Barcelona: Charged with corruption .... again!

[Ragnar123]

The matter is quite simple. If barcelona broke the law and they can prove it, the punishment should be according to the law. Relegation or whatever. If not, move on like on every other dirty topic sports produced so far over all those years.

The spanish league is a swamp. Full of ethnic hatred between spanish, catalans and basques, corruption and favoritism and is ruled by a president, who is openly far right in politics. It was always like that, people here posted many disgusting scenes in league deciding matches for all sides, not only barcelona. Some things come out on the surface, some things stay hidden forever. Some things are kept as leverage to blackmail or disrupt something when the time is right. It's not the first time, that some shady information against a specific club surfaces at a time the club is doing very well on the pitch. This is not only barcelona related.
Without defending it, this information surfacing right now is no coincidence of course. We have a great form and an 8 point lead to Madrid and next month, with 3 clasicos coming up, the spanish season will be either decided in favor to us or it will get very close again, depending on who wins the clasico's.

That said, I try to focus entirely on the pitch and the players. I can't influence or change anything. Shady things happen everywhere around the clock. In the Bundesliga, there was many years ago a betting scandal involving some referees and I don't want to know, how much and what kind of money billionaires are laundering through the PL for example. And I don't even want to start talking about italian Serie A. In my experience, those examples are like an iceberg, the biggest part always under the surface. To find a clean and honest league in football, you have to search amateur tiers probably where money doesn't play a role.
Like Tour de France. The majority is cheating and it sucks, but you just live with it, if you want to continue to enjoy this sport.

 

[cyberman]

When Barca doubled the payment to him, he doubled the payments to his employees.

https://www.epe.es/es/deportes/20230218/negreira-duplico-sueldo-empleados-barca-doblo-pagos-83110319

They’re his sons. The company was simply used to disguise the payments from Barca and he being on Barcas payroll

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

This entire attempt to frame the debate as being about "the validity of specific refereeing calls" is silly.

Barcelona had been paying a company owned by a member of the referee committee for more than a decade. This is not up for dispute. It is a fact. There are receipts, there is legal registration of the company, there is even a letter from the owner of the company to Barcelona FC. There is solid evidence that this was not a 'real' company: it seemingly only had one client, it had a website that falsely presented them as being in the business of selling keychains, and it stopped making money once the man stopped being a member of the refereeing committee. The people involved have apparently not been providing this service (which made them millions of euros) ever since their one client got rid of them.

This is a clear conflict of interests. It is ethically and morally wrong. The referee committee says it's wrong. The president of La Liga says it's wrong. Any normal person can see this is wrong.

The easy thing is to ignore this moral and ethical malfeasance and make claims like "if Barcelona broke the law...," because legality is a much more favorable territory. Barcelona are unlikely to be found guilty of anything due to lack of evidence. Everyone bravely saying "I will accept the punishment" is fully aware that any punishment is extremely unlikely. It is likely that these reports exist (both the club and the administrator of the company claim they do), and then you can simply point to them and saying "well the work was done" regardless of its quality. Shoddy reports can be justified as Barcelona 'overpaying' or 'being scammed.'

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Without defending it, this information surfacing right now is no coincidence of course. We have a great form and an 8 point lead to Madrid and next month, with 3 clasicos coming up, the spanish season will be either decided in favor to us or it will get very close again, depending on who wins the clasico's.

This doesn't make sense.

First, because there is never a good time for "paying millions of dollars to a guy in the ref committee" to come out.

Second, because you were bad the last three seasons and there were tons of negative news coming out then too.

There are tons of negative news coming out of Barcelona at all times, regardless of how they are doing on the pitch.

 

[GatoLoco]

An 8 point lead, how inconvenient.

Next time they should make it part of the journalistic code of ethics to ask the parties concerned when it is best for them to get a story out.

- Please not this weekend. My mother-in-law is coming home and I have to take the kids to summer camp.

 

[appleman]

This doesn't make sense.

First, because there is never a good time for "paying millions of dollars to a guy in the ref committee" to come out.

Second, because you were bad the last three seasons and there were tons of negative news coming out then too.

There are tons of negative news coming out of Barcelona at all times, regardless of how they are doing on the pitch.

