Dave Smith
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- Oct 14, 2019
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- Anything anti-Dipper
They have already signed the contracts haven't they? If so Barca are already on the hook I believe.Why would they? They still have to pay them.
They have already signed the contracts haven't they? If so Barca are already on the hook I believe.Why would they? They still have to pay them.
Barcelona are bad, but they aren't so bad as to not qualify for CL without Messi.Considering they need to raise 200m by reducing wages or selling players, I don't think one can solely blame Messi. Yeah, his high wages meant that other marquee signings would be asking for money relative to that. However, the issue has been their transfer business at large and who has benefitted from those insane wages.
For example, Coutinho as per some data analytics firms wasn't the most influential Pool player, and they had said that it wouldn't be a wise signing. Yet they paid 140m for him. They paid 105m for Dembele. 120m for Griezmann. Then there's the Pjanic-Arthur swap. All in all, they've wasted 450m on players who have turned out to be very high profile flops and were getting paid insane wages.
Move Messi out, and next season they'd lose another 40m for not getting into CL as well.
That to me is the most worrying thing. I still think he did all that just to get rid of Bartomeu and was some sort of ultimatum by him, or he either resigns or I leave (which he didn't follow through), but his public declarations about not wanting to be there anymore and not believing on the project was a heavy blow for the morale of the team and staff. At that point I think they needed to let him go, or at least that's what any top club should do if a player goes to public say he wants to leave and win stuff somewhere else.They are crippling themselves to convince a player who only a year ago publicly announced his intention to leave.
Arguable, but I really see them struggling for 4th place without Messi.Barcelona are bad, but they aren't so bad as to not qualify for CL without Messi.
Come on, they were what, 15 points ahead of 5th place last season?
Get outArguable, but I really see them struggling for 4th place without Messi.
Did you just ignore the stats that were posted?Get out
Utterly pointless stats.Did you just ignore the stats that were posted?
So why are people (I believe Barcelona fans) okay with him playing for Barcelona?No. He'd get run off the park against any top PL side. Even at City he might struggle. I think he's finished at the top, top level(meaning he's just not a great player at that level anymore). He's just still a fantastic player at the level below that yet
How are they pointless. The team concedes more than they score when Griezmann and Dembele are on the pitch ffs! If it was a positive GD, sure you can make a case but we're talking about a negative GD here.Utterly pointless stats.
As if that team without Messi is struggling for top 4 ffs.
So say today, Messi refuses to sign and goes to City, then Barca shuts shopDid you just ignore the stats that were posted?
They might adapt and change their play style, but that's all hypothetical. The difference in their record when Messi is on the field vs when he isn't is light and day. This is also backed by xG -xGA numbers as well! My point is they'll go through a phase where they'd be in "turmoil" , but will obviously find their footing after a season or two
The point is that Barca, for all their strength are a top side because of 1 player. Remove him and you'd need to change everything as their play style for the last decade has been built around him. If you want to raise 200m, it's wiser to sell off the NPAs than sell one of your only players who's justifying insane wages
Madrid were scoring 100 goals a season in Ronaldo's final years, he left, they now score like 70 and have been nowhere near like struggling for top 4, in their worst season following Ronaldo's exit they were shocking and yet still waltzed to 3rd. And then didn't they go win the fecking league the second season he left despite scoring a lot less?They'll most likely get top 4, but it'll be a fight and it won't be as straightforward as people think it'd be. We're talking about a player who's been contributing to 50% of their league goals pretty much every season. Surely you realize it'd be a massive drop when he leaves
I'm using the raw numbers here. GD difference when he was on the pitch vs when he wasn't.The last time Real Madrid or Barcelona missed out on the top 4 was in 2003, almost twenty years ago. If xG tells you that Barcelona are going to struggle to make it to top 4 without Messi then it's probably an incomplete analysis.
Barca are a top side because they have a shit tonne of starting players of pure quality. Kin ell man.The point is that Barca, for all their strength are a top side because of 1 player. Remove him and you'd need to change everything as their play style for the last decade has been built around him.
They'd need to change their play style significantly, and it might take time.So say today, Messi refuses to sign and goes to City, then Barca shuts shop
The first half of the season was clearly new manager clusterfeck. Once Koeman got to grips and the shadow of that Messi sideshow bollocks went away, Barca improved week on week.In the 1st half of the season when Messi was just playing at the level of an elite player, and not GOAT Barca were lying in 5th or 6th position, let's not forget that
We've just seen Pedri and Busquets give the European Champions a footballing lesson, without Messi. I'll add Alba to that, and we all know the talent of De Jong. They'll play that way regardless and thankfully they have much better options than Morata up top.They'd need to change their play style significantly, and it might take time.
ROnaldo was scontributing to ~50% more goals than 2nd placed played (Benzema) in his last 2 seasons. For Messi, that number is closer to ~90-100% (Suarez and then Griezmann)Madrid were scoring 100 goals a season in Ronaldo's final years, he left, they now score like 70 and have been nowhere near like struggling for top 4, in their worst season following Ronaldo's exit they were shocking and yet still waltzed to 3rd. And then didn't they go win the fecking league the second season he left despite scoring a lot less?
The idea that a team with that much quality (Frenkie de Jong, Pedri, Busquets, Alba, Griezmann etc), suddenly struggles for top 4 because Messi isn't in the side is ridiculous. Let's not make out they are a team of muppets without Messi.
Ahhhh, so it's wasn't because the side was struggling with the new manager and new direction? No, it was cause Messi wasn't playing superhuman, feck me that's convenient.ROnaldo was scontributing to ~50% more goals than 2nd placed played (Benzema) in his last 2 seasons. For Messi, that number is closer to ~90-100% (Suarez and then Griezmann)
And they're a great side, but everything there has been built around a single player. Remember the start of the season, where Messi was playing more like a human? This elite team with Griezmann, Busquets, Alba, Frenkie was 6th or so after 15 odd games. So, let's not assume that great sides cannot collapse.
