Balkan Discussion

Mihajlovic

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Well a person can be against a government's policy and not be branded part of that policy. Otherwise Serbians wouldn't come out looking very good would they. :)
I have stopped caring what you guys think of us a long time ago. We could have gone away with murder- like the KLA, and like the Croats which your boys supported during Bljesak and Oluja, and like the Izetbegović clan (remember how you turned a blind eye to all those planes from Iran that were landing in Sarajevo delivering humanitarian aid;)- if only we would have kissed Clinton's and Albrights old ass, and just played along nicely.
 

Revan

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I have stopped caring what you guys think of us a long time ago. We could have gone away with murder- like the KLA, and like the Croats which your boys supported during Bljesak and Oluja, and like the Izetbegović clan (remember how you turned a blind eye to all those planes from Iran that were landing in Sarajevo delivering humanitarian aid;)- if only we would have kissed Clinton's and Albrights old ass, and just played along nicely.
Troll! :lol:
 

Mihajlovic

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Hey hows it going. I hear more than 100,000 Albanians have left their promised land because of a collapsed economy, corruption and mafia? My cousin tells me there hundreds of them already in Novi Sad, on their way to cross the border to Hungary. Really - you're fleeing your independent Kosova via Serbia? :lol:
 

Mihajlovic

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The American-Albanian brotherhood. Aren't you boys cute : )

Raoul, what have you guys planned for Macedonia? You gonna cut out a chunk and give it to the Albanians? A few Macedonian friends are telling me the situation is not looking good and there's a lot of tension.
 

Revan

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Hey hows it going. I hear more than 100,000 Albanians have left their promised land because of a collapsed economy, corruption and mafia? My cousin tells me there hundreds of them already in Novi Sad, on their way to cross the border to Hungary. Really - you're fleeing your independent Kosova via Serbia? :lol:
Mihajlovic went into meltdown - 2015 version.

Seriousy, don't you have to do anything better than derailing most of the threads in current events to tell everybody how the world was unfair on your precious Serbia? I guess that everyone here has heard you talking about it already a lot of times. And they either don't give a shit or just disagree with you. So, why don't you just talk for Ukraine in Ukraine thread. It shouldn't be that hard, right?

About me, well, I've never been better (and surely not in the nineties). Also, about your numbers, well that's awesome. You have a history of making things.
 

Mihajlovic

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Mihajlovic went into meltdown - 2015 version.

Seriousy, don't you have to do anything better than derailing most of the threads in current events to tell everybody how the world was unfair on your precious Serbia? I guess that everyone here has heard you talking about it already a lot of times. And they either don't give a shit or just disagree with you. So, why don't you just talk for Ukraine in Ukraine thread. It shouldn't be that hard, right?

About me, well, I've never been better (and surely not in the nineties). Also, about your numbers, well that's awesome. You have a history of making things.
Relax, Revan, there are only a few people discussing in this thread, so don't you worry your little head about derailing anything.

Lol, the numbers are coming from your sources. The numbers are also coming from Hungarian and German authorities who are dealing with the influx of thousands of Albanians. But listen, there's no shame in this. People just want to leave a desolate land and are hoping for a better future elsewhere. It's the same in Serbia, young people wanting to leave for the EU. That's just how it is.
 

Revan

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Relax, Revan, there are only a few people discussing in this thread, so don't you worry your little head about derailing anything.

Lol, the numbers are coming from your sources. The numbers are also coming from Hungarian and German authorities who are dealing with the influx of thousands of Albanians. But listen, there's no shame in this. People just want to leave a desolate land and are hoping for a better future elsewhere. It's the same in Serbia, young people wanting to leave for the EU. That's just how it is.
The number I've read is around 40k (not 100k) for 2014 and 2015 . Which is by far the biggest number since the nineties, when they left for completely different reasons (which you should know, of course).

And yep, the economy is pretty bad. Both biggest parties (who are into some weird coalition) are lead by people who have been in politics for a long time and are heavily corrupted. Which obviously is bad for an economy who is anyway a very weak one. I guess that people are also leaving (or have beein doing so in the last few years) from our neighbours (for example Serbia has the biggest diaspora in Europe, right?).

Anyway, Ukraine.
 

Mihajlovic

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The number I've read is around 40k (not 100k) for 2014 and 2015 . Which is by far the biggest number since the nineties, when they left for completely different reasons (which you should know, of course).

And yep, the economy is pretty bad. Both biggest parties (who are into some weird coalition) are lead by people who have been in politics for a long time and are heavily corrupted. Which obviously is bad for an economy who is anyway a very weak one. I guess that people are also leaving (or have beein doing so in the last few years) from our neighbours (for example Serbia has the biggest diaspora in Europe, right?).

Anyway, Ukraine.
Mismanagement and corruption are ridiculous. Destroying us. Ah well.

Ukraine.
 

Godfather

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Odessa isn't part of Novorossiya, you genius. Novorossiya is what the separatist leaders call Donetsk and Luhansk regions and that's where the war is going on. Odessa is nowhere near it. Next time you 'visit' there, try to learn some basic stuff. I mean, you're the Caf expert on the Ukrainian crisis.
Like most Americans with most stuff
 

Revan

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Rather 'in the last 20 years'. You're missing the point. I never denied Serbia's economy is bad, corruption levels are high, and people are looking for a more secure future elsewhere. My post was a dig at the American creation, the new 'independent Kosovo' where apparently everything was always Serbia's and Milosevic's fault, you would have thought the place is going to be the new Monaco once they are 'free'! Turns out the whole place is a mess and Albanian protesters are now being beaten by their own police instead of Serbian. Or as Der Spiegel summarised: "In Scharen fliehen die Menschen aus dem Kosovo - vor Korruption, Drogenhandel, Armut. Wer sich nicht mit den mächtigen Clans verbündet, hat keine Chance in dem kleinen Balkanstaat."

