They’re not really big goals if there’s not any serious chance at silverware though are they? When he’s had these opportunities in his career, he’s failed to make his mark.
Best Striker in the World
- Thread starter Idxomer
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He played for Spurs, what big games? If you are talking NLD's, probably Spurs biggest event in a usual season, he has certainly got good figures. If you are talking England his stats are much better than Rooney's for instance. The only other 'big' game I can recall was the Liverpool CL final where he probably got enough pain killers to kill a horse so he could limp onto the field and be virtually anonymous.
For me, at this moment in time, Kane, I feel there was a reason Pep went in two or three times trying to push the transfer of Kane to City through. Then realised Spurs would not budge and turned to Haaland.
Haaland at City against the other big 6 in the league:
6 goals and 4 assists in 9 games: 0,67 G/90 and 1,11 G+A/90
Haaland was anonymous in the finals for City last season, but he still scored 7 and assisted 1 in the KO stages of the CL for City last season and a hattrick in the QF of the FA Cup. He was anonymous because their opponents put 2 guys on him at all times.
Kane against the big 6 in the league last season: 6 goals and 1 assist in 10 games: 0,6 G/game and 0,7 G+A/game (could you class this as similar or better than 0,67G/game or 1,11G+A/game?)
Regarding Haaland in Germany:
- He scored 5 and assisted 1 in 391 minutes against Bayern for Dortmund: 1,15 G/90 and 1,38 G+A/90
He was almost allways good against them, they just couldn't beat them.
- Haaland against other "big teams in Germany" for Dortmund (Leipzig, Leverkusen, Wolfsburg and Gladbach): 19 goals and 3 assists in 19 games, or Frankfurt and Hertha: 8 goals and 4 assists in 8 games....
- Haaland in KO stages in the CL for Dortmund:
6 goals and 2 assists in 540 minutes against (PSG, City and Sevilla): 1,0 G/90 and 1,33 G+A/90
- Haaland in the DFB final against Leipzig: 2 goals in 90 and won threm the trophy.
He also scored in both the games they were knocked out of the cup in the years they didn't win.
Kane on the "big stage" through out his career:
Kane in KO stages in the CL:
2 goals and 0 assists in 7 games: 0,30 G/90 and 0,30 G+A/90
Kane against the other big 6 teams for Spurs:
42 goals and 14 assists in 94 games: 0,45 G/game and 0,60 G+A/game
Kane in the FA cup matches Spurs have been knocked out were he started:
2012: 5th round at home against Bolton: 0 goals and 0 assists / 0 - 2 loss
2013: 4th round at home to Luton: 0 goals and 0 assists / 0 -1 loss
2016: 5th round at home to Crystal Palace: 0 goals and 0 assists / 0 -1 loss
2017: Semifinal against Chelsea: 1 goal and 0 assists / 4 - 2 loss (did nothing in the QF)
2018: Semifinal against Man United: 0 goals and 0 assists / 2 - 1 loss (didn't play the QF)
2021: 5th round against Everton: 1 goal and 0 assists / 5 - 4 loss on penalties (subbed off at 67')
2022: 5th round against Middlesbrough: 0 goals and 0 assists / 0 - 1 loss
He hasn't helped Spurs to get deep in the FA cup once.....
Kane in the League Cup exits and semifinals:
2015: Semifinals against SU (1-0/2-2): 0 goals and 1 assist in 2 games
2015: Final against Chelsea: 0 goals and 0 assists / 2 - 0 loss
2019: Semifinal at home against Chelsea: 1 goal and 0 assist / 1 - 0 win (he didn't play the return match and spurs lost)
2021: Semifinal against Brentford: 0 goals and 0 assists: 2 - 0 win
2021: Final against Man City: 0 goals and 0 assists: 0 - 1 loss
2022: Semifinals against Chelsea: 0 goals and 0 assists / 0-2 and 0-1 losses
That's a grand total of 3 goals and 1 assist in 15 important domestic cup games for Spurs, and they won 0 trophies.
You could bring up his England record in championships and important games as well:
Euro 2016: 0 goals and 0 assists in 4 games (lost to Iceland (!!) in the round of 16)
WC 2018: 5 goals (2 pens) against Panama and Tunisia in the group stages, 1 goal (a pen) in the round of 16 and 0 goals and 0 assists in the QF, SF and 3rd place final.
Euro 2021: 0 goals and 0 assists in the group stage, 4 goals in the round of 16, QF and SF and 0 goals and 0 assists in the final (best tournament of his career, but went missing in the final)
WC 2022: 0 goals and 3 asssists in the group stage, 2 goals in the round of 16 and QF (knocked out against against France in the QF)
Nations league: 3 goals and 4 assists in 18 games, including 0 returns in the finals in 2019.
