Auction-Trade Madness Draft - QF: Raees/Invictus vs Skizzo

[Skizzo]

Sammer barreling forward will likely create holes for Nordahl and Pelé to exploit. One feature of both Germany and Dortmund was the presence of a harsh marker to block the opposition #10 or drop into defense as Sammer surged forward - Dieter Eilts for Germany and Lambert for Dortmund. Toninho will likely have to contend with Masopust, so that should create room for Rivera to exploit - and there were precious few who could carve a defense open like Rivera.

Well it’s not a box to box role he’s playing where it’s all game. You’re well aware of his ability to play the role outlined and know he won’t be a liability or leave the team with gaping holes.

Rivera won’t be tracking his runs when they do happen, so either Masopust picks him up or Vidal. If they do, it leaves Coluna or Cerezo available to hold the space vacated. If they don’t, he has a free run into the attacking third where Zico awaits his presence.

 

[Skizzo]

And just to reiterate, Nordahl can exploit Gentile in the air, especially with Kaltz providing the crosses:

And while it’s not our main focus, both my forwards can exploit your center backs in the air, as both are renowned for it.

Insert goal stats of Seeler for Hamburg and Germany/Law for United here.

Pele isn’t an unknown quantity. We’re aware of the danger he possesses, which is why I highlighted our defensive setup to limit him getting the ball. With Cerezo and Sammer on Rivera and Masopust, he’s not going to be getting as much service as he’d like. While he won’t be starved of possession, he won’t be in a team that’s dominating, and have to start dropping deeper to get the ball.

 

[Invictus]

Well it’s not a box to box role he’s playing where it’s all game. You’re well aware of his ability to play the role outlined and know he won’t be a liability or leave the team with gaping holes.

Rivera won’t be tracking his runs when they do happen, so either Masopust picks him up or Vidal. If they do, it leaves Coluna or Cerezo available to hold the space vacated. If they don’t, he has a free run into the attacking third where Zico awaits his presence.

The primary point is that Sammer's ability to make runs from the deep isn't going to be a consistent factor in this game when you consider the Rivera-Pelé-Nordahl trio vs Sammer-Chiellini-Gentile. Yes, he can time his runs - but given the absence of a spare as a tactical blanket (which he had with Germany and Dortmund at his peak), Sammer's offensive influence will be severely curtailed. It's not about being a liability per se, but a numbers battle.

e.g.

Zidane’s movement placed Lambert and Sousa in his cover shadow and the presence of the midfield 3-chain behind him ensured all forward passes were covered. As a result of the 3-chain holding a defensive line at all times the sixes, Sousa and Lambert, had significantly reduced space to operate in. This, coupled with the tendency that they (along with the wing-backs) had to play along the same horizontal line, completely destroyed the possibility of opening spaces and angles necessary for ball circulation and combinations.

 

[Skizzo]

The primary point is that Sammer's ability to make runs from the deep isn't going to be a consistent factor in this game when you consider the Rivera-Pelé-Nordahl trio vs Sammer-Chiellini-Gentile. Yes, he can time his runs - but given the absence of a spare as a tactical blanket (which he had with Germany and Dortmund at his peak), Sammer's offensive influence will be severely curtailed. It's not about being a liability per se, but a numbers battle.

e.g.

I didn’t say it was a primary route, but you’re well aware of his abilities. In a game of fine margins, it doesn’t hurt to expand on Sammer’s ability to effect a game on both ends

 

[Invictus]

And while it’s not our main focus, both my forwards can exploit your center backs in the air, as both are renowned for it.

Insert goal stats of Seeler for Hamburg and Germany/Law for United here.

Pele isn’t an unknown quantity. We’re aware of the danger he possesses, which is why I highlighted our defensive setup to limit him getting the ball. With Cerezo and Sammer on Rivera and Masopust, he’s not going to be getting as much service as he’d like. While he won’t be starved of possession, he won’t be in a team that’s dominating, and have to start dropping deeper to get the ball.

Hmm...I was just pointing it out since the neutral narrative was based on Chumpitaz vs. Seeler from the get go without explicitly considering Gentile vs. Nordahl in a similar light. That's all there was to it. As for not getting as much ball as he'd like, that's really disingenuous because we could say the same for Vidal on Coluna and Zito on Zico - not to mention Masopust chipping in with a bit of leg-work from time to time - which should limit the service to Seeler and Law. The midfield region will definitely be flooded for both teams.