The U.S. left a similar gift to the people of Libya where everything is so much better now that people are 'free'.
The US stopped a humanitarian crisis, and stopped Serbia killing more Albanians than it had already done.

Now, we can't expect US to come and fix the economy and the culture of the people there. Well, obviously there are some who expect that, but they're fools. And obviously not everything was the fault of Serbia and no-one expected Kosovo to become the new Monaco.

What is can be undoubdetly said though, is that Kosovo is far better than it was on the nineties. It is still one of the poorest countries in Europe though. There are many reasons for that. While you should know them, well, I'll enlighten you a bit. More than half a million people left Kosovo before the war 'started' on 1997. Many of them were educated, so that's a start (brain leaving a small country). The only university on Kosovo was closed and so people had to improvize, significantly decreasing the quality of education (which was quite low in the first place). The same thing happened for all high schools and people had to go in improvized schools at homes of other people. Quality was non-existent. Now, a lot from those people are on leading position, and it is fair to say that they are clueless. Also, when cancer starts it is difficult to stop it. The quality of education is still low, because they compare it with how it was on nineties (which shouldn't ever be compared with anything).

Then there is infrastructure which has been completely destroyed during the war. While roads, houses and many other things are far better now then it ever was, the factories haven't ever come back to how they were during the Tito time. The biggest mine in Kosovo - Trepca - is only partially functional (both for political and economical reasons).

And obviously corruption which has been as a big problem of the other two. Most of the leaders (bar those of a party who is very extreme) are heavily corrupted. Here the fault is also with EU/US because they sponsored those leaders (like your beloved Thaci for example). The last US ambasador was almost an absolute king on Kosovo and now he is working for a company which makes highways. And which is the same company who made Kosovo-Albania highway which cost more than a billion and was way above the price of the market. And most likely the same company will make the new highways for Macedonia and Serbia. That ambassador directly intervened in politics of Kosovo (even to the degree of choosing the president) and heavily favorized Thaci's party. It seems that he had benefited directly from it.

Saying that, it would be hard to find any Albanian (be it from Kosovo or otherwise) that would have to say anything bad for US. All of us have only thanks for US and on many polls, Albanians have been described as (one of) the most pro-American nation. 4 July is as big a celebration as 17 February (day of indipendence) in Kosovo. So, 'US creating a mess' isn't something that natives in Kosovo would say. It is on only your imagination/bitterness.

Is it good? Of course, no. Is it better than it was? By a million times. On any possible way, be it economically, socially or just not having the fear that today will come a few policmen who would kill you and beat your family members for no other particular reason (other than being Albanian).
 

Godfather

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Rather 'in the last 20 years'. You're missing the point. I never denied Serbia's economy is bad, corruption levels are high, and people are looking for a more secure future elsewhere. My post was a dig at the American creation, the new 'independent Kosovo' where apparently everything was always Serbia's and Milosevic's fault, you would have thought the place is going to be the new Monaco once they are 'free'! Turns out the whole place is a mess and Albanian protesters are now being beaten by their own police instead of Serbian. Or as Der Spiegel summarised: "In Scharen fliehen die Menschen aus dem Kosovo - vor Korruption, Drogenhandel, Armut. Wer sich nicht mit den mächtigen Clans verbündet, hat keine Chance in dem kleinen Balkanstaat."

The U.S. left a similar gift to the people of Libya where everything is so much better now that people are 'free'.
That I agree with. Only partly though. It wasn't looking all that bad until their last president died. It all went wrong from then on
 

Cheesy

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This war back in the 90's is one of the ones I have little clue about, only know it roughly involved Croatia, Serbia etc. Anyone got a brief explanation as to what happened, why it happened etc?
 

Revan

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That I agree with. Only partly though. It wasn't looking all that bad until their last president died. It all went wrong from then on
There have been 3 other presidents since the last one died. And he was overrated anyway (in fact, the entire institution of president is powerless in Kosovo and is similar to states like Germany or Italy when president has almost only ceremonial roles).

It wasn't looking that bad because people were being feed on 'freedom and liberty'. The problem is that after a few years of that, then people will start to look for other things. You know like having a better economy (currently the unemployement rate is around 40%). The governments since then (practically lead by Thaci who was one of the most important people of KLA, and de facto leader of it on the last year or so) haven't cared to invest in economy. It has all been making roads (even highways) or increasing the wages on public sector, but for the majority of people, the economy hasn't changed a single bit. Also, him (and his pawns like the new prime minister) are heavily corrupted which makes the problem even bigger. Add to that, Serbia has done everything in its power to stop Kosovo and the place doesn't look a good place for outside investments.
 

holyland red

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This war back in the 90's is one of the ones I have little clue about, only know it roughly involved Croatia, Serbia etc. Anyone got a brief explanation as to what happened, why it happened etc?
Why bother? Having no clue never stopped you from offering your opinion. ;)
 

Revan

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This war back in the 90's is one of the ones I have little clue about, only know it roughly involved Croatia, Serbia etc. Anyone got a brief explanation as to what happened, why it happened etc?
It is hard to give a brief explanation, to be fair. Also my explanation (or that of Mali_Zeus or bosnian_red) would be completely different to explanation of Mihajlovic.

