Rio was very comfortable on the ball. Perhaps not a spectacular passer, but he could pick out a decent one, and quite regularly would drive forward with it at his feet to get the opposition midfielders on the back foot. Let's not start comparing Rio and Vidic to Smalling and Jones.
Big defensive overhaul needed
- Thread starter Canagel
- Start date
Rio was very comfortable, but he would still mostly leave it to Scholes and later Carrick to dictate the game.
My point here was that most of our plays started with a short pass to Carrick and scholes. I know very well that Rio could play but our build up play mostly started with our deepest midfielder
Right, but even if we ignore that Rio was lightyears ahead of Smalling and Jones in terms of playing out from the back, the poster that I'm assuming @flappyjay responded to stated that we have an archaic back four that isn't suited to the modern game, and your solution this is to try and emulate something we were doing 10 years ago?
The modern game is all ball playing centre-backs and fullbacks capable of stretching the play and performing defensively. We've got two converted wingers who aren't quite there offensively, and aren't quite there defensively playing at full-back, and a number of centre backs who shit themselves under the slightest bit of pressure, and couldn't pick out a pass if their lives depended on it.
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So how did Atletico Madrid finish above Real Madrid? Godin and Savic make less passes than Smalling and Jones, and with much less accuracy. But they are 2 points ahead, mathmatically finished 2nd and with a game still to play. Europa winners being the cherry on top
Clearly to see both fullbacks need qn upgrade from what we have. CB too if genuine top player available. No points of signing another upcoming talented young CB. At this point, we really need someone who ready to lead the line and pick up a pass. We really need a stable and genuinely solid back 4 because now, we dont have one, only a world class GK to make up for it.
My point is that if you make a big defensive overhaul by including a defender that is good on the ball, it still won't make much of a difference if you don't have metronome type of a player in your midfield (like Carrick and Scholes were, or Kroos, Modric, Thiago, Pjanic are) which atm seems we don't even look. Which points to me we don't actually have any intention of controlling the game with our passing.
Btw. Bailly is solid on the ball, not brilliant but solid. Bigger issues are fullbacks, on that part of defensive problems I agree.
Eh? We're talking about the same Atletico that scored ~40 goals less than Real Madrid and in fact were the lowest scorers in the top 6 of La Liga?
Like, if we're talking squad overhauls and what we need to see for Manchester United to turn into the team we want to get excited about watching week in and week out, Atletico Madrid are not the template for that because they are quite literally what we are now, just turned up to 11 and more efficient.
Yes, considering Bailly is our only exceptional defensive player.
Need upgraded (starting level) LB, RB, and CB to partner with Bailly.
Need upgraded (starting level) LB, RB, and CB to partner with Bailly.
Yes. We are.
Do you know who our manager is?
He'd be delighted if we finished above Real Madrid and wouldnt give a crap about how many goals we've scored.
I'm talking about the team setup Mourinho wishes he has, but has failed to organize anywhere near as well.
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Atletico Madrid can finish on a maximum of 81 points. The exact same total we reached this season. They scored 12 less goals and conceded 8 less.
I think Mourinho's been fruitlessly trying to mould Pogba into being that type of player, but I will point out that @flappyjay initially posted that we could "just bypass the problem" by getting one of those players, when it's abundantly obvious that we are severely lacking in quality in the centre of our defence.
A fit Bailly I think would be fine as one of our central defenders, but we need someone better than all of the others, and to be honest better and more consistent than him alongside him. I think we need three new first choice defenders, both full backs and one central, with Valencia, Fosu-Mensah, Young, Lindelof, at most two of Rojo/Jones/Smalling as back-up. Shaw if he's still here.
When we're discussing hypothetical overhauls, I don't see the point in bypassing obvious problems.
Constantly going with jones and smalling is jose taking the piss .... DISGUSTED
You seemed to have missed the bit where I said "the team we want to get excited about watching week in week out" because you're making an entirely different point that, in my opinion at least, is entirely pointless when it comes to discussing hypothetical squad overhauls.
Surely we should be discussing what we think needs doing, rather than what we think Mourinho is going to do? It's not a squad overhaul if we just try and second guess a manager that's likely to bin off a couple of fringe players and sign 4 new ones.
I couldn't give a toss what Mourinho would be happy with, and I also disagree with your point considering Real Madrid could be walking away with a third consecutive CL in a week's time.
Why would Mourinho care about a competition hes not in? He'd obviously care about his own team finishing above Real Madrid.
And we shouldnt waste time talking about what a different manager like Guardiola or Klopp would do with our squad. They arent our managers. Any thoughts about them are entirely pointless.
We're dealing with Mourinho as manager. And unless he leaves in the summer, your expectations should be tempered with dealing with Mourinho's peculiarities. He's our manager. He's the one who will decide what we need.