It seems so long ago that Barcelona was always talked about as if they're the one club that does everything right. I don't miss those times.

I think Xavi has become a more respectful person than he was back then, because his arrogance at the time and people justifying it as somehow secretly ethical or some schnitz... let's just say I don't like bad things happening to anyone, but I am glad the farceful curtains are finally being opened up.

 

[Kush]

On the latest The Spanish Football Podcast, Sid Lowe spoke about the Barca referee scandal in depth and these were his points summarised:

• According to tax inquiries, it was discovered that Barca had been paying José María Enríquez Negreira the now former Vice President of the Referees Committee (CTA) from 2001 to 2018 across the tenure of 4 different Barca presidents including the current president Laporta in his first stint.
• Total amount paid in that time was approx. €7 million. For the period of time 2016 to 2018 he was paid around €1.4 million.
• Negreira told Treasury inspectors that he did not have any documentation to prove that a commercial relationship existed because the “technical advice” he provided was verbal, and that the club had hired his services to “ensure that no controversial refereeing decisions went against them” and that the treatment they received from referees was “neutral”.
• CTA (refereea committe) made a statement distancing themselves from Negreira but confirming that having a business relationship with a sitting official went against their internal Code of conduct due to conflict of interest.
• The payments were suspended in 2018, the same year Negreira stepped down from his position as VP of CTA.
• The insinuation by some including Laporta himself that such a story is being put out to harm Barca at a time that Barca is enjoying success as suspicious is BS because the the investigation was done by Cadena SER which is a Catalan news agency (non-Madrid media). Sid praised Cadena SER's investigative journalism and vouched for it's reliability.
• Another new report (confirmed via burofax) added that when the payments were terminated in 2018, Negreira wrote a letter to Barcelona urging them not to end the consultancy or else he would "reveal all the irregularities" that had taken place. Barca still ended the relationship at that time.
• President of La Liga, Tebas, has come out and confirmed that the league cannot take any action on the issue as the statute of limitations for the league is 3 years and this fall's outside that window.

Is Sid Lowe also a Florentino Perez stooge or openly far right with a dislike for Barca? If so, I shall remove this post.

 

[Ragnar123]

Is Sid Lowe also a Florentino Perez stooge or openly far right with a dislike for Barca? If so, I shall remove this post.

Those facts are well known by now. Even Laporta admitted that. Barca payed Negreira to advise and consult them in referee questions. Of course it looks shady, bad and is a conflict of interest, but what's more important and what everybody thinks is the question: "Did barca bribe the referees?"
So far there is zero evidence for it, apart from based youtube compilations. Negreira didn't hint anything in that direction and he is probably the one leaking the whole thing, because barca didn't react to his blackmail and still ended the payment. Of course he is mad that his comfortable pay check ended.
Some referees from that time were asked about that topic and they all said, they were never approached or pressured to favor Barcelona on the pitch.

Those are the facts so far. Now everyone is free to make up his own mind based on this. Either there is a big conspiracy where everyone involved in this is lying to cover himself, or it's just as Laporta said. I consultation job, which just looks bad from the outside because of the conflict of interest.

 

[Acrobat7]

Those facts are well known by now. Even Laporta admitted that. Barca payed Negreira to advise and consult them in referee questions. Of course it looks shady, bad and is a conflict of interest, but what's more important and what everybody thinks is the question: "Did barca bribe the referees?"
So far there is zero evidence for it, apart from based youtube compilations. Negreira didn't hint anything in that direction and he is probably the one leaking the whole thing, because barca didn't react to his blackmail and still ended the payment. Of course he is mad that his comfortable pay check ended.
Some referees from that time were asked about that topic and they all said, they were never approached or pressured to favor Barcelona on the pitch.

Those are the facts so far. Now everyone is free to make up his own mind based on this. Either there is a big conspiracy where everyone involved in this is lying to cover himself, or it's just as Laporta said. I consultation job, which just looks bad from the outside because of the conflict of interest.

The facts are that BARCELONA PAID MILLIONS FOR OVER A DECADE TO THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE SPANISH REFS.

