Auction-Trade Madness Draft - R1: Skizzo vs Onenil

With players at career peak, who will win this match?

  • Team Skizzo

    Votes: 15 55.6%
  • Team Onenil

    Votes: 12 44.4%

  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .

Skizzo

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Just want to briefly add that Rensenbrink was the Cup Winners Cup all time leading scorer with 25 goals and Lato was teh WC74 leading scorer with 7 goals and has 45 in 100 matches all time for Poland (10 goals and 7 assists in 20 WC matches overall)!
With Falcão and Mendieta making runs to support the attack and both known to score key big game goals, the pairing of Gentile-Chiellini is just overmatched and overworked.
On the other end we have Don Elias Figueroa to marshal our defense.
So we really want to talk about a defense being overmatched and overworked? You’re expecting Maicon and Pessotto to stop Dzajic (144 in 361) and Finney (187 in 433, and 30 in 76 for England)...both of who are renowned for being able to beat a man, and also supply teammates with crosses and assists? That’s not even taking into account Zico’s influence because your plan to stop him is to hold the ball? The players you have are no more built to hold possession than any other 433. You don’t have some Barcelona style set up to starve a team of the ball, your whole argument is based upon having an extra person in midfield? That hardly means you’ll keep Zico off the ball long enough to not tear your defense apart. More on him incoming.

On top of that, you have Mendieta trying to cull Coluna. The same Mario Coluna who was a dominant part of the wonderful Benfica side that won so much. The same Mario Coluna that helped Portugal to a 3rd place finish at the World Cup. The same Mario Coluna who was voted into the World XI 4 years running. Mendieta was a good player, but he’s outclassed here by a wide margin.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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So we really want to talk about a defense being overmatched and overworked? You’re expecting Maicon and Pessotto to stop Dzajic (144 in 361) and Finney (187 in 433, and 30 in 76 for England)...both of who are renowned for being able to beat a man, and also supply teammates with crosses and assists? That’s not even taking into account Zico’s influence because your plan to stop him is to hold the ball? The players you have are no more built to hold possession than any other 433. You don’t have some Barcelona style set up to starve a team of the ball, your whole argument is based upon having an extra person in midfield? That hardly means you’ll keep Zico off the ball long enough to not tear your defense apart. More on him incoming.

On top of that, you have Mendieta trying to cull Coluna. The same Mario Coluna who was a dominant part of the wonderful Benfica side that won so much. The same Mario Coluna that helped Portugal to a 3rd place finish at the World Cup. The same Mario Coluna who was voted into the World XI 4 years running. Mendieta was a good player, but he’s outclassed here by a wide margin.
First you won't be controlling the possession and dictating the pace because I maintain the midfield advantgae.
Second Coluna was more playmaker not any kind of defensive monster so if you expect him to help out with Lato then Mendieta and/or Falcao are running through the center with no one marking them. That is easy goals for us. In no way does Coluna outclass Mendieta in Mendieta's peak that is just absurd hyperbole that deserves no further mention.
Third Rensenbrink and Lato are just as much a mismatch against your full backs as your two, especially Dzajic who is not a good match for Zico's style. Pessotto and Maicon in their peaks are both stronger defensively than your FBs.
Fourth, Chiellini-Gentile is just about the weakest CB pairing in a back-4 I have ever seen in a draft. Its really not a synergistic pairing with each other or the side in general (asking the free man marking specialist Gentile to play a modern zonal CB role is just a disaster waiting to happen really).
 

Skizzo

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Mauro Silva



If one were to award a prize for the single most under-rated football player in the world, Mauro Silva of Deportivo la Coruña would have to be a strong contender. For most fans everywhere outside Spain and his native Brazil, he is more than underrated, he is virtually unknown.

An everpresent for Brazil during their successful world cup campaign in '94, Mauro Silva went on to win 58 caps for his country. A midfield anchor man known for his positional play and tactical awareness, he was also very technically gifted and skillful. He represented Deportivo La Coruna for 13 years, during which time he was undoubtedly one of the teams most important players, eventually winning La Liga after many near misses.

One may state with conviction that if Arsenal manage to get the better of Mauro Silva in this week's Champions' League match against Deportivo at Highbury they will come out the winners. Should Vieira, Pires or Henry or anyone else doubt that Mauro – as he is known – is the key man for a team who have beaten Manchester United twice this season and who swept aside Juventus 10 days ago, let them ask their French team-mate Zidane, or Figo, or Raul, or any other of the superstars who play for Deportivo's most recent victims, Real Madrid.

They will say – should they have recovered the power of speech after the massive blow Deportivo inflicted on their morale – that, supremely skilled as they themselves might be, they were eclipsed by the Brazilian; that they threw everything they had at Deportivo in Wednesday's Spanish Cup final but that every move foundered on the rock that was Mauro Silva.

To play the most expensive collection of talent ever assembled – in a cup final, at the Bernabeu, on the very day of Real's 100th anniversary, before the king and queen of Spain, is quite a thing.

For a team with next to no reputation in the game, representing a fishing town of barely 250,000 people, to have gone out and beaten Real – a fair and square 2-1 victory – in a game that meant so much to the legendary Madrid club and their tens of millions of supporters worldwide represented a feat that some in the Spanish press compared to Uruguay's victory against Brazil in the 1950 World Cup final at Rio's Maracana.

