Billy No Mates Draft: SF - Joga/Gio vs Invictus/Theon

[Theon]

With Scirea and Rijkaard picks I think Gio/Joga had their picks exactly with this game in mind.

They did great to neutralize as much as they can I/T incredible attack.

How you can have Joga winning by two goals is honestly beyond me Enigma, particularly considering your knowledge of the midfield (which I know others have been unfamiliar with).

Van Basten, Messi and Ronaldo were all averaging a goal a game in their best seasons - And Platini scored 82 goals in 139 games from midfield for Juventus, which is an incredible statistic and a significantly better goalscoring record than Maradona.

In Joga's team the only player who really compares when it comes to goalscoring is Puskas. Even ignoring the issue over whether this is an ideal platform for Puskas, he's operating in an inside left position marshalled by Carlos Alberto, Elias Figueroa and Matthias Sammer - It doesnt get more difficult than that and its hard to imagine an attacker being more comprehensively neutralised.

Carlos Alberto + Figueroa vs Puskas is a tougher match up offensively than Gerets + Thuram vs Ronaldo for instance - And he is Joga's only top tier goal threat.

 

[The Stain]

Kudos on the effort @Theon . It really should be a closer match this..

 

[Gio]

How you can have Joga winning by two goals is honestly beyond me Enigma, particularly considering your knowledge of the midfield (which I know others have been unfamiliar with).

Van Basten, Messi and Ronaldo were all averaging a goal a game in their best seasons - And Platini scored 82 goals in 139 games from midfield for Juventus, which is an incredible statistic and a significantly better goalscoring record than Maradona.

In Joga's team the only player who really compares when it comes to goalscoring is Puskas. Even ignoring the issue over whether this is an ideal platform for Puskas, he's operating in an inside left position marshalled by Carlos Alberto, Elias Figueroa and Matthias Sammer - It doesnt get more difficult than that and its hard to imagine an attacker being more comprehensively neutralised.

Carlos Alberto + Figueroa vs Puskas is a tougher match up offensively than Gerets + Thuram vs Ronaldo for instance - And he is Joga's only top tier goal threat.

What I presume @Enigma_87 was getting at is that we're well suited to deal with your strongest threats, whereas it's more questionable how your midfield and defence will deal with ours. Obviously you boast a fantastic attack yet both wide threats have a tough job to seriously influence the game. Messi is up against the greatest left wing-back of all in Giacinto Facchetti and probably the second best left side-back in Ruud Krol, while C. Ronaldo is up against Lillian Thuram who matches him both in quality and in style. Inevitably it's more fluid than that, but we have effectively cherry-picked the best possible players to come up against such an attack, with the greatest sweeper proven in a back three of all in Gaetano Scirea bringing it all together. On top of that your primary playmaker in Michel Platini is, again, a sensational player but one who will be severely limited by Frank Rijkaard.

Meanwhile we have Diego Maradona facing up against Matthias Sammer who is having to play a much more limited role of the expansive one he excelled in. And he'll surely be overworked given the platform-providing-presence of Frank Rijkaard and Paul Breitner. With 700-goal Ferenc Puskas and Hristo Stoichkov completing the attacking trident, there is a range of threats that will leave your back four and central midfield unit exposed.

 

[Theon]

What I presume @Enigma_87 was getting at is that we're well suited to deal with your strongest threats, whereas it's more questionable how your midfield and defence will deal with ours. Obviously you boast a fantastic attack yet both wide threats have a tough job to seriously influence the game. Messi is up against the greatest left wing-back of all in Giacinto Facchetti and probably the second best left side-back in Ruud Krol, while C. Ronaldo is up against Lillian Thuram who matches him both in quality and in style. Inevitably it's more fluid than that, but we have effectively cherry-picked the best possible players to come up against such an attack, with the greatest sweeper proven in a back three of all in Gaetano Scirea bringing it all together. On top of that your primary playmaker in Michel Platini is, again, a sensational player but one who will be severely limited by Frank Rijkaard.

Meanwhile we have Diego Maradona facing up against Matthias Sammer who is having to play a much more limited role of the expansive one he excelled in. And he'll surely be overworked given the platform-providing-presence of Frank Rijkaard and Paul Breitner. With 700-goal Ferenc Puskas and Hristo Stoichkov completing the attacking trident, there is a range of threats that will leave your back four and central midfield unit exposed.

I don't think you believe what you're saying here Gio which is unfortunate.

Messi and Ronaldo "have a tough job to seriously influence the game".. Because they're up against Thuram and Facchetti? They're literally scoring at a record breaking rate and will go down as two of the greatest to ever play the game, but that falls to pieces because they're up against a couple of good fullbacks?

And that doesn't even address the six time Ballon d'Or winning Michel Platini and Marco van Basten. If Thuram and Krol are doubling up on Messi and Ronaldo then presumably that'll create space in the middle, which someone like Van Basten is primed to exploit.

It certainly is the range of threats that will leave your back four exposed - it's hard to envisage a more devastating attacking quartet.

And I'm sorry saying that Messi and Ronaldo will struggle to influence the game and then talking up Puskas just doesn't make sense - Puskas is up against Carlos Alberto and Elias Figueroa. There isn't a player on the pitch with a more difficult task than Puskas - which you're well aware of given your knowledge of Figueroa.

At the other end, I have Figueroa on par with Baresi.

I'd say there are two reasons the greatest central defenders (Beckenbauer, Baresi, Figueroa) stand out. First is that weren't just good defenders, they also added so much more on the ball. Second, is their immense intelligence in reading the game, organising and dictating play.

