Both very reactive players, don't get me wrong they have some strong qualities but going into a big game, you almost get the feeling that we've lined up as under-dogs and conceded having quality possession. These two are usually a bit more conservative passers and this usually links to Bruno not getting the ball enough in these games. I'm often having the feeling that we should line up with one or the other, not both which is overkill. Yes, together they bring a lot of energy but a lot of quality is sacrificed.
Can we control big games with Fred and McTominay in midfield?
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
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I’d like to see us stick VDB in for Mctominay at some point, but can’t see Ole trying it.
Much more likely to come in for Fred. The physicality McTom brings is invaluable.
Yeah that’s fair! Suppose that makes Pogba the answer then.
We've not got a win with them against the big 6 (I think) so far this season so I'm going to say no.
I think it's a more complicated question than this. This pairing has been very good at times and id choose them in most big games at the moment, but the measures lots of people use to see who 'wins the midfield battle', especially passing stats, don't align with our approach in big games where we're often content to see less of the ball.
No, when we start them together it's a containment job rather than a controlling one.
No they can’t pass for sh&t.
Id take the workrate and tenacity of fred over mctominays physicality.
Fred is a decent little passer.
Both are very average at best players and its only because we are so poor in the DM area we have to play 2 people to cover one role. Look at Partey who we will play against today. If you have the right DM and good CD behind don't hurt as well then another AM/BTB can be played instead. Whoever is manager next year I hope will address this.
The problem is Mctominay
No but a more valid point is I can't see us controlling big games with Ole as the manager. He's not possession orientated and there's nothing in what we've seen of his management to suggest that this is a direction we are going in. No new technical midfielder is going to change this.
No, but we’re not trying to
You might wanna wait for the game to be played first. These things aren't always straightforward. Both might just have a stormer today.
No.
They can’t control a midfield even against bottom half sides so, no obviously not.
No we can't, I'm not even sure it's worth a thread 
When we do finally control a big game with them in midfield, we can start the discussion!
When we do finally control a big game with them in midfield, we can start the discussion!I don’t think so. I would prefer it if it was one of Fred or McTominay with Pogba or VDB
Agreed, if we can keep the ball better, which I think VDB could help us with, then we'd have less defending to do in these big games. Then if we can move the ball quicker and more effectively to our attackers we might be able to transition or attacks quicker and make more of the pace we have. Am not saying VDB is perfect solution but would like to see him given a run there. McT had done well in big games but I also think he has shown that he can be positionally unaware at time, gets caught on the ball as he tries to run with it too much and his passing isn't as good as the others when under pressure.
Generally though with Fred/McT I'd like to see Bruno drop in more to a proper AM role, as I think it would help us move the ball quicker/not have so many holes centrally. At times given Rashford doesn't track as much (sometimes due to a tactical decision), if Bruno tries to do a one man effort and put pressure on a defender he can get bypassed quite easily and then we're outnumbered in the middle. Added to that with AWB not being great on the ball either when under pressure I think teams are more aware that if they press us then with AWB and McT and Fred (although he's better than the other 2 but still prone to a mistake) we can be got at through a high press.
Nope.
Wish someone would ask Ole why he continues with it.
The game becomes a scrappy slog, with them both being poor on the ball. We’ve scored one open play goal in all of them this season (6 games). Maybe after 10 games, he’ll get the idea.
Wish someone would ask Ole why he continues with it.
The game becomes a scrappy slog, with them both being poor on the ball. We’ve scored one open play goal in all of them this season (6 games). Maybe after 10 games, he’ll get the idea.
None of our midfield partnerships control games.
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No but none if our other options do
van de Beek Pogba
Mata
could control a midfield because all 3 are good in possession, Fred, McT & Bruno are bad passers. We’re never going to control a midfield with Bruno because he plays basically as a false 9 so we’re going to get outnumbered.
We’re never going to drop Bruno so if we want to control a game he needs to change his.
van de Beek Pogba
Mata
could control a midfield because all 3 are good in possession, Fred, McT & Bruno are bad passers. We’re never going to control a midfield with Bruno because he plays basically as a false 9 so we’re going to get outnumbered.
We’re never going to drop Bruno so if we want to control a game he needs to change his.
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Course we can.
The trouble is because it generally worked effectively in the big 6/7 games last season Ole thinks its the answer to the problem, however looks very much to me like the other teams have sussed us out and it's part of the reason why we aren't taking more points in these games. Ole really should have tried either of these with Pogba/VDB in one of these games earlier in the season just to see if it would have made us any more forward thinking
Ironically I think Arsenal had more of the play after McT went off
No.
I dont understand why ole keeps persisting with this double pivot partnership when time and time again this season it has proven to not be beneficial to use where as the two times that pogba and vdb have started together in midfield in big games has resulted in wins....
100% the 4-2-3-1 is primarily a defensive formation with two defensive midfielders, I think that Ole should revert to a 4-3-3. We played some of the more attacking phases of football with the Herrera, Matic, Pogba combination. I know a defensive midfielder will be needed to do this but fundamentally we should be looking to improve our performances going forward. It feels like rather than having a genuine system to work from Ole has scrabbled the players to together with some tactical fluidity.
Think it is to give Bruno the free #10 role. I'd rather see us try a 4-3-3 too but I don't know if we can get the best out of Bruno in that formation
We are not a team coached to keep the ball. Also, the way we set up it's like we force direct play so like you said, no midfielder is going to change that. It's an approach / tactical issue.
Really? Like when? I actually think the opposite, our best games come when those two are playing.
No, it can work in games where we’ll be under the pump but neither are good enough on the ball to control a game, Fred’s passing is very erratic can often have a poor touch and the same can be said about McTominay.
Well in the those two big games we won that van der beek and pogba played together in we also had mctominay playing as the defensive midfielder so surely that 3 man trio is worth persisting with considering it has produced 2 wins and 8 goals in those two big matches compared to the dreaded mctominay/fred partnership which we have barely scored a goal from open play with in big matches.
Edit: I got it wrong mctominay didn't start the Leipzig match but matic and fred did instead
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Our record against the big sides has been poor this season and they have usually featured together in midfield
I don’t think you can control a game with Fred as one of the two. Definitely has his qualities and brings ground speed and energy to the midfield but he’s far too wasteful on the ball to be a top PL CM.
If you take the Arsenal game as an example, I counted maybe 4/5 times when he lost the ball under moderate but not strong pressure. A world class CM would have made the passes, but Fred falls just short of that level.
If you take the Arsenal game as an example, I counted maybe 4/5 times when he lost the ball under moderate but not strong pressure. A world class CM would have made the passes, but Fred falls just short of that level.
Playing Fred and McTominay isn't going to allow us to control games, but it generally stops the opposition controlling the game as well. Then we back ourselves to win other areas of the field and score goals through individual brilliance.
Ultimately we need an upgrade on McTominay who is better at positioning (both on and off the ball) and passing.
Ultimately we need an upgrade on McTominay who is better at positioning (both on and off the ball) and passing.
Have you just made this whole post up? Pogba and VDB have never started together in a big game. Which wins did we get?
5-0 win against Leipzig and 3-2 win liverpool fa cup
What big games were they?
Against West Ham we were losing 1-0 until after we swapped VDB for Bruno, and against Liverpool it was 2-2 until we made that same change. The latter was actually a decent performance but the first certainly wasn't (which is why we took VDB off at halftime). I'm fairly certain they were the only two matches that trio has played together.
McTominay didn't play against Leipzig. It was a four man midfield of Fred, Matic, Pogba and VDB. McTominay did come on at the 63rd minute but VDB got taken off only a couple of minutes later and that's when we started tearing them apart.