Short story: Milosevic went mad and had a lot of support from practically all Serbian leadership. He wanted the big Serbia and so either started war, or made the situation on that way that the other states will want to seperate. There were four wars on the region. The Slovenian lasted short and didn't had many victims. The Croatia-Serbia was was a bloodshell, but was very balanced (consdering that Croatia was more developed than Serbia and had a quite big population). Serbia-Bosna on the other hand wasn't balanced and was the biggest massacre on Europe since World War 2. The Bosna wouldn't have existed if NATO wouldn't have (although very late) intervened and stopped Serbia from making a new Holocaust in Europe. Still, a hundred thousands or so Bosniaks paid the price of war with thier life. The war with the province of Kosovo (which was occupied by Serbia after Turks left the Balkan - again I'll expect Mihajloic to disagree) at the beginning wasn't ever a war considering that Albanians despite being 90% on the region didn't had much power. Considering that we weren't slavic population (the only non Slavic population in Yugoslavia), Albanians were discriminated and were the second tier of population on Yugoslavia. Anyway, in 1997 there started a Guerrila War which had some victims (mainly on Albanians civil). Miosevic completely lost it, his partner Seselj was even worse, and Serbia started massacres on civils which ultimatelly resulted on NATo bombing them. 15000 Albanians and 4000 or so Serbians paid the price.

Between the wars, Macedonia was seperated from Yugoslavia too. And in 2005, Montenegro did the same, leaving Serbia the only member.

Long story is quite a bit more complicated than a LOTR version of strong evil state vs nice powerless states and it is hard to explain it here. Anyway, Yugoslavia was a very artificial state, based very much on communism and its leader Tito. With his death and with the changes on system, there wasn't much to keep the states and populations together. It might have also been pushed by the success of republics in Soviet Union who achieved indipendence from Russia. The last factor, is that Milosevic indeed went mad (if he was ever sane) and manipulated an entire country to do as he wished. Whatever people say, Serbia was the biggest loser of the wars, and by the end of them it was transformed from the center of a quite powerful and influential state, to a very irrelevant one (add to that, the number of victims on their side and their infrastructure completely destroyed from NATO).

After all those wars, the economy on all the states was very bad. Slovenia and Croatia (especially the fomer) left the past behind them and stred becoming mondern states. The end result is that both of them are members of both EU and NATO, and have nice economies. The others weren't as smart and are still living partially on the past. A lot of leaders are from the time of war (for example, the president of Serbia was the No.2 in Radical Party of Seselj, the prime minister was a very important memeber of that party, while the minister of foreign affairs was the secretary of Milosevic party; in Kosovo, the ex-prime minister - who is now minister of foreign affairs but is de facto prime minister - was the politic leader of KLA). Most of them are heavily corrupted and don't have a vision how to develop their states, but are more interested on becoming very rich people. And feed the people with 'their glorious past'. There have been some steps in the right decision between Kosovo and Serbia on the last couple of years (and some other on wrong direction between Serbia and Bosna at the same time), but there isn't much to say that things will become better.
 

Cheesy

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It is hard to give a brief explanation, to be fair. Also my explanation (or that of Mali_Zeus or bosnian_red) would be completely different to explanation of Mihajlovic.

Short story: Milosevic went mad and had a lot of support from practically all Serbian leadership. He wanted the big Serbia and so either started war, or made the situation on that way that the other states will want to seperate. There were four wars on the region. The Slovenian lasted short and didn't had many victims. The Croatia-Serbia was was a bloodshell, but was very balanced (consdering that Croatia was more developed than Serbia and had a quite big population). Serbia-Bosna on the other hand wasn't balanced and was the biggest massacre on Europe since World War 2. The Bosna wouldn't have existed if NATO wouldn't have (although very late) intervened and stopped Serbia from making a new Holocaust in Europe. Still, a hundred thousands or so Bosniaks paid the price of war with thier life. The war with the province of Kosovo (which was occupied by Serbia after Turks left the Balkan - again I'll expect Mihajloic to disagree) at the beginning wasn't ever a war considering that Albanians despite being 90% on the region didn't had much power. Considering that we weren't slavic population (the only non Slavic population in Yugoslavia), Albanians were discriminated and were the second tier of population on Yugoslavia. Anyway, in 1997 there started a Guerrila War which had some victims (mainly on Albanians civil). Miosevic completely lost it, his partner Seselj was even worse, and Serbia started massacres on civils which ultimatelly resulted on NATo bombing them. 15000 Albanians and 4000 or so Serbians paid the price.

Between the wars, Macedonia was seperated from Yugoslavia too. And in 2005, Montenegro did the same, leaving Serbia the only member.

Long story is quite a bit more complicated than a LOTR version of strong evil state vs nice powerless states and it is hard to explain it here. Anyway, Yugoslavia was a very artificial state, based very much on communism and its leader Tito. With his death and with the changes on system, there wasn't much to keep the states and populations together. It might have also been pushed by the success of republics in Soviet Union who achieved indipendence from Russia. The last factor, is that Milosevic indeed went mad (if he was ever sane) and manipulated an entire country to do as he wished. Whatever people say, Serbia was the biggest loser of the wars, and by the end of them it was transformed from the center of a quite powerful and influential state, to a very irrelevant one (add to that, the number of victims on their side and their infrastructure completely destroyed from NATO).

After all those wars, the economy on all the states was very bad. Slovenia and Croatia (especially the fomer) left the past behind them and stred becoming mondern states. The end result is that both of them are members of both EU and NATO, and have nice economies. The others weren't as smart and are still living partially on the past. A lot of leaders are from the time of war (for example, the president of Serbia was the No.2 in Radical Party of Seselj, the prime minister was a very important memeber of that party, while the minister of foreign affairs was the secretary of Milosevic party; in Kosovo, the ex-prime minister - who is now minister of foreign affairs but is de facto prime minister - was the politic leader of KLA). Most of them are heavily corrupted and don't have a vision how to develop their states, but are more interested on becoming very rich people. And feed the people with 'their glorious past'. There have been some steps in the right decision between Kosovo and Serbia on the last couple of years (and some other on wrong direction between Serbia and Bosna at the same time), but there isn't much to say that things will become better.
Thanks, interesting summary.
 