 

[carvajal]

Those facts are well known by now. Even Laporta admitted that. Barca payed Negreira to advise and consult them in referee questions. Of course it looks shady, bad and is a conflict of interest, but what's more important and what everybody thinks is the question: "Did barca bribe the referees?"
So far there is zero evidence for it, apart from based youtube compilations. Negreira didn't hint anything in that direction and he is probably the one leaking the whole thing, because barca didn't react to his blackmail and still ended the payment. Of course he is mad that his comfortable pay check ended.
Some referees from that time were asked about that topic and they all said, they were never approached or pressured to favor Barcelona on the pitch.

Those are the facts so far. Now everyone is free to make up his own mind based on this. Either there is a big conspiracy where everyone involved in this is lying to cover himself, or it's just as Laporta said. I consultation job, which just looks bad from the outside because of the conflict of interest.

Obviously the referees, if they are involved, are not going to admit that they have been bribed.
That a payment triggered a referee decision will be impossible to prove, unless the prosecution's investigation manages to follow the money and someone admits it to get off the hook.
We will also have to look at referees who have been promoted, relegated or awarded with copa del rey finals, for example.
The blackmail, if there was any, was recent, we will have to see if it was from the second era of Laporta or from Bartomeu, but what about before?
Bear in mind that an assistant referee is paid 30,000/year, not half a million euros.
The mere fact of paying him is already an offence (in fact simply obtaining the confidential reports of every referee), whether or not there are changes in the refereeing decisions.

 

[Niemans]

The facts are that BARCELONA PAID MILLIONS FOR OVER A DECADE TO THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE SPANISH REFS.

And the facts are that Barcelona have been harmed in the Capello League, in Mourinho's, in the last match against Atlético de Madrid and in Zidane's first. Barcelona with normal arbitrations would have four more leagues, Real Madrid 3 less and Atlético de Madrid one less. These are also facts, but here people do not want to scrutinize and analyze them.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Either there is a big conspiracy where everyone involved in this is lying to cover himself, or it's just as Laporta said. I consultation job, which just looks bad from the outside because of the conflict of interest.

It does not "look bad from the outside." It is bad.

 

[Niemans]

Those facts are well known by now. Even Laporta admitted that. Barca payed Negreira to advise and consult them in referee questions. Of course it looks shady, bad and is a conflict of interest, but what's more important and what everybody thinks is the question: "Did barca bribe the referees?"
So far there is zero evidence for it, apart from based youtube compilations. Negreira didn't hint anything in that direction and he is probably the one leaking the whole thing, because barca didn't react to his blackmail and still ended the payment. Of course he is mad that his comfortable pay check ended.
Some referees from that time were asked about that topic and they all said, they were never approached or pressured to favor Barcelona on the pitch.

Those are the facts so far. Now everyone is free to make up his own mind based on this. Either there is a big conspiracy where everyone involved in this is lying to cover himself, or it's just as Laporta said. I consultation job, which just looks bad from the outside because of the conflict of interest.

It is the same what you say and there is no evidence.
It does not matter that the arbitrations have harmed Barcelona in several leagues and they dismantle their conspiracy theories.
It does not matter that the protagonists have said that they have never had external pressures or influences.
It does not matter that this ex referee has not had contact with the referees.
For certain people the only thing that matters is to throw shit on a certain club.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

And the facts are that Barcelona have been harmed in the Capello League, in Mourinho's, in the last match against Atlético de Madrid and in Zidane's first. Barcelona with normal arbitrations would have four more leagues, Real Madrid 3 less and Atlético de Madrid one less.

I want to put some numbers so that people understand what Niemans is saying here.

Starting from Capello's league, there have been 16 league titles. Barcelona won 8 of these 16 titles.

His argument is that Barcelona should have won 12 of these 16 titles.

75% of all league titles. 75% of all league titles, in a period in which their rivals were a club that won 5 CLs and had 3 Balon d'Ors, and a two-time CL finalist and two-time EL winner.

His argument is that the only league titles Barcelona should have lost are the ones where they finished:

• 18 points behind Real Madrid.
• 5 points behind Real Madrid.
• 7 points behind Atletico Madrid and 5 behind Real Madrid.
• 12 points behind Real Madrid.