 

[Enigma_87]

How you can have Joga winning by two goals is honestly beyond me Enigma, particularly considering your knowledge of the midfield (which I know others have been unfamiliar with).

Van Basten, Messi and Ronaldo were all averaging a goal a game in their best seasons - And Platini scored 82 goals in 139 games from midfield for Juventus, which is an incredible statistic and a significantly better goalscoring record than Maradona.

In Joga's team the only player who really compares when it comes to goalscoring is Puskas. Even ignoring the issue over whether this is an ideal platform for Puskas, he's operating in an inside left position marshalled by Carlos Alberto, Elias Figueroa and Matthias Sammer - It doesnt get more difficult than that and its hard to imagine an attacker being more comprehensively neutralised.

Carlos Alberto + Figueroa vs Puskas is a tougher match up offensively than Gerets + Thuram vs Ronaldo for instance - And he is Joga's only top tier goal threat.

For me is more of a matchup issue here than individuals. What I see is that Gio/Joga have constructed a side that really matches up well with your attacking threat - the focal point of your team.

Don't get me wrong I think you guys have built a brilliant side, especially attacking wise, but I can see Gio/Joga being a great fit defensively and on counter attack I can see them scoring more than you especially since they have Puskas/Maradona and Stoichkov who comes against Briegel/Cannavaro and I can see him having a good game in this match.

Your biggest weapon in this game and best player is Messi who comes against Facchetti and Krol - really can't think of a better pair to put against him. Then you have C.Ronaldo against Thuram and Gerets - again excellent match and then MvB against Scirea and whoever of Thuram/Krol is around him. It's really solid defence all round in their best positions IMO and at the same time I can see them working very well.

Then you have Rijkaard against Platini (IMO the goat in the DM position), Breitner who matches him excellently in terms of passing and distribution of the ball as well as box to box. In front of them Maradona(who IMO is the best player on the pitch) with Puskas a natural goalscorer in free role and a excellent foil on the right in Stoichkov who is complimented by Gerets on the flank.

I believe this team being a well oiled machine. They have probably the best options to neutralize the attack. I rate Scirea a little below Baresi, but IMO he's the best defender on the pitch.

Then on the other hand Sammer against Maradona, Briegel against Stoichkov. I think those two getting the better off their counterparts. Hence the 2 goals.

I don't see Briegel/Cannavaro/Figueroa/Sammer working well against Stoichkov/Puskas/Maradona to be fair. The latter IMO will have an edge while I can see fairly equal fight at the other side.

 

[Gio]

I don't think you believe what you're saying here Gio which is unfortunate.

Messi and Ronaldo "have a tough job to seriously influence the game".. Because they're up against Thuram and Facchetti? They're literally scoring at a record breaking rate and will go down as two of the greatest to ever play the game, but that falls to pieces because they're up against a couple of good fullbacks?

Of course they will have a tough time to seriously influence the game. These would be the toughest opponents they've ever faced - they're not just a "couple of good fullbacks". Some understatement that. It's not about under-estimating their fantastic talents, it's about recognising what they're up against and comparing it with what we're up against. Pick a left-back or left-wing-back to deal with Messi from the depths of all time and you'd either pick Facchetti or Maldini. Pick a right centre-back to deal with Cristiano and that man would likely be the imperious Lillian Thuram. Pick a midfielder to take on Platini and that man would be Rijkaard. It's not just about confining it to a set of head-to-head match-ups as we have exceptional support from the likes of Scirea, Krol, Breitner and Gerets (who Cruyff rated as the finest right-back of the 1980s).

Pick a pair of central midfielders to deal with Maradona? I'm not convinced either Redondo or Sammer would be on the shortlist to be fair. Neither are particularly well suited to that job. And Sammer's midfield career was relatively unremarkable and he gets in here, into this company, for his brilliance after switching away from midfield to libero. So it's less convincing.

Inevitably Maradona will create space from time to time and, as soon as that happens, Puskas and Stoichkov will be overloading Figueroa and Cannavaro. And I like Cannavaro, but he starts to look like a bit of a weak link in this rarefied company.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't think you believe what you're saying here Gio which is unfortunate.

Messi and Ronaldo "have a tough job to seriously influence the game".. Because they're up against Thuram and Facchetti? They're literally scoring at a record breaking rate and will go down as two of the greatest to ever play the game, but that falls to pieces because they're up against a couple of good fullbacks?

Couple of good fullbacks is incredibly harsh. Yesterday Messi scored his first goal in 6 or 7 games against Cech and this time he was at Arsenal. He's up against probably the best one in history.

The way Gio/Joga has set up their shop is 5 of the top defenders in the game shielded by the best DM in the game. Rijkaard(and Beckenbauer) are the only ones I'd take in front of Redondo in terms of that DM position so it's not like I don't rate him. I also rate Sammer a lot and have no issue in partnering Redondo, but he's up against Maradona.

And that doesn't even address the six time Ballon d'Or winning Michel Platini and Marco van Basten. If Thuram and Krol are doubling up on Messi and Ronaldo then presumably that'll create space in the middle, which someone like Van Basten is primed to exploit.

It certainly is the range of threats that will leave your back four exposed - it's hard to envisage a more devastating attacking quartet.

