Best German 11? Kuntz.
Best German eleven
- Thread starter simplyared
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Shame on you.
Will do a serious one:
Kahn
Lahm; Sammer; Kohler; Brietner
Matthaus; Netzer; Beckenbaur; Kroos (diamond with Kroos the 10)
Rumenigge; G. Muller
Bench: Neuer, Vogts, Brehme, Forster, Shweinsteiger, Schuster; Klinsmann
A lot of you are putting T. Muller in but unless you take the position that modern players are always better (which I personally do not) I'm not sure he gets into an all time best 23 German squad, let alone an all-time best XI.
Kahn
Lahm; Sammer; Kohler; Brietner
Matthaus; Netzer; Beckenbaur; Kroos (diamond with Kroos the 10)
Rumenigge; G. Muller
Bench: Neuer, Vogts, Brehme, Forster, Shweinsteiger, Schuster; Klinsmann
A lot of you are putting T. Muller in but unless you take the position that modern players are always better (which I personally do not) I'm not sure he gets into an all time best 23 German squad, let alone an all-time best XI.
I think I agree the most with this one, though I'm a bit unsure how well Kroos and Matthäus will work our in the same team and in positions right next to each other. Might not work so well if they both want to be the central hub coordinating the team. Might work better with a midfield diamond with Kroos up front and Matthäus in the rear, methinks.
Which would very much make him German. Königsberg had been German (Teutonic Order/HRE/Prussian/NGC - you know what I mean) from its founding to its annexation after '45.
It was a joke (not a funny one though).
Germany doesn't have that much depth in attack — only Kalle, Gerd Müller & Seeler (and probably Walter but it's hard to assess him) are clearly ahead of Thomas. And you'd have to put Seeler out of position to fit him in, while Müller Jr. fits in seamlessly. I do think that you seriously underrate him though.
Going with 4 midfielders like you did is an option though, they're absolutely stacked in that department. Not sure why you've put Kroos as a 10 with Netzer in the team — Kroos spent his best years as an organizer from deeper areas while Netzer's peak was as a free-roaming number 10 (even though he often dropped quite deep to get the ball). Personally, I would've swapped Sammer & Beckenbauer as well — the latter preferred to start out deeper & played predominantly as a part of a back 4, while Sammer spent most of his career in midfield and his peak as happened as a libero in a back 5 system.
4-3-3
——————————————G. Müller
Rumenigge——————————————————-—————Rahn
———————————————————Matthäus
——————————-Breitner
—————————————-Beckenbauer
Lahm—————————-—————————————————Vogts
——————————Förster————Kohler
——————————————-Neuer
3-5-2
—————————————————-G.Müller
————————————Walter
—————————————————Matthäus
Brehme——-————-Kroos————————-Schweinsteiger————Lahm
—————————-Kohler———-Beckenbauer———-Vogts
—————————————————-Neuer
Sehr wichtig.
Vogts is an absolute lock for me. He’d be valued even more now in these high lines, and I’d love to see the dribbler who could shake him off.
——————————————G. Müller
Rumenigge——————————————————-—————Rahn
———————————————————Matthäus
——————————-Breitner
—————————————-Beckenbauer
Lahm—————————-—————————————————Vogts
——————————Förster————Kohler
——————————————-Neuer
3-5-2
—————————————————-G.Müller
————————————Walter
—————————————————Matthäus
Brehme——-————-Kroos————————-Schweinsteiger————Lahm
—————————-Kohler———-Beckenbauer———-Vogts
—————————————————-Neuer
Sehr wichtig.
Vogts is an absolute lock for me. He’d be valued even more now in these high lines, and I’d love to see the dribbler who could shake him off.
Interesting points. I'm not sure I agree about depth in attack; G Muller, Rumenigge, Seeler, and Klinsmann for me all comfortably ahead of Thomas, and that's not even counting, the likes of Juup Heyneckes or Rudi Voller (historians would also put Fritz and Hemlut Rahn ahead of most German players, but I agree it's difficult to judge).
Re midfielders, you probably make a good point switching Kroos and Netzer, as well as Beckenbaur and Sammer. I'd always understood Netzer as more of a free 8, while Kroos has seemed to me equally as good as a 10 abd a deep-lying playmaker. But you could also easily drop one of them for Schuster, for me possibly the most underrated German player ever.