 

[Skizzo]

Hmm...I was just pointing it out since the neutral narrative was based on Chumpitaz vs. Seeler from the get go without explicitly considering Gentile vs. Nordahl in a similar light. That's all there was to it. As for not getting as much ball as he'd like, that's really disingenuous because we could say the same for Vidal on Coluna and Zito on Zico - not to mention Masopust chipping in with a bit of leg-work from time to time. The midfield region will definitely be flooded for both teams.

Well that’s the benefit of Zico being deeper to start with, and having two technical and mobile forwards ahead of him. Zito is more about positioning and reading of the game than harrying and harassing on the ball, which would lead me and my biased opinion to think he’d influence the game more

I agree with the flooding through
It’s basically two diamonds squaring Off with the both midfields and forwards liking to be on the ball. Would be quite fun to watch it all play out.

 

[Invictus]

Well that’s the benefit of Zico being deeper to start with, and having two technical and mobile forwards ahead of him. Zito is more about positioning and reading of the game than harrying and harassing on the ball, which would lead me and my biased opinion to think he’d influence the game more

I agree with the flooding through
It’s basically two diamonds squaring Off with the both midfields and forwards liking to be on the ball. Would be quite fun to watch it all play out.

To be fair, Zito was more than just reading and positioning - which might sound hypocritical and self-serving because I myself have argued otherwise in the past, but I've kinda re-calibrated my opinion of him after putting him under the lens. Covering Zico will be hard no doubt, but Zito is well placed to certainly limit him to an extent - though I'm biased in favor of my team, so it should obviously be taken with a grain of salt.

And yeah, really annoying that both teams are set up in a similar way, aside from a couple of wrinkles here and down as regards specificity and individual roles. Reckon we'd both get more joy vs. different opposition - maybe even the one Chumpitaz was specifically picked for.

 

[Skizzo]

To be fair, Zito was more than just reading and positioning - which might sound hypocritical and self-serving because I myself have argued otherwise in the past, but I've kinda re-calibrated my opinion of him after putting him under the lens. Covering Zico will be hard no doubt, but Zito is well placed to certainly limit him to an extent - though I'm biased in favor of my team, so it should obviously be taken with a grain of salt.

And yeah, really annoying that both teams are set up in a similar way, aside from a couple of wrinkles here and down as regards specificity and individual roles. Reckon we'd both get more joy vs. different opposition - maybe even the one Chumpitaz was specifically picked for.

Aye the matchmaking was a little unkind in that regard

Dodged Diego, got Pelé.

 

[Skizzo]

Heading off to bed. Good luck for the rest of this @Invictus @Raees

Gonna tag a few others that I haven’t seen around to come discuss and such. Don’t mind me

@Ecstatic @Theon @Balu @antohan @Annahnomoss @Mciahel Goodman @BeforeKeanetherewasRobson

 

[2mufc0]

WAS PELE THE MOST COMPLETE ATTACKER OF ALL TIME?

How does one determine what makes a player complete? or in this instance an attacker complete?

In the overall sense, one would easily make reference to someone like Di Stefano who was able to participate in the defensive phase of the game in addition to the build up (midfield) phase and the attacking phase but when limiting it to the question of the most dangerous and complete operator in the final third.. it becomes tougher - which players could claim to have mastered the following arts or possess the following attributes:

• Long-range shooting (curl, power)
• Long-range passing (spreading play, crossing)
• Press resistance/possession play under pressure (decision-making)
• Heading
• Set-Pieces
• Controlling the build up (control of tempo)
• Killer passes in the final third
• Finishing (bicycle kicks, lobs, volleys, chips, megs, standard)
• Dribbling (body feints, tricks)
• First touch/Hold up play (flick ons, chest, one touch play)
• Movement off the ball/Timing of runs
• Pace, Power and Agility
• Ambidextrous

Shortlist for most complete attacker:

1. Messi
2. C. Ronaldo
3. R9
4. Cruyff
5. Pele
6. Van Basten
7. Di Stefano
8. Zico
9. Maradona
10. Puskas
11. Eusebio

So a rough shortlist of some very complete forwards (included Zico, because on closer inspection - seems to be an incredibly complete player who was not your typical 10 but a super productive forward in equal measure). Now grading these players 1-10 at each attribute is a very subjective exercise, so to avoid that.. I will just discuss if certain players were able/unable to demonstrate mastery of a particular ability and compare how many areas of attack this list of footballers could master.

Long-range shooting

Now, alot of players on that list have obviously scored a range of long-distance goals but I would argue R9, Cruyff, Van Basten can instantly be ruled out as evidence of their long-range prowess isn't as pronounced as the others. Some like Zico who clearly had great set piece ability and could score from range tended to choose not to and majority of his goals result from dribbles into box/being a fox in the box.. so for me from open play Eusebio, Messi stand out.. with the former having a cannon of shot off either foot and Cristiano is also a great threat from range (though his efficiency is questionable). Pele for me is right up there, and I'd have him just behind Messi and alongside Eusebio. Lets not forget his attempt from the halfway line too.