That is an average of 10 points behind the champion.

Niemans is willing to accept two title races in 16 years in which his club competed but could not win (Barcelona were MIA in 07/08 and 21/22).

It must be truly exhausting to live like this, seriously.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

It is the same what you say and there is no evidence.

The evidence is that you were caught paying millions of dollars to a man in the referee committee. You can cry, stomp your feet, and despair all you want about it, it won't matter one bit.

 

[carvajal]

And the facts are that Barcelona have been harmed in the Capello League, in Mourinho's, in the last match against Atlético de Madrid and in Zidane's first. Barcelona with normal arbitrations would have four more leagues, Real Madrid 3 less and Atlético de Madrid one less. These are also facts, but here people do not want to scrutinize and analyze them.

Imagine the investigation freezes right now.
According to the proven payments (today El Mundo published a new one of 750000 through an executive) .7 million to obtain neutrality, etc, what do you think would be a fair sanction?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Imagine the investigation freezes right now.
According to the proven payments (today El Mundo published a new one of 750000 through an executive) .7 million to obtain neutrality, etc, what do you think would be a fair sanction?

Barcelona being granted legal rights to feck anyone's wives if they win the league.

 

[Acrobat7]

And the facts are that Barcelona have been harmed in the Capello League, in Mourinho's, in the last match against Atlético de Madrid and in Zidane's first. Barcelona with normal arbitrations would have four more leagues, Real Madrid 3 less and Atlético de Madrid one less. These are also facts, but here people do not want to scrutinize and analyze them.

You should look up the definition of „facts“

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The manager of DASNIL 95 was Javier Enriquez, the son of Enriquez Negreira. He has a website in which his CV is up. He's the one who claimed the written reports were real.

You will notice that there is very little reference to doing any work for Barcelona FC there. It only mentions being an "external consultant" in 2018.

You have a company that is making hundreds of thousands of euros, doing consulting work for Barcelona FC. You are its manager. You are a professional in football, working for one of the biggest players in the industry. And you don't put it on your CV?

 

[Acheron]

He'll clarify that he meant "decisions didn't go against them unfairly, and all that decision making was neutral and not biased".

We're just arguing semantics right now but it's still shady and corrupt as feck. Even if we take his word for granted does that mean that the teams that aren't paying aren't receiving the same 'neutral refereeing' treatment?

I mean like wtf, there's no such thing as a neutral, or unbiased, treatment after paying someone more than 1 million euros.

 

[arthurka]

Everyone in Spain (bar Barca's fans) knew this was coming.
The refereering they have received these past years is outrageous. Noone that truly follows La Liga can be surprised about these recent allegations. it was famously called “Villarato” in Spain, due to Miguel Angel Villar being the Spanish FA president at the moment.

The referee payments allegedly happened between 2003 and 2018. The following image shows the penalties and red cards awarded to and against each La Liga teams throughtout all those years (spanish but easily understandable):
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FpAarTvXwAE1F0a?format=jpg&name=medium
It seems interesting that Barcelona has 48 net red cards in all those years. No other team is above 24, and only two above 20. Real (a somewhat comparable team in La Liga) has -4.


For those who desire to read more about Barca´s affairs:
-There was a recent investigation around Albert Benaiges. He was the coordinator of grassroot football for Barca for 20 years during 2 spells. The last one until 2021 when he resigned the moment the scandal became public. He was accused of sexual abuse of children. There were more than 60 testimonies of his abuse during the 1980s and 1990s on a school from Barcelona (where he was also a PE teacher). Before Laporta re-hired him he was terminated in Mexico and Dominican Republic also with allegations to minor abuse. 19 people denounced him. The case was closed as the crimes had prescribed. You can still can read some of the victims testimonies online. Proof: https://www.thescore.com/esp_fed/news/2287202