Huber
Behrengauna
Kolmann Zoner Bnarck
Maletz
Rewtelize
Lisagawski Mjarnie Clantzgan
Behrengauna
Kolmann Zoner Bnarck
Maletz
Rewtelize
Lisagawski Mjarnie Clantzgan
Subs:
Burckland
Jernisch
Sloeger
Dartley
Meyno
Bilkos
Itzmoler
Hemton
Linuthe
Ziede
Reunsara
Hoeitor
Vauner
Constructing the “Best German XI” is surprisingly difficult as there's a lavishment of riches in certain spots but a clear deficiency (relatively speaking, of course) in others, and I really do struggle with settling on a fixed system or personnel group! 
For example, today I'm really feeling this XI, but the end result might be different tomorrow....
Pros:
For example, today I'm really feeling this XI, but the end result might be different tomorrow....
Pros:
- 4 of the best German players of all time have great freedom to influence the game: Gerd Müller as the quintissential fox-in-the-box center forward and pivot who brings others into the game, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge as the mobile secondary forward with lincense to exploit the spaces behind the No. 9, Matthäus unleashed in a tour-de-force No. 10/ No. 8 role with an offensively oriented box-to-box remit (instead of being limited as some sort of midfield sweeper with unnecesssary defensive responsibilities), and of course Franz Beckenbauer as the inimitable strategic mastermind who organizes the game from the back (as he sees fit).
- Consistent aerial service for the forwards (as well as onrushing midfielders and defenders) with the wingback pairing of Andreas Brehme and Manfred Kaltz.
- Plenty of industry from back to front, that's one of the time-proven hallmarks of die Mannschaft innit. No slacking!
- Defensive resilience with Jürgen Kohler (who can impose himself as an tower of strength in a 3 man defensive line) and Berti Vogts (unyielding terrier and could peel wider if need be) backing up Der Kaiser.
- Proactive build-up capabilities from the back, starting with Manuel Neuer.
Cons:- Even though there's plenty of firepower with Müller Sr., Rummenigge, Matthäus, Breitner and co. there might be something missing in terms of added goal threat (perhaps an additional forward instead of a midfielder or defender, like Müller Jr. or Seeler?)
- Kaltz instead of someone like Lahm (clearly one of the foremost fullbacks from Germany) admittedly seems a bit odd.
- One might argue that Beckenbauer and Matthäus do not need extra protection or leeway to dominate the game — and that's what truly set them apart from the hoi polloi, so extra defensive and midfield coverage is unneeded?
- No Netzer, who had a wonderful understanding with Beckenbauer and Müller, and was the protagonst of free-flowing, attractive football in the 1972 European Championship. Some might even prefer him (or Kroos) to Schweinsteiger in this particular setup.
- Schweinsteiger was a wonderful balancing act in terms of midfield dynamics, but might not be best utilized as a lowly water-carrier and space creator?
- Overt emphasis on the functionality of the collective, as opposed to selecting the best players and letting the chips fall where they may.
Yeah this was the first thing that came to mind for me as well
A lot of posters in their 20s and 30s picking players like Gerd Müller and Beckenbauer. Can I ask why/how? Are you basing the team on your own knowledge or passed down knowledge?
I'd always approach tasks like this with what I've seen myself. For example I wouldn't put Schmeichel on MY all time United-team, as I was 5 when he left. Sure, I've seen a handfull of full time games, know his CV and seen a truckload of highlights, but it just feels disengenius picking players you haven't really watched. Is that odd?
I'd always approach tasks like this with what I've seen myself. For example I wouldn't put Schmeichel on MY all time United-team, as I was 5 when he left. Sure, I've seen a handfull of full time games, know his CV and seen a truckload of highlights, but it just feels disengenius picking players you haven't really watched. Is that odd?
Half the players that I know should go in there, I never saw play. I just know them by videos, reputation and accolades. So I’ll take a different tack to most……
Growing up as a kid and young adult, I had a healthy dislike for the German National team because of England living in their shadow at major tournaments. The Italia 90 semi, where we dominated the game, Pearce had a goal disallowed because he scored directly from an indirect free kick (ridiculous rule in hindsight) and Waddle twatted one against the bar from about 30 yards (did Linekar also hit the post?), scarred me. I was then at Wembley for the Euro 96 semi, and left devastated after another game slipped away that we should’ve won.
Despite this dislike, I always had a grudging admiration and respect for a series of German players, who were quite simply brilliant.