Long-range passing (spreading play,crossing)

An area for me where Pele falls short. His style of play just didn't incorporate long range passing/crossing, as he preferred shorter passes for quick-fired combination play. In this category, Messi, Maradona, Zico reign supreme though crossing wise - for the outside of the foot, I'd probably give it to Cruyff and CR7 is underrated in this respect too.

Press resistance/possession play under pressure (decision-making)

Whilst you'd expect all of these footballers to be A* at this, for me R9, CR7 and Eusebio fall slightly short here. Sort of footballers who were prone to losing the ball under pressure due to the high octane nature of their game and the sheer directness of their play. The rest are as gold standard as it gets, supremely intelligent footballers under pressure.

Heading

Cristiano, Van Basten are real stand outs from this list and everyone else falls short (though Messi makes a decent fist of it to be fair) but Pele absolutely matches them in this regard and is recognised as one of the GOAT headers in the game, some brazillians would argue the greatest leap ever.





Set-Pieces

Now Zico stands out as probably the best of all time, but in terms of ruling players out.. R9, Van basten can certainly be as they're not renowned for free-kick brilliance. Pele is criminally underrated for his set-piece prowess. He is 5th on all time list of set-pieces scored (70+ free-kicks scored during his career) Whilst he didn't possess the sublime grace of a Zico in this regard, he was a threat from a variety of ranges due to his sheer power and accuracy.. mastering the lace knuckleball technique 50 years ago..but also capable of the more deft 'falling-leaf' technique from closer range too.


Controlling the build up (control of tempo)

Whilst I wouldn't place Pele at the top of the list in this regard alongside the likes of Maradona/Di Stefano/Cruyff, he definitely had the ability to control a tempo of a game and was a ball-magnet. He had a playmakers mindset in the final third, in contrast to CR7, R9 and knew when to accelerate or slow a game down in the final third which kept opponents guessing as to when he'd go for the kill.


Killer passes in the final third

Pele was an absolute master in this regard.. Jairzinho goal in 1970 as well as Carlos Alberto goal in the final. Two iconic assists in the same tournament which have stood the test of time and they were just the tip of the iceberg. Once again the same culprits probably come up short, CR7 for example is very average IMO when it comes to killer passes. Whilst this is a highly contested category, for me Pele has the perfect blend of insane imagination, flair technique and efficiency of execution to reign supreme in this category.


Finishing (bicycle kicks, lobs, volleys, chips, megs, standard)



Now that is just one aspect of finishing, but it is fair to say with a reputed 1000 goals to his name.. Pele has to go down as one of if not the most versatile finisher of all time. I'd have him alongside Zico, Van Basten and Messi as my favourite finishers in that list of players.. any situation in the box, they have all the tricks in the locker to make the ball land in the back of the net.. But the first two and Pele - could also do it with either foot effortlessly.

Dribbling (body feints, tricks)

In football you tend to get guys who either excel at the classical lace dribbling, with slaloming runs and use of body swerves to weave through opponents or you get guys who are the 5* skill masters and like to embarrass and confuse opponents with their street skills. Very rarely do you find a guy who possesses a blend of both.. Dinho in his prime perhaps, Maradona to an extent but for me Pele in his prime combined all the best attributes you want as a dribbler.. both simple, yet superfluous and entertaining in equal measure. He could body swerve with the best, yet he was a pioneer in bringing street skills.. that Brazilian magic to the big stage.


First touch/Hold up play (flick ons, chest, one touch play)

Now this is where guys like Cruyff, Pele, Eusebio and Di Stefano distinguish themselves from Messi, Maradona and Zico. They could hold the ball up as good as your best strikers, and play with a man up behind them as well as win tough physical encounters by outmuscling opponents not just out-thinking them. For example, the way Messi regularly got snuffed out by sides like Chelsea.. I can't see that happening to Pele, who eventually proved he could dominate a physical defensive side for example Italy in 1970. His first touch was simply sublime and allied to his athleticism made him virtually unstoppable at times.


