Build a team where our crazy formation works

[Paul778]

Ok. So we've struggled this season for lots of reasons, including injuries and levels of work on the pitch. A lot of people are holding out to see if ETH can get the team playing better now with Casemiro and his preferred defence returning.

However one thing continues to be a black mark against ETH is inability to get the team playing to his vision, with this persistence of the one 'holding' midfielder and the high press leaving us wide open in transition.

So the question i am asking in this thread...

Can you make a first 11 made up of any player currently in any of the teams in the EPL where this formation will work successfully and be dominant week-in week-out against all EPL opposition?

 

[The Mitcher]

You can't.

 

[horsechoker]

You can't.

That's not the can-do attitude we look for at INEOS

 

[Cassidy]

You can't.

Except plenty of teams do…

 

[The Mitcher]

That's not the can-do attitude we look for at INEOS

Ah, but they can fire him!

 

[The Mitcher]

Except plenty of teams do…

Who plays like United in football?

 

[Skills]

It'll get exposed up against a good team but maybe you could make it work against 80% of clubs with the following key players:

Allison - the best shot stopper around, because you'll still be facing a feck load of chances

2 terrific 1v1 defenders - maybe Saliba and someone else?

Rodri - you'll take a few years off his career though by the end of a season

Bernardo Silva and KDB quality of CAMs

Haaland - a clinical striker, because the smarter managers will manage to dominate you and you'll be reliant on a WC striker to feed off some scraps then

They'll all be much worse players than they currently are, in this structure though.

 

[Cassidy]

Who plays like United in football?

Not like United but with a single 6 plenty of sides. Its actually quite silly how fans who claim they watch football can’t recognise other teams who build up with a single 6 and double 8s City did it for about 3 straight years. The issue is not playing one holding midfielder the issue is the squad as a whole isn’t good enough to do it. You needs CBs to step up and be aggressive and you need wide players who work hard (including the fullbacks) who are also good inverting.

 

[The Mitcher]

Not like United but with a single 6 plenty of sides. Its actually quite silly how fans who claim they watch football can’t recognise other teams who build up with a single 6 and double 8s City did it for about 3 straight years. The issue is not playing one holding midfielder the issue is the squad as a whole isn’t good enough to do it. You needs CBs to step up and be aggressive and you need wide players who work hard (including the fullbacks) who are also good inverting.

Don't move the goalposts. No one plays like this, because they have actual midfields. On paper we have three, in practice we have one midfielder and two forwards (10s). No one plays like this in any 4-3-3.

 

[Cassidy]

Don't move the goalposts. No one plays like this, because they have actual midfields. On paper we have three, in practice we have one midfielder and two forwards (10s). No one plays like this in any 4-3-3.

Again City played like that for 3 years straight and thats only one example. The issue isnt the 2 8s pushing up its the other pieces not doing their jobs and the manager has said this plenty of times. No one is moving goal posts 6 with 2 10s/attacking 8s is nothing new in football

 

[bosnian_red]

It's more just coaching them and instructing them to play the positions differently. Nothing wrong with a 433. Of course you need the right personnel. You also just need to instruct them on where to move and how to play it properly. City play Rodri, de Bruyne and Bernardo but both de Bruyne and Bernardo will be far closer to rodri than our 2 more advanced midfielders to the defensive mid, whoever plays.

 

[JJ12]

Don't move the goalposts. No one plays like this, because they have actual midfields. On paper we have three, in practice we have one midfielder and two forwards (10s). No one plays like this in any 4-3-3.

He literally explained it to you, with an example of it working

 

[1950]

Don't move the goalposts. No one plays like this, because they have actual midfields. On paper we have three, in practice we have one midfielder and two forwards (10s). No one plays like this in any 4-3-3.

Let's not forget that Silva used to play as part of a front three or as one of the top two in a 4-2-2-2 box midfield most of his career before Pep pulled him back into midfield. This is as close as you will get having two "10s" and one non-attacking midfielder.

I remember plenty calling Pep crazy for starting that midfield in the beginning. Of course it works best if you're mostly parked in the opposition third where these players naturally thrive.