Defensively, Brehme was obviously top class, but I particularly admired Kohler - who was an absolute rock - and Matthias Sammer. Sammer was one of my favourite ever players in that era. A libero, CB, DM and CM rolled into one Rolls Royce of a player. Phillip Lahm needs no bio on here. Universally revered player. And rightly so.
Midfield wise, Matthaus was a colossus, and Effenberg was a very elegant playmaker with a great engine. Loved them both as players. Andreas Muller doesn’t get mentioned much, but he was always dangerous, worked hard and had a great left foot. Michael Ballack had about everything you want in an attack minded CM, and I rated him highly, although think he could’ve been more than he was, had he signed for United when he had the chance.
I was never a huge fan of Rudi Voller. I saw him as a German Mark Hughes but without the brilliant volleys. Yet he was an important, industrious part of that 90s era German side. Klinsmann, on the other hand, was other worldly to me. A player I was obsessed with. A true premium, top drawer striker. Even though he was at the tail end of his career when he came to Spurs, it seemed absolutely magical to see him in England. At the time, all the best players were in Italy, so we rarely got to see them on these shores, except when players like Klinsmann and Zola pitched up at 30 years old. Which back then was really tail end of the career time for most players.
More recent German players I haven’t had much affinity for. However, there are some exceptions. Thomas Muller is one of the most intelligent footballers I’ve ever seen play. A player who was extremely average physically, but found space like no other. And technically was superb. Ozil briefly lit it up, but somewhere along the way, the lightening pace waned and he never reached the heights I expected. Kroos is obviously one of the best passers the game has ever seen, and the German Scholes. A legend of the game. Musiala now is a big talent, and we’ll see where that goes.
It just seems like Germany don’t produce many world class talents anymore. Lots of good players, some very good, but struggling to think of any truly world class in the last decade or so, outside the ones mentioned. The last great German striker was probably Klinsmann, which is nuts.
Growing up as a kid and young adult, I had a healthy dislike for the German National team because of England living in their shadow at major tournaments. The Italia 90 semi, where we dominated the game, Pearce had a goal disallowed because he scored directly from an indirect free kick (ridiculous rule in hindsight) and Waddle twatted one against the bar from about 30 yards (did Linekar also hit the post?), scarred me. I was then at Wembley for the Euro 96 semi, and left devastated after another game slipped away that we should’ve won.
Despite this dislike, I always had a grudging admiration and respect for a series of German players, who were quite simply brilliant.
Defensively, Brehme was obviously top class, but I particularly admired Kohler - who was an absolute rock - and Matthias Sammer. Sammer was one of my favourite ever players in that era. A libero, CB, DM and CM rolled into one Rolls Royce of a player. Phillip Lahm needs no bio on here. Universally revered player. And rightly so.
Midfield wise, Matthaus was a colossus, and Effenberg was a very elegant playmaker with a great engine. Loved them both as players. Andreas Muller doesn’t get mentioned much, but he was always dangerous, worked hard and had a great left foot. Michael Ballack had about everything you want in an attack minded CM, and I rated him highly, although think he could’ve been more than he was, had he signed for United when he had the chance.
I was never a huge fan of Rudi Voller. I saw him as a German Mark Hughes but without the brilliant volleys. Yet he was an important, industrious part of that 90s era German side. Klinsmann, on the other hand, was other worldly to me. A player I was obsessed with. A true premium, top drawer striker. Even though he was at the tail end of his career when he came to Spurs, it seemed absolutely magical to see him in England. At the time, all the best players were in Italy, so we rarely got to see them on these shores, except when players like Klinsmann and Zola pitched up at 30 years old. Which back then was really tail end of the career time for most players.
More recent German players I haven’t had much affinity for. However, there are some exceptions. Thomas Muller is one of the most intelligent footballers I’ve ever seen play. A player who was extremely average physically, but found space like no other. And technically was superb. Ozil briefly lit it up, but somewhere along the way, the lightening pace waned and he never reached the heights I expected. Kroos is obviously one of the best passers the game has ever seen, and the German Scholes. A legend of the game. Musiala now is a big talent, and we’ll see where that goes.
It just seems like Germany don’t produce many world class talents anymore. Lots of good players, some very good, but struggling to think of any truly world class in the last decade or so, outside the ones mentioned. The last great German striker was probably Klinsmann, which is nuts.
