Belfast Rugby Players Rape Trial

[Pogue Mahone]

All four men just found not guilty on all charges.

This is going to cause a massive shit-storm on social media over the next few days/weeks...

 

[Rooney24]

Absolutely. Its caused one the last 9 weeks.

It looked really bad for them at the outset of the trial from what I read. But as it went on I dont think the prosecution proved their case.

Who knows what really went on but the burden falls on the prosecution to prove it and they failed to do that.

 

[villain]

Rape conviction from a reported crime is approximately 11%? There or thereabouts at least, so it's hardly a shock. The issue is the way rape is currently tried.

All this will do is discourage rape victims coming forward to be honest, as if they needed any more reasons.

 

[esmufc07]

As ever with these cases they are so hard to prove and there tends to be very little evidence, and as such it often comes down to one person's word against another. Which isn't enough to satisfy guilt beyond all reasonable doubt.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

But as it went on I dont think the prosecution proved their case

For obvious reasons a rape trial doesn't have to prove things to the same degree. I haven't followed this case to comment?

All this will do is discourage rape victims coming forward to be honest, as if they needed any more reasons.

Why do you say that?

 

[villain]

Why do you say that?

The victim in question followed through the procedure that everyone is encouraged to do when they are the victim of rape.
In the end she was still slut shamed, put on trial for weeks, her underwear was passed around the court etc.

Conviction rates are ridiculously low when it comes to these things, and prior to conviction the amount of people who come forward is even lower because of the way these incidents are handled.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The victim in question followed through the procedure that everyone is encouraged to do when they are the victim of rape.
In the end she was still slut shamed, put on trial for weeks, her underwear was passed around the court etc.

Conviction rates are ridiculously low when it comes to these things, and prior to conviction the amount of people who come forward is even lower because of the way these incidents are handled.

It is kind of depressing that when she first told her friends about what happened they pressed her to tell the authorities but she didn't want to because she predicted that this would happen. That said, I'm not sure how the case could have been handled any differently?

 

[villain]

It is kind of depressing that when she first told her friends about what happened they pressed her to tell the authorities but she didn't want to because she predicted that this would happen.

Precisely. You have to be incredibly brave to go through that whole procedure just to have it thrown back in your face?

Can't say i'm brave enough to have done what she did.

 

[sullydnl]

Obviously it's a difficult thing to prove but even still, after everything that came out in court it's a very grim verdict. A lot of people will rightly be angry.

 

[Rooney24]

The victim in question followed through the procedure that everyone is encouraged to do when they are the victim of rape.
In the end she was still slut shamed, put on trial for weeks, her underwear was passed around the court etc.

Conviction rates are ridiculously low when it comes to these things, and prior to conviction the amount of people who come forward is even lower because of the way these incidents are handled.

I agree with the general view you are making here. But I cant say I agree with this. How was she slut shamed? She has complete anonymity, they dont. It wasnt her on trial, it was them. And the fact is (whether we agree or not) they have been found not guilty so should be free to get on with their lives but as we know mud sticks and this will follow them forever now. Im not dimishing what she went through or supporting them or the verdict Im just playing a little devils advocate I guess given the not guilty verdict.

Given that the very nature of the crime usually comes down to one persons word against the other (and in this case 4 persons word against 1) added to the fact that the burden of proof will always fall on the prosecution side then its most likely for those reasons its a very low conviction rate. Something needs to change there I think. Im sure there are loads of cases where actual rape took place and people have walked free, I mean the statistic you quoted would support that. It cant be that 89% of rape cases are false claims?

In any case no one comes out of this looking very good. They certainly dont get any credit for their treatment of women regardless of the verdict.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I agree with the general view you are making here. But I cant say I agree with this. How was she slut shamed? She has complete anonymity, they dont. It wasnt her on trial, it was them. And the fact is (whether we agree or not) they have been found not guilty so should be free to get on with their lives but as we know mud sticks and this will follow them forever now. Im not dimishing what she went through or supporting them or the verdict Im just playing a little devils advocate I guess given the not guilty verdict.

Given that the very nature of the crime usually comes down to one persons word against the other (and in this case 4 persons word against 1) added to the fact that the burden of proof will always fall on the prosecution side then its most likely for those reasons its a very low conviction rate. Something needs to change there I think. Im sure there are loads of cases where actual rape took place and people have walked free, I mean the statistic you quoted would support that. It cant be that 89% of rape cases are false claims?