 

[Overhaul FC]

Don't move the goalposts. No one plays like this, because they have actual midfields. On paper we have three, in practice we have one midfielder and two forwards (10s). No one plays like this in any 4-3-3.

City did it for awhile. KDB last season played behind Gundogan who was more advanced. You can't say KDB is a textbook CM either. He was a number 10 playing alongside Rodri with Gundogan more as an advanced 8 or 10.

The very best teams can probably pull it off but we can't with the current squad we have.

If Ten Hag had better judgement than half of the posters on redcafe he would've known Mount as CM wouldn't work. It hasn't so far. If Ten Hag wants to stick with Mount in CM on his return from injury it will be what costs him his job.

With our current squad he needs to play 2 in midfield that can both defend adequately. The only combination that applies in that regard is Casemiro and Mainoo behind Fernandes, Eriksen or Mount in the 10.

I don't think he's done it before, but now that they're all fit, he has a chance to do the right thing. It's on him now.

 

[tjb]

Let's not forget that Silva used to play as part of a front three or as one of the top two in a 4-2-2-2 box midfield most of his career before Pep pulled him back into midfield. This is as close as you will get having two "10s" and one non-attacking midfielder.

I remember plenty calling Pep crazy for starting that midfield in the beginning. Of course it works best if you're mostly parked in the opposition third where these players naturally thrive.

That system worked due to Pep using inverted full backs. Delph was literally a midfielder. Plus, it's Pep. Ten Haag hasn't shown the capacity to be that creatively tactically and get it to work. United's suck because we are far too fluid in the back 6. You can't expect attacks to come from our full backs whilst also asking them to invert into midfield. Even our centre backs seem rather fluid in their positioning, which is why we always look so open on the counter. Add that fluidity to this system and you have the chaos we've had.

The truth is, for us to play as fluidly as Ten Haag would like in England, he has to make chops and changes in his set up to make it tenable. The formation might need to switch to a 343/352 to allow a structure to be set defensively. Where Pep was willing to think of ideas when the 4141 he tried at Bayern didn't work ( which is when he added the idea of inverted full backs). Ten Haag doesn't even seem to be trying to alter the system. I'm sure in his mind, he thinks simply improving the squad will fix this, whilst not even noticing that at present, it doesn't work in the Premier League because it requires too many movements for small actions, which due to the pace of the league, is really hard to acheive consistently.

 

[stefan92]

However one thing continues to be a black mark against ETH is inability to get the team playing to his vision, with this persistence of the one 'holding' midfielder and the high press leaving us wide open in transition.

This is the key point. I don't think the City comparisons made here are useful, as City is heavily possession based while EtH claimed he wanted to build the best transition team. And I honestly can't think of any current player being able to play the single DM needed for this system, as he needs extreme stamina and awareness to do his job. Probably prime Kante would have been able to do that, but that's about it.

The only team I saw that played a similar system was Cologne during the last two seasons, who at times (but not always) played a 4132 system - one DM, one AM, two wingers and two strikers! In that case they had Ellyes Shkiri as their lone DM, who was (and probably is) the Bundesliga player with the highest distance covered (on average 12.4km per match in 22/23). But even then it wasn't their standard system because it wouldn't work against anyone.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Again City played like that for 3 years straight and thats only one example. The issue isnt the 2 8s pushing up its the other pieces not doing their jobs and the manager has said this plenty of times. No one is moving goal posts 6 with 2 10s/attacking 8s is nothing new in football

More like it’s our two 8’s not doing or being able to do the defensive bit of their job along with a lazy premadona on the left wing not doing his job either and that is why we can’t play the way ETH wants.

 

[The Mitcher]

He literally explained it to you, with an example of it working

That city team didn't play in anyway like us it's an absolute fallacy.

 

[McTerminator]

You can't.

You can, but every single one involves a prime Ngolo Kante!

 

[United888]

Ok. So we've struggled this season for lots of reasons, including injuries and levels of work on the pitch. A lot of people are holding out to see if ETH can get the team playing better now with Casemiro and his preferred defence returning.

However one thing continues to be a black mark against ETH is inability to get the team playing to his vision, with this persistence of the one 'holding' midfielder and the high press leaving us wide open in transition.