And I'm sorry saying that Messi and Ronaldo will struggle to influence the game and then talking up Puskas just doesn't make sense - Puskas is up against Carlos Alberto and Elias Figueroa. There isn't a player on the pitch with a more difficult task than Puskas - which you're well aware of given your knowledge of Figueroa.

Most of the time G/J will have the player with the ball doubled. They also have Rijkaard up there who will also fill in off the ball. The way they are set up they will most likely have more bodies in defence.

In essence I see Joga/Gio's team having 2 advantages on the pitch - Stoichkov/Briegel and Maradona vs Sammer, hence the score. Besides that is up to personal preference and pretty much on par you guys have advantage here and there and G/J at other places.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Sammer here is meant to be playing a libero/DM role - operating ahead of the defence in the area that Maradona would be playing in.

I think this is the key match up. With Sammer on Maradona, most of attack for Joga will have to come from crosses from fullbacks. Not saying Sammer will take Maradona out or nonsense like that, but he still is a great dampener to Maradona's brilliance. Overall I think J/G is a bit outmatched in the middle even with Scirea's support albeit very slightly. Ability of Messi and Ronaldo to cut in and receive balls will aid Platini and J/G's midfield will find that a bit difficult to get a handle on imo. I think I/T will shade this by a goal.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

You're right, it was a tad hyperbolic - but, it's been a rather hectic day for Theon and I, so the quoted post was a rather rushed effort - where too many random thoughts were put in one place without thinking all of it through. Allow us to rephrase that bit, just to make it more palatable, and concise.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bil...a-gio-vs-invictus-theon.415064/#post-18834988

Ah we've all done it mate, I hope I didn't come across as too critical .

 

[Invictus]

Stoichkov/Briegel

See, this part is rather peculiar. 4 man attack vs 5 defenders + 1 midfielder vs 3 man attack with 4 defenders + 1 midfielder. Yet there is supposed to be a distinct numerical advantage, and all of our attackers are double covered?

And, wrt the quoted part - Hans-Peter Briegel was no scrub - as he is being portrayed to be, and we could argue that he is better regarded than Gerets - infact, yeah, he was better than Gerets. This is someone who was the highest ranked German defender twice (when they had Förster Kaltz, Dietz), and Fußballer des Jahres (German Footballer of the Year) once, played 70+ games for arguably the strongest national team of the era - including 2 World Cup finals, and the triumphant Euro 1980 campaign.

Plus, he has Cannavaro to help mark Stoichkov (like Gerets and Thuram are supposed to mark Ronaldo). Yet it's being mentioned as a weakness, while Cristiano is being bottled up. Quite intriguing to say the least. Not to mention the fact that Cristiano's goal output at his prime was twice that of Stoichkov, and he was a much better player that Stoichkov to boot.

Most of the time G/J will have the player with the ball doubled.

Similarly, the Hungarian is being watched closely by Figueroa and Carlos Alberto - just as Messi is supposed to be shut down by Krol and Facchetti. The reasoning that our attackers are being double teamed, while theirs (Stoichkov highlighted) will stroll 1v1 just doesn't stack up. Yes, they have a numerical advantage in defense (1 extra defender), but to counterbalance that - we have a numerical advantage in attack (1 extra attacker). Yet that isn't being fully acknowledged, which is a pity.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I simply don't see how Sammer's role is akin to one in a back three here. In a back three, he generally has two industrious midfielders and two brilliant centre-backs who can facilitate his movement between the lines. He could decide when to drop deep and sweep things up or bomb forward to shore things up in midfield or break forward with the ball, even if one area needs more attention than the others. That's exactly the type of freedom he had and was provided the base for to thrive in. Something like this for example, with Monti.

Spoiler

Here I can easily buy Monti's peak role as a DM/SWP, transitioning between the lines, dropping deep or helping shore up the midfield and occasionally driving forward. Having the freedom and tactical nous to dedicate himself to the facet of the game which needs him the most

As it stands, you have Sammer holding the fort like a limited DM and you'd much rather have Varela/Desailly for that role imo. It was Sammer's all-round game in addition to his excellent defensive game in a free role which set him apart from the rest. Let's not forget how he played in this same DM role for both club and country before his switch to libero and it simply wasn't that great. I don't quite think he is suited to nullifying Maradona in this more specific and reserved holding role imo, and it would probably have been better for him in his peak role as a libero or heck even as a DM/SWP with the proper base.

I think this is the key match up. With Sammer on Maradona, most of attack for Joga will have to come from crosses from fullbacks. Not saying Sammer will take Maradona out or nonsense like that, but he still is a great dampener to Maradona's brilliance. Overall I think J/G is a bit outmatched in the middle even with Scirea's support albeit very slightly. Ability of Messi and Ronaldo to cut in and receive balls will aid Platini and J/G's midfield will find that a bit difficult to get a handle on imo. I think I/T will shade this by a goal.

If Sammer is a great dampener on Maradona, than how would you describe Rijkaard against Platini. And Rijkaard-Breitner against Sammer in a questionable role, and Redondo? I don't see how we are outmatched in the middle tbf. We are well poised in winning the battle at the core as a fair few others have stated, with Maradona having a great platform and isn't exactly against up against personnel who are likely to nullify him. The ability of Messi and Ronaldo cutting in is precisely countered by Thuram and Krol as my side-backs. As you noticed I said Facchetti-Krol in regards to Messi, because that is exactly the area which he thrived playing in - linking up with others, playing those one-twos, playing those great balls into the penalty box or inside left channels for Neymar/Alba, cutting in and scoring. This is an area patrolled by Facchetti, the greatest LB of all time alongside Nilton and quite possibly the greatest LCB after Maldini in Krol.