Total: 15 goals and 7 assists in 40 games in championships and NL. 7 goals and 0 assists in 13 KO games
Kane's record in "big" games is not remotely similar, and miles upon miles away from being better.
Oh you're right, I got that Bayern bit wrong about Haaland. It was that he hadn't won against Bayern until that preseason game with City.
That KO stage stat last season for Haaland is deceptive because 5 of the goals came against Leipzig. Skews things a lot, IMO. I specified semi-finals and finals.This might be arbitrary, but unless they are playing a big team, I also don't feel like CL group stage or Round of 16 games are "big games" for a team like City and that certainly is not how the OP classed them. The expectations and opportunities are entirely different than a team like Spurs. For better or worse, in modern CL the real fun usually begins in the quarter-finals. I also can't class an FA Cup quarterfinal for City against Burnley, one of the current PL whipping boys, as a "big game". Even in the semi-final of that competition against another current Prem whipping boy, Sheffield United, he was anonymous and I don't think he had a particularly good FA Cup final either. The "two defenders" excuse for anonymity won't hold much longer because we are talking about the best striker in the world here. He is going to have to figure out a way to have more impact in those high stakes games even with such treatment. I think he can do it.
Simply amalgamating G/A like that can also be deceptive. In those Big 6 league games last season, Haaland racked up 8 of those G/A in two of the games (United and Arsenal). In 5 of those 9 games he didn't register a goal or an assist and the quality of his performances is much more reliant on G/A figures than someone like Kane whose involvement is more expansive. His statistical outbursts are such that if you average them out on a per 90 basis it looks great, but there is also something to be said for consistency across big games as well. Didn't you use to make this same point about goal clusters re: Ronaldo's statistical output in that first season back with United?
I'm also taking the circumstances into account. One played for a Spurs in turmoil last season and the other for City, who create chances galore. Also the nature of Haaland's game is such that he almost has to put up G/A to have a good game; not necessarily the case for Kane. I don't think Haaland has been that amazing this season, but the numbers are still there and exceptional because the chances are abundant. He himself has been visibly frustrated with his finishing. Last season, Kane also scored in both games against Newcastle, a top 4 rival, which won't be included in the "Big 6" games here.
All of the historical Kane stuff is great, but we are talking about the best striker now. Some of that stuff goes back to the days when Suarez, Benzema, Lewandowski, Aguero etc. were in their pomp and he clearly was not the best striker in the world. I weigh their recent performances more heavily because we are talking about now, with last season and the beginning of this season weighing the heaviest. The original poster is also classing "big games" as those with a serious chance at silverware, so a lot of Haaland's Dortmund CL stuff is nice, but I don't think it fits the bill because they never made it far enough to be serious CL contenders and play in those high stakes SF and Final games.
So yeah, with context similar seems fair to me. Maybe a slight nod to Haaland if you want to take more of his Dortmund stuff into account, but I don't think the difference is too drastic.
Edit: Maybe I'm spoiled by Benzema, but both of them have some work to do on their "big game player" credentials. They are the two leading candidates for best striker right now, IMO. No more Tottenham excuses for Kane now that he is at Bayern.
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Halland or Mbappe
Great post and you make good points.
I still think history shows that Kane has been more of a "bottler" in the "big" games.
Haaland sure have more statistical outbursts than most strikers, but he also have the consistancy, except maybe as you mention against the top teams and the big games last season.
In the PL there's only 3 teams he hasn't scored against (out of the 21 teams he's faced): Liverpool and Brentford which he only played once and Chelsea which he only started once against.
Right now, it's definitely between those two. I think Haaland is the best goalscorer of them and is harder for the opponents to handle, while Kane has a bit more to his game.
You also have a good memory (The Ronaldo reference): It is possible to beat Haaland with the same stick, especially when it comes to the big games last season, but not as much as Ronaldo:
Ronaldo scored 7 goals in 14 matches between 1/1 - 20/4 for us in 2022. 6 of those goals came in 2 games. That means 11 blanks in 14 games.
Haaland. I know the team creates infinite chances for him but he broke ancient records in his 1st season in England. Not sure about Mpabbe being a striker or not. Just because he often starts wide doesnt mean his game isnt all about being the recipient of the final ball and has licence to roam. I think when your role is all about scoring you are a striker.
Uh, no he isn't
Better footballer, maybe. Haaland's faster and probably a better finisher overall (though still misses a few strange ones), but even the latter isn't so clear cut. You put Kane in the MC team, just like he's been transported to the BM team, and suddenly see him average nigh on a goal a game, maybe 3-5 combined goals p/season less than Haaland. As for playmaking, it's not even close.