Call it the mother of all spoilt parties; call it, as one Spanish paper did, a savage act of profanity. Whatever. It was a massive game. The kind of game that provides the ultimate test of a player's mettle, both as a footballer and as a man. The best player on the pitch, the lion king of the Bernabeu, was Mauro Silva.

Who is Mauro Silva and where, for that matter, does he play? Mauro Silva is the Roy Keane of Deportivo. He plays in the same position as Keane, in midfield just in front of the defence. But he is a more dignified version of the Irishman, a strong but silent type, a player who rises to the big occasion, a man of iron when nerves fray. A family man, about as far removed from the spoilt-brat type as one can imagine, he is a player who leads by mature example. Intelligent but self-effacing off the pitch, he is several steps ahead of most other players on it. If he is an excellent reader of the game in defence, it is also because, at 34 years old, he has been around.

The surprise is that none of the giants of Europe have sought to prise him away from north-west Spain, his home for the last 10 years. Because it is not as if he were some kind of late developer. He won the World Cup in 1994, and he was no bit player. He not only played in every game Brazil played, he started every time and was only substituted once.

He has since won the Spanish league and now the Spanish Cup. What remains is the European Cup. Or perhaps even the goal Deportivo players said they were gunning for in the euphoria of Wednesday's game at the Bernabeu: the big Treble, the one only Manchester United have ever won. Three other teams are competing with Deportivo for that singular achievement, and all three of them, remarkably enough, are in the Spanish side'sChampions' League group: Arsenal, Juventus and Bayer Leverkusen.

Deportivo are the only team with one trophy already in the bag. And since that one, given the nature of the opposition and the magnitude of the game, was as tough as any of the others are likely to be, the prospect of one of the least glamorous teams in Europe repeating the achievement of the fabled Manchester United no longer seems as improbable as it might have done. Should they do so, raise a glass to Mauro Silva, a man who gives the impression that nothing would please him less than to play for one of the flashy clubs. For the quiet Brazilian is the living, breathing spirit of Deportivo – a team whose mighty successes so far, never mind what glories the future may hold, send a message to the whole of the football World
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Gaizka Mendieta (not outclassed by some playmaker named like a salad)

TheseFootballTimes said:
After a successful spell with Fiorentina, Claudio Ranieri was the man tasked with bringing stability and progress to the Mestalla after Valdano’s removal. The Italian immediately set about mending the cracks in the Valencian defence, adding steel to his team of silken artisans.

Mendieta was moved to the middle of the field alongside Javier Farinós and Luis Milla, the latter of whom had just signed from Real Madrid among many other important players. With his midfield partners acting as anchors, Mendieta was given licence to roam forward by Ranieri, in a tactical switch that would start the club and player on the road to European glory.

The 1997/98 season would be a disappointment for the team, who climbed from the relegation places to a mediocre ninth-place finish. For Mendieta, though, it was a year where he finally established himself as one of the countries’ most promising players. Ten goals in 30 games was the result of a fantastic campaign, but it was at the San Mamés where Europe caught its first real glimpse of his potential.

Receiving the ball outside the box, Mendieta burst away from the sliding challenge of one Bilbao defender, before a quick feint to shoot on his right. Another feint on his left sent a second defender skidding across the turf, before a cool finish was slotted past Imanol Exteberria and into the net. As applause began to ripple through La Catedral it was becoming clear that we were in the presence of an ethereal talent.

Ranieri summed up the wonderment of all observers when he stated: “I can only compare that goal to Maradona.” It was no surprise that Mendieta was given the armband of a club for whom he was quickly becoming irreplaceable.

Ranieri would remain as coach the following year, in a campaign where Valencia would dilly-ding their way to a first trophy in two decades. An inspired run in the Copa del Rey saw them topple Barcelona and Real Madrid, including a 6-0 hammering of Los Merengues at the Mestalla, earning a place in the final against Atlético Madrid.

On a moonlit evening in Seville, Valencia put on a footballing masterclass, overwhelming the Madrileños courtesy of two goals from Claudio López. But it was Mendieta’s goal in between those strikes that would live long in the memory.

Receiving Adrian Ilie’s hopeful cross with his back to goal, Mendieta chested the ball whilst spinning in mid-air, killing it dead with a deft touch off his knee. In the blink of an eye, the ball was flicked over two hapless Atlético defenders before a left-footed strike was buried past José Molina. It remains one of the greatest goals ever scored on any football pitch.

Spain were out, but Mendieta’s stellar performances for club and country resulted in him being voted the best midfielder in Europe that year. He had already been voted the joint best player in the country alongside Raúl, and both were rewards for a season of unparalleled excellence. Mendieta, however, was focused on the new campaign, and a chance to right some wrongs in the Champions League.

Valencia began by topping a group containing Lyon, Olympiacos and Heerenveen, before advancing to face Manchester United, Panathinaikos and Sturm Graz. Three wins and three draws set up a clash against Arsenal in the knockout stages, where two goals from John Carew were enough to see them past Arsène Wenger’s team.

Another English foe awaited them in the semi-final. Leeds United were riding high on a hollow wave, the tenacity of Lee Bowyer and the temerity of Mark Vidukapushing them to the brink of Europe’s footballing showpiece. A 0-0 draw at Elland Road was followed by a 3-0 cruise at the Mestalla, Mendieta setting up Juan Sánchez’s first of two goals before he himself added a wonderful third. Valencia were going to the San Siro, with a chance to salve the previous years’ burning memory.
 