Likewise, Ronaldo in his Real incarnation will mostly be squaring up against Thuram here, running the channels, cutting in etc and there aren't many you would take over the Frenchman to deal with Cristiano - Thuram had the athleticism and the reading of the game to keep up with Ronaldo.

The key point to note would be how comfortable our defense would be when it's transitioning during different phases of the game. All of our back 5 were truly versatile players comfortable playing in a back 4 - Facchetti in his La Grande role as a LWB in a tucked in back 4, Krol of course played as a LB/CB in a back 4, Scirea too has experience both playing as a libero in a back 4 or a back 5, Thuram too has excelled as a CB, FB, RCB in either a back 4 or a back 5 and Gerets has excelled as a a more restrained full-back or as a wing-back. It's a critical aspect which would serve them well with both Messi and Ronaldo looking to cut in more often than not. It's also real easy to see the side backs meshing together fantastically with the full-backs and/or Scirea for that matter - a great cohesive defenisve unit which doesn't have any of the faults that the average 3-5-2 possesses.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Couple of good fullbacks is incredibly harsh. Yesterday Messi scored his first goal in 6 or 7 games against Cech and this time he was at Arsenal. He's up against probably the best one in history.

The way Gio/Joga has set up their shop is 5 of the top defenders in the game shielded by the best DM in the game. Rijkaard(and Beckenbauer) are the only ones I'd take in front of Redondo in terms of that DM position so it's not like I don't rate him. I also rate Sammer a lot and have no issue in partnering Redondo, but he's up against Maradona.





Most of the time G/J will have the player with the ball doubled. They also have Rijkaard up there who will also fill in off the ball. The way they are set up they will most likely have more bodies in defence.

In essence I see Joga/Gio's team having 2 advantages on the pitch - Stoichkov/Briegel and Maradona vs Sammer, hence the score. Besides that is up to personal preference and pretty much on par you guys have advantage here and there and G/J at other places.

Agreed with this and as quite a few other neutrals have stated, we do have the set-up to best nullify the opposition's game here but I wouldn't neccessarily say the same for them dealing with Breitner and Rijkaard in the middle or Maradona and Stoichkov even for that matter.

 

[mazhar13]

For me, you need someone who was a proper aggressive yet disciplined defensive midfielder to deal with Maradona and how he plays. Someone who will keep him unsettled on the ball and make him feel uncomfortable whenever he gets near it. Even then, you'd struggle to really contain him by mere man marking as Rijkaard experienced several times. To have Sammer play in that role when he really wasn't that strong of an anchor man is somewhat suicidal, IMO. Maradona here has an advantage, and when he has an advantage, his team normally wins.

 

[Theon]

Of course they will have a tough time to seriously influence the game. These would be the toughest opponents they've ever faced - they're not just a "couple of good fullbacks". Some understatement that. It's not about under-estimating their fantastic talents, it's about recognising what they're up against and comparing it with what we're up against. Pick a left-back or left-wing-back to deal with Messi from the depths of all time and you'd either pick Facchetti or Maldini. Pick a right centre-back to deal with Cristiano and that man would likely be the imperious Lillian Thuram.

In the context of an all time draft then they are just a very good fullbacks - with the likes of Messi, Maradona, Platini, Rijkaard we have some of the most influential players of all time on the pitch. In this context I don't think Lillian Thuram is going to be a game changer, as solid as he was.

Saying that these are the toughest opponents they've ever faced goes both ways, as Thuram/Facchetti haven't faced Ronaldo or Messi before. FWIW I don't think its up for debate that someone like Ronaldo is a much more effective left winger than Thuram is a right back.

I also absolutely would not pick Krol for the left centre pack position in a 3-5-2. For all the talk of Sammer its Krol who has never played a role like that before. If I were picking a player for that position it would obviously be Maldini, but of not then an actual stopper centre half with a record of playing the position - Kohler, Forster etc.

It's besides the point anyway and ultimately this just comes down to whether you think those fullbacks can shackle two of of the best players of all time for an entire match. In my opinion they quite clearly cannot, not for 90 minutes with this level of service.


And you deliberately avoided the key part of that post Gio - which was Carlos Alberto + Figueroa against Puskas.

If you want to assess the game using these individual battles then you should show some balance when doing so. You can't say that Messi/Ronaldo will have a tough time to influence the game and then talk up Puskas when he is up against more difficult opponents than either of those two.

Carlos Alberto is a significantly better right back than Gerets and Figueroa is a significantly better centre half than Thuram - Puskas couldn't be facing a more difficult task here, yet it's the opponents attackers who are all shackled.

 

[Gio]

In the context of an all time draft then they are just a very good fullbacks - with the likes of Messi, Maradona, Platini, Rijkaard we have some of the most influential players of all time on the pitch. In this context I don't think Lillian Thuram is going to be a game changer, as solid as he was.

Saying that these are the toughest opponents they've ever faced goes both ways, as Thuram/Facchetti haven't faced Ronaldo or Messi before. FWIW I don't think its up for debate that someone like Ronaldo is a much more effective left winger than Thuram is a right back.

It's besides the point anyway and ultimately this just comes down to whether you think those fullbacks can shackle two of of the best players of all time for an entire match. In my opinion they quite clearly cannot, not for 90 minutes with this level of service.


And you deliberately avoided the key part of that post Gio - which was Carlos Alberto + Figueroa against Puskas.