So the question i am asking in this thread...

Can you make a first 11 made up of any player currently in any of the teams in the EPL where this formation will work successfully and be dominant week-in week-out against all EPL opposition?

IMO, ETH wants to create a team that similar to Klopp’s Liverpool. High intensity and aggressive pressing. We tried to play this high intensity and aggressive pressing then players couldn’t do it after 20 mins of the game. We also saw the dropped off from Liverpool last season because their players no longer able to coop with Klopp’s high intensity and aggressive pressing demands. Then, he bought brand new midfields and fixed the issue.

Put 11 made up of Liverpool 11 and we have ETH’s formation, system, and principal work successfully and be dominant week-in week-out.

 

[berbatrick]

Except plenty of teams do…

The best 4-3-3 ever was Pep's Barca, but they had 3 midfielders who were actual (GOAT) midfielders and focused first on dominating possession. They didn't use Xavi and Iniesta as auxillary strikers and have the entire team set up to move as quickly forward as possible.
I genuinely have no idea how a single holding midfielder is supposed to survive when all 5 in front of him are constantly bombing on.

 

[Pronewbie]

Ederson
Walker Stones Dias Gvardiol
Rodri
B. Silva KDB Foden Grealish
Haaland​

Swap Foden/Grealish out for Kovacic if you want a real B2B midfielder.

For me, the biggest negative about partaking in this exercise is that it puts our team to shame.

 

[Tyrion]

Not like United but with a single 6 plenty of sides. Its actually quite silly how fans who claim they watch football can’t recognise other teams who build up with a single 6 and double 8s City did it for about 3 straight years. The issue is not playing one holding midfielder the issue is the squad as a whole isn’t good enough to do it. You needs CBs to step up and be aggressive and you need wide players who work hard (including the fullbacks) who are also good inverting.

Let's be honest, I doubt many fans watch much of other teams. Often their complaints only really make sense if you assume they only watch their own.

 

[hobbers]

City have a pretty flawless system and a world class holding midfielder who knows how to stay on his feet, unlike any of the clowns we play there

More importantly their 8s have always been the best in the league with and without the ball. We tried using Bruno and Mount who are naff at both

 

[PepG]

This is the key point. I don't think the City comparisons made here are useful, as City is heavily possession based while EtH claimed he wanted to build the best transition team. And I honestly can't think of any current player being able to play the single DM needed for this system, as he needs extreme stamina and awareness to do his job. Probably prime Kante would have been able to do that, but that's about it.

The only team I saw that played a similar system was Cologne during the last two seasons, who at times (but not always) played a 4132 system - one DM, one AM, two wingers and two strikers! In that case they had Ellyes Shkiri as their lone DM, who was (and probably is) the Bundesliga player with the highest distance covered (on average 12.4km per match in 22/23). But even then it wasn't their standard system because it wouldn't work against anyone.

That is the biggest problem for Ten Hag at United. He wants to play with the Guardiola system but with Klopps football. He wants a hybrid of both worlds and that makes his attempts fery flawed because of the obvious vulnerabilities caused by his choice.. one must admire such an idea but the execution, sadly, is very poor..

 

[Borys]

Nobody plays like United. We don't play two AMs, because one of McTominay / Mount role is closer to a second striker (main job is to crash into the box? I'm not sure what else they're supposed to be doing) than anything with "midfielder" in job description.

Eriksen plays slightly deeper and closer to an attacking #8, but even then Bruno role isn't that restricted (compared to when McTominay /Mount play) and he's a pure #10.

So, no, you can't make this work less you change players roles.

 

[Dannn411]

With current players it cannot work.

 

[DJ_21]

Not like United but with a single 6 plenty of sides. Its actually quite silly how fans who claim they watch football can’t recognise other teams who build up with a single 6 and double 8s City did it for about 3 straight years. The issue is not playing one holding midfielder the issue is the squad as a whole isn’t good enough to do it. You needs CBs to step up and be aggressive and you need wide players who work hard (including the fullbacks) who are also good inverting.

You also need technical midfielders who are comfortable on the ball and can carry the ball.

