I think that I got it. You think that defenders are expected to contribute to goalscoring which is why you thought Nkunku was a replacement for Maguire.
Christopher Nkunku to Chelsea | Confirmed
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If they brought us AWB (out of a few hundred RBs viewed) and Maguire for £80m, we’d have been better with Boy Scouts.
This discussion is reminding me of the Limmy's show clip where everyone is trying to tell him that 1kg of iron weighs the same as 1kg of feathers, but he just won't accept it and continues to argue the same point cluelessly.
OK we're just going round in circles here...I am going to list some players I see listed over and over again on this forum as "must-signs"...lets come back in 3 years and see how many we would have happily paid £50m for.
Timber
Antony
Tchouameni
Max Aarons
Kounde
Youri Tielemans
Christopher Nkunku
Boubacar Kamara
I would bet personally none of them end up being elite, whilst most of them end up having fair to middling careers at mid/slightly upper tier clubs.
Timber
Antony
Tchouameni
Max Aarons
Kounde
Youri Tielemans
Christopher Nkunku
Boubacar Kamara
I would bet personally none of them end up being elite, whilst most of them end up having fair to middling careers at mid/slightly upper tier clubs.
He scored 15 goals in 31 matches in the Serie A. Yes Mane was a very good player but no one, including you would have seen that he was going to be one of the very best in the next few years.
And that’s a bunch of poppycock, Lukaku scored a ton of goals there. Mkhitaryan scored 13 in 34 last season. An aging Dzeko has done well there. Morata has done well there. The Italian league isn’t as strong as it once was and hasn’t been for quite some time.
Should City have not gone for De Bruyne, Sane, or Gundogan. Liverpool shouldn’t have gone for Firmino or Thiago or now Konate who’s looking fantastic. Chelsea Kai Havertz. Spurs for Son? Arsenal for Aubameyang (before his big contract renewal).
It’s a player by player case.
Salah had previously failed in the PL which made his signing riskier.
People will often not accept that and that includes pundits. Two players are different, there is a reason why no one in France is telling you to watch out for Martin Terrier.
as bad as those transfers have gone this year I can still see the profile and how certain factors would sway the decision making process. I honestly still reckon on the balance it’s our forwards who have majorly let us down. We are paying our forwards that kind of money where they are expected to destroy teams and play great stuff and yet they walk around looking like they are slaves who hate life and it’s been going on for years. If your forwards can’t score enough or don’t want to work for each other you’re never going to win games. This also has the knock on effect where every defensive mistake may by the one that loses you the game. Even if AWB was the second coming of Cafu, who’s on the overlap or busting a gut to get onto the end of a cross? It’s just not clicking in front of them at all.
To add to this discussion as well; the likes of Mkhi, Kagawa, Van De Beek have all largely been thrust into the wrong position or just misused generally. Many have said how Utd m
Kagawa was a good player who showed some of his talent. However, we added RVP late that summer when the plan was to have Kagawa behind Rooney. Instead we had Rooney and RVP and Kagawa become a bit-part player.
Mkhi did his best work centrally but was shunted to the RW and asked to play in Mourinho’s functional hard working style rather than the more adventurous Dortmund style he had come from.
Van De Beek is another who may well just be an average player but I maintain he’s not had a chance still. 5-10mins of game time here and there in a dysfunctional team doesn’t help anyone. His best attributes is his intelligence and timing of runs into the box. We’ve been asking him to play like Carrick or not at all when he’s really more of a poor man’s Lampard. I still think in a 4-3-3 with Bruno and Van De Beek either side of a DM it’s Van De Beek I would want pushing into the box. Bruno is much more of a passer and should be the deeper of the two. Bruno would be KDB while VdB would be Gundogan.
Kagawa was a good player who showed some of his talent. However, we added RVP late that summer when the plan was to have Kagawa behind Rooney. Instead we had Rooney and RVP and Kagawa become a bit-part player.
Mkhi did his best work centrally but was shunted to the RW and asked to play in Mourinho’s functional hard working style rather than the more adventurous Dortmund style he had come from.
Van De Beek is another who may well just be an average player but I maintain he’s not had a chance still. 5-10mins of game time here and there in a dysfunctional team doesn’t help anyone. His best attributes is his intelligence and timing of runs into the box. We’ve been asking him to play like Carrick or not at all when he’s really more of a poor man’s Lampard. I still think in a 4-3-3 with Bruno and Van De Beek either side of a DM it’s Van De Beek I would want pushing into the box. Bruno is much more of a passer and should be the deeper of the two. Bruno would be KDB while VdB would be Gundogan.
And as we now know you make this confident assessment without ever having seen them play. Just like professional scouts do.