Kane has won nothing and Haaland won 3 trophies in his first season. You have to take the clubs they play for into account but it matters.
Haaland is breaking silly records in the league and the Champions League. What more can he do? Kane is probably a better passer but that's about it. Haaland any day of the week. (Tottenham look better without Kane too)
Haaland is breaking silly records in the league and the Champions League. What more can he do? Kane is probably a better passer but that's about it. Haaland any day of the week. (Tottenham look better without Kane too)
The definition of big goals conveniently gets smaller on here every day. So not only must the opponent be a formidable one, it has to be in a final, or semi-final of a cup competition?
And that ignores that Bayern were one of the favorites in the CL last season, and Arsenal were City's closest challengers for the league. Of course his goals were pivotal.
Any metric based on only 5 games out of 38+13+7 games is incredibly flawed.
Think it's fair to say that's down to a change of management. Kane under Postecoglou would make Spurs look even better.
I think it's a bit of both. Postecoglou has been great so far. I think the front players have a bit more freedom now and it got a bit stale with Kane despite him scoring so much. A bit like Van Nistelrooy in his last season with us.
That wasn't Kane's fault (or RVN for that matter). That was the fault of Mourinho, Conte and Fergie for letting the team get stale and wasting the prime of those 2 strikers.
Ange has done very well in Kane's absence, but if you offered him Kane right now he'd rip your hand off.
1. Haaland
2. Lewandowski
3. Kane
In that order for me. Lukaku shouldn't be part of this discussion imho and Ronaldo and Benzema I can no longer rank based on playing in a retirement League.
2. Lewandowski
3. Kane
In that order for me. Lukaku shouldn't be part of this discussion imho and Ronaldo and Benzema I can no longer rank based on playing in a retirement League.
Kane - 30 years old, 363 career goals
Erling Haaland - 23 years old, 240 career goals.
It's not close between them as goalscorers. People can laud Kane for dropping deep and passing (and getting in the way of actual number 10s/AMs) but Haaland does the actual job of a number 9 much better.
Kane at City would've been something.
Nonsense. The United team looked much more fluid when RVN left. RVN was truly world class but he limited the team somewhat
Haaland is a monster but Kane is a better player. He is almost as good as a goalscorer and much better football player.
Fundamentally, a great no.9 isn't just someone who scores a disproportionate amount of goals which that team scores overall; it's a no.9 who not only scores, but also helps others score. Kane does both. You can't simply myopically hone in on goals scored and that's the whole of the argument. The argument must be how many goals directly that player contributes to both in terms of goals scored and goals assisted.
That's without factoring in Kane perpetually playing for the 5/6th best team in the country (sometimes even worse). When did Haaland ever play for anyone who wasn't 1st or 2nd best?
That's without factoring in Kane perpetually playing for the 5/6th best team in the country (sometimes even worse). When did Haaland ever play for anyone who wasn't 1st or 2nd best?
RVN didn't limit the team. An old Keane, a blind Scholes, Djemba Djemba/Kleberson/Silvestre, and immature Rooney/Ronaldo limited the team.
He was past his absolute peak in 06/07 but given the chance he would have done well alternating with Saha IMO.
Regarding the bolded, that's not fact. That's, just, like, your opinion man. Unless the no 9 scores at the same level AND assists (like Messi). If striker 1 scores 30 goals and striker 2 scores 18 goals with 12 assists, striker 2 doesn'y automatically become better than striker 1.
You are right that a player is more than the amount of goals he scores. What gets me in these debates is the assumption that non-goal contributions are simply assists which just isn't true. And I think conversations involving Haaland on here assume that if he's not scoring, you may as well be playing with 10 men, which is false.
He is not almost as good a goalscorer. There is a clear gap. Haaland has two thirds of Kane's career total and he is 7 years younger. Haaland has a shot at a thousand career goals if he keeps going like this, Kane will be doing well to get to 500.
I rest my case. To be honest I’m not sure how people can overlook such a thing. He’s not exactly been digging his sides out of holes in big moments for club or country. But he’s the darling of most these days.
Better ratio at international level for a far inferior side too. Kane definitely has more to his game, I agree with people there. But he’s not close to being as good a goalscorer as Haaland, whose scoring exploits have been insane for every side he’s ever played for.
Haaland really disappeared in City’s big games at the business end last season too. But for me to be the best you’ve surely got to be a player for the big moments. For that reason alone (and his ridiculous ability to explode away from defenders) Mbappe is clearly the best striker in the world. I don’t want to hear anything about Mbappe being a CL failure either because when it comes to games like that Madrid tie he did his bit, the rest of the side let him down.