In any case no one comes out of this looking very good. They certainly dont get any credit for their treatment of women regardless of the verdict.

Yeah, agree with all of this. If we accept that the verdict is the right one then it’s the reputation of the men that has been far more damaged than that of the girl making the accusation. To an extent that’s deserved because, at best, they have a very immature attitude towards the opposite sex. Still, though, this case will hang over them forever and - like you say - mud sticks. And all because of a false accusation from someone who maintained her anonymity throughout.

If the jury came to the wrong conclusion then this is a horrendous miscarriage of justice but that’s a different discussion. The issue of the jury making the right call aside, the process will have caused much more consequences for the accused than the accuser.

 

[poleglass red]

followed this case very closely as I'm from Belfast. I agree with the decision. I think the girl involved immediately regretted what she'd done, partly because she thought at one point someone had filmed her, but sad to say regret does not equate to not consenting. We've all done things esp on drink we regret, it doesn't mean we didn't consent.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

I've held off for weeks mentioning this in the usual rugby thread, but regardless of the outcome these lads seem like scumbags from their text messages.

 

[villain]

I agree with the general view you are making here. But I cant say I agree with this. How was she slut shamed? She has complete anonymity, they dont. It wasnt her on trial, it was them. And the fact is (whether we agree or not) they have been found not guilty so should be free to get on with their lives but as we know mud sticks and this will follow them forever now. Im not dimishing what she went through or supporting them or the verdict Im just playing a little devils advocate I guess given the not guilty verdict.

Given that the very nature of the crime usually comes down to one persons word against the other (and in this case 4 persons word against 1) added to the fact that the burden of proof will always fall on the prosecution side then its most likely for those reasons its a very low conviction rate. Something needs to change there I think. Im sure there are loads of cases where actual rape took place and people have walked free, I mean the statistic you quoted would support that. It cant be that 89% of rape cases are false claims?

In any case no one comes out of this looking very good. They certainly dont get any credit for their treatment of women regardless of the verdict.

Having anonymity doesn’t exclude her from being slut shamed.

I don’t disagree with much else of what you said.

 

[sullydnl]

Yeah, agree with all of this. If we accept that the verdict is the right one then it’s the reputation of the men that has been far more damaged than that of the girl making the accusation. To an extent that’s deserved because, at best, they have a very immature attitude towards the opposite sex. Still, though, this case will hang over them forever and - like you say - mud sticks. And all because of a false accusation from someone who maintained her anonymity throughout.

If the jury came to the wrong conclusion then this is a horrendous miscarriage of justice but that’s a different discussion. The issue of the jury making the right call aside, the process will have caused much more consequences for the accused than the accuser.

Unproven accusation. Rather an important distinction between the two terms.

 

[DOTA]

Unproven accusation. Rather an important distinction between the two terms.

Quite.

Also pretty sure Pogue didn't really mean that and typed the wrong thing because brains do things with patterns.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Unproven accusation. Rather an important distinction between the two terms.

Yes, sorry. Absolutely. But had the accusation been completely false the process would be the same. And my point was about the fairness of the process rather than whether or not the correct decision was made in this case.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Jaysus. Jackson’s legal team have gone out swinging.

“On behalf of Patrick Jackson we are grateful to the jury for reaching a common sense verdict of not guilty to all counts.

Paddy has been consistent in his denials and his account. Consistency had never been a feature of the complainant’s evidence long before she entered the witness box.

So these acquittals should come as no surprise. Paddy leaves court for the last time today, as he entered it almost 10 weeks ago, an innocent man. The prosecution made much of a perceived privilege position provided by virtue of Paddy being an International rugby player.

We say that it was his status as a famous sportsman that drove the decision to prosecute in the first place. Much has been said in the course of this trial by way of criticism of the police investigation.

We have little to add to what has already been said but it is our belief that this investigation has been characterised by a blind eye being turn to the inadequacies in the evidence of the complainant combined with apparent investigative bias.

Paddy and his parents have paid a heavy price personally, professionally and financially. This price was paid despite the fact he is and has never been anything other than entirely innocent.