What will we do in 3 years? Has someone told you that any of these players or any player is guaranteed to be a success?
Unfortunately I cant say that I did a more in depth study into Depay, Werner or Pepe before they signed but to save me travelling through all their data Nicolas Pepe I would have said no to.
https://fbref.com/en/players/57e3f0c7/scout/2104/Nicolas-Pepe-Scouting-Report
This is his historic data from Ligue 1. On paper it looks good at first glance lots of high percentile play but then crucially look at non penalty goals - non penalty xG. In short he’d basically had a good season from stat padding with penalties and when you remove penalties he was scoring an average amount of goals for what was expected.
Then look at any of his passing stats. Not going to be creative in build up so we’re looking at a pacey wide forward that has relied a bit on penalties to show up.
Then what is the expectation of a wide forward? To receive progressive passes and get into the box to score. Well we’ve just seen he’s an average goalscorer minus the penalties so his 80th and 84th percentile for touches in attacking 3rd and penalty box and average ball carries basically mean I would ignore him for a wide forward role.
Sancho I would 100% back and still do. He’s going to be a success. DVB in the right system yes his stats were good enough but he’s in the wrong system at United.
I’ll be honest I can’t be bothered to look into the others but I think I’ve made the point.
And in case it isn’t clear you look at the profile, look at the needs of the team or who you expect the team to play and then you watch them play to see if your assumptions based on stats back it up or contradict them.
Basically it’s simple to profile a player, simple to see if they’d be a decent fit and then to see how good a fit they’d be you then have to observe then finer details by watching them play. But international caps by a certain age is an absolutely ludicrous and stupid way of deciding who to sign or not. Yes you always consider the age of a player and their minutes for their age but not international ones all the time.
Basically it’s simple to profile a player, simple to see if they’d be a decent fit and then to see how good a fit they’d be you then have to observe then finer details by watching them play. But international caps by a certain age is an absolutely ludicrous and stupid way of deciding who to sign or not. Yes you always consider the age of a player and their minutes for their age but not international ones all the time.
I have no issue with any of your posts because you have clearly put effort into them. The one thing I take issue with is this ridiculous focus on International caps.
I was making a very general point about my concern about his profile. Almost 25. One standout season in an inferior league. Little International experience. None of it screams "elite" at face value does it?
It has never, ever, been about saying "player x must have achieved y by z".
People ignore this though because they only read one or two posts, so they go "wot, no good player from Bundesliga errrrr Kevin de Bruyne" and then you have to repeat yourself for the millionth time and say " of course there are loads of good players playing in the Bundesliga but most of the truly elite one's will leave or be at Bayern by the time they turn 24 and/or be playing International football semi-regularly at that age"
I am interested in "elite". We are looking for the one in a million player. My point originally was we have very good players now, but few if any elite players.
My suspiscion is that your Nkunku's and Timber's etc...will be good but not elite. I am hoping we're still trying to find Rooney's, Ronaldo's, Ferdinand's etc....
If you look at the profile of the World's truly elite players over the last 20 years, very few got to almost 25 without a major transfer and/or International caps.
So yes I am sure some of these players listed are good or even very good...but "elite"? I find it unlikely, personally.
All the players must be elite otherwise we shouldn't sign them, obviously the quality of our squad is so high that only elite players are improvement on Maguire, McT, AWB.
The reasoning of not going after him just because we have Bruno has always been a bit ridiculous.
Man City have had and brought in multiple playmakers in a squad with KDB and David Silva before for years and it's only helped them.
Man City have had and brought in multiple playmakers in a squad with KDB and David Silva before for years and it's only helped them.
You don't need elite players per say, but rather players who enhance the way you play as a collective in the head coach's vision. It's about creating a elite team and not elite individuals.
Too many of our players are either not good enough when the game is being played behind them or not good enough when the game is being played in-front of them. 'Unbelievably good' players like Harry Maguire are fine when the game is being played in-front of them but extremely vulnerable when the game is being played behind them. Aaron Wan Bissaka's issues are in reverse.
So it's important you sign players who fit the profile of player required for the head coach's playing style. Because what's deemed as a elite player in another team won't necessarily be elite in our team. And that could be players playing in the same league.
And as far as Nkunku is concerned, we should look at him as a player who will enhance the approach of Erik ten Hag, potentially by providing versatility, explosiveness, movement, tenacity and a high level of productivity, as well the ability to apply pressure in a coordinated approach in a compact high block.
