British + Irish Draft (Skizzo/Pat vs Chester) Group C

Who would win assuming all players are at their peak?


  • Total voters
    15
  • Poll closed .

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,187
Location
Interweb
----------------------------Team Skizzo/Pat--------------------------------------------vs--------------------------------------Team Chesterlestreet


Skizzo/Pat's tactics -
We’ve drafted exclusively from players who peaked in the post-1955 period following the advent of the UEFA club competitions. As a result we’ve assembled a squad with cast-iron credentials and pedigree at an international level. Of our starting XI, we boast no less than 7 European Cup/CL winners. 10 of our squad have won a European club trophy, and of the others, John Charles is a multiple-time Scudetto winner and Bobby Moore a World Cup-winning captain. We change our line up from a 4-4-2 to a lopsided 4-2-3-1, with the unlucky Ian Wright making way for Lampard. Lampard provides the extra man in midfield whilst still offering a prolific goal threat, and Bobby Lennox retains the exceptional pace to stretch Chester’s defence. Lennox will be slightly more advanced, ready to feed off Charles’ knockdowns and stretching Chester’s defence. Beckham will do as Beckham did, dropping deeper or infield to make Utd’s 4-4-2 work against elite opposition, and finding Charles with arguably the most consistent source of quality crosses in history.

Defence:

We field one of the all-time great British goalkeepers in Neville Southall. In front of him, Moore and Lawrenson form arguably the best centre-back pairing in the draft. Similar in dynamic to the great Hansen/Lawrenson partnership, Moore commands the defence with his peerless reading of the game, impeccable timing in the tackle and great distribution. Lawrenson complements him with his superb recovery pace and strength in the air. Flanking them are two of Utd’s greatest ever full backs.

Midfield:

The lynchpin of our midfield is “the beating heart of the Lisbon Lions” Bobby Murdoch, one of the very best midfielders in the draft. A combative ball-winner, a wonderful passer and a true leader, he is partnered in central midfield by the fiercely competitive Paul Ince. On the flanks, one of the most unerringly brilliant crossers of the ball ever in David Beckham, and the scintillatingly fast Bobby Lennox, who was putting up almost Ronaldo-esque goalscoring numbers from the wing nearly 40 years before we’d ever heard of Ronaldo. Rounding out the midfield is Frank Lampard, with his excellent work-rate, underrated eye for a pass and indisputably brilliant eye for goal. If he thrived off Drogba’s knockdowns, he’ll be in heaven feeding off of John Charles.

Attack:

The legendary John Charles is arguably the best centre forward in the draft, with a brilliant goalscoring record, near-unstoppable ability in the air, and the rare distinction of being well-rounded enough to be world-class both as an attacker and a defender.

How The Game Will Be Won:

John Charles will be the match winner here. Billy Wright was a fine footballer and by all accounts had a prodigious leap, but an aerial duel between a 5’ 8” centre back and Charles is only going to end one way. Woodburn, from what we can gather, was a good but unexceptional centre back who isn’t going to thwart Charles either, and his notorious temper will be tested against the physically incredible Charles. With Beckham’s delivery, he’ll be in his element, both scoring himself and assisting the incredible threat from Lennox and Lampard, arguably the best goalscorers from their respective positions in the entire draft.

Where Chester’s team excels is in midfield. Edwards and Crerand are an exceptional partnership. Even as a 21 year old, we’re willing to accept Edwards’ brilliance, but Ince has the athleticism, willpower and technique to at least be competitive against any midfielder in the draft. Beside him, Murdoch is simply exceptional. “The beating heart of the Lisbon Lions”, he’s both a playmaker and a warrior, with a proven ability to exert his influence against teams of the calibre of 1967 Inter Milan. Supporting them are Beckham and Lampard, with their freakish stamina and proven ability in similar systems. It’s a serious leap of faith to assume that the likes of the Jacksons, Haynes and Shackleton will be equally capable of supporting their midfield off the ball.

Chester is also extremely strong in attack and we can’t hope to stifle that completely, but we have an all-time great goalkeeper in Southall, a defence comprised of 3 European Cup winners and a World Cup winning captain, and possibly the greatest and most complementary centre back pairing in the draft.