Skizzo

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First you won't be controlling the possession and dictating the pace because I maintain the midfield advantgae.
Second Coluna was more playmaker not any kind of defensive monster so if you expect him to help out with Lato then Mendieta and/or Falcao are running through the center with no one marking them. That is easy goals for us. In no way does Coluna outclass Mendieta in Mendieta's peak that is just absurd hyperbole that deserves no further mention.
Third Rensenbrink and Lato are just as much a mismatch against your full backs as your two, especially Dzajic who is not a good match for Zico's style. Pessotto and Maicon in their peaks are both stronger defensively than your FBs.
Fourth, Chiellini-Gentile is just about the weakest CB pairing in a back-4 I have ever seen in a draft. Its really not a synergistic pairing with each other or the side in general (asking the free man marking specialist Gentile to play a modern zonal CB role is just a disaster waiting to happen really).
Again you seem to be confused about a midfield advantage meaning you dominate proceedings. Having an extra player there doesn’t mean you dominate the match as you see fit.

Also, I’m not sure how you see Falcao and Mendieta “running through the center with no one marking them”. You have no number 10, so you require your midfield to fill some space in advanced positions, where I have players. Falcao who great at that, moving in to spaces Zico left for example, but if you push Mendieta in the same advanced positions, you open up space in behind for Zico to receive the ball. The man who’s far more dangerous than anyone you have going forward, and who you still have no way to stop.

The wingers and full back matchup is not an even battle in any way. Junior was comfortable cutting inside, so is perfect for watching Lato either way he goes, and you’re underrating McGrain if you think he lacks anything defensively compared to who you have on offer.

My cub pairing by name isn’t as good as yours, no...but to match up without Suarez, or wingers cutting inside, they’re well matched. Especially considering Chiellini hasn’t conceded against Suarez yet from what I recall.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Again you seem to be confused about a midfield advantage meaning you dominate proceedings. Having an extra player there doesn’t mean you dominate the match as you see fit.

Also, I’m not sure how you see Falcao and Mendieta “running through the center with no one marking them”. You have no number 10, so you require your midfield to fill some space in advanced positions, where I have players. Falcao who great at that, moving in to spaces Zico left for example, but if you push Mendieta in the same advanced positions, you open up space in behind for Zico to receive the ball. The man who’s far more dangerous than anyone you have going forward, and who you still have no way to stop.

The wingers and full back matchup is not an even battle in any way. Junior was comfortable cutting inside, so is perfect for watching Lato either way he goes, and you’re underrating McGrain if you think he lacks anything defensively compared to who you have on offer.

My cub pairing by name isn’t as good as yours, no...but to match up without Suarez, or wingers cutting inside, they’re well matched. Especially considering Chiellini hasn’t conceded against Suarez yet from what I recall.

Its tactics + numerical dominance + the type of players you have. 433 always has a possession advantage against a 4231. And my entire side is hard working players off the ball whereas you aren't getting much defensive work rate out of Zico and Dzajic. Plus you two CBs who are not good on the ball which prevent you from playing out from the back effectively.

Its going to look like like a lot of top heavy Arsenal sides that struggled to maintain possession against more crafty 433 tactics.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Lato (who was the key player in helping Poland to two 3rd place finishes at the World Cup). Leading scorer in WC74 guiding Poland to 3rd only behind two legendary sides. Scored matchwinner sagainst Argentina, Sweden, Yugoslavia and Brazil.
Definitely an underrated gem due to the Poland FA preventing anyone playing abroad until they were 30 in this era. He very well could have been a much more well known name without that restriction.

 

Skizzo

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Zico



Let’s get to the actual discussion here, and stop getting distracted by onenil’s filibustering and remarks about salad’s.

He has no one capable of stopping Zico running absolutely riot here. He wants Don Elias to keep tabs on Seeler, leaving Dzajic and Finney one on one against their full backs, and Zico has little to no resistance to stop him taking this game away from the opposition.

At his peak, he was the best in the World. Talked about as one of the greatest players of all time. He scored, he assisted, set pieces...


Those passes :drool:



With the movement around him, he’d thrive on the space to finish himself, link up with the runs in behind of Dzajic and Seeler, or pop in a free kick after being brought down from one of their dribbles.
 

Skizzo

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Its tactics + numerical dominance + the type of players you have. 433 always has a possession advantage against a 4231. And my entire side is hard working players off the ball whereas you aren't getting much defensive work rate out of Zico and Dzajic. Plus you two CBs who are not good on the ball which prevent you from playing out from the back effectively.

Its going to look like like a lot of top heavy Arsenal sides that struggled to maintain possession against more crafty 433 tactics.
It’s a 433 and a 433, the only difference is your DM is where my AM is. Is Cerezo moving way up field to continue this supposed dominance? No, he’s gotta keep an eye on Zico. Zico doesn’t need to work his socks off defensively, because the very threat he poses means Cerezo can’t leave him.

Same with Maicon. You want to push him upfield to take advantage of Dzajic’s lack of work rate, that just means a quick counter puts him in space running at Puyol.

