Billy No Mates Draft: R1 - Joga Bonito vs Stobzilla

What will the result be?


  • Total voters
    17
  • Poll closed .

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,974
Joga Bonito

The team is built around an exciting and complete attack with Maradona as its crown jewel, and El Pibe will have full reign over the side and a free role here. Naturally the idea was to build a sturdy foundation and a complete and fluid forward line which is capable of excelling in various aspects.

Tactics

It's a fairly straightforward team with two excellent attacking full-backs who excelled at both basic phases of the game, a complementary and solid French CB pairing, an impasse of an midfield trio with Monti in a custom role* and a fluid and interchanging forward trio with Maradona in a free role.


*
Monti will play his revolutionary centro mediano (halfway house) role which he did to great effect for Pozzo's metodo.


I believe Monti would thrive in this more nuanced role, rather than the straightforward DM role - which he was brilliant at for Argentina too, leading them to a Copa America trophy and a Olympics and World Cup final. Firstly, I believe Monti's intelligence and versatility could prove to be a good counter-measure against the opposition's fluid but a tad bit centrally oriented attack with wing-forwards such as Kubala, Hamrin/Francescoli who loved cutting in. Secondly, the midfield duo of Breitner-Tardelli is as fearsome and complete as it gets which would allow Monti to play his custom role to perfection here. Finally, it also allows Krol and Gerets more freedom to venture forward (not that they needed Monti playing a custom role to do so, but it helps), which in turn gives more freedom to my roaming forward trio positionally.

Defense - The 'Iron Curtain' Dasayev takes his place in between the sticks. The full-back duo of Krol and Gerets were both capable of manning their flanks single-handedly and they will be given freedom to impose themselves here. Tresor-Thuram is a duo that is as complete as it gets in terms of their physicality and defensive prowess. Both are the rare breed of defenders who didn't have a chink in their armour which could be exploited by a specific type of attacker, nor did they require a certain type of defensive parter to complement them defensively.

Midfield - Monti would play his custom role here both influencing the 'midfield battle' and dropping deeper to sweep up anything in front of the defense. Naturally he will frequently lock horns with Laudrup and he will look to restrict the Dane's influence as best as he can. Breitner plays his trademark all-conquering B2B role and will also pose a significant goal threat (44 goals in 83 app at his peak) in addition to his defensive prowess and all-round threat on the ball. Tardelli would play the relatively more defensive B2B role, frequently harrying the opposition and being a solid presence in the middle of the pitch. It's key to note that it's not black and white, with both players being brilliant at both phases of the game and could very well easily exchange roles.

Whilst Monti-Tardelli-Breitner is truly a 'fearsome' midfield trident to behold, their talents on the ball should be underrated at your own peril. All three were great at carrying the ball forward and were excellent passers on the ball. Italy's WC team heavily relied on Monti to be both their backbone whilst also relying on him to bridge the attack and defense with his passing abilities. Tardelli provided the legs and dynamism for both the Juventus and Italian sides whilst also frequently carrying the ball forward and even helping provide width at times. The tigerish Breitner dominated the centre of the field like very few others for both club and country, but was also a brilliant goalscorer and passer of the ball.

Offense - A fluid forward trio, with Maradona in a free role. Well, he'll just go out and do what he has to do really. In Stoichkov, I have the perfect wing-forward capable of capitalising on the chaos that Maradona would create. His movement off the ball and his predatory instincts meant that he was always capable of pouncing on the tiniest of gaps/cracks that could appear. The Dagger's fluid game-play and versatility meant that he was at ease on either flank and centrally, meaning he could roam alongside the forward line, frequently probing for opening and pop up anywhere. Just watch 5 minutes from any point of this & this and you'd get the point I'm trying to make. He was a master at eluding defenders and an apex predator of the highest order. In Law I have the perfect spearhead for the roaming forward role, who offers just about everything you'd want from a centre-forward. It's hard to think of a phenomenal goalscorer who was equally at ease at both flanks, in deeper areas and of course, in the box. He'd be a dream alongside Maradona and Stoichkov :drool:.