And the German and French leagues in particular are my go to leagues outside of the EPL. And that's due to the history of those leagues producing the greatest teams that have gone on to make their mark at the highest level in club/International football. And to do that you need to be absolutely elite at developing talent and they've shown that they're countries who are elite in that regard. And France in particular is leading the way when it comes to developing talent and according to Dan Ashworth (who oversaw the England youth teams win the u17/u20 World Cup), England copied the French formula to revive youth football in England, which culminated in great success at youth level, which ultimately led to raising the level throughout the country.
Too many of our players are either not good enough when the game is being played behind them or not good enough when the game is being played in-front of them. 'Unbelievably good' players like Harry Maguire are fine when the game is being played in-front of them but extremely vulnerable when the game is being played behind them. Aaron Wan Bissaka's issues are in reverse.
So it's important you sign players who fit the profile of player required for the head coach's playing style. Because what's deemed as a elite player in another team won't necessarily be elite in our team. And that could be players playing in the same league.
And as far as Nkunku is concerned, we should look at him as a player who will enhance the approach of Erik ten Hag, potentially by providing versatility, explosiveness, movement, tenacity and a high level of productivity, as well the ability to apply pressure in a coordinated approach in a compact high block.
And the German and French leagues in particular are my go to leagues outside of the EPL. And that's due to the history of those leagues producing the greatest teams that have gone on to make their mark at the highest level in club/International football. And to do that you need to be absolutely elite at developing talent and they've shown that they're countries who are elite in that regard. And France in particular is leading the way when it comes to developing talent and according to Dan Ashworth (who oversaw the England youth teams win the u17/u20 World Cup), England copied the French formula to revive youth football in England, which culminated in great success at youth level, which ultimately led to raising the level throughout the country.
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Really well said the first 4 paragraphs is pretty much what I was going to reply with
Biggest difference between horse racing and football (aside from the obvious) one is a team sport the other less so.
Nkunku could be the absolute best footballer on the planet but if his team mates are no good and can’t get the ball to him he’d look awful.
Is he elite? I’d say statistically speaking yes he is and I don’t see any statistical argument to suggest he’s not an elite footballer for his role. But there is never going to be any other way to agree or disagree if he is or not. If we just go based on opinion then there will always be room to disagree and argue so @Lentwood we’ll have to agree to disagree.
As Adnan has quite eloquently put he’d suit the system of football Ten Hag has played brilliantly and is already playing in a similar (though not identical) system at Leipzig.
So what we have here is a statistically elite player, playing in a similar system, with clear indications of his style of play matching those we’d require, entering his peak years for what I’d argue is a reasonable fee given the above.
Hence I’d fully support the signing of Nkunku.
OK so who would you want to sign then
I hear Mbappe is a terrific GK
How much? Because I'll take that bet. We just need to set the parameters for what is 'elite' so there's no ambiguity.
I agree, but must sign isnt just about beiing elite. Understand your sentiment though, cant comment on the first three as not seen much of them.......the rest though I pretty much agree with you Aarons is average, Kounde is massively over rated, Tielmans is a very godo player but doesnt fit what we need, Nkunku the same especially as we have left sided options and attacking midfield options in abundance regardless of quality....good player,w rong time.
Kamara for me is a must sign, I think he will develop into a very good player, elite no, but we need a quality defensive midfielder...amongst close to double digits signings, which we wont do in one window, but getting a really good young player that suits what we need makes him a good signing, gettign him free, makes him a must siging....Would i rather Bellingham/Rice of course but far too much for this window at least and Id take Kamara over Phillips regardless of prices anyway
Qe are poor and first eleven signigns are vital, but those wanting Nkunku, to play where?
Left wing we currentl yhave Rashford, SAncho, Elanga, attacking midfield we currently have Fernandes, VDB, Hannibal even Fred maybe movign forward, striker.....Nkunku simply isnt a striker
Not saying some of our options in these positions are not great but in comparison to the rest of our side, they are better than most positions, why spend £40-60mon Nkunku this summer out of maybe £200m when there are possibly 7/9 signings positionally (two for some positions) I feel we need more
Left wing we currentl yhave Rashford, SAncho, Elanga, attacking midfield we currently have Fernandes, VDB, Hannibal even Fred maybe movign forward, striker.....Nkunku simply isnt a striker
Not saying some of our options in these positions are not great but in comparison to the rest of our side, they are better than most positions, why spend £40-60mon Nkunku this summer out of maybe £200m when there are possibly 7/9 signings positionally (two for some positions) I feel we need more
Aimed at me? I have actually watched him in some games, but just not enough to really form a strong opinion, like I did with Sancho where I matched a lot of his matches and match touches at Dortmund.