Chester has assembled a great team, but ultimately our team has proven their ability on the higher stage. No-one knows whether the likes of Woodburn, Jackson x 2 and Bastin could have adapted to the modern game or demonstrated their talents at a world class level. There’s no such question marks about our lads, who have 8 European Cups, a World Cup, 3 Scudettos, and 3 European Cup Winners Cup medals to their name.
Chester's tactics -

What I'm going for here is a variation on the 4-2-4, the formation most commonly associated with the great Brazil side of '58. There are distinct differences, however, between my take on this classic formation and the Brazilian model. Matt Busby favoured the 4-2-4 too – and if anything my variation resembles his Manchester United more than Brazil, whilst not using either side as a blueprint. It's a specialized 4-2-4 with certain key elements.

Perhaps the most important of these is the role of Johnny Haynes. As the arrow (who doesn't love a good arrow?) indicates, Haynes will drop deep here – and he will do so regularly. This will allow him to use his passing range to the fullest: In what we may call the second striker position which is his default one (and which reminds us of his younger, inside forward incarnation), Haynes' main function will be that of hitting the ball short, at Dean in the middle – but not least at the ghost-into-the-box wingers, both of whom excel at precisely this sort of game: Bastin and Jackson are high scoring wingers who like nothing better than to get on the end of a through ball from a withdrawn forward: What you get here – with due respect to the great man – is an upgrade on the famous James-to-Bastin-and-into-the-net formula which was so effective for Arsenal; an upgrade I say, because Johnny Haynes is an even more clinical passer than Alex James.

Haynes' other function, however, is as stated above to drop deep, which is perfectly natural for him: He drops down further into the hole, so to speak, taking up positions from where he can ping long balls out to the wingers – who will then, simply, seek to cross: The opposite winger drifts (or rather runs, hopefully – no sense in jogging about sluggishly) into the box to join the man many consider the most dangerous header of the ball in the history of the game. Ideally, Edwards has made one of his runs at the same time, while Haynes drifts (runs!) back into his default space and beyond, leaving the opponent to deal with four men in the box as Bastin or Jackson takes aim from out wide. Well worth to note here that Dean isn't just a direct threat in the air, but an indirect one too, as it were: Heading the ball down for Jackson or Bastin (or anyone else who has managed to get into the box) is a very plausible alternative, should he be unable to finish directly.

Should be a goal or two in there somewhere.

Addendum on Dean: While being something of an ultimate goal getter, Dean has qualities which are seldom highlighted but nevertheless characteristic of his game: He was very good at setting up his team mates with short, precise passes – which will give Bastin and Jackson an alternative to the Haynes through ball: They can play their ghost-into-the-box game with both Haynes and Dean being second-to-last on the ball. This obviously isn't Dean's main feature as a player – he is there to finish, first and foremost – but it's a quality of his which will come in handy on top of his finishing.

Roles of central midfielders: Edwards plays a box-to-box role, Crerand holds. The latter's role is very similar to the one he often played for Busby: Fairly conservative as such. Crerand, however, is an excellent passer, which comes in handy when building up attacks. Edwards' role is much freer – he operates box to box, using both his incredible physical presence and his brilliant on-the-ball skills as required, where required.

Defence: Marshaled by Billy Wright, they defend. That is their main function here. The attacking part is well taken care of by others. Two things to note, however: Byrne is more than capable of venturing forward a bit, should the occasion arise. And Woodburn likes to carry the ball out of defense, as the build-up begins: This is an important feature of his game – so I won't deny him the chance to showcase it here. He's a ball playing sort of defender, much before his time in that regard, which makes him an ideal foil for Wright. Pat Rice is a no frills, ultra dependable fullback. He will go quietly about his business here, staying tight on whoever he's marking, focusing on the defensive side of things.


In short:

It's an offensive approach, decidedly so. I plan on outscoring the other guy and I'm not overly concerned should he manage to grab a goal. Grinding out 1-0 wins is clearly a waste of my players' talents anyway. Still, for those who immediately think a 4-2-4 formation is too ultra offensive to stand a realistic chance, I point again – as I did to begin with – to Haynes' role. When he drops, as he will all the time, the nominal formation becomes either a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 of sorts. Haynes isn't a striker but a playmaker, so keep that in mind.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,338
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
So Chester's been giving it big licks about how busy he is in the run-up to Christmas, yet here he is with the player pen pics and everything the sly old fox.
 

Annahnomoss

Full Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
10,101
So Chester's been giving it big licks about how busy he is in the run-up to Christmas, yet here he is with the player pen pics and everything the sly old fox.
Looks like a good montage from a football show on TV or something about the classic players. Now we know what hes been so busy with at least, making his damn write up.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,432
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
I like Skizzo team better, though I dislike Lampard in that role. I think he will have better control over the midfield.