-Another interesting case is Barca´s more than possible doping. I will just give you a few glimpses:
-UEFA fined Barca 30.000€ in 2010 for not notifying anti-doping officials of a change in their training schedule. This training change led to UEFA not being able to do their doping test that day. Proof: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pep-guardiolas-barcelona-breached-the-whereabouts-rule-wrqwrf78n
-UEFA did a surprise doping testing on Barcelona players the 23/02/2011. They did not test Xavi, Valdés, Puyol and Messi as they were injured that day. Funnilly enough Messi was able to play the full 90 minutes 3 days before the test (20/02/2011) and 3 days after the test (26/2/2011). Either the injury appeared and disappeared magically or… he just avoided the doping test just like Barca did the year before, although this time “legally”.
Proof of the testing: https://www.elconfidencial.com/depo...be-por-sorpresa-un-control-antidoping_328593/
Proof that Messi, Xavi, Valdés and Puyol did not train with the rest of the team that day: https://www.larazon.es/historico/11...o-sin-xavi-valdes-ni-puyol-OLLA_RAZON_360407/
Full game played by Messi 3 days before doping test: https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-barcelona_athletic-bilbao/index/spielbericht/1036310
Full game played by Messi 3 days after doping test: https://www.transfermarkt.es/rcd-mallorca_fc-barcelona/index/spielbericht/1036312

Barca is just full of shady guys. More examples:
-Unsurprisingly, 2 of Barca´s ex-presidents ended up in jail:
-Josep Luis Núñez (spent 2 years and a half in prison)
-Sandro Rosell (spent 21 months in prison)
Will they be soon followed by Bertomeu? We will see. Agustí Montal Costa, who stopped being president in 1977 is the last Barca´s president to have not gone to a court to testify as defendant.

-Piqué was in cahoots with Luis Rubiales (president of Spanish FA) while he was a player and the captain of Barcelona. Basically he took part in the negotiations of the newest format of the Spanish Supercup that takes place in Saudi Arabia and therefore gets (and is still getting) a big cut for every edition of the tournament (6M€ each and every single year). Piqué resigned quietly in the middle of this season when all this surfaced and now everyone has forgotten about it. Rubiales never resigned and still holds the job. Proof: https://barcauniversal.com/gerard-p...ok-e6-million-in-saudi-arabia-super-cup-deal/
Sadly, this corrupt Luis Rubiales who is getting rich along with Piqué while he was a player, was the fresh-blood that was supposed to change things for the better when he replaced Miguel Ángel Villar, the previous Spanish FA president of whom I talked about in the very first paragraph.

It is of course known that Piqué wants to be president of the club some day. He will probably get there, he really has the moral character needed for the position.

-Pep: the bald hypocrite fraud was Barca´s manager all those times the club managed to evade doping tests. And just watch him nowadays defend the obviously illegal actuations of City while of course playing the victim card.

-Speaking about victim cards. Barca´s fans love to reinforce the idea that their club was harassed by Franco´s regime. On the other hand, Franco pardoned Barca´s debt twice, which explains why Barca awarded him with two Medals of Honor. You can easily search for pictures of these on google if you want.


TL;DR: Barca is an inmoral, filthy club full. The true MVP is the PR team that somehow shielded all of this from public opinion and made them look like a reasonable club.

Thanks for this, nothing to see here

 

[FreckBarca]

Those facts are well known by now. Even Laporta admitted that. Barca payed Negreira to advise and consult them in referee questions. Of course it looks shady, bad and is a conflict of interest, but what's more important and what everybody thinks is the question: "Did barca bribe the referees?"
So far there is zero evidence for it

It is the same what you say and there is no evidence.

It is easy to say that when you look past the evidence that is presented before you.
Look up the numbers of red cards awarded in those years to each La Liga team (specially the difference between those awarded against them and against the teams they faced). Post them here, and let us see how you argue that there is no evidence of ref wrongdoing.

In case you don't feel like searching for this data just look the message below.

So far we only know in detail that 1.6M€ total payments happened between 2016 and 2018. In this timeframe in La Liga Barca had 3 penalties given against them and 33 penalties against their rivals. In this lapse of time Barca also had only 3 players sent off while 28 rivals were sent off.


We also know that the additional payments happened since Joan Gaspart presidency (2000-2003). This tweet has a graph that shows the difference between red cards awarded against the teams a club faced and the red cards awarded against that club, from season 2004/2005 until 2020/2021 in La Liga (could not find another time frame but even this one really shows something interesting)


In this time period Barca had a net positive of 55 red cards. The next club with the best ratio is Sevilla with 17. Atlético has 10, Athletic 6, Valencia -5, Real Madrid -5.