Ok, fair enough, bypassing is probably the wrong way to deal with specific problems (it will still exist to some degree). I would be happy to get Alderweireld along Bailly because of this reasons and more composure/passing ability from the back. But, I would be even more happy by having someone who can control the tempo of the game in the midfield because if you don't have it your defenders will still mainly kick it out and you will see their influence in terms of ball-playing reduced.
Which CB do you consider the best between Skriniar, Koulibaly, Bonucci, Alderweireld and De Ligt?
Bonucci.
However I feel Toby would have the most efficient impact on United with him knowing the EPL and being a ball playing CB which we desperately lack.
People keep sidetracking the obvious problem. Our CBs could handle Chelsea's attack comfortably, in general (except that brainfart). We had 67% of possession, and can't do feck all turning it into any goal. There lies the problem. Not this defensive overhaul bs.
Just a reminder of a few days ago UEFA Final, people who watched it with their mind open, could see how important it is to have a good set of attackers. Atletico didn't need their CBs to ping passes or joint the attack for them to score goals against a defensive team.
Just a reminder of a few days ago UEFA Final, people who watched it with their mind open, could see how important it is to have a good set of attackers. Atletico didn't need their CBs to ping passes or joint the attack for them to score goals against a defensive team.
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Yea, I don’t think anyone is denying that.
Fullbacks and a ball playing CB are a massive part in the modern game of football. They are vital for a teams attack and make teams much more unpredictable having different avenues in which attacks can form from. Right now, United don’t have that. All we have is CM to forwards who do that. We are completely missing that dynamic from the back to be able to attack and move up the pitch and is what I’m sure virtually everyone is saying we need to get here...2 FBs who can make offensive contributions as well as a CB who can make a pass to start a break out. Would go a long fecking ways for United
If we start with a back four of Young Smalling Jones Valencia next season then we are in trouble. How Young and Valencia have not yet mastered the ability of lifting a ball from a moving or static position with any degree of accuracy I do not know.
Smalling and Jones cannot bring a ball forward out of the back line, and did not the England manager state that he was not picking Smalling because of this lack of ability,
With this back four we will never have a fluid flow of the ball from defence to attack through the midfield, nor will we have the full backs getting down the wing behind the oppositions defence and playing accurate balls into the penalty area.
It means that we will continually have the problem of the side playing side or backward passes, full backs stopping and either passing a ball inside or hitting a early poorly placed cross ball. Unfortunately are back four are not comfortable on the ball when tightly pressed so the natural instinct is to lay the ball off as quickly as possible. which is again usually a side or backward pass.
Looking at our back four, their experience, age and games played I do not think that coaching can mitigate these footballing characteristics, they will not change. We require replacements whose footballing ability is of a higher quality.
The ability of launching quick accurate counter attacks, comes from having a back line of players who have the confidence, and ability to move the ball quickly and accurately via the mid field, to the forward player(s). At this present time we do not have that ability.
Smalling and Jones cannot bring a ball forward out of the back line, and did not the England manager state that he was not picking Smalling because of this lack of ability,
With this back four we will never have a fluid flow of the ball from defence to attack through the midfield, nor will we have the full backs getting down the wing behind the oppositions defence and playing accurate balls into the penalty area.
It means that we will continually have the problem of the side playing side or backward passes, full backs stopping and either passing a ball inside or hitting a early poorly placed cross ball. Unfortunately are back four are not comfortable on the ball when tightly pressed so the natural instinct is to lay the ball off as quickly as possible. which is again usually a side or backward pass.
Looking at our back four, their experience, age and games played I do not think that coaching can mitigate these footballing characteristics, they will not change. We require replacements whose footballing ability is of a higher quality.
The ability of launching quick accurate counter attacks, comes from having a back line of players who have the confidence, and ability to move the ball quickly and accurately via the mid field, to the forward player(s). At this present time we do not have that ability.
The fullback issue is a real sleeper. The CB's are fine, people completely forget that in the Rio/Vidic era Patrice Evra did a lot of bringing the ball out of defense. We don't have anybody comfortable enough to do that on the flanks at all. The issues are then compounded through the lineup.
Well yeh. Who doesn't like to have a ball playing and good defender in their team. Every best team has the passer and the butcher pair so to speak. I also agreed that both our FBs need to be upgraded. Massively. It's just I think before the defensive overhaul, we need to overhaul the attack and midfield.Yea, I don’t think anyone is denying that.