Ince would be a nuisance to Haynes through and I'm not sure how much tracking back his wingers would do to prevent Beckham from pinging crosses all match long.

Don't see much difference in defensive lines either way!

I'm leaning towards Skizzo, but will wait for either managers to comment before voting.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,338
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
I think Chester has a quality advantage in the central midfield area, but it's a close one alright.
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,808
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I like Skizzo team better, though I dislike Lampard in that role. I think he will have better control over the midfield.

Ince would be a nuisance to Haynes through and I'm not sure how much tracking back his wingers would do to prevent Beckham from pinging crosses all match long.

Don't see much difference in defensive lines either way!

I'm leaning towards Skizzo, but will wait for either managers to comment before voting.
Why do you dislike Lampard in that role mate? I think its very similar to his role in the Chelsea set-up that he peaked in. In both cases he plays ahead of two powerful midfielders, and behind a strong centre forward with great hold-up play.
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,808
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I think Chester has a quality advantage in the central midfield area, but it's a close one alright.
Crerand and Edwards is a great partnership without doubt, but I'm confident that Murdoch can compete on pretty even terms with any midfielder in the draft. The workrate and stamina of Lampard and Beckham will be invaluable for us too in terms of competing in midfield. A nice little video of Murdoch for those who aren't familiar with him, showcasing his excellent shooting off either foot:


We have a tremendous threat from distance with Beckham, Murdoch and Lampard, with Ince also capable of the odd thunderbolt from long-range.
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,808
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Dean vs Southall. Evertons 2 greatest players.

I am so torn right now.
I've got to admit I feared the worst when I saw you'd posted :lol:. I know how much you love Dean.

As this has gone so quiet, a video of Bobby Lennox, one of the best goal-scoring wingers in the draft. Rice will have his work cut out trying to keep him quiet. We were delighted to reunite him and Murdoch.

 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
As for Woodburn (who may be fairly obscure to many), he is famous - or rather infamous - as the last player to receive a life ban from football on the British isles. You'll find him on lists of famous thugs and hatchet men, alongside the likes of Vinnie Jones, but his thuggery is much more complex than it seems at first glance.

He seemed to develop a more and more uncontrollable temper - on the pitch, that is - as he get older, which is strange in itself. He wasn't known as a hatchet man at all in his younger playing days: What characterized him as a footballer was, quite to the contrary, a bit of refinement and a penchant for using the ball constructively which was uncommon for a defender.

Mainly on the infamous life ban:

http://backpagefootball.com/william-‘willie’-woodburn-–-sine-die/13683/
 

Skizzo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
12,537
Location
West Coast is the Best Coast
As for Woodburn (who may be fairly obscure to many), he is famous - or rather infamous - as the last player to receive a life ban from football on the British isles. You'll find him on lists of famous thugs and hatchet men, alongside the likes of Vinnie Jones, but his thuggery is much more complex than it seems at first glance.

He seemed to develop a more and more uncontrollable temper - on the pitch, that is - as he get older, which is strange in itself. He wasn't known as a hatchet man at all in his younger playing days: What characterized him as a footballer was, quite to the contrary, a bit of refinement and a penchant for using the ball constructively which was uncommon for a defender.

Mainly on the infamous life ban:

http://backpagefootball.com/william-‘willie’-woodburn-–-sine-die/13683/
Looks like you already set him off on Ince.

 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,808
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
As this has gone so quiet, a video of Bobby Lennox, one of the best goal-scoring wingers in the draft. Rice will have his work cut out trying to keep him quiet. We were delighted to reunite him and Murdoch.
Aye, no doubt. But then the same could be said about Neville versus Bastin - or Dunne versus Jackson. There's hardly a team in this draft that doesn't sport a winger (or two) who won't cause considerable trouble for his man.

The way I see it my edge here is two-fold:

I have TWO goal scoring wingers versus one. And I have Haynes - who is, I dare say, the best passer and playmaker on the pitch, and a very mobile/adaptable one at that: He can find players in dangerous areas both from outside the box (the old through ball to Bastin/Jackson - with Moore being occupied with Dean at all times, presumably - scheme) and from deep, pinging long balls down the wings (and down the middle, directly at Dean, for him to work with using his...head).
 