I don't see how this points out to something different than a clear and consistent biased ref actuation throughout the years.

Or are you, may be, gonna dismiss this message because of "ad hominem reasons as big as Everest".
Remember that?

And don't try to beat around the bush showing that one time a ref did something you did not want him to do.

What is your opinion, based on facts, on red cards awarded in La Liga during the years you paid Negreira? Specially comparing Barca and non Barca teams

 

[FreckBarca]

Laporta, during his past presidency, made payments to the vicepresident of Spanish refs. He even incremented by 4 the amount that he was being paid before.

I am amazed we have not heard any calls for his resignation from either the Spanish FA or Barca fans.
Are Barca fans really ok with him being the president today after all this?

 

[SirReginald]

At this point are the resident Barcelona “fans” actually fans or are they part of a ****. They literally cannot accept that paying money to officials is wrong. Most companies have ethics policies that forbid the giving or receiving of gifts involving outside parties because of the influence it can have.

The fact that this is someone whose position could jeopardize the entire integrity of the league is unbelievable. Barcelona are trying to brush this under the rug but this is huge. If they are found to have influenced results (which looks suspiciously likely by previous posters statistics) then the legal implications from many industry’s involving the sport could bring them down with their already terrible financial state. Betting companies for example will definitely come after them if they’re customers look for refunds. Teams who lost out on medals or placements will come after them. UEFA may come after them. La Liga may come after them. They’re fecked if guilty. Plain and simple.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Mes que un shitshow.

 

[Zehner]

It is easy to say that when you look past the evidence that is presented before you.
Look up the numbers of red cards awarded in those years to each La Liga team (specially the difference between those awarded against them and against the teams they faced). Post them here, and let us see how you argue that there is no evidence of ref wrongdoing.

In case you don't feel like searching for this data just look the message below.



I don't see how this points out to something different than a clear and consistent biased ref actuation throughout the years.

Or are you, may be, gonna dismiss this message because of "ad hominem reasons as big as Everest".
Remember that?

And don't try to beat around the bush showing that one time a ref did something you did not want him to do.

What is your opinion, based on facts, on red cards awarded in La Liga during the years you paid Negreira? Specially comparing Barca and non Barca teams

No offense but what you present here is definitely not evidence and arguably not even indication. It already starts with the metric you chose. There has for instance been an empirical study in Germany that investigated whether or not there was a 'Bayern bonus' in terms of referee decisions and it used wrong offsite calls. Even 'wrong red cards' would be a weak metric because it is hard to quantify whether it was wrong due to the room for interpretation. But you didn't even do that, you went with red cards. It is absolutely possible that Barca deserved that net positive of 55 red cards over a time period of 20 years. That's between two or three cards per year less than their opponents. Nothing crazy for a top team. Especially one that has so much possession and probably the most successful dribbles over that period of time.


Now the question is how the difference between Barca and Madrid came to be. But even that is explainable since Barca - however annoying their holier than thou attitude might be to you - generally commit far less red worthy offences in my perception. They didn't have players such as Pepe or Ramos who were among the most notorious in world football during their primes, Suarez aside - and he conducted himself somewhat for Barca, too. I even struggle to think of one like Cristiano or Zidane who were always good for a loss of control, hair grab, slap, etc. Barca may dive, play act and storm the refs but those aren't red worthy rule violations.

And even more so, if what Barca claim is correct (that they paid referees to consult them how to conduct) it would actually explain why there is a difference. So your 'study design' lacks on that front as well: It is not suited to prove their defense as false.

Finally, I doubt that manipulation on the scale you're suggesting is even possible. If it happens then I assume rather on a game basis. What you're suggesting would basically mean that the entirety of the Spanish refereeing institution was corrupted for 20 years. That would include so many 'conspirators' that it is impossible to control. Have you listened to the descriptions of Hoyzer (a German ref guilty of match fixing) on how they were recruited, instructed, etc.?

By the way, I'm not saying they in general aren't guilty of what you accuse them of. But your line of argument is fundamentally wrong.