Movement off the ball/Timing of runs

We have recently seen from CR7 just how important this attribute is. He is a GOAT footballer in this regard. For me Pele's performances in the 1970 World Cup were reminiscent of recent Cristiano performances, in that he knew his body wasn't the powerhouse it once was but through his sheer ability to read the attacking third, and the ability to time runs and pick up space.. he was an incredible goal threat. The way he times this run and makes the goalkeeper look silly.. iconic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UzRsvCsC4c

Pace, Power and Agility

The original Ronaldo is probably the greatest force of nature the game has ever seen, and the two portuguese powerhouses Ronaldo and Eusebio were also fine physical specimens.. but Pele is right up there and IMO with his superior sense of balance/agility, arguably eclipses all of them as the perfect footballing specimen from a physical perspective. That is what gave him that God-like quality which transcends the likes of Messi/Maradona.. they seem like demi-gods, the most gifted humans ever due to their diminutive stature and mortal nature, whereas Pele is truly divine in that sense. He just seems to have it all.



Ambidextrous

Messi, Maradona, Puskas and probably Cruyff (who had a penchant for preferring the outside of the foot) probably fall short when compared to the others in this regard. Pele dare I say it, is arguably one of the most ambidextrous player in history, he has zero hesitation in unleashing shots with his weaker foot (bit like Cristiano) which is incredible considering he's from the 60's. He was like Bobby Charlton in this respect and even in his other videos, he doesn't hesitate to play killer passes with the weaker foot either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGiLXL0RmRY

SUMMARY

I'd say long range passing aside, Pele pretty much nails every other aspect of being an elite attacker. I wish I'd seen more of Di Stefano in his physical prime to see if he can also be a real competitor, I'd say Messi is an outstanding challenger despite his physical deficiencies and lack of a top tier right foot but O Rei do Futebol is truly the indisputed king for me.

This is one of the best draft posts i've seen around here. good effort, well done.

 

[idmanager]

This is one of the best draft posts i've seen around here. good effort, well done.

Second that. Almost changed my vote after reading it.

 

[Gio]

Some gems in that post @Raees. Interested in this:

Set-Pieces

Now Zico stands out as probably the best of all time, but in terms of ruling players out.. R9, Van basten can certainly be as they're not renowned for free-kick brilliance. Pele is criminally underrated for his set-piece prowess. He is 5th on all time list of set-pieces scored (70+ free-kicks scored during his career) Whilst he didn't possess the sublime grace of a Zico in this regard, he was a threat from a variety of ranges due to his sheer power and accuracy.. mastering the lace knuckleball technique 50 years ago..but also capable of the more deft 'falling-leaf' technique from closer range too.

Does such a list exist? Fair play if someone has done the research, but surely it's not very comprehensive? It's always odd how we have the detailed data from opta and others in the last 15 years or so, measuring some largely pointless indicators, while the historical data on the likes of free-kicks are almost non-existent. Even trying to figure out how many players from the 90s and 00s scored during their career is nearly impossible.

 

[Raees]

Some gems in that post @Raees. Interested in this:


Does such a list exist? Fair play if someone has done the research, but surely it's not very comprehensive? It's always odd how we have the detailed data from opta and others in the last 15 years or so, measuring some largely pointless indicators, while the historical data on the likes of free-kicks are almost non-existent. Even trying to figure out how many players from the 90s and 00s scored during their career is nearly impossible.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/top-free-kick-takers-of-all-time.1980801/

Not sure mate, but this is where the source is from.. mad bastards trying their best to research FK history of the greats.

Thanks @idmanager @2mufc0 - first time I've ever had Pele in a side, and whilst I am a die-hard Diego fan, win/lose or draw wanted to take the opportunity to analyse Pele in depth (staying up at midnight was worth it!) and am stunned by how talented he was. The greatest of all time is always a slightly subjective debate but the most gifted attacking talent of all time? no competition IMO.

 

[2mufc0]

http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/top-free-kick-takers-of-all-time.1980801/

Not sure mate, but this is where the source is from.. mad bastards trying their best to research FK history of the greats.

Thanks @idmanager @2mufc0 - first time I've ever had Pele in a side, and whilst I am a die-hard Diego fan, win/lose or draw wanted to take the opportunity to analyse Pele in depth (staying up at midnight was worth it!) and am stunned by how talented he was. The greatest of all time is always a slightly subjective debate but the most gifted attacking talent of all time? no competition IMO.

He's the GOAT for me mate.

 

[Raees]

He's the GOAT for me mate.

Probably for me too now if I take personal bias out of it, though I still don't want to commit to it just yet.

Heading off to bed. Good luck for the rest of this @Invictus @Raees

Gonna tag a few others that I haven’t seen around to come discuss and such. Don’t mind me

Thanks and unlucky mate, for most of the game it was extremely tight and you've been one of my favourite teams through the entire process (though I sorely missed Dzajic/Finney in your lineup!).

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Holy feck. After going head to head, looks like @Raees / @Invictus did an Usain Bolt and cruised to victory. Hard luck @Skizzo !