There’s a difference between having CB’s who can play like Koeman, and who can make simple passes. Both of them have plenty of outlets around them, so it’s not like they’re on some island by themselves.

As for the bolded part, it makes no sense.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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It’s a 433 and a 433, the only difference is your DM is where my AM is. Is Cerezo moving way up field to continue this supposed dominance? No, he’s gotta keep an eye on Zico. Zico doesn’t need to work his socks off defensively, because the very threat he poses means Cerezo can’t leave him.

Same with Maicon. You want to push him upfield to take advantage of Dzajic’s lack of work rate, that just means a quick counter puts him in space running at Puyol.

There’s a difference between having CB’s who can play like Koeman, and who can make simple passes. Both of them have plenty of outlets around them, so it’s not like they’re on some island by themselves.

As for the bolded part, it makes no sense.

:lol:
Zico in that formation is a 4231. Zico is not nor has he ever been a CM. In Brazil during his peak his role in Placar was called "ponta-de-lanca". Its a 4231
Its 3 CM vs. 2 CM.

And your two CBs are about as ill suited to Zico tactic as it can get. You have no quality outball from the back.
 

Raees

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My Lord Zico makes me mind go fuzzy. How on earth could there be anyone better than him in the 80s lol
 

Skizzo

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:lol:
Zico in that formation is a 4231. Zico is not nor has he ever been a CM. In Brazil during his peak his role in Placar was called "ponta-de-lanca". Its a 4231
Its 3 CM vs. 2 CM.

And your two CBs are about as ill suited to Zico tactic as it can get. You have no quality outball from the back.
I never said he was a CM. You midfield is set up as one behind two, with your one as a DM. Mine is set up as one ahead of two, with Zico as an AM. They’re occupying similar spaces, unless you have Cerezo pushing farther up.

Also there’s plenty of outball from the back. Junior is back there, and Chiellini and Gentile are able to kick a football to Coluna, Silva, McGrain, and Leo.
 

Skizzo

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Are we supposed to believe that Tom Finney is also gonna be shut out by Pessotto? The same Tom Finney who scored 210 goals in 472 games for club, and 30 goals in 76 games for country?


Worth watching for the commentators alone :lol:

Bill Shankly said:
Tom Finney would have been great in any team, in any match and in any age, even if he had been wearing an overcoat.
Sir Stanley Matthews said:
To dictate the pace and course of a game, a player has to be blessed with awesome qualities.

Those who have accomplished it on a regular basis can be counted on the fingers of one hand – Pelé, Maradona, Best, Di Stefano, and Tom Finney.
Sir Bobby Charlton said:
Sir Tom Finney was one of the greatest footballers there has ever been; he was the type of player that people would travel a long way to see.
“He’s a great man and has contributed so much to football, especially in the Preston area. They love him there.
“I’m a good personal friend of Tom’s and he is very well liked in the game. He was a fantastic player – one of the world’s top players without question.
Tommy Docherty said:
I played football with Tom Finney for ten years in the Preston North End team and it was a pleasure to play football on the same pitch as the man. I was bad but he made me look good.

He made my bad passes look great. Because of Tom everybody thought I was a good player. He was a fantastic player – the greatest I’ve ever seen.

It wasn’t very nice playing against him though, I’ll tell you. We played against each other in Scotland v England games of course, and I could never catch him. The only time I got near him was in the tunnel before the game, and even then he was too fast for me!

If Tom was ever tackled unfairly you never heard him complain or retaliate. He was a gentleman on and off the field and an inspirational captain.

I became a much better player watching and listening to him. His enthusiasm for the game never wavered. He had a genuine love for football.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Are we supposed to believe Lato who has an even better NT record than Finney at 45 in 100 is going to be shut out by a playmaker at FB who is best known for his offensive contributions?
Or that Rensenbrink who is 25 in 35 in the Cup Winners Cup against superior defenses to the opponent here is going to get shut out by Danny fecking McGrain ?
 

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(asking the free man marking specialist Gentile to play a modern zonal CB role is just a disaster waiting to happen really)
I don't agree with you, at all. Gentile's role as a free marker is a role that he performed on very few occasions — they just happened to be the most highlighted moments of his career. He played LB, RB and CB for Juventus with equal ease and it wasn't a free role in a 5-men defence.
 

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@Skizzo Would be interested to hear your views on the role of Coluna. In a 4-2-3-1, normally you want a pure defensive player (Silva in your case) and someone who can play B2B pretty well. Is Coluna a a good fit for the B2B role? My thoughts were that he was more attack minded but i may be wrong
 

oneniltothearsenal

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I don't agree with you, at all. Gentile's role as a free marker is a role that he performed on very few occasions — they just happened to be the most highlighted moments of his career. He played LB, RB and CB for Juventus with equal ease and it wasn't a free role in a 5-men defence.
they didn't play a zonal system. They played a libero-man marking system and Gentile was a man marker not zonal. he never played Scirea's role for instance. He is not at all well suited to a modern zonal CB in a back-4 system.

If you think he is, then sure we definitely disagree.
 