Once again, just like my midfield, it is important to note that all three were fantastically well-rounded players. Maradona isn't just a 'creator' nor is Stoichkov just a 'goalscorer' and of course Law isn't just a 'goalscoring spearhead'. I don't quite need to say much about Maradona's game but I do think his goalscoring exploits get underrated a wee bit. Granted he scored a fair amount of penalties and free-kicks but it is no mean feat scoring 5 goals in a WC and of course being Napoli's top scorer of all time - 81 goals in 188 games - in the ridiculously strong Italian Serie A, where he had to come up against the likes of Rijkaard, Scirea, Baresi, Matthäus, Bergomi, Maldini etc and even finished as a top scorer once in Serie A. Stoichkov was as likely to pop up out of nowhere to score a goal as he was to skinning his man and delivering a pearler with his left peg. Law was your consummate forward who had just about everything in his arsenal.

IMPOSING SPINE with a cage like central midfield and defense featuring Tresor-Thuram-Monti-Tardelli-Breitner. Tresor is arguably the greatest French CB after one Larry White and he was a true leader for the late 70s-early 80s French vintage. Thuram is regarded as one of the greatest stoppers to ever grace the game and his bronze ball winning exploits in the 1998 WC was nothing short of incredible to say the least. Monti was the backbone of the Argentine side which won a Copa America and made an Olympics (considered as a pre-cursor to WC) and a WC final, in addition to marshalling the Italian side to a WC and a CEIC (Euros) triumph. Tardelli is widely regarded as the greatest Italian defensive/b2b midfielder of all time and was an integral component of the successful Juventus and WC winning Italian sides. Likewise Breitner, one of the greatest B2B midfielders ever, was an immense figure for both Germany and Bayern, leading them to several titles.

Stobzilla has a great side and a fantastic defense which will be a tough nut to crack. I do think I could eek out an advantage in the midfield stakes and with Maradona at the head of it all, in what I believe to be a complementary set-up, I do think I might just edge this one.

Joga



Stobz

 
Last edited:

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,974
I am going to stick to the short and sweet style of write up that was prevalent in the alst draft because I liked it.

Style/Gameplan

The only thing you can really do to try and keep Maradona out of a game is to keep the ball away from him, everyone that has been picked here has a calmness in possession added to the fact that they are all quality passers of the ball and in the case of my forward line, expert dribblers, when we have the ball we are probably one of the best in the draft line ups at keeping it. This coupled with a forward line which are all rapid and capable of the spectacular we have a real good shot. There are goals and assists permeating this entire side.

At the back we start with probably the greatest all around left back of all time, Paolo Maldini, instructed here to sit in alongisde Bobby Moore, possibly the greatest centre back of all time blessed with both perfect timing and positioning and is also as capable on the ball as most midfield players. The original Libeiro Domingos Da Guia is alongside him in central defence a winner and leader wherever he played in South America, he revolutionised what it means to be a defender in possession of the football. On the right we round out with possibly the greatest right back ever. Carlos Alberto, known for his forays forward it must not be forgotten that he also spent time playing as a centre back, defensive responsibilities shall not be shirked but he is as formidable a weapon going forward as you are likely to get from the position.

They are backed up by one of the greatest keepers of modern times Edwin van der Sar whom is again more than capable in distribution as he is at his primary function. A calming influence, if one was needed given the amount of leaders in the back line.

I made mention that Gheorghe Popescu was a system fit when I picked him but that probably under sells him, he was the defensive anchor of the last great Romanian side capable of both central midfield and defensive duties, here he is asked to perform in the former but is apt to fill in should Da Guia push forward to join the attack, he can also move Da Guia to play out at right back (a familiar position for the Old Brazilian) should the unlikely occur and Carlos is caught in transition.

Reading up on Didi from previous drafts and various articles it seems that he is ideally placed to play the less advanced of he and Laudrup, not blessed with a tremendous turn of pace he did however have a great engine to get up and down the pitch and is capable of picking passes like nobodies business marry that to the passing ability of one Laudrup who also has a deceptively quick first step and fantastic close control and again you have a midfield that can control the game.

Ahead of all these pass masters you have a front 3 that went for 790+ goals combined in their club careers alone. Laszlo Kubala WAS Barcelona's record scorer until one Lionel Messi came along, but he was a player so great that they built a fecking stadium so people could come see him play, known as the "Camp Nou". A player of supreme technique, not only for scoring, but for creating, a master craftsman if he wasn't finding a pass he was probably dribbling it round you. To his left, 1975 Ballon d'or winner Oleh Blokhin, blessed with fantastic pace and could finish with either foot, similar to Kubala he can dazzle you with his dribbling as well and a man not to dissimilar on the right, Kurt Hamrin is probably Sweden's best ever player, again someone who can finish off of either foot and is devastatingly quick with and without the ball.