Hell no. Absolutely not. Maybe if you compare them as #9s, which isn't Müller's position and him repeatedly being played as such was a gross misuse of his skills, then I'd certainly put him ahead of Müller. But otherwise I don't see any way in hell where I'd rate Klinsmann higher than Müller. In fact, I'd put Klose far ahead of Klinsmann, too, if we want to exclusively talk center forwards. He was never the flashiest player, but the man didn't accidentially stumble his way into being world cup goal record holder, his teamwork was outstanding. and he has significantly more goals than Klinsmann in about the same amount of gametime (47 goals / 25 assists / 8744 minutes vs. 71 goals / 29 assist / 8761 minutes). Him retiring from the national team (and no other #9 of quality being there to succeed him) was a massive blow for Germany and I still don't see anyone who I'd see following in his (and any other former Germany striker greats') footsteps.
Klinsmann was good, I certainly rate him - in fact, now that I think about it I'm pretty sure I have a trikot of his somewhere in the attic back from my younger days - but he has no business being named anywhere close to an all-time Germany 11. Looking at the alternatives, I'd struggle to even put him on the bench.
Switch out Brehme and put Breitner at LWB, then move then add add in Netzer where Breitner was and play him in a free role). Problem solved.Constructing the “Best German XI” is surprisingly difficult as there's a lavishment of riches in certain spots but a clear deficiency (relatively speaking, of course) in others, and I really do struggle with settling on a fixed system or personnel group!
For example, today I'm really feeling this XI, but the end result might be different tomorrow....
Pros:
Effenberg > Schweinsteiger for me, Jeff.
There are vast amounts of full games readily available for a lot of players who pre-date posters - the actual issue is some would rather dig their own eyes out than watch games from eras that have no frame of reference to them. Most people who are genuinely interested in the greatness of players in any given sport will go to great lengths to seek out footage of these so-called legends, mostly to see what all the hype is about and to expand their knowledge and understanding of the sport they are interested in. Mike Tyson was renowned for watching and studying footage of boxers as far back as Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey; many a true boxing fan will have watched 10‘s if not 100’s of bouts of legends spanning decades and decades before they were even born. Football is no different; anyone with a true interest will have sought out easily over 50 games, and that’s being very modest given the breadth of all-timers they’re going to have wanted to see. Before long, their knowledge will be extensive, certainly enough to know the players’ game and idiosyncrasies as well as having a solid idea of how good (or not) a player is in accordance with their own perception or interpretation of the game.
Littbarski, one of the most underrated players ever!
It's a combination of both; there's been a years-long collective discussion & learning process among football history geeks on here (often, but not exclusively in the draft forum) and elsewhere. For older players it usually relies on individual research based on full game material and written reports/analyses. Beckenbauer and Müller are among those who have been studied quite thoroughly, I'd say.
I agree it makes sense to rely on what one has seen with one's own eyes, and of course all historic research leaves some gaps, especially on a layperson's level. So it's up to everyone if they remain sceptical. But I'd say for many major & minor post-war players, the reliability of the consensus is somewhere between acceptable and rock-solid. Platini belongs in the latter category, for example.
(@Fortitude sent a similar reply a bit quicker, but anyway.)
It's a great selection of players, but your system has one big issue: Vogts never would be part of such a back three. He would play in Kaltz' position here, because he just is no CB and his height disadvantage in that position would be ridiculous.Constructing the “Best German XI” is surprisingly difficult as there's a lavishment of riches in certain spots but a clear deficiency (relatively speaking, of course) in others, and I really do struggle with settling on a fixed system or personnel group!
For example, today I'm really feeling this XI, but the end result might be different tomorrow....
Pros:
And a little nitpick: Please don't call them Müller Sr. and Jr. Using that indicates that they are father/son, but they are completely unrelated. Just go with G. Müller and T. Müller please.
Only using players I remember seeing play:
-------------------Kahn-----------------
Lahm-Sammer-Kohler-Ziege
--BFS-Matthäus-Effenberg--
---------------Ballack---------------
------Klinsmann-Klose----------
-------------------Kahn-----------------
Lahm-Sammer-Kohler-Ziege
--BFS-Matthäus-Effenberg--
---------------Ballack---------------
------Klinsmann-Klose----------
I've seen Vogts play as a centre-back many a time, usually in an even more exposed scenario (in a proper back four). And his strengths are much better suited to a right centre-back role in a back three role than they are to an overlapping wingback one (even though he'd be obviously best as a right back in a back four).