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Are we supposed to believe Lato who has an even better NT record than Finney at 45 in 100 is going to be shut out by a playmaker at FB who is best known for his offensive contributions?
Or that Rensenbrink who is 25 in 35 in the Cup Winners Cup against superior defenses to the opponent here is going to get shut out by Danny fecking McGrain ?
I think that you are underrating McGrain a bit. Arguably he was one of the greatest British right backs of all time. Below is a very good post by @Invictus

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/synth-draft-sf-invictus-vs-gio.433049/#post-21586213
 

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Wasn't Mcgrain a more defensive full back ?
I'd say so, certainly in a modern context. He was no Leandro on the ball that was for sure. Still a sound all-rounder and should complement Finney quite well.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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I think that you are underrating McGrain a bit. Arguably he was one of the greatest British right backs of all time. Below is a very good post by @Invictus

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/synth-draft-sf-invictus-vs-gio.433049/#post-21586213
Not at all. Skizzo is taking pot shots at my FBs and I just don't think McGrain is any better defensively than Pessotto or Maicon in their peaks. I also think Rensenbrink and Lato are a bit underrated around drafts due to not being the shiniest players.
 
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Skizzo

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@Skizzo Would be interested to hear your views on the role of Coluna. In a 4-2-3-1, normally you want a pure defensive player (Silva in your case) and someone who can play B2B pretty well. Is Coluna a a good fit for the B2B role? My thoughts were that he was more attack minded but i may be wrong
He was a driving force of that Benfica side that won back to back European titles. I wanted him in this role precisely because of his ability to get forward, while still being a solid contributor on defense. Playing with Zico, there will be space vacated as Zico drives forward, perfect for Coluna to push into and crack off one of his long range specials.

He wasn’t the tallest, but he was often described as a tank for the way he physically handled players both with and without the ball.

About his defense he was very strong and also had an excellent positioning. He was a bit like a central midfielder and a libero at the same time, in defence he seemed more secure and sober than most of our CB's tbh. His tackling was nothing special and a bit ruff if needed, Di Stefano was probably better at tackling being more agile too, but Coluna's covering was essential to that team, just as well as his role in building up the play starting on the defence line. Many times he was the one which the keeper looked for too pass the ball.

About his passing well he was a playmaker with excelent vision but that doesn't mean he had fantastic passing skills because he kept it really really simple. Coluna is the one that gives consistency to a midfield (he's a one man army in midfield really in the way he is so complete).

The Sacred Monster” Mario Coluna is the best midfielder ever to born in the Africa and is the best midfielder in history of Benfica and Portuguese Liga, is best remembered as the best assister to Eusebio in Portugal’s glory year. Some call him as "Didi of Portugal". His primitive race was Mozambique as well as Eusebio, captained the legendary team of the "Magriços". Regarding his style of play, Strong at midfield, Coluna was known for the way he played on the field because of his elegant and efficient style with accurate passing and superb vision and ability to read the game. Coluna used to score long distance goals with ease. He was also known for is stamina, that allowed him to control all the areas in the field. In 1967, He was selected as a starter FIFA World XI against Champion of Europe “Spain” Coluna scored around 150 goals in 677 matches for Benfica.

It’s also the benefit of having Leo Junior, who became somewhat of an inverted full back on that side as well, to help when in possession of the ball.
 

Skizzo

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Not at all. Skizzo is taking pot shots at my FBs and I just don't think McGrain is any better defensively than Pessotto or Maicon in their peaks. I also think Rensenbrink and Lato are a bit underrated around drafts due to not being the shiniest players.
Taking pot shots? I’m talking about their actual match ups they face. Pessotto was a good, if unspectacular, full back. Maicon was a beast in his prime, I agree, but a big part of what he offers is nullified when he’s up against Dzajic. Finney one on one against Pessotto doesn’t bode particularly well for the Italian either.

If there’s any underrating of players going on, it seems to be you on McGrain.

I’ve had Lato in my teams a few times, and won a draft with him. So to say he’s underrated on here is a little strange.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Let's not forget Toninho Cerezo
Another massively underrated player among the current media and talking heads.

Cerezo was one of the most consistent and valuable deep lying playmakers of all time. He contributed massively to success wherever he went. In 1980 for unfancied Atl-Mineiro he was the highest rated player in Brazil over even Falcao, Socrates and Zico.


He helped Roma to the Coppa Italia in 84 and 86. He helped Sampdoria to Coppa Italia in 88 and 89. He was a huge presence in Sampdoria's legendary scudetto winning season in 90-91. He was in Sampdoria's European runs winning the Cup Winners Cup in 1990. Then he went back to Brazil and helped Tele Santana's legendary Sao Paulo that won the Libertadores in 92 and 93 and then the Intercontinental Cup over Capello's Milan in 93 and Cruyff's Barcelona in 92.

During this time the rangy Toninho (he was once described “as long as a day without coffee”), had developed into a fine defensive midfielder, not only strong in the tackle, but energetic, tactically aware and with a fine range of passing. His performance for Mineiro had brought him to A Seleção in 1977. Cerezo would go on to earn 57 caps for Brazil over the next eight years appearing at both the 1978 and 1982 World Cups and be a regular under Santana until injury forced his cut from the 1986 squad.

His performances led AS Roma to pay a reported $10million for him in 1983 – a substantial amount then for a defensive midfielder. Toninho would stay for three years helping i Giallorossi to two Coppa Italia titles the second in 1986 against a Sampdoria team he was joining a few week later.