We have throughout this team players who can pass it around, find space, create their own space off the dribble and all work exceptionally hard. The defence is packed with leaders and 3 out of the 4 have an extremely strong case for being called the best ever in their respective position. I am under no illusions as to the size of the task presented to take on Joga's side but all the ingredients are there. Quality on the ball, Pace, Leaders, Strong defence and Hard work are what get the job done against this side and we have it all in abundance.

Thank you for reading and lastly, good luck to Joga.
 

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,974
The usual poll please:

Joga wins by 1 goal
Joga wins by 2 goals
Joga wins by 3 goals
Stobzilla wins by 1 goal
Stobzilla wins by 2 goals
Stobzilla wins by 3 goals

Public poll, votes visible and changeable, 24 hrs.

@Rado_N
 

Joga Bonito

The Art of Football
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
8,242
Stobz defense looks even better on paper than I thought it would be :lol:. Also a great move using Kubala in that role as I figured you'd have started with a 4-2-3-1 and the current attack makes much more sense. Initially had reservations as to how Laudrup might work there but given his intelligence, versatility and tactical nous he'll probably play pretty well as a buffer of sorts between Didi and Kubala, although I do believe he could have been given a greater role with more responsibilities That being said I do think Monti's custom role is well suited for this match-up and gives me additional solidity against Kubala in his withdrawn forward role. Also, my FBs have an additional layer of security with both my CBs (esp Thuram) being comfortable in the channels, with Monti capable of dropping back when needed.

It's going to be really tough to break through that defense but I reckon I just have about enough firepower and creativity with a sturdy foundation to edge this game.
 
Last edited:

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,653
I think Stobz biggest concern for this game should be his midfield. Laudrup/Didi/Popescu.

I'm not sure Didi and Laudrup will offer enough defensively and all would go down on Popescu who is also instructed to drop in the center of defence.

On the other hand that Joga diamond looks very good with Gerets and Krol providing width.
 

Balu

Der Fußballgott
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
15,102
Location
Munich
Supports
Bayern Munich
At first glance I really didn't like Stobz' side, but it starts to grow on me and there certainly are quite a few interesting ideas in it that are worth discussing. Not sure if it's enough to win against another excellent side from Joga, but the scoreline is really harsh.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,432
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
The 6-0 deficit is quite harsh. I really don't see Joga scoring here. With no wide-men on that flank Maldini just has Gerets to handle which he'll do so comfortably. It also leaves him free to tuck in slightly compressing the defensive line and squeezing out space. My only concern about Stobz formation is suitability of fullbacks for this role. Neither Maldini or Carlos Alberto are traditional wide men to provide width and overlapping runs. Without them, the wide service to Blohkin/Hamrin might not be sufficient.

Monti vs Kubala will be a nice battle. Think one where neither has the advantage. Not really convinced on Monti's role here. With excellent B2B's in Breitner and Tardelli, surely a pivot DM should be a nice balance rather all 3 playing B2B's. I really see Monti's movement upfront opening him counter. Nice pass from Laudrup to Kubala will leave Joga exposed at the back.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,653
7-0 now. It's too harsh I agree. Stobz has compiled an excellent defensive line.
 

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,187
Location
Interweb
The 6-0 deficit is quite harsh. I really don't see Joga scoring here. With no wide-men on that flank Maldini just has Gerets to handle which he'll do so comfortably. It also leaves him free to tuck in slightly compressing the defensive line and squeezing out space. My only concern about Stobz formation is suitability of fullbacks for this role. Neither Maldini or Carlos Alberto are traditional wide men to provide width and overlapping runs. Without them, the wide service to Blohkin/Hamrin might not be sufficient.

Monti vs Kubala will be a nice battle. Think one where neither has the advantage. Not really convinced on Monti's role here. With excellent B2B's in Breitner and Tardelli, surely a pivot DM should be a nice balance rather all 3 playing B2B's. I really see Monti's movement upfront opening him counter. Nice pass from Laudrup to Kubala will leave Joga exposed at the back.
Problem is his MF against Joga's. Joga has 4 tenacious fellows in there. I can see Didi holding his own in there but I am not sure about Laudrup and Popescu against that lot. Even if we account into Kubala occupying Monti by dropping deep.. Diego+Brietner+Tardelli is pretty daunting.
 