Mihajlovic

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It is hard to give a brief explanation, to be fair. Also my explanation (or that of Mali_Zeus or bosnian_red) would be completely different to explanation of Mihajlovic.

Short story: Milosevic went mad and had a lot of support from practically all Serbian leadership. He wanted the big Serbia and so either started war, or made the situation on that way that the other states will want to seperate. There were four wars on the region. The Slovenian lasted short and didn't had many victims. The Croatia-Serbia was was a bloodshell, but was very balanced (consdering that Croatia was more developed than Serbia and had a quite big population). Serbia-Bosna on the other hand wasn't balanced and was the biggest massacre on Europe since World War 2. The Bosna wouldn't have existed if NATO wouldn't have (although very late) intervened and stopped Serbia from making a new Holocaust in Europe. Still, a hundred thousands or so Bosniaks paid the price of war with thier life. The war with the province of Kosovo (which was occupied by Serbia after Turks left the Balkan - again I'll expect Mihajloic to disagree) at the beginning wasn't ever a war considering that Albanians despite being 90% on the region didn't had much power. Considering that we weren't slavic population (the only non Slavic population in Yugoslavia), Albanians were discriminated and were the second tier of population on Yugoslavia. Anyway, in 1997 there started a Guerrila War which had some victims (mainly on Albanians civil). Miosevic completely lost it, his partner Seselj was even worse, and Serbia started massacres on civils which ultimatelly resulted on NATo bombing them. 15000 Albanians and 4000 or so Serbians paid the price.

Between the wars, Macedonia was seperated from Yugoslavia too. And in 2005, Montenegro did the same, leaving Serbia the only member.

Long story is quite a bit more complicated than a LOTR version of strong evil state vs nice powerless states and it is hard to explain it here. Anyway, Yugoslavia was a very artificial state, based very much on communism and its leader Tito. With his death and with the changes on system, there wasn't much to keep the states and populations together. It might have also been pushed by the success of republics in Soviet Union who achieved indipendence from Russia. The last factor, is that Milosevic indeed went mad (if he was ever sane) and manipulated an entire country to do as he wished. Whatever people say, Serbia was the biggest loser of the wars, and by the end of them it was transformed from the center of a quite powerful and influential state, to a very irrelevant one (add to that, the number of victims on their side and their infrastructure completely destroyed from NATO).

After all those wars, the economy on all the states was very bad. Slovenia and Croatia (especially the fomer) left the past behind them and stred becoming mondern states. The end result is that both of them are members of both EU and NATO, and have nice economies. The others weren't as smart and are still living partially on the past. A lot of leaders are from the time of war (for example, the president of Serbia was the No.2 in Radical Party of Seselj, the prime minister was a very important memeber of that party, while the minister of foreign affairs was the secretary of Milosevic party; in Kosovo, the ex-prime minister - who is now minister of foreign affairs but is de facto prime minister - was the politic leader of KLA). Most of them are heavily corrupted and don't have a vision how to develop their states, but are more interested on becoming very rich people. And feed the people with 'their glorious past'. There have been some steps in the right decision between Kosovo and Serbia on the last couple of years (and some other on wrong direction between Serbia and Bosna at the same time), but there isn't much to say that things will become better.
Well that’s a terribly inaccurate post.

For starters, Milosevic did not want a Greater Serbia. That was the ideology of the SRS (Seselj) who were in constant conflict with the socialist Milosevic. Milosevic, true to his socialist cause, wanted to keep a Tito-style Yugoslavia exactly as it was. In fact, the Serbian radicals hated the communist Slobo for being such a fecking communist who was trying to keep a Yugoslavia together INSTEAD of going for a Greater Serbia. Here's one thing though, maybe you can try to understand this once and for all- yes, we Serbs from Bosnia and I know from many Serbs from Croatia- we did in fact want to live in one country, and that country was called Yugoslavia. Did you get that?

You’re painting a picture of four independent states, three of which were attacked or invaded by a foreign army. The truth is that according to the very badly drafted 1974 constitution, a secession of individual republics would have to be agreed with ‘all people’. The Serbs who lived in the Yugoslav Socialist Republic of Croatia did not want to live in any other country than Yugoslavia. The Yugoslav National Army was supposed to protect any internal attempts to disintegrate the Federation. It was crucially important that the issue of minorities of any newly formed states is being discussed and agreed upon before such states can be given a full independence.

The argument was, that if the HDZ unilaterally declares independence from Yugoslavia, then the Serbs from Krajina would declare independence from Croatia. Half a million Serbs living in the Yugoslav Socialist Republic of Croatia weren’t going to accept an overnight loss of their homeland (Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia) and wake up in a nationalist HDZ nightmare (check the infamous murder of the Serbian family Zec, in Zagreb).

This is just briefly to point out that this “Milosevic went mad” crap is nothing but ridiculous. And for the record, before I proceed, no I am not a Milosevic fan boy and it think he should have been tried for a few things internally in Serbia.

Bosnia: quite the same thing. The Serbs, who lived in Bosnia since god knows when, did not all of a sudden want to lose their homeland (Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia) and live in a country ruled by an egotistic maniac and former criminal, the muslim Izetbegovic. You tell me, only yesterday I lived in a country called Yugoslavia, why on earth should I tomorrow want to live in a Muslim dominated country called Bosnia where my people would overnight become a minority? The Serbs thought well feck this, if Yugoslavia is falling apart, then Bosnia and Hercegovina might fall apart also- so we created Republika Srpska- basically splitting the Socialist Republic of Bosnia in half, half for us, and half for the Muslims. That was in January 1992. The war hasn't even started. In February 1992 all parties agreed to the Lisbon Plan, which you never mention in your joke of a post. In February 1992 everything could have been resolved. According to Cutiliero, Izetbegovic suddenly pulled out and demanded the whole Bosnia. Well that was never going to happen. Subsequently we got treated quite nicely by our Muslim neighbors in Sijekovac and Brod in March 1992, you might want to look it up. And this is how the war started.