I personally see him as an upgrade on Walker, who often drops back to form a situational back three for City (although Pep constantly tinkers with his defensive/build-up formations). They do share the same strengths and weaknesses.
Submitting Max Morlock for consideration among the strikers, not because I ever saw him play, but because his name sounds like a character Marvel would overestimate the popularity of.
Piggybacking off this, what are people's thoughts on a former Yugoslav eleven - the territories of today's Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Slovenia and Macedonia.
I wonder what @harms would think. I think it'd be some team, especially given the relatively small population.
I wonder what @harms would think. I think it'd be some team, especially given the relatively small population.
He played a similar role as an RB/CB in the World Cup in 1978. In that World Cup, Dietz was a more offensive fullback, and Vogts operated as a man-marker/RB role that was very similar to modern RCB in both phases( build-up and defensive). Borussia often used a man-marking strategy in a lot of games, and again Vogts's positioning was always a hybrid of RB/CB( similar to RB in Zona Mista) and deployed as a marker against the opposition's best attacker. In the penalty box, he was one of the players who must contributed to win the ball in aerial situations. Borussia's 4-3-3 also could look like a 3-4-3 like in some of their 1973 games, Danner played almost as an lmf/lwb/lb in one player and had a lot of freedom to join in midfield or operated as a full-time lmf. When they operated in hybrid 4-3-3/3-4-3, Bonhof would play as SWP(Libero) and Vogts a lot of times as full-time cb/marker. Considering everything, I think he would be fine here in the RCB role due to his experience as both RB(overlapping RB in 1970 WC/early 1970s) and CB, and he already demonstrated his ability to play a hybrid role(RB/CB) in WC1978 and a lot of Borussia's games.
Vogts even played as RCB(stopper) in the back 4 creating a partnership with Bonhof, Sieloff, and Wittkamp(all of them being sweepers). While old man Vogts in his last season as a footballer(1978-1979) played as a sweeper alongside Schaffer. I think he sometimes operated as lb too. He was versatile as hell.
That's all true, but I still wouldn't but him in an all time eleven as a CB
Džajić - Mijatović - Savićević
Stojković - Mordić
Čajkovski
Zebec - Vidić - Vasović - Jusufi
Beara
Stojković - Mordić
Čajkovski
Zebec - Vidić - Vasović - Jusufi
Beara
Oblak, Šekularac, Vukas, Bobek, Boban, Prosinečki, Jugović, Rakitić, Matić, Ivanović, Šuker, Sušić, Bokšić...
Probably something like this? @Šjor Bepo @Jim Beam
Bit of a blurred line as you're talking about a generic, tall defensive line and not really catering for a stopper with someone sweeping up behind them.
Vogts goes out to meet the man and harasses and shepherds him to distraction. His low centre of gravity and insane acceleration are then assets and he is an annoyance few can shake off.
He's not often going to be exploited for height deep in his own box; if he is, the 3-5-2 hasn't done its job well before that ball can be contested.
In a flat back four, things are different.
Funny no one mentioned Klose. I'd take him.
He is one of the greats due to his longevity, not his peak.
Another German great gone. Andreas Breheme passed away suddenly aged 63
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A 4x2x3x1 with 3 CAM.
Pros:
- A very versatile team with all 4 defenders (with the exception of Kohler) who can cover sucessfully other positions in case we need to make a tactical shift during the match.
- A lot of creativity on the midifield: even Matthaus who is the more defensive midfielder can create or score.
- Der Bomber with so many creative players would be scoring goals gallore.
- Set pieces nightmare: excellent headers and midrange shooters who can also take FKs and CKs.
Cons:
- Lack of width: Either T. Muller and Moller may not offer their best when pushed wide.
- Lack a bit of speed in the midfield. Sometimes you need explosion to solve matches. In that case Mathaus would had to drop back to allow Lahm and Brehme to offer speed and width.
- Der Bomber was a pure 9, and his playstyle may not work so well against teams who excel at zone defending.
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A lot of people picking either Kahn or neuer in goal but sepp Meier who was the main man between 1967 and 1978 was an absolute beast for Bayern and west Germany
Indeed. I'd have Seeler in there too instead of Rumenigge, especially if Gerd Muller is playing.
I enjoyed his longevity of scoring the most goals in WC history and winning the same tournament.