If you want to assess the game using these individual battles then you should show some balance when doing so. You can't say that Messi/Ronaldo will have a tough time to influence the game and then talk up Puskas when he is up against more difficult opponents than either of those two.

Carlos Alberto is a significantly better right back than Gerets and Figueroa is a significantly better centre half than Thuram - Puskas couldn't be facing a more difficult task here, yet it's the opponents attackers who are all shackled.

In the context of an all-time draft they are leaders in their position. Most people's all-time XIs in a 3-5-2 would have Thuram at right centre-half and Facchetti as left wing-back. In a back four, they'd still be strong shouts for the two full-back spots and I think you had Thuram as the right-back in your own all-time XI. I'm not really sure what the merit is in playing down their strengths - be it "decent" or "very good" - when they're playing to those strengths in familiar roles. I'd also add that Thuram used to regularly face the Brazilian Ronaldo, and latterly would have came up against Ronaldinho from time to time. And I'm not really sure either of those players presented a lesser challenge to what Cristiano would come up with. Different players certainly but the point is Thuram's dynamism, strength, positioning, height and defensive robustness makes him as well suited as anyone to squaring up to Cristiano.

Why I believe Puskas can influence the game is because our primary playmaker in Maradona has a greater chance of creating opportunities for him than yours does in Platini. I fancy Breitner and Rijkaard to have a better chance of gaining control of the midfield than Redondo and Sammer, and so Maradona, and in turn Puskas if need be, has a more potent platform to decide the game. Not that it would be a whitewash by any manner of means in the middle of midfield, but the Rijkaard/Breitner partnership should gain the crucial edge in there.

 

[Theon]

In the context of an all-time draft they are leaders in their position. Most people's all-time XIs in a 3-5-2 would have Thuram at right centre-half and Facchetti as left wing-back. In a back four, they'd still be strong shouts for the two full-back spots and I think you had Thuram as the right-back in your own all-time XI.

I'm not really sure what the merit is in playing down their strengths - be it "decent" or "very good" - when they're playing to those strengths in familiar roles. I'd also add that Thuram used to regularly face the Brazilian Ronaldo, and latterly would have came up against Ronaldinho from time to time. And I'm not really sure either of those players presented a lesser challenge to what Cristiano would come up with.

I'm at work now so can't respond in full - but to be clear I haven't played down anyone. What I've said is that in the context of an all time draft against some of the most talented players to kick a football, that someone like Thuram won't be the game changer you're portraying him as.

You'll note that I haven't tried to sell Carlos Alberto - a better fullback than Thuram - as being able to completely shut out Puskas. It's only when youve started to imply that Messi and Ronaldo would be shut out by your fullbacks that I've brought up the fact that it would surely work both ways.

And if I'm being honest I do think that you're trying to downplay the strengths of Messi, Ronaldo, van Basten by suggesting that they can be limited in the manner described. In real life great attacking players aren't just shackled in these 1 vs 1 battles which always come up in these thread.

Also on Thuram I've been clear throughout these drafts that I would have Cafu as the best player from him, Thuram and Zanetti - which you well know. Thuram is obviously the best defensively which is why you can play him at centre back, but as an overall right back his standing in the game is surely behind the likes of Carlos Alberto and Djalma Santos.

Also - there was nothing between Cannavaro and Thuram when they played together at Juventus, so implying there was this gulf in quality is absolute nonsense. Cannavaro was never as good as Nesta, but neither was Thuram.

 

[Gio]

Yet as a right-sided centre-half in a back three, Thuram trumps them all. He is not playing as a centre half in a back four in which case I'd agree with your Nesta comment. He's also no mug going forward as his two tournament-defining goals against Croatia in the 1998 World Cup semi final showed. That was a tournament where he was France's best defender in a ruthlessly imposing back line and he shone again in winning Euro 2000 and in reaching the 2006 World Cup final. He also won the Bronze Ball and Guerin d'Oro.

As for Facchetti he remains one of the only 2 full backs to ever finish as runners up in the ballon d'Or and had the defensive system of the La Grande Inter team and the Italian side built around his talents - led them to two European Cups and two further European Cup finals, a 1968 Euros triumph and a world cup final. Game-changers? Nah, they didn't just change the course of games, but actually defined them.

 

[crappycraperson]

Thuram is a great for a match up against Ronaldo, especially as RCB with Scirea covering behind him

 

[Theon]

Yet as a right-sided centre-half in a back three, Thuram trumps them all. He is not playing as a centre half in a back four in which case I'd agree with your Nesta comment. He's also no mug going forward as his two tournament-defining goals against Croatia in the 1998 World Cup semi final showed. That was a tournament where he was France's best defender in a ruthlessly imposing back line and he shone again in winning Euro 2000 and in reaching the 2006 World Cup final. He also won the Bronze Ball and Guerin d'Oro.

As for Facchetti he remains one of the only 2 full backs to ever finish as runners up in the ballon d'Or and had the defensive system of the La Grande Inter team and the Italian side built around his talents - led them to two European Cups and two further European Cup finals, a 1968 Euros triumph and a world cup final. Game-changers? Nah, they didn't just change the course of games, but actually defined them.

Cannavaro won the Ballon d'Or but you've claimed that he's questionable in this company. So a Bronze ball doesn't mean anything in and of itself, judging by your own comments.

I'm not sure what you're saying about Thuram defining the course of games, but referencing his World Cup performances also surely doesn't hold up considering Cannavaro defined the course of the entire tournament for Italy in 2006, in a way that a defender hasn't done since Beckenbauer - yet you're questioning his stature in this game.