You might want to check your figures as they are not up to date. 100k casualties in BiH include tens of thousands Serbian and Croatian casualties.

Btw, I see you’re not mentioning the internal war between the Muslim parties (Izetbegovic vs. Abdic), and you’re not mentioning the war between Croats and Muslims. Ah well, just blame it all on the mad Milosevic.

Don’t want to go into too much detail on Kosovo, just to point out a few facts. You need to read the official reports from the OSZE from that time who prior to the bombing of Serbia reported that there are no issues apart from the Serbian police fighting against an armed terrorist group UCK. That’s the same UCK that got labeled terrorist group by the US State Department. As for Kosovo’s economy, that was pretty much fecked and it affected equally every single person who lived in Kosovo, whether Serb or Albanian. Again, check your causality figures prior to March 1999 as, unsurprisingly, they are ridiculously inflated.

The rest of your post contains some truth, re. Yugoslavia being an artificial country, yes, should have never been formed in the first place. The rest of the stuff is pretty much non-sense, pinning down everything on Milosevic who had no influence on what happened in Bosnia as he and Karadzic were in constant conflict, who had no influence over Babic in Krajina (half a million Serbs in Croatia can speak for themselves), and you’re also not mentioning the Ustasa loving Tudjman and that mujahedeen loving Izetbegovic.

What you have today is a total mess with losers on all sides. I think only Slovenia is OK, but considering their size and geography, I wouldn’t expect anything less. Croatia is a semi-fascist state with a bad economy, comparable to Serbia’s bad economy. So that’s how bad it is. Kosovo is a failed state completely. Macedonia is a NATO protectorate. Bosnia is a joke of a country and is forcibly kept together- for god knows what reason the same idiots who supported the disintegration of Yugoslavia are supporting the existence of a mini-Yugoslavia. Luckily we have our own entity and the Muslims have their own. Peace and quiet guaranteed.
 

Revan

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@Mihajlovic, I suspected that our explanation won't agree.

To point some things:
Milosevic didn't want a great Serbia. Well, that is bullshit. Obviously, Seselj wanted A Greater Serbia, while Milosevic wanted the current state to exists but with Serbia leading everything and all other citizens to be second tier citizens. And kill whoever didn't agree with him. The politics of Seselj and Milosevic were different only in implementation, not in endgoal. Which is the reason while during the end they had a coalition.

Your picture of Milosevic the saint who was trying to keep a state together is very innacurate. Yes, the other states wanted indipendence. How bad, states wanting indipendence, who would have thought that? The issue of minorities could have easily been solved if Serbia's main goal wasn't to get as much territories as possible.

It also is extreme hypocrisy from your part how Serbs who lived in other countries had the right of seperating and becoming independent or join Serbia if the seperation wiill happen, but other people didn't had that right. You know, like Albanians who were like 90% of population in Kosovo (would have been even bigger if Preseva-Medvega-Bujanoc inhabited completely from Albanians wouldn't have been swapped with Leposavic and Zubin Potok completely inhabited from Serbians in order to rewrite the numbers). So, why for example, Serbians in Bosna had the right to don't get ruled from Bosniaks while Albanians in Kosovo hadn't the right for independence (you should also know that at the beginning Albanians asked only for indipendence from Serbia, not Yugoslavia).

Now, lets continue with Kosovo (mainly because I am far more familiar with it than with wars in Croatia and Bosna). Why the constituion of 1974 became void in the first place, basically removing any leadership right for a group of 2 million people? Why 90%+ of Albanians in Kosovo lost their job in the nineties (and here we are talking before any cellule of KLA existed). Why University of Pristina was closed? Why all Albanian high school objects were closed? Why a lot of Albanians were beat and killed from Serbian police (and paramilitaries) for no apparent reason? Come on, don't say that was because Serbia was protecting Yugoslavia.

'Srbija do Tokija'! You know that (not in soccer slogane version) was the biggest reason why all those things happened. Like Srebrenica massacre (which you deny) for example. Like massacre of Recak when the head of OSCE said that: it was a crime very much against humanity (genocide). I do not hesitate to accuse the (Serb) government security forces. We want to know who gave the orders, and who carried them out. I will insist that justice will be done. They certainly didn't deserve to die in circumstances like this.'

KLA was labelled as a terrorist group, I agree with you. Frankly speaking, is there a group who fought for freedom and wasn't called a terrorist group? We also saw, that when Americans started working with them, they completely changed the opinion on KLA. Anyway, KLA spread terror on Serbian police and military, so by definition it was a terrorist group, right? ;) Civilians weren't targeted though, because if they were (considering that even during the war Albanians and Serbians lived in the same buildings) the victims would have been in far greater numbers. The same cannot be said for Serbians police (and paramilitary, were you one of them? ;)) considering how many massacres happened in Kosovo during the end of the war when it became clear that Serbia lost Kosovo. The revenge massacres had no reason to happen considering that there was only one direction the things were going to go.

Anyway, I would love to know if you really believe your version of the story. The world becoming together to crush the nice Serbia.

After all, there is only one state in the world whose entire leadership was accused for war crimes and genocide and was judged from international justice. Your beloved Serbia.

PS: Croatia having as bad economy as Serbia? Are you joking? Nominal GDP of Croatia is for 50% higher than that of Serbia, despite that Croatia has only 60% of the population of Serbia. For capita is 2:1 in favour of Croatia. And seriously, it is reach from you calling an another state a semi-fascist.
Serbia, Republic of Kosovo, Bosna and Macedonia are in bad position though, and it doesn't look that it'll become much better in short term. Montenegro is going into a better road though. Obviously, Serbia has the biggest chance of improving things considering that it is by far the biggest and most powerful of those states. But it seems that you're still living in the past.
 