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No, it doesn’t. There’s a difference between getting goals against the best sides and getting goals in the big moments. A game against United is usually a standard affair for Spurs given that they’re rarely challenging for the title, and neither have United for most of the time he’s been a top player. And let’s not be pedantic, I’m not saying he’s NEVER scored a big goal in a big moment, I’m saying it’s a bit of a rarity for him.
But being a Spurs player doesn’t mean he hasn’t had plenty of chances for big goals that could potentially have edged them towards silverware, you’ve got a slew of knockout cup games, and two huge misses in two world cup semi finals, along with some very average to below average performances in the Euros too. A bloke further up the thread gave a reasonable break down of Kane’s form when he’s had opportunities in matches that could have potentially lead to trophies for both club and country.
Anthony Martial
Dont agree. I thought we were a million times more fluid when Saha came into the team
Have people forgotten Haaland was winning UCL golden boot with Dortmund. Yes he plays for City, but that doesn't mean we will discount his ridiculous goal scoring talent. Since joining Salzburg, Haaland has been scoring at over 1 goal per 90.
Kane has been sublime too, but Haaland is just a monster.
Kane has been sublime too, but Haaland is just a monster.
Martial
Saha came into the team, but we also had Carrick come in, Vidic being the perfect partner for Rio, Evra being dominant, Scholes rolling back the years, Rooney being a force of nature and Ronaldo evolving. Maybe you can put the last one on RvN leaving. But there's too much change for me to agree that us being more fluid is simply because RvN left
I know we dragged this thread off course a bit, but I made a thread on this a while back: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/why-is-ruud-van-nistelrooy-so-disrespected.475044/
Haaland is a poor man's Gerd Muller being spoonfed probably by the most dominant PL team of all time with or without him, and always ghosts in the most important games.. City scored more the prior year without him, playing without a proper striker..
Put Kane, Lewa, Benzema, even a 38 year-old Ronaldo in that team, and they would all score tons.. the amount of chances that City creates is crazy, I don't think people realize how dominant City is with or without him..
Mbappe is the real deal, a real spectacular big game-changer, very exciting to watch just like R9, a much more versatile player.. Haaland other than his limited passing, off the ball skills is also boring to watch.. He does not have this X factor associated with geniuses like R9, Romario, Van Basten etc..
I would say
1. Mbappe
2. Kane
3. Haaland
Put Kane, Lewa, Benzema, even a 38 year-old Ronaldo in that team, and they would all score tons.. the amount of chances that City creates is crazy, I don't think people realize how dominant City is with or without him..
Mbappe is the real deal, a real spectacular big game-changer, very exciting to watch just like R9, a much more versatile player.. Haaland other than his limited passing, off the ball skills is also boring to watch.. He does not have this X factor associated with geniuses like R9, Romario, Van Basten etc..
I would say
1. Mbappe
2. Kane
3. Haaland
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Look at Haaland’s record for Salzburg and Dortmund. Are they all conquering teams too?
In their leagues, yeah top-2 teams, nothing surprising there.. Andre Silva scored 28 in Bundesliga with Eintracht in 2021 and Patrick Schick 24 with Leverkusen in 2022, more than Haaland playing for worse teams.. I mean Weghorst scored 20 at Wolfsburg..
Haaland is of course a great striker but putting him among the greatest is laughable, he has too many shortcomings not to mention hi highly unusual regular ghosting habits in every single semis & finals.. Put him at Tottenham last year, all his flaws would be even more highlighted.. Most of his goals are tap-ins, cannot create..
Best of the best have the hold up play and link up play, dropping deep to create space for others, some having amazing dribbling, passing skills etc. none of which Haaland has..
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You could say the same with Mbappe with your logic. Only done it for top 2 team in France (not done it in a top 3 league yet) and international football but he's still the best according to you.
*Haaland casually showing off his UCL Golden Ball with Dortmund. *
Mbappe has never played in a top league and international football is a notch below that too. He's not progressed much at PSG and his loose touch and kick and run approach would raise questions over his likely effectiveness in the PL. Haaland has come to the league, stepped up, and answered all his critics.
That's what might happen when you play against Sevilla, Zenit, Brugge and Lazio.. sounds more like Europa League teams he played against..
Also, he could never lead Bundesliga as the top goal-scorer, could not even finish as the 2nd..
And so?
Lewa has not played in a top league until he left Bayern at 34, does not prevent him from being considered a Ballon D'or material player when he was at Bayern.
Also, Mbappe has delivered big time in 2 WCs, very few players performed the same way in the greatest tournament of all time.. At 18, he led Monaco to CL semis, destroying City in the process.
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Kane never played for City. I am not sure Haaland will have the same numbers if he played for Spurs all his career.
But anyway I agree that Haaland is a freak.