Forget the goals part, you lost on votes.
I think you can argue that Sivori has done more and over a much longer period than Neymar, but considering Neymar's form in the past 18 months I think he's on a good way to surpass Sivori, arguably plays on a level that matches Sivori's peak. I strongly disagree with Elkjaer being a signficant upgrade on Suarez though. I admit that I probably underrated Suarez a bit when he moved to Barca, but I think he's in sensational form for quite some time now and has surpassed Elkjaer's peak by quite a bit. Suarez is a much, much better finisher than Elkjaer ever was while offering a similar level in his link-up, hold-up play and movement. I get that it was a much more defensive era back then, but Elkjaer's goalscoring record really isn't up to par here.
Ukulele.
Yeah I mistype that one every bloody time.
As I said earlier in the thread, I'd have them about par as there is a number of similarities. Suarez is trickier in tight situations and can really embarrass top defenders, yet Elkjaer was a fine and often under-rated dribbler. Elkjaer offers more physical presence, particularly back to goal, but they are both exceptional at harrying and bullying defenders. The defender-friendly environment of the 1980s versus the attacker-friendliness of the 2010s makes comparing their respective scoring records very difficult. Even moreso when we account for the huge disparity in the resources held by the top teams now compared to the 1980s. Nevertheless you'd give Suarez an edge there - I think 'much, much better' is too strong - for how he has plundered goals in recent years (the dry spell in 2010-2012 apart). If we look at international football, which is far less affected by either of those variables, Elkjaer has a slightly better record. So I'd qualify in that sense and overall place them on a similar footing. Obviously while Elkjaer was basically done at 30, Suarez is continuing to write his story and, should he maintain the current performance level for another couple of seasons, is well placed to overtake him.
Aye, I don't think Elkjaer ever hit double figures in a season in Serie A, which is pretty damning in comparison to Suarez despite the different eras.
I don't think that Elkjaer's international record is that special considering the creativity in his team. He had a fantastic supporting cast and was pretty much from the start their main forward. Obviously he had fantastic overall performances for Denmark, especially at the World Cup in '86, but as a finisher? Nope, I don't buy it. Not that Suarez is particularly lethal either, but even for his nationalteam Elkjaer never scored in a knockout game at a tournament or against one of the elite sides. His game winner against Belgium is probably the closest to that he ever got.
Yeah, that sounds correct. In Verona's title winning season, Briegel actually outscored him playing as an attacking box to box midfielder.
Agreed with the Messi vs Eusebio point. There is more firepower in your side and I can see Messi with Charlton, Sivori and Elkjaer working a treat. Also, I rate Schwarzenbeck higher than Costacurta but in this match-up I could have seen the latter faring better with Scirea alongside him. Just noticed that you had Luis Enrique on the bench. Could have been a better tactical fit with him as a LWB and with Schnellinger playing as the CB imo. Hansen is a fine CB but doesn't quite have the aura that the likes of Djalma Santos/Scirea/Schnellinger had tbh and I think Schnellinger's presence in the middle would have made for a more imposing spine, with Enrique's graft and dynamism proving invaluable on the left flank.
I'd rate Suarez as a better finisher too but I'd rate Elkjaer as a complete package, higher than Suarez. He was arguably more dynamic, more direct, provided a better physical presence and was a better foil overall, although Suarez was a pretty fine one himself and a more skilful player. With two great goalscoring forwards in Sivori and Messi alongside him, I'd rate Elkjaer as the better fit. Not that Suarez can't play that role, as he is doing so with Messi and Neymar currently, but I'd just about prefer Elkjaer myself. Also imo Suarez hasn't surpassed Elkjaer's peak yet. Elkjaer was one of the better forwards in the Euro 1984 and won the bronze ball in the 1986 WC, in addition to winning the Ballon d'Or silver and bronze ball in 1984 and 1985 behind Platini.
Agree with that. But if we're talking sheer numbers we have to take the nature of the league into consideration: Hard to dig up anyone who posted very impressive numbers during those years in the Serie A.
Virdis and Altobelli come to mind for couple of seasons during that time. Also it's fair to say Seria A had 16 teams, at the time.
Altobelli was frequently there or thereabouts in the top scorer lists *, but he would seem to underline the point rather than disproving it. He was statistically just as likely to post numbers around the 10 mark as the 18 or thereabouts which was his highest. Hardly impressive no matter how you look at it.
In the relevant year when Verona won the league, Elkjaer scored 8 goals, Briegel 9 and Galderisi 11 for Verona. I do think that tells a story regarding his goalscoring even within the context of the crazy defensive Serie A. I know that there was a bit of a random factor to the top scorer lists (fewer games, lots of goals from set-pieces) and that 15 goals was already a terrific output for a striker, but still, it's tough to imagine present day Suarez to be outscored by a significantly inferior attacker and a box to box midfielder in his own team no matter what the conditions are.
yeah around those years and Catenaccio era it will be hard to find a prolific striker scoring remotely close to what Suarez is hitting now. Of course there is the 30 games per season max at Seria a as well, while Suarez could play 8 games more on paper.
Yeah, that's fair enough. I'd agree with that. Maybe I did go overboard with the 'significant upgrade' quip too.
one quick look at transfermarkd and during that season he started only 21 games missing month during December/January. Sure the pure number might seem low but there are other factors to be considered comparing to Suarez and his time at Pool and Barca.
22 and one more game as a sub. Elkjaer's goalscoring record at Verona has been pretty consistent over the years though, it's about 1 goal in 3 games and the same was true for that year. Let's assume he might have scored 1-2 more in the 4 games Briegel additionally played or 2-3 in the 6 games Galderisi additionally played, my point still stands.
Yeah, obviously. It wasn't really a discussion if he was great. It was more a reaction to Joga's comment that he considers Elkjaer a significant upgrade on present day Suarez, who's clearly already a damn fantastic player. I understand that it wasn't just about the individual quality but also about who fits better, but still.
.Aye, I get that. And I agree. Much as I dislike Suarez and much as I respect Joga's opinion, the statement makes no sense. At most you could make a case for the pair of them being on the same level - but Elkjaer isn't a significant upgrade on Suarez.
As much as I love and admire Careca, I really don't think he was as ruthless of a goalscorer as the names you put up there. If anything, I'd group him with Elkjaer in that he was a great complete forward who provided the likes of Maradona, Zico, and Socrates the perfect platform for their ultra-attacking game. However, I would agree that he was a better finisher than Elkjaer, but ruthless is taking it a bit too far with Careca IMO.