Fullbacks and a ball playing CB are a massive part in the modern game of football. They are vital for a teams attack and make teams much more unpredictable having different avenues in which attacks can form from. Right now, United don’t have that. All we have is CM to forwards who do that. We are completely missing that dynamic from the back to be able to attack and move up the pitch and is what I’m sure virtually everyone is saying we need to get here...2 FBs who can make offensive contributions as well as a CB who can make a pass to start a break out. Would go a long fecking ways for United
I think that's where United "identity" lies. I started to become United fan, just because I was in awe of Cantona and Scholes, not because of Bruce and Pallister. And I think the younger fans also in awe of Ronaldo, Rooney, or Beckham and Giggs; not because of Stam, Rio and Vidic. (as much as I loved those later three, especially the dutchman). It's all about that fantasy, the skill, that energy those players bring out that can capture peoples heart and mind.
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We’re going nowhere fast with our fullbacks, been obvious for years. I honestly don’t think the CBs are the issue people make them out to be. They could be improved yes, but they aren’t hampering the team like young and Valencia.
Oh I see. Yea I get where you’re coming from. We are in need of a RW and CM as well so who knows maybe that’s what will complete that side of the field/Xl.
I think we’ll begin seeing that fantasy once those attacking players are able to get proper service from proper FBs and CBs (even CM which we need for Pogba and Matic). I think everything is connected and we all know Pogba’s top form and Alexis’s etc. He shows flashes every now n then and was consistently at that level at Juvé. Truly believe once we fix the other components that fantasy from the talented attacking players will naturally blossom to the fullest potential.
Fullback positions badly need strengthening. It’s clear to see it’s a major weakness in our team.
You're more optimistic about this team/manager than me, which is a good thing.Oh I see. Yea I get where you’re coming from. We are in need of a RW and CM as well so who knows maybe that’s what will complete that side of the field/Xl.
I think we’ll begin seeing that fantasy once those attacking players are able to get proper service from proper FBs and CBs (even CM which we need for Pogba and Matic). I think everything is connected and we all know Pogba’s top form and Alexis’s etc. He shows flashes every now n then and was consistently at that level at Juvé. Truly believe once we fix the other components that fantasy from the talented attacking players will naturally blossom to the fullest potential.
Are you even hearing yourself? Mourinho values, above all else, winning trophies, which is why he was happy to finish 6th last season because he picked up the League Cup and Europa League, and along with the latter, the CL qualification he'd have got from finishing the top 4.
He'd much rather finish 3rd with a Champions League than 2nd with a Europa League because the Champions League is a far bigger, more prestigious prize, and is pretty much the top competition in club football.
If Mourinho managed to guide Real Madrid to a 3rd consecutive Champions League, it wouldn't matter if they finished 9th because he'd be waving his dick in the faces of everyone at Atletico Madrid and Barcelona to show off about it.
As for tempering expectations of a squad overhaul, how does that work exactly? I absolutely do not expect a squad overhaul from Mourinho, so what's even the point of having the discussion about a hypothetical squad overhaul? The only reason to discuss a hypothetical squad overhaul is to see where people think we need strengthening the most, what players they'd keep and in what role, and which players they'd happily move on, not to temper it all based on what we think the manager's going to do.
Rojo looks fast as feck!! Jones looke and runs like Stephen Hawkins on ice!
The CB's are generally fine for now. The FB and DM position need upgrades. Especially FB.
I definitely think we could cope without buying a new centre back. Smalling and Bailly, or Jones and Bailly aren't bad options. The Smalling Jones combo doesn't seem to work very well, and despite the years they've both been here now, 6-8 years is it, they've barely played together.
We can't be messing about with Young as the main left back next season. But in output, i'd probably say his is better than Valencia. I'd like to see big upgrades for both, mid 20s guys at the top of their form.
You think we need Matic upgraded now?
Geez, this place is always going to think we're about 8 players short.
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We have the best defensive record in the league because ...
we have the best keeper in the world
Our full backs never attack
We play even against poor teams with 2 defensive midfielders almost every game.
As a result our 2nd rate centre backs are well and truly protected.
We set up every game to keep things tight that’s why we score nowhere near enough goals
I wouldnt trust this guy with another penny. already signed 2 center backs who cant start a match between them. He has taken one of England's bright young left backs and shunned him.
Bailly has shown nothing this season to indicate he’s exceptional.
It’s about the only thing I agree with Mourinho on. Love him or hate him, Smalling is Mourinho’s first pick defender.
I’m pretty sure that Bailly and Lindeloff have not started a game together as a partnership yet. It’s crazy.
His treatment of Shaw has been ridiculous.
Yep. We didn’t start playing until we went a goal down yesterday, which has been the story of our season.
Right, and how exactly does a defensive overhaul fix that?
By buying a top centre back we wouldn’t need to constantly have 2 defensive midfielders for protection freeing up a position for a creative midfielder who could score a few himself and create more chances for others .Then add 2 full backs that can drive forward to provide crosses and create chances,at the moment our full backs ( even though they are converted wingers ) show no attacking threat whatsoever