Messi last season till 31st Dec - 14 appearances 7 goals lying in 6thThe first half of the season was clearly new manager clusterfeck. Once Koeman got to grips and the shadow of that Messi sideshow bollocks went away, Barca improved week on week.
That had absolutely nothing with the side getting used the manager and the entire team getting better as the season progressed, nothing.Messi last season till 31st Dec - 14 appearances 7 goals lying in 6th
Messi from 1st Jan - 21 appearances 23 goals finished 3rd (most points in the league since the start of the year).
Huh? In most instances a team's fortunes are dependent on performances of their team's talisman. It's the same for Bruno here, Salah at Pool and Messi there. If that player is having an indifferent campaign (7 goals from 14 from the teams main goalscorer is average at best), its more than likely that the team will be struggling.Ahhhh, so it's wasn't because the side was struggling with the new manager and new direction? No, it was cause Messi wasn't playing superhuman, feck me that's convenient.
They are shit when he plays because of him, they are amazing when he plays because of him. Turning that into a double win for Messi is impressive shit.
So, what you're telling me is years changed and *click* fortunes of the team changed completely? Every player got used to the manager's tactics? And this date conveniently happened to be round about the same time from when Messi started overachieving his xG numbers again?That had absolutely nothing with the side getting used the manager and the entire team getting better as the season progressed, nothing.
It was all Messi.
feck me can you hear yourself?
because they have to, all players in la liga have them. So if you have to have one, you might as well have a rather unrealistic one, otherwise each player can be bought in an instance.I've always wondered why Barcelona put the most crazy release causes in contracts like 200m here, 400m there etc, seems rather unrealistic.
I think the pandemic thing is a bit of an excuse, for me, they knew they were in a financial mess when they sold Neymar, since then they've still failed to get organised and now find themselves really up against it.
Yes the team bloody clicked, and a functioning confident team obviously helps Messi or any other talisman to increase his productivity.So, what you're telling me is years changed and *click* fortunes of the team changed completely? Every player got used to the manager's tactics? And this date conveniently happened to be round about the same time from when Messi started overachieving his xG numbers again?
There won't really be a transition as long as they're throwing all their money at Messi though. He's the one they're supposed to transition from. You cannot do that when you can't even register the players you've gotten in on free transfers.If a side is scoring almost 1 more goal with Messi than without him per 90, one would like to believe there is value in keeping him, especially when you compare the same stat for Griezmann and Dembele. Eventually Barcelona will find their feet and they're too get lost in the wilderness, but with it wouldn't be as easy a transition as people are expecting.
He was MOM in the league more games than he wasn’t so I wouldn’t be so confident. He is not just a goalscorer he is there main playmaker. For Christ sake they had Braitewaite up front for loads of games last seasonBarcelona are bad, but they aren't so bad as to not qualify for CL without Messi.
Come on, they were what, 15 points ahead of 5th place last season?
And they will adapt without Messi, if you give it some time.ROnaldo was scontributing to ~50% more goals than 2nd placed played (Benzema) in his last 2 seasons. For Messi, that number is closer to ~90-100% (Suarez and then Griezmann)
And they're a great side, but everything there has been built around a single player. Remember the start of the season, where Messi was playing more like a human? This elite team with Griezmann, Busquets, Alba, Frenkie was 6th or so after 15 odd games. So, let's not assume that great sides cannot collapse.
Totally agreed. Any suggestion that Barcelona would struggle to qualify for CL without Messi is hilarious.Barcelona finished outside the top 4 just 7 times from 1950 onwards. That is 71 year. All 7 times they finished either 5th or 6th they will be perfectly fine without Messi
Unintelligent argument. Obviously they’d struggle without Messi, just like every other club without their best player… but they’d buy another player and replace a lot of the numbers, just like every other team would do. And maybe others step up to replace some more, who knows.Arguable, but I really see them struggling for 4th place without Messi.
When Messi was on the pitch vs No Messi, GD difference was 0.89. Among all players who played >1000 minutes, there was none with a higher difference. For reference, the same number for Griezmann was -0.11 and for Dembele -0.25
I think a balance is good. While not spending recklessly, we should also not replace a great player with players like obertan, bebe and Valencia.Did we have some fans who were envy of how clubs like Barca and Real were being operated because their fans somehow involved with their club management or something before?
That’s what I’m wondering too. So far it looks more like a squad clear out rather than a fire sale. Maybe they’re working on getting more loans to cover operating costs?Have they sold any important player? Whenever a club has financial crisis they need to sell some of their star players. I haven't seen any links to FDJ, Pedri, Fati, Messi etc. All I can see is that they are trying to offload some of their undesirable players like Dembele. I even read they were trying to take joao felix from Atletico. What they think of themselves? Too clever? Hope they face some actual punishment.
But the point here is that they cant buy anyone right now to replace him. If you want 200m worth of savings, and you're selling Messi, that alone isnt going to be enough. Griezmann, Dembele, etc. need to be sold regardless and the question then becomes would that side finish in top 3 or would they be in a fight for 4th.Unintelligent argument. Obviously they’d struggle without Messi, just like every other club without their best player… but they’d buy another player and replace a lot of the numbers, just like every other team would do. And maybe others step up to replace some more, who knows.
But you cant have that transition right now. They dont have money to replace him and thats what the argument is. They're effectively replacing Messi with more game time for BrathwaiteThere won't really be a transition as long as they're throwing all their money at Messi though. He's the one they're supposed to transition from. You cannot do that when you can't even register the players you've gotten in on free transfers.