wide forwards.

I'm just not sure I agree with the problem given 1. Van Hanegem was a huge asset defensively (albeit not quick he made a load of tackles) 2. The Dutch defended as a unit and they pressed a team (which mitigates the lack of pace) 3. Significant part of his best football came from the left hand channel.

I think I can see the potential for your XI as more of a counter-side in this set-up, but it would be a compact and more retracted system, with Van Hanegem and Haan staying back more, and Gullit's power and athleticism being used to carry the ball on the transition to the attacking trio.


This shows the power in his bursts forward

 

[Gio]

Hmm, can't make my mind up on whether I agree with that. Van Hanegem was certainly industrious enough in terms of pressing and tackling for the role and did a lot of his best work in the left channel in '74. He was certainly never quick off the mark but his mentality and physical strength made him an effective presser out of possession.

The part that is giving me pause is just how much of that was enabled by Krol (who obviously provides way more width than Montero).

For Van Hanegem off the ball you want to make the pitch small to play to his strengths and compensate for his weaknesses. Agree that Krol would help.

 

[Indnyc]

Wonder if this would have won a few more or less votes.

We did contemplate this formation.. I don’t think it would have mattered.. Irwin still is out of place there

 

[idmanager]

We did contemplate this formation.. I don’t think it would have mattered.. Irwin still is out of place there

In a back 4? Maybe not.