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,974
Gone for Chester. His front 4 will score despite Pat's quality defence. Plus Crerand and Edwards is an awesome engine room. I think Lampard doesn't fit into Pat/Skizz's system. If they'd had a proper 10 or second striker I'd have bought it, but with Beckham on the right it looks disjointed.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,432
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
Why do you dislike Lampard in that role mate? I think its very similar to his role in the Chelsea set-up that he peaked in. In both cases he plays ahead of two powerful midfielders, and behind a strong centre forward with great hold-up play.
Not saying he is a liability by any means. Maybe I remember incorrectly, but when he played there, he had Drogba and Anelka in front. With one striker upfront, he usually plays in a 4-5-1 middle trio bombing into the box, not as a AM /SS. In short I think he is better with two striker formations.

He would definitely contribute himself, but that role he is in here would make most plays go through him. Keeps the attack ticking. Not how I think he was.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,338
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Crerand and Edwards is a great partnership without doubt, but I'm confident that Murdoch can compete on pretty even terms with any midfielder in the draft. The workrate and stamina of Lampard and Beckham will be invaluable for us too in terms of competing in midfield. A nice little video of Murdoch for those who aren't familiar with him, showcasing his excellent shooting off either foot:


We have a tremendous threat from distance with Beckham, Murdoch and Lampard, with Ince also capable of the odd thunderbolt from long-range.
Murdoch was a quality player. After all he was the foremost midfielder in one of the best clubs sides that England or Scotland has produced. I suppose I was thinking there's a quality gap between Haynes and Lampard, Edwards and Ince, with Crerand and Murdoch being closer (although I'd take Murdoch there).
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
Murdoch was a quality player. After all he was the foremost midfielder in one of the best clubs sides that England or Scotland has produced. I suppose I was thinking there's a quality gap between Haynes and Lampard, Edwards and Ince, with Crerand and Murdoch being closer (although I'd take Murdoch there).
They're almost penchant like in many ways if we're looking at their exploits in '67 and '68 respectively.

Both excellent passers, Crerand more conservative and less creative than Murdoch. The former more of a holder than the latter - so in that sense I wouldn't take Murdoch in my particular set-up. Generally, though, I think you can certainly make a case for Murdoch being half a notch above - though there isn't much between them, I reckon.
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,808
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Not saying he is a liability by any means. Maybe I remember incorrectly, but when he played there, he had Drogba and Anelka in front. With one striker upfront, he usually plays in a 4-5-1 middle trio bombing into the box, not as a AM /SS. In short I think he is better with two striker formations.

He would definitely contribute himself, but that role he is in here would make most plays go through him. Keeps the attack ticking. Not how I think he was.
I was thinking of the 2004-2006 era Chelsea team, which was the best team he played in.



Not that our setup is identical but its a reasonable approximation in terms of Lampard's role. I wouldn't say most plays will go through him. Murdoch is very much the main man in our midfield, and he'll be spreading it wide to the wingers as well as going through the centre. I hope Lampard will see plenty of the ball though, and he's well capable of using it productively.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,338
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
I reckon Lampard's fine there. Perhaps in practice he'd be a bit deeper, almost as in 4-2-1-3 rather than a 4-2-3-1. But whatever the formation is role would be getting on the end of service that would largely originate from the flanks through Beckham and Jones.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
Right, I have to call it a night - early start tomorrow again.

Final thoughts:

These sides are fairly equal, I reckon - and fairly similar too. For me this is pretty simple: This clearly ain't a question of outfoxing the opponent by some tactical masterstroke. It's a question of who poses the greatest threat in terms of outscoring the opponent. And I think that's what my boys would do here. I have three excellent finishers (who can finish in all sorts of ways) and a master playmaker to serve them (Pat and Skizzo don't have that - they have other things, but they don't have that). That's the basics here - it's what will decide this match.
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,808
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Murdoch was a quality player. After all he was the foremost midfielder in one of the best clubs sides that England or Scotland has produced. I suppose I was thinking there's a quality gap between Haynes and Lampard, Edwards and Ince, with Crerand and Murdoch being closer (although I'd take Murdoch there).
Aye, its hard to argue much with that. Edwards certainly has the edge over Ince, although Lampard vs Haynes is considerably more tricky imo. Haynes is doubtless the more elegant and creative playmaker, but in terms of sheer effectiveness Lampard has few peers. Haynes' goalscoring record dropped off quite dropped off quite dramatically after Fulham got promoted into the First Division, and it would be highly charitable not to attribute much of that to the sterner opposition he faced thereafter. Lampard's prodigious goalscoring hardly needs to be elaborated on, and I'm confident his stamina and workrate will alow him to provide better support to his midfield defensively than Haynes offers.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
Aye, its hard to argue much with that. Edwards certainly has the edge over Ince, although Lampard vs Haynes is considerably more tricky imo. Haynes is doubtless the more elegant and creative playmaker, but in terms of sheer effectiveness Lampard has few peers. Haynes' goalscoring record dropped off quite dropped off quite dramatically after Fulham got promoted into the First Division, and it would be highly charitable not to attribute much of that to the sterner opposition he faced thereafter. Lampard's prodigious goalscoring hardly needs to be elaborated on, and I'm confident his stamina and workrate will alow him to provide better support to his midfield defensively than Haynes offers.
I'm not depending on him as a finisher, so the relevance isn't all that great. But as a general point Haynes became more and more of a playmaker (more and more withdrawn too, compared to his younger role as an inside forward) as he grew older. He didn't deteriorate as a finisher as much as he evolved into a different kind of player. Not dissimilar to Scholes' development as a player, really - going from being a more direct threat up front to becoming a pure playmaker.