On the face of it, this robust assertion of its independence by the jury embodied in these acquittals may suggest that the trial process is in good health. That is not the case.

Vile commentary expressed on social media, going well beyond fair comment, have polluted the sphere of public discourse and raise real concerns about the integrity of the trial process.

To that end we want to thank the learned trial judge for her management of this trial in the face of an onslaught of toxic content particularly on Twitter. Several days of this trial were lost due to problems thrown up by the intrusive infection of the process by social media.

All the lawyers have been distracted by having to man the barriers against a flood of misinformed, misconceived and malicious content on the internet particularly during the vital last phase of this trial and, worryingly , even at the hands of public servants who should know better. There is no reason to believe that this problem will not worsen.

To that end, we invite the office of the Lord Chief Justice, the Attorney General and the Public Prosecution Service to enter in to fresh discussions with us to look at more robust mechanisms that can strike an effective balance between everyone’s rights but that properly secure the integrity of our criminal justice system.

As for Paddy, his main priority right now is to return to his work and that means getting back on to the Rugby pitch representing his Province and his Country”

 

[Tincanalley]

I agree with the general view you are making here. But I cant say I agree with this. How was she slut shamed? She has complete anonymity, they dont. It wasnt her on trial, it was them. And the fact is (whether we agree or not) they have been found not guilty so should be free to get on with their lives but as we know mud sticks and this will follow them forever now. Im not dimishing what she went through or supporting them or the verdict Im just playing a little devils advocate I guess given the not guilty verdict.

Given that the very nature of the crime usually comes down to one persons word against the other (and in this case 4 persons word against 1) added to the fact that the burden of proof will always fall on the prosecution side then its most likely for those reasons its a very low conviction rate. Something needs to change there I think. Im sure there are loads of cases where actual rape took place and people have walked free, I mean the statistic you quoted would support that. It cant be that 89% of rape cases are false claims?

In any case no one comes out of this looking very good. They certainly dont get any credit for their treatment of women regardless of the verdict.

Very good balanced post. Nothing I can add at all. I have some sympathy for all concerned.

 

[SteveTheRed]

Unproven accusation. Rather an important distinction between the two terms.

Could you explain? The accusation is rape...which they are been acquitted of, so what is wrong with false accusation?

I don't know much about this case at all but if I was accused of a crime , found not guilty and people still said it was an "unproven accusation" rather than "False" can you ever move on?

 

[golden_blunder]

4 nice chaps. I know they’re found not guilty but this stinks. They couldn’t even agree with each other at times

 

[Pogue Mahone]

4 nice chaps. I know they’re found not guilty but this stinks. They couldn’t even agree with each other at times

Tbf if you and your mates went out and got absolutely steaming do you think your recall of events from that night would survive cross-examination?

 

[Paxi]

Seen some comments like 'Now that they've been cleared -- I hope the slut faces full letter of the law' etc on my Twitter feed. fecking morons.

Followed this case closely myself, think the cctv from Olly's VIP didnt help the prosecution's case.

 

[DOTA]

Could you explain? The accusation is rape...which they are been acquitted of, so what is wrong with false accusation?

I don't know much about this case at all but if I was accused of a crime , found not guilty and people still said it was an "unproven accusation" rather than "False" can you ever move on?

That legally this has not been stated.

If I accused you of a crime, you were found not guilty, and people then labelled it a 'false accusation' because it could not be proven beyond reasonable doubt how can I ever move on? I've been labelled a false accuser.

 

[Zebs]

a number of deleted Whatsapp messages, a wiped phone, non-matching stories.

Unbelievable. Literally.

Yet, once again, no conviction.

 

[Paxi]

a number of deleted Whatsapp messages, a wiped phone, non-matching stories.

Unbelievable. Literally.

Yet, once again, no conviction.

That really doesn't prove anything, other than they shat themselves after the way the girl got on in the taxi. I mean its easily explained. Also, I'm pretty sure you can retrieve all the data even if you fecked your phone into the microwave if the crime is serious enough. The police ask WhatsApp etc.

 

[NinjaFletch]

That really doesn't prove anything, other than they shat themselves after the way the girl got on in the taxi. I mean its easily explained. Also, I'm pretty sure you can retrieve all the data even if you fecked your phone into the microwave if the crime is serious enough. The police ask WhatsApp etc.