 

[Cassidy]

You also need technical midfielders who are comfortable on the ball and can carry the ball.

Yes agree

 

[Bwuk]

We don’t have a Rodri in the middle.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

It's more just coaching them and instructing them to play the positions differently. Nothing wrong with a 433. Of course you need the right personnel. You also just need to instruct them on where to move and how to play it properly. City play Rodri, de Bruyne and Bernardo but both de Bruyne and Bernardo will be far closer to rodri than our 2 more advanced midfielders to the defensive mid, whoever plays.

This. Way too much is made of the formation. A lot of analysts say we play with 3 defenders and 2 midfielders in build up, so we can't even agree on the starting point.

 

[flameinthesun]

Ok. So we've struggled this season for lots of reasons, including injuries and levels of work on the pitch. A lot of people are holding out to see if ETH can get the team playing better now with Casemiro and his preferred defence returning.

However one thing continues to be a black mark against ETH is inability to get the team playing to his vision, with this persistence of the one 'holding' midfielder and the high press leaving us wide open in transition.

So the question i am asking in this thread...

Can you make a first 11 made up of any player currently in any of the teams in the EPL where this formation will work successfully and be dominant week-in week-out against all EPL opposition?

Not necessarily all from other teams in the league but I think if you add De Jong to the midfield, a Hakimi/walker type right back and a more direct right winger it would level up the team a lot. De Jong is perfectly able to receive the ball on his own in the midfield from the defence, a better RB who is comfortable receiving the ball from the GK and has recovery pace, a right winger who would force teams to not just focus on the left which is where most if our danger comes from would. Not saying it would solve all the problems as I think we likely need another striker but at the moment we can't really play through the midfield or from the back.

 

[golden_blunder]

We don’t have a Rodri in the middle.

Rodri would be done within 2 years if he was asked to do what Casemiro has been trying to do.

Bruno, Eriksen, McTominay, all offer no support to Casemiro when we don’t have the ball. That’s why you can drive a fleet of busses through our midfield

 

[NLunited]

Ten Hag‘s goal is to create overloads by pushing five players high and build up quickly with the others, it has been called creating artificial transitions by some.

Any system that commits high numbers forward will need to manage the increased risk defensively, with quick cb‘s and high workrates. We could improve on Rashford and older players like Eriksen and Casemiro, as well as another younger faster cb.

Although I feel the issue has more to do with the same mistakes being repeated, like failing to pick up players in midfield that are wide open. It is clear that the system breaks down as soon as one or two players don‘t follow instructions, or others aren‘t covering for their teammates.

This failure in communication and application is also apparent when defending set pieces. Defending these is coached extensively for sure.

 

[Skills]

feck it, it doesn't even work against League 2 teams

 

[simonhch]

What are the parameters specifically? Because I don’t think I can actually work out our formation. As far as I can tell, it’s one DM and two 10s who do whatever the feck they want.

With that in mind I guess I would go with a team that would keep the ball as much as possible, because I think it’s the only defence that’s viable. We sure as hell leave on man in midfield, so the other two midfields better be absolute technical ballers. So probably something like:

Alisson
James
Saliba
Dias
Udogie
Rodri
Bernardo Silva
De Bruyne
Saka
Haaland
Martinelli

Subs: Ederson, Timber, Gvardiol, Pau Torres, Caicedo, Odegaard, Grealish, Salah, Álvarez

 

[bosnian_red]

So even against a league 2 side, our pass still looks pathetic and has an enormous gap between the deep midfielder and the more advanced ones. It's such a shit system and entirely based on instructions rather than individuals.

 

[In Rainbows]

You need a fast CB so that our CBs can push up. Right now the distance between the CBs and the pressing done by the attack, leaves the lone midfielder with too much space to cover. You need a more compact set up. And it wouldn't hurt to have a FB filling in next to the midfielder a lot more than what we've seen.

Secondly, you really need a better #8 or two of them. You need a player that is technically good enough to be trusted to take care of the ball in a congested area, good enough to turn with the ball (to spring attacks via numerical superiority), and is good enough to be unpredictable. Unpredictability is important because as of right now, one of our #8s like McTominay has only one move, to pass the ball out wide. This predictability means no defender needs to challenge McTominay or they can with a good chance he passes it back. They know it will go out wide, which allows them to set up their defense because our wide players are also very predictable.