 

[cyberman]

Ernesto Valverde claims he was unaware of the existence of referee reports at Barça, despite the club saying it received them for the coaching staff

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

And even more so, if what Barca claim is correct (that they paid referees to consult them how to conduct) it would actually explain why there is a difference.

This is incorrect. Barcelona are not the only club that pays former referees to consult on these matters. Real Madrid and others do the same. So going by your logic, there should be no difference.

It also leads to more questions. If Barcelona were receiving an excellent, legitimate consulting service that allowed them to reduce the number of cards and penalties they received, why did they stop paying for it in 2018? Why was the company providing this service unable to continue offering it elsewhere?

But even that is explainable since Barca - however annoying their holier than thou attitude might be to you - generally commit far less red worthy offences in my perception. They didn't have players such as Pepe or Ramos who were among the most notorious in world football during their primes, Suarez aside - and he conducted himself somewhat for Barca, too.

If you are going to make methodology criticisms, I would suggest that you don't also engage in ad hoc explanations based on gut feelings.

Here is a ranking of La Liga players based on most yellow cards. Ramos is at the top of the list, with 173. But Pepe is nowhere near the top of the list, having received 56 yellow cards. Way ahead of him are Busquets (8th on the list with 127 cards), Alves (9th on the list with 124), Piqué (13th, 116), and Puyol (94th, 76).

As for red cards, Ramos tops the list with 20. Alves is 18th with 10, Pique is 34th with 9. Pepe only received 3 and is nowhere on the top list. Varane received 2.

 

[Denis79]

Barcelona cheaters?! How shocking...

 

[Zehner]

This is incorrect. Barcelona are not the only club that pays former referees to consult on these matters. Real Madrid and others do the same. So going by your logic, there should be no difference.

It also leads to more questions. If Barcelona were receiving an excellent, legitimate consulting service that allowed them to reduce the number of cards and penalties they received, why did they stop paying for it in 2018? Why was the company providing this service unable to continue offering it elsewhere?



I would suggest that you shouldn't try to do "test design" or "empirical study" criticisms, and then also post something like this, which is a "gut feeling" criticism.

The difference is, I'm not making conclusions or claiming anything. The burden of proof isn't on me.

By the way, honest question: What's the difference between Barca's payments and the ones you mentioned by other clubs? What makes Barca's so delicate? That the receiver still had influence on refereeing decisions?

 

[Mickeza]

So is anyone actually going to investigate this? La Liga have said they aren’t going to due to it happening too long ago right?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

By the way, honest question: What's the difference between Barca's payments and the ones you mentioned by other clubs? What makes Barca's so delicate? That the receiver still had influence on refereeing decisions?

The difference is what you mention (influence on refereeing decisions), but also that Barcelona's professional relationship to this man was concealed. Real Madrid have a guy on payroll, who was announced publicly, gave interviews to the press, etc. There was no mystery to anything.

This is not an investigation on Barcelona FC initially. It is an investigation on a company that reported information that the tax authorities considered 'strange.' After looking into it, they still think it looks strange.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

So is anyone actually going to investigate this? La Liga have said they aren’t going to due to it happening too long ago right?

The Spanish prosecutor's office is investigating the matter.

 

[FreckBarca]

The difference is, I'm not making conclusions or claiming anything. The burden of proof isn't on me.

By the way, honest question: What's the difference between Barca's payments and the ones you mentioned by other clubs? What makes Barca's so delicate? That the receiver still had influence on refereeing decisions?

That's simple enough.

Many teams hire retired refs, as they are experts in the laws of the football, to help them analyze refs tendencies and prepared for them. Also to avoid committing technical mistakes during the home games. But that's retired refs with no influence. This is totally legal and done openly.
For example Barca are paying their retired ref 30.000€ a year for this.

The thing is they paid the VP of the refereering comitee 7M€ for at least 18 years while he was ACTIVE and had influence. Up to 40.000€ a month of hidden payments noone knew about and this dude declared to the Spanish Tax Agency that he was being paid to avoid adverse refereering against them so it was all neutral.

It is absolutely possible that Barca deserved that net positive of 55 red cards over a time period of 20 years. That's between two or three cards per year less than their opponents. Nothing crazy for a top team. Especially one that has so much possession and probably the most successful dribbles over that period of time.