 

[Skizzo]

Probably for me too now if I take personal bias out of it, though I still don't want to commit to it just yet.



Thanks and unlucky mate, for most of the game it was extremely tight and you've been one of my favourite teams through the entire process (though I sorely missed Dzajic/Finney in your lineup!).

Congrats mate! No shame in losing to that team, and as others said, great contributions from you and @Invictus as always

The muppet in me had too much fun chopping and changing the side, it was like a draft within a draft

 

[harms]

---------Seeler-----------
Charlton----Zico--Finney

Is probably my favorite attacking unit out of the tons that I've assembled in those drafts. So I was heartbroken when @Skizzo sold Finney

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@Raees

With regards Pele, what would you say the standard of the Brazilian league was? Pound for pound, in those days would it have been akin to what La Liga/premier league/bunseliga/series A are now? It’s one stick that always gets used to bash him but given Brazil’s success as a nation during peles career, I just tell myself that the Brazilian league was the best in the world.

I feel as time goes by, he is sliding down a lot of lists as the greatest ever (or maybe just it isn’t as popular to speak about him anymore) but the stats are truly mind boggling (before you even start watching footage). Almost a goal a game average from 694 domestic appearances is stunning, when he wasn’t even an out and out striker. 77 goals in 92 games during his countries most successful decade or so too, staggering.

 

[Raees]

@Raees

With regards Pele, what would you say the standard of the Brazilian league was? Pound for pound, in those days would it have been akin to what La Liga/premier league/bunseliga/series A are now? It’s one stick that always gets used to bash him but given Brazil’s success as a nation during peles career, I just tell myself that the Brazilian league was the best in the world.

I feel as time goes by, he is sliding down a lot of lists as the greatest ever (or maybe just it isn’t as popular to speak about him anymore) but the stats are truly mind boggling (before you even start watching footage). Almost a goal a game average from 694 domestic appearances is stunning, when he wasn’t even an out and out striker. 77 goals in 92 games during his countries most successful decade or so too, staggering.

Current leagues are more cosmopolitan and the european competitions, obviously have the creme de le creme of world football.. so they have that in their favour, however on the downside, certain countries well most that is apart from the english.. haemorrhage a great deal of their players through diaspora and thus the Spanish league outside of the top two.. is weaker whereas if the league was more homogenised, imagine the entire spain squad being based in La Liga and the likes of Fabregas/Mata who can't play for top two.. having to play for third place/fourth. Or Ligue 1, and PSG being predominantly french but the second XI also having guys like Griezmann and Dembele, third and fourth place having a great range of home grown talent at their disposal too.

Now apply that same thinking to Brazil.. probably the greatest production factory on earth and at their absolute pomp, keeping all of their best players in house and in one league. Imagine, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Carlos, Cafu etc all plying their trade in one league but also competing against the best tier two Brazil players too - it would be a pretty tough league to compete in due to the sheer depth of talent they produce. Due to the lack of television exposure, we would only get to know the very elite of that pool of talent i.e. the guys who feature at the world cup.

During Pele's time.. the lineups of some teams were as follows:

Their competitors Botofogo had Nilton Santos, Didi, Zagallo, Garrincha in their side and by 1961/62 they also added Gerson and Jairzinho to the set up .. so a supremely strong competitor. Now obviously the other names in the lineup, we aren't going to know much about and assume they're crap but obviously these guys were coming through at the same time as some of the GOAT footballers.. Djalma was playing at clubs like Palmeiras (who incidentally also had Vava).

 

[Physiocrat]

@Raees

Great Pele work there. Those vids gave me a greater appreciation of him. I didn't realise he was that good at free kicks

 

[Raees]

@Raees

Great Pele work there. Those vids gave me a greater appreciation of him. I didn't realise he was that good at free kicks

Thanks mate.. my own personal favourite video was this one (but doesn't show up due to amount of media I put in that post.. so hope no one overlooked it. What a weaker foot... it really distinguishes him from say Messi/Maradona and Cruyff to name but a few..)

 

[harms]

@Raees

Great Pele work there. Those vids gave me a greater appreciation of him. I didn't realise he was that good at free kicks

That's the thing, isn't it — the guy was fantastic at literally everything. Really an unbelievable talent — and I agree with Raees that he's probably the most complete attacking talent of all time.

 

[Physiocrat]

That's the thing, isn't it — the guy was fantastic at literally everything. Really an unbelievable talent — and I agree with Raees that he's probably the most complete attacking talent of all time.

I tend to agree although I think I'd put Di Stefano as the most complete player overall.