But, again, it's a bit of a moot point - whatever Haynes can chip in with here in terms of finishing will be a bonus for me, I don't rely on that aspect of his game at all.
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,808
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Aye, no doubt. But then the same could be said about Neville versus Bastin - or Dunne versus Jackson. There's hardly a team in this draft that doesn't sport a winger (or two) who won't cause considerable trouble for his man.

The way I see it my edge here is two-fold:

I have TWO goal scoring wingers versus one. And I have Haynes - who is, I dare say, the best passer and playmaker on the pitch, and a very mobile/adaptable one at that: He can find players in dangerous areas both from outside the box (the old through ball to Bastin/Jackson - with Moore being occupied with Dean at all times, presumably - scheme) and from deep, pinging long balls down the wings (and down the middle, directly at Dean, for him to work with using his...head).
Aye, I can't disagree there. I'm confident in Dunne in particular though. He was a particularly fast full back and a very good tackler. I've been watching the 1968 European Cup final (not finished yet) and Benfica haven't produced a thing down his flank yet. He even kept pace with Eusebio quite comfortably on one occasion when Eusebio tried breaking into their right side channel.
 

Lynk

Obsessed with discrediting Danny Welbeck
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
14,976
Surprised this one is so close. Chester midfield and his striker are superior, only part Skizzo/Mustard is superior in is in defense.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
Ince would be a nuisance to Haynes through and I'm not sure how much tracking back his wingers would do to prevent Beckham from pinging crosses all match long.
Don't think Ince would be more of a nuisance than Haynes can handle, especially since the latter is anything but stationary. Ince would have to follow him around in something like a man marking role if he were to truly upset him - and I wouldn't recommend that, nor do I think Ince would be ideally suited for that task.

As for Beckham - no, I certainly can't trust Bastin to do much defensive work here, that's not what he's there for. I will have to rely on Byrne (who was a tenacious-as-hell player with excellent positioning) to get in his way as much as possible. Plus, I have Edwards there, who'll be doing a defensive job half the time in accordance with his job description. So Beckham won't be left alone here. His crosses will be aimed at Charles, mainly, and I'll have Wright on him. The latter was an aerial specialist whose prodigious leap was one of his most characteristic aspects - he was a Cannavaro style defender in that regard, so Charles will have his work cut out for him.

Completely neutralizing any part of the opponent's attack isn't my game here anyway. I don't have to keep a clean sheet - that's part and parcel of my plan. Limiting Beckham's influence is enough - I can afford to have him ping the odd cross.
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,808
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Right, I have to call it a night - early start tomorrow again.

Final thoughts:

These sides are fairly equal, I reckon - and fairly similar too. For me this is pretty simple: This clearly ain't a question of outfoxing the opponent by some tactical masterstroke. It's a question of who poses the greatest threat in terms of outscoring the opponent. And I think that's what my boys would do here. I have three excellent finishers (who can finish in all sorts of ways) and a master playmaker to serve them (Pat and Skizzo don't have that - they have other things, but they don't have that). That's the basics here - it's what will decide this match.
Aye, the teams are similar in both style and quality. Predictably enough, I disagree on some of the other points.

- We have 3 prolific goalscorers too in Charles, Lennox and Lampard, and I'd argue we have the greater goal threat from our supporting cast. Beckham is well capable of scoring a match winner from a dead ball or open play (Haynes has a similarly respectable goalscoring record in fairness), and Murdoch and Ince were a fair bit more prolific than Edwards and Crerand respectively.