Mihajlovic

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@Revan, I don't think you're familiar with the situation in Yugoslavia in 1990 and 1991. The leaders of the six republics were discussing the future of the state and the situation was pretty much like this: Kucan and Tudjman wanted a full independence from Yugoslavia, de facto seceding from the federal unit- which was completely unconstitutional. These are the facts. Google the 1974 constitution and check it for yourself. Milosevic wanted to keep the SFRJ exactly as it is. Bulatovic was in the same boat. Gligorov wasn't quite sure what he wants, but was leaning more towards keeping the SFRJ. Izetbegovic was looking for a compromise and suggested looking into some sort of confederation, leaving to option for full independence after a referendum. Izetbegovic presented the case quite well in 1991, I thought back then. This was the situation on the ground in 1991. Four out of six were for keeping the state as it is, with one of them looking for a future option of forming a confederation. The biggest cause of trouble was Tudjman who already declared Croatia independent and took the right, which he under the constitution of the SFRJ did not have, to literally abolish Yugoslavia.

All of the above are facts. Not sure how old you were in the 90s but this was aired on our TVs day and night, it was general knowledge that Milosevic was a die hard communist who did not want to change anything but keep a Titoist style Yugoslavia. In retrospect I think he was deluded in thinking his idea was sustainable and personally I would have opted for a confederation. My point is though that your assessment of Milosevic is completely wrong.

The situation in Kosovo was deteriorating in the 80s already. That was a decade before Milosevic even stepped on the scene. So if you want to understand the dynamics between Serbs and Albanians in SAP Kosovo, you need to go back in the 80s and dig a little bit deeper.
 

holyland red

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This is like Israel thread. But in the Balkans.

This is anything but. In this thread two people who are clued up offer their views and narratives on a regional conflict they're involved in to some extent. The rest who don't have a clue other than the odd documentary refrain from offering expert opinions.
 

Jippy

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This is anything but. In this thread two people who are clued up offer their views and narratives on a regional conflict they're involved in to some extent. The rest who don't have a clue other than the odd documentary refrain from offering expert opinions.
I meant in the sense that it is a discussion between people with diametrically opposed views who will never ever agree.
 

Mihajlovic

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I meant in the sense that it is a discussion between people with diametrically opposed views who will never ever agree.
It's still important to point out factual errors, such as 'Milosevic wanting a greater Serbia', or 'Milosevic attacking 4 countries' and other such often repeated non-sense. The reasons for the conflict are incredibly complex and require looking into much more detail.
 

Wibble

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The cause of the conflict was the breakdown of Yugoslavia, a manufactured country, and the power vacuum left by the end of Communism. As often happens in such situations the more powerful inflicted pain and death on the less powerful. Serbia probably has more to answer for because they were more powerful (on average) but war crimes were committed by others as well.
 

Revan

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It's still important to point out factual errors, such as 'Milosevic wanting a greater Serbia', or 'Milosevic attacking 4 countries' and other such often repeated non-sense. The reasons for the conflict are incredibly complex and require looking into much more detail.
You aren't telling things as they were though. For a start, while it is true that the votes were for Yugoslavia to not be seperated, you forgot to mention why this was the case. Milosevic had already stolen the votes of Kosovo and Vojvodina, while Bulatovic (who was a big ally of him) came into power with a coup d'etat. So with not democratic ways, Serbia managed to get 4 of the eight votes required to make any big decision (like seperation) which meant that at-worst case, they could put any decision on deadlock. Lets not forget that the way how Serbia got the vote of Kosovo (for those interested, by brutally forcing a strike to end - which in fact was the beginning of the end for the artificial state - and by arresting the leaders of Kosovo).

Slovenia felt rightly threatened by what happened on Montenegro, Vojvodina and Kosovo. Being a small state made them the next target. So, they had to act (especially considering Milosevic retoric).

In all four states that had referendum, more than 90% of the voters voted for independence (even on Macedonia who were allies of Serbia). Kosovo representatives declared independence (from Serbia, not Yugoslavia) too. On return, Serbia started the wars on Slovenia, Croatia (by creating states there and supporting them), Bosna (after the creation of Republica Srpska) and located a number of forces in Kosovo (also, removing any rights of Albanian population there and firing hundred of thousands of people from their jobs).

So yes, we can argue that Slobodan didn't want exactly the big Serbia (contrary to Seselj who literarry wanted to crush other republics and get most of their territories). He wanted to continue Yugoslavia, him becoming the new Tito, but everything to be controled from Serbia. Which is the same thing in the end.

Izetbegovic confederation plan was the best solution (actually a confederation solution had been mentioned from Slovenia and Croatia leaders before). If it had been accepted, then ultimatelly everything would have ended with the same results. But without 150000+ dead people.

The cause of the conflict was the breakdown of Yugoslavia, a manufactured country, and the power vacuum left by the end of Communism. As often happens in such situations the more powerful inflicted pain and death on the less powerful. Serbia probably has more to answer for because they were more powerful (on average) but war crimes were committed by others as well.
In every war, there are war crimes from both sides. What cannot be denied though, is that Serbia made the absolute majority of those crimes (FFS, in Kosovo there were even 6 month olds babies who were executed). Which was also the reason why almost its entire leadership went for a visit on International Court Justice in Hague.
 
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Wibble

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In every war, there are war crimes from both sides. What cannot be denied though, is that Serbia made the absolute majority of those crimes (FFS, in Kosovo there were even 6 month olds babies who were executed). Which was also the reason why almost its entire leadership went for a visit on International Court Justice in Hague.
Agreed.
 

Amar__

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I was in Serbia few weeks ago and they look even worse than Bosnia these days. Beograd is nice, but whichever direction I headed from Beograd I felt sorry for them, and I am coming from Bosnia ffs.