Just on that comparison there was nothing between Canavaro and Thuram for Juventus or Parma in which they often played in a back three. The way you're trying to portray this gulf in class is nonsense - Cannavaro out his depth with Stoichkov, but Thuram all over Ronaldo.

And I'd also take Nesta over Thuram as a centre back in a back three though that's irrelevant in this game. He's shown throughout his career that he can play that role, in Euro 2000 for instance and it didn't alter his game.

But yeah, I just disagree with you that any of the fullbacks are going to define this game. That's not me underating them just recognising the fact that there are more influential players on the pitch.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I've spent an unhealthy amount of time thinking about this and its still a bit head-melting but I can't quite get behind the idea of Sammer hitting his libero peak in his current midfield position. Of all the great liberos, Sammer's career trajectory would seem to most clearly support the idea that a libero's default position needs to be as part of the defensive line, generally facing the play, to get the best from them. With his starting position here, and the fact he'll only really receive heavyweight off the ball support from Redondo in midfield, its hard for me to understand his role as anything more than DM/defensive box to box midfielder.

That said its not necessarily game defining. Invictus/Theon do have signicantly more elite-level goalscorers in their team, however well-guarded they are on paper, and I've already said in a previous match thread how much I like that Platini/Messi attacking axis. Still can't fecking decide.

 

[diarm]

I absolutely love both teams. If anything I prefer the names on Joga/Gio's side but I love the balance of Team I/T. Because I can picture perfectly in my mind, exactly how each and every player on I/T's side will be employed and exactly what they will contribute, I'm going to opt for them to pinch a 5-4 win in the dying seconds.

What a fantastic match. Kudo's to all involved.

 

[Invictus]

Why is this guy getting zero love amid the Thuram/ Scirea lovefest?

'Don Elías' Figueroa

Figueroa and Beckenbauer have been the only center backs who are better than me in football history - Daniel Passarella

I have no hesitation in saying that Elías Figueroa is the best defender in football world - Carlos Alberto

If Figueroa played for a big country and had won a World Cup, he would be the best defender in football history - Pelé

I am the European Figueroa - Franz Beckenbauer

​

Record 3 times South American Footballer of the Year (remarkable feat for a central defender when Zico, Rivelino, Falcão, Cubillas, Kempes were active).

Voted 2 times Best Player in the World by FIFA as a central defender.

Voted into World Team of the Year 5 times.

Voted Best Foreign Player ever in the history of Brazilian football.

Thuram will stop Ronaldo, but Figueroa is ill-suited to handle Puskás?

 

[Invictus]

And again, very little emphasis is being laid on the lack of width in the opposition's attack. Facchetti can't cover Messi AND provide width against someone who's regarded as arguably the best rightback of all time:

Carlos Alberto

Quite possibly the greatest right back/ right wingback of all time - El Capitano do Tri was an exquisitely rounded defender with his ball control, dribbling, playmaking ability, beautiful coordination with the attackers, brilliant positioning, great tackling and reading of the game (Franz Beckenbauer even let him play as a sweeper when they were team-mates). His name is forever etched in the pantheon of legends as the captain of the most awe-inspiring national team ever, and for as for scoring this jaw-dropping goal in the final of the World Cup:

How good was he?

Starts in defense for the World Team of the 20th Century - with Franz Beckenbauer, Nilton Santos and Bobby Moore.
FIFA 100
Player of the Century - Best of the Best Top 50 http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/bestbest.html
Brazilian Hall of Fame
​

That element of the opposition having a narrow attack will allow both Carlos Alberto and Hans-Peter Briegel to tuck in to make the central core even stronger.

 

[Joga Bonito]

A great video on a trully phenomenal libero - Gaetano Scirea, one of the greatest centre backs and liberos to ever grace the game alongside Der Kaiser and Baresi.

He would be right at home sweeping in this cohesive defensive unit of ours and you can see him playing a pivotal role in nullifying the opposition's attack. Scirea was right at the heart of his sides, the great Juve and Italian vintages which swept just about everything before them, including the European Cup and the World Cup. He was the defensive backbone and the orchestrating maestro from the back capable of setting a tone for the rest of the team.

What I admired from him and would have loved to pinch from him was his command of he ball, his grace - he would often win the ball off opponents without even them noticing

One can hardly ask for a more robust shield or a more complete midfielder than Frank Rijkaard. His complete skill set, in blend with his ridiculous physicality paved way for an indomitable presence right at the heart of the engine room. Some fantastic footage in here that a #10 would be proud of.

 

[Invictus]

4 year attacking peaks in a major league:

Van Basten:

1988–89 33 19 4 3 9 9 1 1 47 32
1989–90 26 19 4 1 9 4 1 0 40 24
1990–91 31 11 1 0 2 0 1 0 35 11
1991–92 31 25 7 4 – – 38 29

Ronaldo:

2011–12[601] 38 46 5 3 — 10[d] 10 2 1 55 60
2012–13[602] 34 34 7 7 — 12[d] 12 2 2 55 55
2013–14[603] 30 31 6 3 — 11[d] 17 — 47 51
2014–15[604] 35 48 2 1 — 12[d] 10 5 2 54 61

Messi:

2011–12[108] 37 50 7 3 11 14 5[d] 6 60 73
2012–13[150] 32 46 5 4 11 8 2[c] 2 50 60
2013–14[150] 31 28 6 5 7 8 2[c] 0 46 41
2014–15[175] 38 43 6 5 13 10 — 57 58