Invictus

Poster of the Year 2015 & 2018
Staff
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
15,262
Supports
Piracy on the High Seas.
Voted 1-0 for Stobzilla, just to get him off the mark. @Joga Bonito, I hope you don't mind. If by a remote chance it proves to be decisive by the end, I'll change it to 1/ 2/3-0 in your favor. :)
 

Theon

Lord of the Iron Islands
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
13,289
I actually don't think its anywhere near as one sided as the voting suggests - though Popescu is a problem for me, he isn't the player to bring balance to that midfield. A more suitable anchor and I think Stobz' team would be great.

But anyway, as it is I still think he has the set up to cause Joga problems. By playing without a recognised striker and two advanced, goalscoring wide forwards I can't see any way that Joga's fullbacks will be providing much width at all.

Width in a diamond can be difficult to achieve at the best of times, but with Stobz' set up I can see it being a real problem - particularly given the passing ability throughout Stobz' midfield and defence. Pinging balls over the top to Hamrin and Blokhin looks to be open for the counter throughout the game, and would necessitate a much more defensive approach from the fullbacks IMO.

To follow on - I can then see that lack of width being an issue against such a rock solid defensive unit, particularly with Maldini of all people tucking in.
 
Last edited:

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
Yeah, score is oviously bloody harsh, as others have said. Happens sometimes, though, no slight on Stobz' team necessarily.

His back four is immense and should mean he won't lose by more than one here. I don't quite fancy that midfield of his, though. Think Joga's set-up is better, ultimately, with pretty much unquestionable players in pretty much unquestionable roles/positions.
 

Joga Bonito

The Art of Football
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
8,242
but it starts to grow on me and there certainly are quite a few interesting ideas in it that are worth discussing
Aye, for me that forward trio is the most interesting one. I reckon Kubala will play a creative withdrawn role, with Blokhin being the CF/WF and Hamrin frequently cutting in from the right. Reminds me of harms set-up in the reality draft.

I really don't see Joga scoring here.
I know Stobz has a great defense but I have an excellent attack too, with a signifcant goalscoring threat.

Maradona - Napoli's top scorer of all time - 81 goals in 188 games - in the ridiculously strong Italian Serie A, where he had to come up against the likes of Rijkaard, Scirea, Baresi, Matthäus, Bergomi, Brehme, Maldini etc and even finished as a top scorer once in Serie A.

Stoichkov - Won the WC 1994 Golden Shoe; 1990 European Golden Boot; scored 109 goals in 5 years in his first stint at Barca and was a key component of the 'Dream Team'

Law - At his peak he was banging in goals for fun before knee injuries started plaguing him a wee bit. His United record of 46 goals in one season is yet to be matched and let's not forget he won the ballon d'Or for that season despite not winning a single trophy. One can imagine how great a season he must have had when he pipped Luisito Suárez, the mastermind behind Spain's 1964 Euros win and Inter's first European Cup trophy - was the best player in the Euros that year and won the MOTM against Real in the EC final...

Also keep in mind that these 3 are a truly fierce bunch, all three were fairly tenacious hard-nosed cnuts who got going when it got tough. All three seemed to share a common hatred for officials :lol: (both Law and Stoichkov have served long suspensions for falling afoul of the refs/officials). A peek at a collection of their quotes will always include praise for both their mentality and their talents - which they had in abundance.


Cruyff said:
I signed him not because of his goals but for his character and mentality. He has a hard but strong character – everybody knows that. I badly needed such a personality. He was fast, sharp; he scored, he passed and he had a killer instinct in front of goal.
Dimitar Penev said:
There was never a doubt that he was a tremendous talent and had a strong character. His explosive speed, directness and left foot were unbelievable
Jose Mourinho said:
He is a real giant. I first saw him in a tournament in Setubal in the late 1980s and he, Kostadinov and Luboslav Penev just demolished my team. He was so young but so impressive. Later with Barcelona he demolished Porto in the 1994 UEFA Champions League semi-final when I was working as an assistant to Sir Bobby Robson. In 1996 as Barcelona assistant coach I talked to him as Bobby Robson wanted him back at Barça from Parma. His motivation and class were phenomenal. That's why he belongs to that special band of footballing giants
With no wide-men on that flank
Stoichkov is playing a roaming role, where he would be probing the entire forward line - channels/flanks and so on and with Maradona who was pretty damn decent at drifting onto the flanks or where the feck he wants, and Law being the perfect roaming centre forward to cap it all off, it won't just be a static formation with Stoichkov just cutting in from the left. There is obviously some discipline involved and relative edges to each player's role but they do have more freedom than usual, playing in a fluid forward trio.
 