Republika Srpska is equally bad, I am sure serbs there would be living better life there if Republika Srpska never happened, because it's hard to live worse. But Mihajlovic wouldn't agree, he is probably happy as long as they have "their" entity, even if they are totally fecked up.

When there were floods 5 or 6 months ago in Republike Srpska(and in Federation too), you couldn't send them help because the likes of SNSD didn't allow muslim people from Federacija to help their people because Serbs might find them friendly.
 

Desert Eagle

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I was in Serbia few weeks ago and they look even worse than Bosnia these days. Beograd is nice, but whichever direction I headed from Beograd I felt sorry for them, and I am coming from Bosnia ffs.

Republika Srpska is equally bad, I am sure serbs there would be living better life there if Republika Srpska never happened, because it's hard to live worse. But Mihajlovic wouldn't agree, he is probably happy as long as they have "their" entity, even if they are totally fecked up.

When there were floods 5 or 6 months ago in Republike Srpska(and in Federation too), you couldn't send them help because the likes of SNSD didn't allow muslim people from Federacija to help their people because Serbs might find them friendly.
Could you provide some links please
 

Mihajlovic

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I was in Serbia few weeks ago and they look even worse than Bosnia these days. Beograd is nice, but whichever direction I headed from Beograd I felt sorry for them, and I am coming from Bosnia ffs.

Republika Srpska is equally bad, I am sure serbs there would be living better life there if Republika Srpska never happened, because it's hard to live worse. But Mihajlovic wouldn't agree, he is probably happy as long as they have "their" entity, even if they are totally fecked up.

When there were floods 5 or 6 months ago in Republike Srpska(and in Federation too), you couldn't send them help because the likes of SNSD didn't allow muslim people from Federacija to help their people because Serbs might find them friendly.
Generally the situation is bad everywhere, that's hardly a secret. Young people from Serbia, RS, and the Federation are all looking to move out of there. Yes, you're quite right, I'm happy that we have our own entity in which we are the majority of population. I am hopeful that us living in separate entities will prevent wars and conflicts. I am also hopeful that this will once and for all conclude the chapter of trying to create an artificial Bosnian nation. History has shown that this is simply not working and it's better for all of us to be on our own. I'm obviously not happy about the economy and wish it was better.
 

Mihajlovic

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You aren't telling things as they were though. For a start, while it is true that the votes were for Yugoslavia to not be seperated, you forgot to mention why this was the case. Milosevic had already stolen the votes of Kosovo and Vojvodina, while Bulatovic (who was a big ally of him) came into power with a coup d'etat. So with not democratic ways, Serbia managed to get 4 of the eight votes required to make any big decision (like seperation) which meant that at-worst case, they could put any decision on deadlock. Lets not forget that the way how Serbia got the vote of Kosovo (for those interested, by brutally forcing a strike to end - which in fact was the beginning of the end for the artificial state - and by arresting the leaders of Kosovo).

Slovenia felt rightly threatened by what happened on Montenegro, Vojvodina and Kosovo. Being a small state made them the next target. So, they had to act (especially considering Milosevic retoric).

In all four states that had referendum, more than 90% of the voters voted for independence (even on Macedonia who were allies of Serbia). Kosovo representatives declared independence (from Serbia, not Yugoslavia) too. On return, Serbia started the wars on Slovenia, Croatia (by creating states there and supporting them), Bosna (after the creation of Republica Srpska) and located a number of forces in Kosovo (also, removing any rights of Albanian population there and firing hundred of thousands of people from their jobs).

So yes, we can argue that Slobodan didn't want exactly the big Serbia (contrary to Seselj who literarry wanted to crush other republics and get most of their territories). He wanted to continue Yugoslavia, him becoming the new Tito, but everything to be controled from Serbia. Which is the same thing in the end.

Izetbegovic confederation plan was the best solution (actually a confederation solution had been mentioned from Slovenia and Croatia leaders before). If it had been accepted, then ultimatelly everything would have ended with the same results. But without 150000+ dead people.



In every war, there are war crimes from both sides. What cannot be denied though, is that Serbia made the absolute majority of those crimes (FFS, in Kosovo there were even 6 month olds babies who were executed). Which was also the reason why almost its entire leadership went for a visit on International Court Justice in Hague.
I think you're mixing up things a bit. According to the constitution of Serbia from 1989 Kosovo and Vojvodina had no voting power. This is why in all negotiations in the 1990s the decisions about the future of Yugoslavia in regards to republics becoming independent were made by the presidents of the six republics. You are right about Macedonia, Gligorov in the late 90s was leaning towards a confederation.

Not sure what you mean by Slovenia feeling threatened? Slovenia was a federal republic whilst Vojvodina and Kosovo were provinces within the republic of Serbia. Slovenia was never a 'target'. The discussions that we had were about the question do republics have the right to break away and become independent, and if, how is this to be decided. This is were the 1974 constitution presented a nightmare because it wasn't clear enough how this process should work. Needless to say that Kardelj and Tito fecked this whole thing up right from the start with their countless changes to the constitution of SFRJ.

Serbia did not 'create states' in Slovenia and Croatia, as you claim. What do you mean that?! Serbia also did not create Republika Srpska, it was created by the Serbs who lived in Bosnia and Hercegovina.

Milosevic did not want to become the new Tito, that would have been impossible as per the SFRJ constitution. How exactly could have everything being 'controlled by Serbia'?

There's no doubt that the confederation plan was the best idea. This was already proposed by Slovenia. I totally agree that Milosevic at that time was a blocker for this idea, being very short-sighted and not comprehending that the entire system as built by Tito et al. was unsustainable. The trigger for the war, however, was also the unilateral recognition of Slovenia and Croatia as independent states by Germany. I think at that time even the U.S. and Britain warned against it saying it's too early. I still think a peaceful solution was possible in 1991 and that eventually Serbia and Montenegro could have been persuaded to vote for a confederation. Negotiations were held throughout 1991 and they could have continued with it until a solution is found.
 