Platini:

1982–83 Juventus Serie A 30 16 9 7 9 5 48 28
1983–84 28 20 7 3 8 2 43 25
1984–85 30 18 9 4 9 7 48 29
1985–86 30 12 6 1 6 3 42 16

*********************

Stoichkov:

1990–91 FC Barcelona La Liga 24 14 6 2 - 8 5 38 21
1991–92 32 17 2 1 - 9 4 43 22
1992–93 33 20 6 2 - 6 2 45 24
1993–94 34 16 6 1 - 8 7 48 24

Puskás:

1959–60 24 25 5 10 7 12 36 47
1960–61 28 28 9 14 2 0 39 42
1961–62 23 20 8 13 9 7 40 40
1962–63 30 26 7 5 2 0 39 31

Maradona:

1986–87 29 10 10 7 2 0 – 41 17
1987–88 28 15 9 6 2 0 – 39 21
1988–89 26 9 12 7 12 3 – 50 19
1989–90 28 16 3 2 5 0 – 36 18

Also, much is being made of Briegel, but conversely - Stoichkov is the worst attacker on the pitch, and Gerets is the worst fullback/ wiingback on the pitch.

 

[Invictus]

Then there's this guy to help control the game from deeper areas to further boost the incredible attack:


Spraying clever balls out wide to:


And:

 

[Invictus]

And the thing about a great attacking unit is - no matter how good the defense, these players will find a way to poke holes in it more often that not. It only takes a bit of magic to throw even the most organized defense off balance.

And no matter how tightly the wider attacker are marked, the fact remains that since that area of the pitch is more expansive - one subtle movement can set off a chain reaction:

Like Messi teeing Cristiano up:

On Cristiano

feeding this dude:

 

[Joga Bonito]

I've spent an unhealthy amount of time thinking about this and its still a bit head-melting but I can't quite get behind the idea of Sammer hitting his libero peak in his current midfield position. Of all the great liberos, Sammer's career trajectory would seem to most clearly support the idea that a libero's default position needs to be as part of the defensive line, generally facing the play, to get the best from them. With his starting position here, and the fact he'll only really receive heavyweight off the ball support from Redondo in midfield, its hard for me to understand his role as anything more than DM/defensive box to box midfielder.

That said its not necessarily game defining.

That's spot on I'd say apart from the magnitude of the problem that the opposition has on their hands with Sammer in an ill suited role and that too with the wrong type of a supporting midfield. Given that, that duo are primarily tasked with dealing with the best player on the pitch and Breitner and Rijkaard, I'd say it's quite a significant factor in this match up myself.

 

[harms]

Akash

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Have changed my vote over to Invictus/Theon. I'm going for a one goal margin, and after further deliberation, I think if this game is won on a one goal margin, it will be by Invictus/Theon.

 

[Invictus]

best player on the pitch

Debatable at best.

Messi is the best player ever. And this is said by someone who has seen Maradona and Pelé play - Adriano Galliani.

Diego (Maradona) has filled us with emotions. But between the cracks, without doubt, Messi is better than Maradona - Diego Simeone.

I saw Maradona play extraordinary matches. I followed his career live, for me Messi is the best of Diego, every single day - Juan Pablo Varsky.

Once he's on the run, Messi is unstoppable. He's the only player who can change direction at such a pace - Wenger.

I like Messi a lot, he’s a great player. Technically, we’re practically at the same level - Pelé.

Diego played with pauses and acceleration. Messi's was down to breakneck speed and acceleration - Jorge Valdano.

For me, Messi is the best player in history - Ivan Helguera.

Someday I will tell my grandchildren that I coached Leo Messi. I have never seen a player like him - Josep Guardiola.

I was a big fan of Maradona growing up and of the current crop Ronaldo is very good but Messi is the best I’ve ever seen. I don’t dish out praise lightly but Messi deserves it. I look for weaknesses in his game and I can’t find them - Roy Keane.

In my entire life I have never seen a player of such quality and personality at such a young age, particularly wearing the heavy shirt of one of the world’s great clubs - Fabio Capello.

The best? - Marcelo Lippi.

Lionel Messi is the best player of all times - Carlos Bianchi.

Fella’s a genius! Best ever by a distance in my life time! Never really saw Pelé. Wait till he grows up! Souness, Gullit, Venables and now Rooney agree Messi is the best they have seen. He plays a game to which we are not familiar - Gary Linekar.

Messi is, together with Pelé, the best that ever lived. Breaking Muller’s record was a matter of time - Ottmar Hitzfeld.

Football has changed in the last half decade.

 

[Invictus]

Platini in his elements against a defensive formation:


Only here, he can feed forwards who scored 1400 goals between them.

 

[Invictus]

Ode to Michel ft. antohan:

Michel Platini

One thing that's remarkable about GOAT debates, winning a World Cup, not needing to win a World Cup, etc etc - is that in those discussions, Platini inevitably comes to mind. I'm not sure if everyone on here is too young, or his French/UEFA personna has distorted people's memories, so here we go:

Platini had an exceptional career. Superb for St. Etienne, he was already picking up the French Footballer of the Year regularly in the second half of the 70s while occasionally making the top three for the Ballon d'Or (3rd in 1977 and 3rd in 1980).