Following your argument: would you say, then, that they had more than double the possession and successful dribbles than Real Madrid, Sevilla, Valencia, Athletic, Atlético put together?
Barca net red cards: 55
Rest of the teams net red cards: 23
(17+ 10 + 6+ (-5) + (-5)=23)

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

My honest opinions on this matter:

• You can't buy all refs, especially not with only 500k. I can't really say that any league title was 'bought' by anyone.
• Barcelona were clearly trying to influence refereeing decisions. It is basically impossible to explain this level of concealment and subterfuge in the service of acts that are fine and harmless.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

The matter is quite simple. If barcelona broke the law and they can prove it, the punishment should be according to the law. Relegation or whatever. If not, move on like on every other dirty topic sports produced so far over all those years.

The spanish league is a swamp. Full of ethnic hatred between spanish, catalans and basques, corruption and favoritism and is ruled by a president, who is openly far right in politics. It was always like that, people here posted many disgusting scenes in league deciding matches for all sides, not only barcelona. Some things come out on the surface, some things stay hidden forever. Some things are kept as leverage to blackmail or disrupt something when the time is right. It's not the first time, that some shady information against a specific club surfaces at a time the club is doing very well on the pitch. This is not only barcelona related.
Without defending it, this information surfacing right now is no coincidence of course. We have a great form and an 8 point lead to Madrid and next month, with 3 clasicos coming up, the spanish season will be either decided in favor to us or it will get very close again, depending on who wins the clasico's.

That said, I try to focus entirely on the pitch and the players. I can't influence or change anything. Shady things happen everywhere around the clock. In the Bundesliga, there was many years ago a betting scandal involving some referees and I don't want to know, how much and what kind of money billionaires are laundering through the PL for example. And I don't even want to start talking about italian Serie A. In my experience, those examples are like an iceberg, the biggest part always under the surface. To find a clean and honest league in football, you have to search amateur tiers probably where money doesn't play a role.
Like Tour de France. The majority is cheating and it sucks, but you just live with it, if you want to continue to enjoy this sport.

The problem with the Lance Armstrong defence (everyone was doing it so I had to do it) is that its still cheating.

Also are you saying that all the clubs in all the leagues are paying referees millions of Euros under the table? I doubt that is true and if it was its still cheating.

 

[giorno]

The difference is, I'm not making conclusions or claiming anything. The burden of proof isn't on me.

By the way, honest question: What's the difference between Barca's payments and the ones you mentioned by other clubs? What makes Barca's so delicate? That the receiver still had influence on refereeing decisions?

The other clubs hired EX refs, people who were not working with or for the committee anymore. They were regularly declared, all above board. Barcelona were paying a guy who was actively in charge of the refs, and did so under the table

 

[Zehner]

The difference is what you mention (influence on refereeing decisions), but also that Barcelona's professional relationship to this man was concealed. Real Madrid have a guy on payroll, who was announced publicly, gave interviews to the press, etc. There was no mystery to anything.

This is not an investigation on Barcelona FC initially. It is an investigation on a company that reported information that the tax authorities considered 'strange.' After looking into it, they still think it looks strange.

The other clubs hired EX refs, people who were not working with or for the committee anymore. They were regularly declared, all above board. Barcelona were paying a guy who was actively in charge of the refs, and did so under the table

Thanks! Highly suspicious indeed

 

[the_cliff]

Are Barcelona fans really arguing and making a case for how paying the Vice President of refs somehow isn't shady ?

Here's the thing even IF as you claim you weren't actually bribing refs or trying to influence decisions, you still paid the vice president of the referee association 7mill Euros in hidden payments. Now I assume the people that run Barca aren't complete idiots (although there's definitely an argument of them being exactly that) but even a 5 year old would know that that looks shady as hell if it ever comes out.

I think Barca were probably paying to influence decisions or thought they were and the VP took them for mugs and didn't give them their moneys worth.

 

[RoyH1]

Thanks! Highly suspicious indeed

To make it more suspicious, a manager who worked for Barsa (Valverde) said he never saw any report from the firm that was supposedly working for Barsa.
It all looks so fishy