The move to i Blucerchiati brought more success – the Coppa Italia in 1988 and 89; a UEFA Cup Winners Cup and Sampdoria’s sole Scudetto in the 1990-1 season. Age and injuries may have been catching up but when Sampdoria reached the European Cup Final in 1992 their opponents – Barcelona – thought enough of the old man (he was 37 by then) to put one of their brightest stars – a certain Pep Guardiola – to mark him.

The summer after that final Santana came calling again and Cerezo joined São Paulo. More triumph followed over the next two years including a Campeonato Paulista and a Copa Libertadores. São Paulo had already won the 1992 Intercontinental Cup when in 1993 they faced AC Milan with a chance to become only the fourth team to win the title back to back.

This was the Milan of Baresi and Maldini who would win the Scudetto the coming season conceding just 15 goals. The 38 year old Toninho excelled. A first time cross field pass to a young Cafu to set up the first, followed by a timed run to score the second at the back post himself and capped off with a defense splitting pass for the third. São Paulo won 3-2.

 

Gio

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Not at all. Skizzo is taking pot shots at my FBs and I just don't think McGrain is any better defensively than Pessotto or Maicon in their peaks. I also think Rensenbrink and Lato are a bit underrated around drafts due to not being the shiniest players.
Agree on those two not getting their dues, especially Lato suffering from that pasty Eastern European reputation, despite his World Cup heroics.

To be fair to McGrain though he’s the best defensive full back on the park. That was his strength and the main reason many saw him as the top right-back in the world in his heyday.
 

Gio

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Let's not forget Toninho Cerezo
Another massively underrated player among the current media and talking heads.

Cerezo was one of the most consistent and valuable deep lying playmakers of all time. He contributed massively to success wherever he went. In 1980 for unfancied Atl-Mineiro he was the highest rated player in Brazil over even Falcao, Socrates and Zico.


He helped Roma to the Coppa Italia in 84 and 86. He helped Sampdoria to Coppa Italia in 88 and 89. He was a huge presence in Sampdoria's legendary scudetto winning season in 90-91. He was in Sampdoria's European runs winning the Cup Winners Cup in 1990. Then he went back to Brazil and helped Tele Santana's legendary Sao Paulo that won the Libertadores in 92 and 93 and then the Intercontinental Cup over Capello's Milan in 93 and Cruyff's Barcelona in 92.




That was a great Sao Paolo team of the early 1990s.
 

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Shamelessly stealing some of the brief write ups from one of the resident Germans on the board..

Balu said:
the Hamburg legend and one of the greatest German players of all time, only overshadowed by Gerd Müller when it comes to German strikers. He was renowned for his brilliance in the air, one of the strongest headers of all time. But he also had an astonishing record with his feet in the air, scoring many overhead kicks. He was the dominant player in the pre-Bundesliga era and carried that over into the first ever Bundesliga season, when he finished as top scorer scoring 30 goals in 30 games. But he wasn't just a limited goalscorer and showed his adaptility and fantastic all around game once he partnered Müller for the nationalteam and formed a magnificent strike partnership, linking up play from midfield to attack, which lead to both together scoring 13 goals in 6 games at the World Cup 1970 (10 by Müller, 3 by Seeler).

The benefit of him is two-fold really. He’s a fantastic striker, and a danger in his own right...both in the air and with his feet. Secondly though, and the biggest benefit to Zico, is his ability to create space for strike partners and link up with them.

Still yet to hear how Zico is being stopped, and with Seeler being the threat he is with the ball on the floor linking up, and in the air with crosses from the marauding wingers, I see too many routes to goal to fully stop us outscoring the opposition. Especially as far as I’m aware, Suarez still hasn’t scored against Chiellini.
 

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Let’s not forget the keeers for once either.




There is this thing about the Germans that attracts me. No glitz, no glamor, no superstars that appear more often on page 3 rather than the sports section. If they are footballers, they will play football and keep it limited to the pitch. They are not part time models like Beckham and Ronaldo,no endorsing brands for personal income, just pure football, fluid, dynamic, effective, almost machine like.

Of course, not all machines are flawless, and each one needs a tweaking or two occasionally.

The entire German armada was horribly dejected after the shock 3-0 loss to Croatia in the World Cup of 1998, and following the departures of legends such as Klinsmann and Tarnat, the group stage exit at Euro 2000 wasn’t a surprising one either. The German team no longer had any ‘legends’ in them, just players. To be honest, there was a man knocking on the door of the hall of legends, while standing between the sticks. Two years later, the German squad suffered the same fate, but there was still something different about it. The German goalkeeper was no longer vying to be a legend, he had become one.

A legend that is Oliver Kahn.

Some people are just made to play football, while others take it a step further, being suited for a single role only. One look at Kahn and you knew the guy was a goalkeeper. Fitting the bill of a stereotypical goalkeeper, Oliver Kahn stood tall at 6″2, and his frame (not to mention face) was good enough to scare the living daylights out of any striker audacious enough to think about scoring. Loud mouthed and hard pressing, Oliver was not the gentle giant his teammates and opponents would want, but definitely the captain a manager would desire. Most modern day goalkeepers have a weakness or two in them, whether its set pieces, dead balls or one-on-ones. Kahn probably managed to scare his weaknesses away, because the only way it seemed anyone could get past the goalkeeper aptly named ‘Der Titan’ (The Titan), was to have their moment of genius, and if Kahn was having his moment of pure genius, the strikers would be better off coming back another day.