Last edited:

Joga Bonito

The Art of Football
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
8,242
Not really convinced on Monti's role here. With excellent B2B's in Breitner and Tardelli, surely a pivot DM should be a nice balance rather all 3 playing B2B's. I really see Monti's movement upfront opening him counter.
Well, thank you for bringing this up. :D It would have been bit of an overkill with 3 B2Bs, and Monti is actually the perfect and arguably the first pivot DM.

Monti will play his revolutionary centro mediano (halfway house) role which he did to great effect for Pozzo's metodo.




Adam Digby said:
Their 2-3-2-3 formation - forever immortalised on foosball tables around the globe - would perhaps be of the greatest benefit to Luis Monti. Playing as the centre half, he would also arguably become the game's first defensive midfielder, as Carcano asked him to defy the usual attacking forays of that role, to cover the pitch laterally and mark opposition strikers. Monti dropped back in an unprecedented manner, providing cover to his full-backs (centre-backs) and paving way for the mediano role. He was clearly a rugged player, one of that generations' most fearsome tacklers, but had technical skills to make him a stand-out who earned the nickname double ancho - double wide - due to the incredible way he covered the pitch.
Brian Glanville said:
Monti was a big, tough, ruthless centre half, not of the third back, stopper kind, dedicated merely to "blotting out," as they used to say, the opposing centre forward. No, he was one of the roving kind, a dominant force, not merely in defence, but also in midfield, ever ready to carry the ball into attack; and to deal hardly with the opposition.
Jonathan Wilson said:
Pozzo abhorred the W-M formation in which the centre-half became a stopper, an 'overcoat' for the opposing centre-forward. He did, though, recognise that in the new reality the centre-half had to take on some defensive responsibilities.

Pozzo found the perfect player for the role in Luisito Monti. Monti became a centro mediano (halfway house) – not quite Charlie Roberts (attacking centre-half) but not Herbie Roberts (defensive centre-half) either. He would drop when the other team had possession and mark the opposing centre-forward, but would advance and become an attacking fulcrum when his side had the ball. Although he was not a third back, he played deeper than a traditional centre-half and so the two inside-forwards retreated to support the wing-halves. Italy's shape became a 2-3-2-3, the W-W. At the time it seemed, as the journalist Mario Zappa put it in La Gazzetta della Sport, "a model of play that is the synthesis of the best elements of all the most admired systems", something borne out by Italy's success.
Here is a fantastic article by Jonathan Wilson on the comparison between Pep's Barca and Pozzo's metodo, where he even calls Busquets the modern-Monti in terms of what their roles dictated.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2010/oct/26/the-question-barcelona-reinventing-w-w


So yeah, Monti just wasn't 'just' a DM (although he could play that more straightforward role to high distinction as well, like he did for Argentina), he was a truly revolutionary figure for that Italian vintage and absolutely critical to their WC and CEIC (Euros) wins.
 
Last edited:

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,187
Location
Interweb
Quite fitting that after riding Maradona to a handsome draft win, Stob would fall to him.
 

mazhar13

Kermit Inc. 2022
Scout
Joined
Sep 10, 2013
Messages
36,830
Location
Toronto, ON, Canada
Stobzilla with the W-M high-pressing approach is actually getting me excited and making me consider voting for him. If anything, with the high number of technically strong, skilled footballers he has, this is the best approach for him. I mean, if Cruyff, Bielsa, Pep, and Sampaoli can make it work with fewer defensively adept players, I don't see how Stobz can't do it.

Then again, he is facing a tough, mean, well-balanced, and intelligent team, so perhaps a score draw or a 1-goal win is possible for Stobz at best here.
 

Joga Bonito

The Art of Football
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
8,242
@Stobzilla Scoreline is far too harsh and like Chester stated, not exactly representative of the score in reality. Anyway, it was a great defense that you constructed and the attack was unfortunately always in danger of being underrated, despite sporting some pretty strong individuals.
 

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,974
@Stobzilla Scoreline is far too harsh and like Chester stated, not exactly representative of the score in reality. Anyway, it was a great defense that you constructed and the attack was unfortunately always in danger of being underrated, despite sporting some pretty strong individuals.
Given that most of the scores are win by 1 goal. I reckon it was a valiant 3-2 to you.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
There you go. Knockout win.

Also, not starting Francescoli originally - no, that won't do, really.

I'd have played him instead of the Swede, probably.

I might as well also admit that I don't really like Kubala. Don't know why, precisely - just a thing.