WhatsApp messages are encrypted as standard. There's been a huge kerfuffle in the UK because the government don't like that fact.

 

[Zebs]

That really doesn't prove anything, other than they shat themselves after the way the girl got on in the taxi. I mean its easily explained. Also, I'm pretty sure you can retrieve all the data even if you fecked your phone into the microwave if the crime is serious enough. The police ask WhatsApp etc.

Several messages were listed is 'not retrievable' by the police.

What's easily explained by the way? Considering you've no idea what those messages said.

 

[SteveTheRed]

That legally this has not been stated.

If I accused you of a crime, you were found not guilty, and people then labelled it a 'false accusation' because it could not be proven beyond reasonable doubt how can I ever move on? I've been labelled a false accuser.

Surely you could use that argument against anyone who has ever been accused of a crime. If only they had enough evidence then they wouldn't have got away with it...

Also you may be labelled a false accuser but who would know? Your anonymity remains.

 

[Paxi]

WhatsApp messages are encrypted as standard. There's been a huge kerfuffle in the UK because the government don't like that fact.

Is Snapchat encrypted too? There was an incident in NI couple of months back when some feck head killed a puppy and send it to people on Snapchat. PSNI tried to obtain the footage as evidence but were unable to do so as the crime was deemed not serious enough. I'm assuming WhatsApp do the same thing and rape is a serious enough. That's my thinking.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Is Snapchat encrypted too? There was an incident in NI couple of months back when some feck head killed a puppy and send it to people on Snapchat. PSNI tried to obtain the footage as evidence but were unable to do so as the crime was deemed not serious enough. I'm assuming WhatsApp do the same thing and rape is a serious enough. That's my thinking.

No.

 

[DOTA]

Surely you could use that argument against anyone who has ever been accused of a crime. If only they had enough evidence then they wouldn't have got away with it...

Also you may be labelled a false accuser but who would know? Your anonymity remains.

Not 'that argument' - that legal definition. You are found not guilty you are not found innocent. Your accuser is not found guilty via you not being proven so.

I can only hope she is and stays anonymous as it is rarely the case from what I've seen in high profile rape trials.

 

[villain]

Surely you could use that argument against anyone who has ever been accused of a crime. If only they had enough evidence then they wouldn't have got away with it...

Also you may be labelled a false accuser but who would know? Your anonymity remains.

No, you couldn't.

A false allegation is where nothing occurred at all, an unproven allegation is when an incident occured but there's not enough evidence beyond reasonable doubt to convict someone.

Plus, the idea false allegations exist almost exclusively within the spectrum of sexual assault, and the idea that there's millions of people ready to falsify claims of sexual assault in the court of law.

 

[poleglass red]

Tbf if you and your mates went out and got absolutely steaming do you think your recall of events from that night would survive cross-examination?

true and her version of events weren't consistent either.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

true and her version of events weren't consistent either.

And probably for the same reason. So it was a bit of cnut's trick for Jackson's lawyer to have a go at her for her inconsistent testimony when he responded to the verdict (see above)

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No, you couldn't.

A false allegation is where nothing occurred at all, an unproven allegation is when an incident occured but there's not enough evidence beyond reasonable doubt to convict someone.

Plus, the idea false allegations exist almost exclusively within the spectrum of sexual assault, and the idea that there's millions of people ready to falsify claims of sexual assault in the court of law.

The "incident" here is rape so I don't know how you can say it definitely occurred?

 

[DOTA]

The "incident" here is rape so I don't know how you can say it definitely occurred?

She said 'an incident' if my eyes are holding up. Not 'a rape'. 'The incident' is the matter that has led to a court case. It is not a statement of criminality.

 

[adexkola]

An unproven allegation is where no one has enough evidence to say whether something happened or not.

 

[Paxi]

Several messages were listed is 'not retrievable' by the police.

What's easily explained by the way? Considering you've no idea what those messages said.

As I said it could be explained by them shitting thier pants. We don't know what those messages containted. It doesn't have to be incriminating, they could just be vile texts about her being a slut or something. The point is - we don't know what was said, but we can't convict someone because someone deleted messages of their phone.

No.

Fair enough.

 

[DOTA]

An unproven allegation is where no one has enough evidence to say whether something happened or not.

Is it not where the prosecution doesn't achieve a conviction?