One would believe spending 14 years in service of a club generally involves being born in the city, growing up there, starting your youth training there and retiring there. Kahn however spent five less years in Bayern Munich, the club he actually captained, than he did at Karlsruher, the club he launched his career with. Starting out from the youth academy, where he initially attempted to play in an outfield role before attending his natural calling, Oliver progressed through the ranks of the Karlsruher goalkeepers, earning his spot in the first team around the age of 19. Kahn was heavily involved in the amazing 7-0 route of Valencia in the Euro cup quarter final, and made Kalsruher a force in itself in the Bundesliga

The Bavarian giants from Munich noticed this giant’s saves at Karlsruhe and his victory in the annual poll for ‘Best Goalkeeper in the League’, and they decided to sign him for a the then record fee for his position, and, as the meme goes, ‘One does not simply’ decline joining a team like Bayern. Oliver moved south to earn his trade, and ended up earning rewards, respect and accolades as well.

Bayern Munich were going through a bit of a lean patch when Kahn joined them. Although they was still performing on the domestic level, the ‘Bestia Negreda’ (‘Black Beast’ in Spanish, nickname given to them by Madristas, who were on the losing end of the mighty Bavarians’ European conquests in a black jersey) of the mid 1970s was nowhere to be seen. Oliver joined them and quickly earned a rightful place in the starting XI. He, along with other Bayern legends of the time, put their team back on the European map in 1996, when they won the UEFA Cup with a massive four-goal margin.

A few seasons into his career at Bayern Munich came the fated night in Barcelona, which was probably one of the darkest, if not the darkest, moment in Kahn’s illustrious career, where a magical Manchester United seemed to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Although not Kahn’s fault, he did have his share of accepting responsibilities and blame as the team captain, since their first choice captain was suspended, and people started doubting their team’s capabilities in taking on all of Europe and actually making the conquest. Kahn continued being the main man manning the nets, and he continued shining as he dove incredibly or gestured at his teammates to lead to yet another clean sheet. He answered any critic who doubted his ability by winning awards personally, and made sure his team won awards too.

The crowning moment arrived for Kahn two years after the major heartbreak, where he turned out to be a very influential member of the 2001 Champions League-winning Bayern Munich team, being the Man of Match in the finale, where his team won emphatically against a very capable Valencia side after taking the game to penalty shoot outs.

His escapades at Munich were far from unnoticed, as he was the runner-up to the FIFA World Player of the Year award in 2002, which was perhaps the year with the most mixed emotions for Kahn. The year had witnessed Kahn obtaining a podium finish in every individual competition on the face of the footballing planet, with a gold medal for each poll limited to his position. Very few players can claim to be peerless in their prime and in their position, but Kahn wasn’t just peerless, not a chip off the old block, he was a new block altogether.

A revolutionary even, for he had singlehandedly changed everyone’s mindset regarding the extremely unappreciated role of a goalkeeper, especially in Asia, since Japan and Korea hosted the Football World Cup that year.

Oliver went on to achieve numerous individual and domestic team honours in the next few years, and his ability to arrange the back four grew from prodigious to miraculous. As someone very rightly said, “a superior goalkeeper uses his superior organizational skills to prevent a situation from arising where he would have to use his superior skill”.

Kahn encountered very few shots on target during his time at Bayern, and the few ones that managed to get past the German defense would just be safely palmed. Oliver remained as hard charging as ever, rash, reckless, easy to fly into a rage, and yet, an inspirational leader. Oliver was, in effect, a second manager on the field, constantly forcing his team, especially the defensive lineup, to bend to his will and follow his orders, which were rarely incorrect or ineffective.

Kahn took over the reigns of Bayern Munich completely following the World Cup, and while his performances as a keeper had dipped a little from his stellar form at the World Cup, his experience and maturity grew along with his appointment as Captain. Leading the team from the back isn’t the easiest of tasks, but Kahn stepped up to it admirably, leading them to numerous victories and being one of the major reasons Bayern Munich performed in such a dominant manner in the Bundesliga and in Europe.

But he was no longer first choice when the World Cup came to his homeland in 2006. He was second choice behind then Arsenal keeper Jens Lehmann. Nevertheless, he was installed in goal for the third-place match, and also captained the German team in that match, again due to an absolutely stunning performance from Kahn, who continued to lead by example and inspiration.

Kahn played well into his 30s and still remained athletic enough to be Bayern Munich’s first choice goalkeeper. He finally decided to hang up his boots and fold his gloves in the year 2008, following a match in what is considered the largest stadium in the world, the Salt Lake Stadium in Kolkata, where a crowd of 120,000 people turned up to watch the legend one last time, as he dazzling those who had gathered with his dives. Having played over 400 matches for Bayern Munich, a majority of them as captain, was more than enough for the Bayern Munich board to name him as an honorary Captain for life.

A fitting tribute to ‘Der Titan’, the greatest goalkeeper and one of the most pragmatic captains to have graced the game.