Mihajlovic

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In every war, there are war crimes from both sides. What cannot be denied though, is that Serbia made the absolute majority of those crimes (FFS, in Kosovo there were even 6 month olds babies who were executed). Which was also the reason why almost its entire leadership went for a visit on International Court Justice in Hague.
The massacres on the Serbian population are well documented and I don't want to engage in a debate as to who committed more gruesome crimes. If you have an ounce of dignity you would acknowledge that what Oric, Dudakovic and the entire gang did to the Serbian civilians (including children) in the Srebrenica region in 1992-1994 was utterly despicable. If you want graphic, I could point you to the beheadings committed by the Bosnian muslim forces and the mujaheddins. But even closer to home, members of my family were tortured and mutilated in 1992. So please let's just leave it there. War crimes were committed by all three sides. In proportion to the ethnic make up of Bosnia, most of the casualties were Muslims, followed by Serbs, and then Croats.
 

Amar__

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Could you provide some links please
I am affraid you'll have to trust my word on it, no links, I am talking because it happened to me and people from here when we were trying to help people of Doboj with some packages of food, clean water and stuff. Either you agree that SNSD(RS political party) signs it as their donation or you can have it back.
 

Amar__

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Generally the situation is bad everywhere, that's hardly a secret. Young people from Serbia, RS, and the Federation are all looking to move out of there. Yes, you're quite right, I'm happy that we have our own entity in which we are the majority of population. I am hopeful that us living in separate entities will prevent wars and conflicts. I am also hopeful that this will once and for all conclude the chapter of trying to create an artificial Bosnian nation. History has shown that this is simply not working and it's better for all of us to be on our own. I'm obviously not happy about the economy and wish it was better.
Wars won't start because of geography but because people will keep listening their racist leaders like Dodik, Bakir Izetbegovic and co. People aren't that bad to start wars again, they are just stupid because they listen to their political racist leaders I named.
 

Mihajlovic

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Wars won't start because of geography but because people will keep listening their racist leaders like Dodik, Bakir Izetbegovic and co. People aren't that bad to start wars again, they are just stupid because they listen to their political racist leaders I named.
Well, I'm up for anything that would combat stupidity. What's your problem with RS anyway? Do you support a Yugo-style, unified Bosnia and Hercegovina?
 

Revan

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I think you're mixing up things a bit. According to the constitution of Serbia from 1989 Kosovo and Vojvodina had no voting power. This is why in all negotiations in the 1990s the decisions about the future of Yugoslavia in regards to republics becoming independent were made by the presidents of the six republics. You are right about Macedonia, Gligorov in the late 90s was leaning towards a confederation.

Not sure what you mean by Slovenia feeling threatened? Slovenia was a federal republic whilst Vojvodina and Kosovo were provinces within the republic of Serbia. Slovenia was never a 'target'. The discussions that we had were about the question do republics have the right to break away and become independent, and if, how is this to be decided. This is were the 1974 constitution presented a nightmare because it wasn't clear enough how this process should work. Needless to say that Kardelj and Tito fecked this whole thing up right from the start with their countless changes to the constitution of SFRJ.

Serbia did not 'create states' in Slovenia and Croatia, as you claim. What do you mean that?! Serbia also did not create Republika Srpska, it was created by the Serbs who lived in Bosnia and Hercegovina.

Milosevic did not want to become the new Tito, that would have been impossible as per the SFRJ constitution. How exactly could have everything being 'controlled by Serbia'?

There's no doubt that the confederation plan was the best idea. This was already proposed by Slovenia. I totally agree that Milosevic at that time was a blocker for this idea, being very short-sighted and not comprehending that the entire system as built by Tito et al. was unsustainable. The trigger for the war, however, was also the unilateral recognition of Slovenia and Croatia as independent states by Germany. I think at that time even the U.S. and Britain warned against it saying it's too early. I still think a peaceful solution was possible in 1991 and that eventually Serbia and Montenegro could have been persuaded to vote for a confederation. Negotiations were held throughout 1991 and they could have continued with it until a solution is found.
The constitution of Serbia changed that unilaterally. IN fact, Kosovo and Vojvodina got their autonomy suspended, but they hold their voting powers. Which by then was completely controlled by Serbia (by arresting Kosovo leaders for example).

1974 constitution didn't fecked up the things, but changing that constitution did that. Albanians were the third biggest entity on Yugoslavia and prior 1974 they didn't had a single right.

The massacres on the Serbian population are well documented and I don't want to engage in a debate as to who committed more gruesome crimes. If you have an ounce of dignity you would acknowledge that what Oric, Dudakovic and the entire gang did to the Serbian civilians (including children) in the Srebrenica region in 1992-1994 was utterly despicable. If you want graphic, I could point you to the beheadings committed by the Bosnian muslim forces and the mujaheddins. But even closer to home, members of my family were tortured and mutilated in 1992. So please let's just leave it there. War crimes were committed by all three sides. In proportion to the ethnic make up of Bosnia, most of the casualties were Muslims, followed by Serbs, and then Croats.
'In every war there were massacres casued by both sides'. I said that. There were war cimes from every entity (bar Slovenians) on the wars of Yugoslavia. Whoever says otherwise is lying. So yeah, Serbians, Bosniaks, Croats and Albanians (though there weren't massacres * on Serbian population from Albanians) made war crimes in the war.

It also should be said that the majority of them were done from the Serbians though. And also on each of the wars, the majority of victims were non-Serbians. This can be easily proven by numbers.

* By massacre, I mean stopping and executing a big number of people. Obviously there were killings on smaller numbers, which in my eyes is a war crime.