A good #8 or #10 in this system, needs to be able to carry the ball and have the ability to give through balls. Carrying the ball can make the numerical superiority more effective because if you can get by the initial challenge by the CB, your numerical superiority increases by 1. It will also make the killer pass easier as the striker can now find space left or right. If the CB doesn't challenge you, you have a great opportunity to get a shot off uncontested, or you'll be allowed to carry it into the box, which is bad news for the opposition. So having 4 options where you can pass out wide to your 2 wingers, have a through ball, or have the ability to dribble to pass or shoot, makes your numerical superiority far more effective. That's the whole point of sacrificing your defense, so it better be bloody worth it. Right now our #8s can't even make use of that numerical superiority. The opposition find it easily able to remain structured and get numbers back if the ball makes its way to the #8/#10. And yet, it's very easy for them to start counter attacks.

 

[JediSith]

Ok. So we've struggled this season for lots of reasons, including injuries and levels of work on the pitch. A lot of people are holding out to see if ETH can get the team playing better now with Casemiro and his preferred defence returning.

However one thing continues to be a black mark against ETH is inability to get the team playing to his vision, with this persistence of the one 'holding' midfielder and the high press leaving us wide open in transition.

So the question i am asking in this thread...

Can you make a first 11 made up of any player currently in any of the teams in the EPL where this formation will work successfully and be dominant week-in week-out against all EPL opposition?

Onana
Dalot Varane Martinez Shaw
Casemiro Mainoo
Fernandes/Mount
Amad Hujland Garnacho

 

[NZT-One]

Again City played like that for 3 years straight and thats only one example. The issue isnt the 2 8s pushing up its the other pieces not doing their jobs and the manager has said this plenty of times. No one is moving goal posts 6 with 2 10s/attacking 8s is nothing new in football

Well I wouldn't say the 2 8s aren't also an issue because, the two we've seen the most, Bruno and McTominay, have their own downsides in terms of limits in their skillset. But overall, you are completely right, it isn't a new thing at all and it isn't the system or formation we are using per se, it is our execution of it - a) the actual understanding of the system, who is doing what when, b) synchronisation, if player a does X, I have to do Y asap and c) overall subpar workrate. The system ETH has chosen this is ambitious, knowing our squad and from where they come from but it isn't wrong per se.

I think, people are way too hungup on the single-DM thing. I mean, the observation is correct, we aren't doing a good job of being solid in this area but it isn't like the system is just created like that. Just look at City, just in the last like 3 years they came up with multiple ideas to add personal to the middle in certain situations during a match. Be it a fullback who tucks in like Walker or Cancelo or be it a CB pushing up like Stones more recently. Pep and many other coaches try to create situational formations, against the ball it looks different than when on the ball. But this requires players to have a good understanding of their roles, a good general intelligence, round skillsets in a lot of positions and good workrate. For all the talk about the pros and cons, all our midfielders of the last years weren't really rounded in their skillsets. Yet you have seen posters claiming that Bruno and Eriksen should just play the 8 position. Now we finally have a few midfielders who can be trusted in midfield, Casemiro, Amrabat and Mainoo can contribute on and off the ball. Casemiro isn't one for the future, Amrabats overall level is probably a bit on the low side and Mainoo is young. But we are getting there. From what I've seen, even Mount is a bit more rounded than Bruno or McTominay.

And this time it isn't me saying we need to get rid of Bruno for it work, we just have to make more of an effort to balance it out. Casemiro, Mainoo and Bruno sounds pretty good on paper to me. Then either Martinez to push up or Dalot to invert (theoretically Shaw should be suited to do that as well) and a player with Antonys work ethic but Garnachos output on the right plus Hojlund with more service and more class in front of goal and we are set as a functional team. But it will take some for players to bed in. Injuries haven't really helped as they prevented synergies to emerge. Somebody said, the level of fluidity is a bit too high, I am inclined to agree. It seems to be a little to much to handle for some of our players.