- We don't have a playmaker in that No. 10 position, granted, but I'm more than confident in Murdoch's abilities to orchestrate our play from midfield. A quote from one of my favourite sportswriters, Hugh McIlvanney:

Of all the formidable components of his game, however, the most telling, and certainly the one Stein cherished above all others, was his capacity to deliver the ball over long or short distances, with speed and accuracy and unfailing economy, into the places where it could do maximum damage to the opposition. It is hard to think of a midfielder who identified the points of vulnerability more perceptively or exploited them more ruthlessly than he did. In football terms, he was the delivery-man from heaven.
His proven partnership with Lennox will bring us alot of joy too.
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,808
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Don't think Ince would be more of a nuisance than Haynes can handle, especially since the latter is anything but stationary. Ince would have to follow him around in something like a man marking role if he were to truly upset him - and I wouldn't recommend that, nor do I think Ince would be ideally suited for that task.

As for Beckham - no, I certainly can't trust Bastin to do much defensive work here, that's not what he's there for. I will have to rely on Byrne (who was a tenacious-as-hell player with excellent positioning) to get in his way as much as possible. Plus, I have Edwards there, who'll be doing a defensive job half the time in accordance with his job description. So Beckham won't be left alone here. His crosses will be aimed at Charles, mainly, and I'll have Wright on him. The latter was an aerial specialist whose prodigious leap was one of his most characteristic aspects - he was a Cannavaro style defender in that regard, so Charles will have his work cut out for him.

Completely neutralizing any part of the opponent's attack isn't my game here anyway. I don't have to keep a clean sheet - that's part and parcel of my plan. Limiting Beckham's influence is enough - I can afford to have him ping the odd cross.
True on Ince as a man marker on Haynes - we won't be using him like that. Ince is good enough that you won't be able to just play right through him, but I'm not going to pretend he's going to shut Haynes out of the game or anything.

I mentioned Wright's famous leap in our initial write up, but I stand by my view that Charles will get the better of your centre backs in the air. The 6 inches in height that Wright gives up to him is just too great a disavantage against one of the most dangerous headers of a ball ever, especially when its Beckham sending in the crosses. That remains the clearest route to goal in this game, with Charles either scoring directly or providing the knockdowns for Lampard and Lennox to capitalise on.

At the other end, I fancy our superior pair of centre backs to have more success at stifling your considerable threat. Moore and Lawrenson is simply a brilliant partnership, and both are proven at an extremely high level.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
I mentioned Wright's famous leap in our initial write up, but I stand by my view that Charles will get the better of your centre backs in the air. The 6 inches in height that Wright gives up to him is just too great a disavantage against one of the most dangerous headers of a ball ever, especially when its Beckham sending in the crosses. That remains the clearest route to goal in this game, with Charles either scoring directly or providing the knockdowns for Lampard and Lennox to capitalise on.
Yep - for you, that is. For me some Haynes to Jackson/Bastin (via Dean, for that matter) combination or other is the most likely route. The cross-to-monstrous-header route is an alternative, not the main threat.

What you say about Charles applies equally well to Dean - with the latter being arguably an even greater aerial threat. But Dean's ability to produce something from crosses is not my main weapon.

In my opinion you can't rely on Charles winning this match for you - you can rely on him grabbing a goal sooner or later, arguably, but that won't be enough.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
BTW, it's not really a draw - Lynk's vote is much appreciated, of course, but it doesn't count, so the the true score is 6-5 advantage Pat/Skizz.
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,808
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Yep - for you, that is. For me some Haynes to Jackson/Bastin (via Dean, for that matter) combination or other is the most likely route. The cross-to-monstrous-header route is an alternative, not the main threat.

What you say about Charles applies equally well to Dean - with the latter being arguably an even greater aerial threat. But Dean's ability to produce something from crosses is not my main weapon.

In my opinion you can't rely on Charles winning this match for you - you can rely on him grabbing a goal sooner or later, arguably, but that won't be enough.
For all that I think Beckham crossing to Charles is our likeliest route to goal, I do need to emphasise its not our only one. Murdoch threading passes through to Lennox is an extremely potent threat too, a proven partnership that helped propel Celtic all the way to winning the European Cup vs a formidable Inter Milan team. That level of demonstrable real world success counts for alot imo.

We also have one of the deadliest free kick takers in the draft, and several players with a penchant for scoring from distance in Beckham, Lampard and Murdoch.

That's a very credible set of goalscoring possibilities. Factor in our superior set of centre backs, and a team with significantly less passengers defensively, and I beleive we'll outscore you.