Then he moved to Juventus and was the architect for the most dominant side in their history. Up until Messi, he was the only one to have picked the Ballon d'Or three seasons in a row and in all three of them he was the top scorer in the most miserly league anyone has witnessed. A midfielder, not a false 9 with brilliant service, he delivered the service AND the goals. Stunning!

​

Then he did it for yet another side, France with him spearheading the Carré Magique, in one of the Top 3 most outstanding individual tournament performances you will ever witness:

​

People from a certain generation remember Platini being what Messi is now (the Frenchman was Ballon D'Or Top 3 and eyewatering 5 times in 9 seasons), or Maradona was in the late 1980s - but unfortunately, Platini hadn't won a World Cup. You could argue yourself silly banging on about Schumacher's decapitation of Battiston having a say in that, 1984 being the revenge, and 1986 bound to be the grand finale.

He arrived in Mexico somewhat over the hill. Much like Zidane in 2006, but carrying an injury, a bit like Maradona going into Italy 1990. I vividly remember my family being shocked as I celebrated Brazil crashing out. How come I'd rather France went through?, they asked. "Platini deserves to win a World Cup, it would be a travesty if he didn't", was my answer.

About 24 hours later, Maradona changed some the perception. He had always been "the next big thing", but Platini was firmly ahead and was The Big Thing until that quarter-final against England.

And, while Maradona deserves all the plaudits he gets, the criminal outcome of it all was not how England crashed out to the Hand of God, but how suddenly Platini was shaken from his pedestal. Without a shadow of a doubt the best player so far in a decade plagued with outstanding No. 10s.

Makes you wonder, though he did find some justice with his inclusion in the Team of the 20th Century, as well as the World Cup Dream Team to go beyond the Ballon D'Ors:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Team_of_the_20th_Century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_Dream_Team

That's rarefied company - one of only 4 players to feature on both - apart from Pelé, Maradona, Beckenbauer and Yashin.

Ballon D'Or: 1983, 1984, 1985
Highest ever Scorer in a European Championship: 1984
World Cup All-Star Team: 1982, 1986.
European Cup Top Scorer: 1985
World Cup: 1982 (4th), 1986 (3rd)
European Championship: 1984
English Football Hall of Fame - voted All-Time Greatest European Footballer
Serie A Capocannoniere (Top Scorer) - 1983, 1984, 1985
340+ Career goals.​

 

[Invictus]

This is going to be a free scoring game, no doubt about it. Which will work in our favor, because not only are Messi and Ronaldo phenomenal goalscorers, we have Marco van Basten up top who was the prototypical #9. The only opposition attacker in that territory in terms of clinical function is Puskás. Ronaldo might be facing Thuram, but Puskás is up against Figueroa.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Anyway a more in depth look at the platform provided to the arguably the greatest ever.

Maradona thrived playing in a 3-5-2 as the prime orchestrator and there is a reason why we've tried our best to keep it to a forward trio, and he truly blossomed with the extra responsibility placed on him and absolutely lapped up the extra tactical freedom and space afforded to him in the 3-5-2 - with 2 other complete and mobile forwards (Valdano & Burruchaga/ Careca & Giordano/ Carrasco at Barca) etc. In fact for Argentina 1986, he was actually played with a defensive sweeper in Brown and a defensive midfielder in Batista

yet he managed to deliver the world the greatest peak football has ever seen. In fact even if you'd look at some of the more balanced set-ups that Maradona's managed to feature in some of these older fantasy draft games

Spoiler: Maradona set-ups

Stobzilla's recent draft winning formation

MDFC in his game against me in an All-Time No Limits draft

Annah in one of the earlier drafts where he made the final which was abandoned

anto's proposed formation for the WC all-time draft final

One aspect pops up straight away, Maradona is mostly utilised in formations with 2 mobile forwards or heck just one in the latter two cases. Simply because it afforded Maradona the most freedom and these were exactly the type of set-ups that he used to excel in - in reality. A ridiculously solid base, a workaholic midfield and a complementary forward line to strut his stuff.

Anyway, going back to the the support he has in this match. We've got one of the greatest goalscoring forwards of all time in Puskas (4th in the history of the game according to rsssf) and Stoichkov, who is a top notch goalscoring wing-forward, dovetailing beautifully with Maradona. Let's not forget how Maradona was a notable goalscoring threat in his own right, almost maintaining a 1 in 2 record for Napoli in the Serie A and in addition to Breitner who was a brilliant goalscoring B2B midfielder who also had a near 1 in 2 record for Bayern at his peak.

All in all a complementary team with a fantastic base for the greatest ever and a great defense.

 

[Invictus]

For all the talk of Maradona, Platini's peak performance on the international level wasn't far off:


Stands as a record for the European Championship to this day. Sure, the positional semantics are a bit varied, but he has far greater player call upon in attack - which will boost his playmaking profile even further - because the forward could finish at a devastating pace - each of them scored at a rate of 1 goal per game at their peak.

Then there's Messi, who's on exactly the same plane as Maradona.

 

[The Stain]

Caught up with 30 mins to go!

 

[Invictus]

And sometimes, having a wonky setup isn't the be all and end all. This is the perfect example for it:

And we'd liken the ideology of our team to that United vintage, based upon an ethos to outscore the opposition - since that is our forte. Might be frantic, a bit messy at times - but the attack is too good to contain to a respectable scoreline.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Caught up with 30 mins to go!

Taken the lead due to those 2 3 goal votes.

 

[The Stain]

Taken the lead due to those 2 3 goal votes.

Changed mine. No way either side wins by 3.