A true legend of the Allianz, a man who was Bayern Munich himself, always Mr. Dependable at the back, the old guard, the staunch, stoic champion…a man who was more than a ceremonial captain, a true leader in every essence of the word.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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If you’re not just being obtuse, and legitimately have no plan to stop the best player on the field, then say no more :)
I will control the midfield and Cerezo is more than enough to slow Zico down. If Zico gets past Cerezo he has Don Elias Figueroa who is tiers above your CBs

1977 Cerezo best player in Brazil as defensive midfielder

Elias Figueroa
"The legend of Figueroa began very soon and before the greatest. In the run-up to their debut at the 1962 FIFA World Cup in Chile, Brazil used a youth team from Santiago Wanderers, a club from the city of Valparaíso, which was very close to Viña del Mar, headquarters of the match against Mexico. During those training sessions, a Chilean player stood out who, by category and personality, impressed Pele and company, which was no small thing: the Brazilians had won the title in Sweden in 1958 and would return to consecrate champions weeks later.

For the 1974 World Cup in Germany, that promise of only 15 years was already an imperial footballer. Everyone knew their ability to anticipate, their great air game, their command voice and their technique to go out playing. Without going any further, in Germany was recognized as the best defender of the tournament, forming the central duo of the ideal team with Franz Beckenbauer. "Figueroa is the best player in the history of Chile, and probably the best central defender in the history of football in America," Pele once said of him.
At the club level, in the Wanderers the starting post in the back was occupied by Raúl Sánchez, and Figueroa had to leave on loan to Union La Calera to enjoy minutes. In the cement box he performed excellently and Wanderers recumed him again for the 1965 season. From that moment he exploited all his conditions to become one of the best defenses in the league of his country and receive the call of the national team . In the 1966 World Cup he was observed by numerous scouts and a year later, after the South American Championship, he accepted a proposal from the Peñarol Athletic Club...

"At the end of 1971, the Chilean had a concrete offer from Real Madrid, but he preferred to go to SC Internacional de Porto Alegre. In the Brazilian league played several of the South American stars, and he wanted to measure himself with the best. Great moments that also moved to the selection. In 1973 Figueroa was the leader of the Chilean classification for Germany 1974. After eliminating Peru, the Red had to play a repechage against the Soviet Union, bronze medal in the Olympic Football Tournament Munich 1972. Figueroa shone in the historic 0-0 got to the go in Moscow. "Above was a lion. If he sometimes jumped with two Russians and ... to the ground with them and the ball was his, "goalkeeper Juan Olivares would highlight his captain's game. As Russia refused to travel to Chile for the rematch, because of the political situation that had led to a coup d'état, La Roja qualified without playing the return match. But the fame of the defender was increased in Germany, and this despite another early elimination. The best praise came from Beckenbauer himself: "I am the Figueroa of Europe".

There was no doubt about his figure, even reaching its impact outside the playing fields. The Brazilian composer Regis Antonio recorded an entire album to him, also alternating songs in honor of the International Club of Porto Alegre and the poet Pablo Neruda. After winning the 1974 Best Player of America Award, which also won the following two years, he arrived another highlight of his career: the conquest of the 1975 Brazilian Championship as captain of Inter. In the final against Cruzeiro, a ray of light slipped through the clouds that encamped the Beira Rio to illuminate the header of Figueroa, who scored the goal of the title. The legend of the Illuminated Goal earned him an almost mystical fame, which sometimes cost him to live. That was how in 1976, after winning another Brazilian title, Figueroa was ready to return to Chile.







 
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Skizzo

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I will control the midfield and Cerezo is more than enough to slow Zico down. If Zico gets past Cerezo he has Don Elias Figueroa who is tiers above your CBs

1977 Cerezo best player in Brazil as defensive midfielder
So long story short, you don’t have an actual plan. “Cerezo will slow down Zico” isn’t much of an actual plan. And Don Elias is the best CB on the pitch, no argument there, but he’s also responsible for Seeler, and covering for Finney cutting in. It’s a little much to ask of him to also try and stop the White Pele.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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So long story short, you don’t have an actual plan. “Cerezo will slow down Zico” isn’t much of an actual plan. And Don Elias is the best CB on the pitch, no argument there, but he’s also responsible for Seeler, and covering for Finney cutting in. It’s a little much to ask of him to also try and stop the White Pele.
:lol:

Says the person with no plan to stop Falcao, Mendieta, Lato and Rensenbrink.

Your tactical plan (or lack thereof) is going to let Falcao have all the time in the world on the ball.
 

Skizzo

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:lol:

Says the person with no plan to stop Falcao, Mendieta, Lato and Rensenbrink.

Your tactical plan (or lack thereof) is going to let Falcao have all the time in the world on the ball.
Use as many green smileys as you’d like...You’re just listing all your players as if it means something. No one on your team offers the same threat as Zico. Your striker leading the line hasn’t even scored against my center back who you keep downplaying.

Rensenbrink is no Dzajic. McGrain is a better defensive match up for the winger than Maicon.

Lato I’ve already talked about, and had him all the way through my winning draft.. but he will have a tougher time against Junior than Finney on against Pessotto. Lato will look to move inside, and Junior is comfortable enough going either way to make it difficult. On the flip side, Finney is up against Pessotto. Like I said, a good if unspectacular full back.

What game plan do you suppose to have in which your chance of winning rests on Mendieta and Falcao? There’s no easy route through when they’re coming up on Coluna and Silva.

The biggest mismatches all go in my favour, so If you're just hoping to get into a shootout, I have a more threatening, prolific forward line to do so.