I'd be happy to get some more information from people who have watched him a lot, but in general most people here just go with whatever fancy name has put up some good assists or goal figures in the season without properly having watched the player. A lot of people in the Sancho thread were surprised when it turned out he wasn't explosive and struggled to take players on. Which is fine, none of us are scouts and we all have lives to live. But at the same time I'd like for us to once get a signing or two right to actually make watching United interesting..
On Nkunku, from what I've watched, a player I'd compare him to is Rashford. Very good finishing, has a good pass, is fast. But a bit clunky when he goes on a technical dribble. Again caveat that I haven't watched him nearly enough, but then I don't plan to because I have better things to do and we'll probably sign someone that's the complete wrong fit anyway. But in general from the modern wide forward styles of 1) Converted striker 2) Playmaker 3) Technical fast dribbler I'd much rather we sign the latter type. The best sides over the last 10 years have all played 4-3-3 and their wide forwards have all largely been players that were good at dribbling a man. Real, Barca, Bayern, Liverpool etc.
I guess I go a little too much in the other direction vs stats, in that for example a player I've watched a lot and like is St Maximin at Newcastle. He doesn't get elite stats at a poor Newcastle side (until recently), but his on the ball ability, passing and finishing I think would be a big success at a better team. He does need coaching to make better runs in behind, but in general I think it's better to have those three attributes already and require coaching than vice versa. Just my personal opinion.
No, it wasn't aimed at you but at the person who thought that he was a CB.
Okay. In general though I do agree with @Lentwood and what he is saying. We do need to try and sign the players that will go onto be truly elite, vs the ones just a level below (e.g. Depay, Mikhi etc), which obviously is a very hard thing to do.
If you look at Liverpool, the style of play from Klopp helped, but they built their core with players that individually went on to be elite (which I'd define as as being a shout for the best in their position). Fabinho, Robertson, Mane, Salah for reasonable fees, and then of course VVD and Alisson for larger fees.
Who exactly disagrees with signing truly elite players over inferior players? That's not what the issue is with Lentwood, it's the fact that he talks about players and leagues he has no clue about.
I would probably start with going all out for Phillips and Rice. I don't think Phillips is an elite CM, but he's attainable and a much better player than he gets credit for. Rice is unbelievably good and would be absolutely perfect, but very expensive.
Then I'd sign Pedro Neto from Wolves. Has just returned from a serious knee injury but I believe he was well on-track to be an exceptional wide-player.
Do you think Bruce Willis and Damon Wayans would be any good then?
I would like one of them but not both, feel we should look on the continent for the other
How many of those players were rated as elite talents or 'for sure future elite players' before Liverpool signed them or when they were 22-23.
So you want us to be signing elite players and come up with that list? Actually made me laugh out loud.
Why exactly is Pedro Neto a better option than others?
None of them.
They all developed into great/elite players at Liverpool.
We need signings like that more than anything. Players whose best is ahead of them, that can take that next step up and fit into the manager's style.
The England midfield that get shat on by all and sundry at the Euro is definitely ‘elite’.
It's not going to be about signing anybody that is demonstrably elite at this moment in my opinion. Players like that don't just float onto the market aged 21-25. They're at top clubs or represent a profile of player that we probably want to avoid in terms of age.
It's about players who firstly fit the makeup of the next side. Then players that have at least a few years of expected progress. Then you hope the team comes together, and a core of that side you recruited become elite players by virtue of natural development and being a functioning cog in a working side.
Look at Liverpool. I know it gets boring to constantly reference them, but it takes an application of hindsight to think that most of the players they bought had a reputation considered elite. There were always a question you could level against their signings. Mostly that they didn't play at a top football club, we didn't know how they'd progress, and they had largely proven nothing at the higher ends of football in terms of winning trophies. Salah had even been at other top clubs and not immediately stood out as one of the future greats.
They did their scouting and got far more right than wrong, but it wasn't from a basis of signing people that you could have no argument over their elite status. If they saw a bloke at Southampton who had pace, ability, goals, they went for it. This is where it comes down to having elite scouts, and a great decision making process aligned with the managers ideas.
It's about players who firstly fit the makeup of the next side. Then players that have at least a few years of expected progress. Then you hope the team comes together, and a core of that side you recruited become elite players by virtue of natural development and being a functioning cog in a working side.
Look at Liverpool. I know it gets boring to constantly reference them, but it takes an application of hindsight to think that most of the players they bought had a reputation considered elite. There were always a question you could level against their signings. Mostly that they didn't play at a top football club, we didn't know how they'd progress, and they had largely proven nothing at the higher ends of football in terms of winning trophies. Salah had even been at other top clubs and not immediately stood out as one of the future greats.
They did their scouting and got far more right than wrong, but it wasn't from a basis of signing people that you could have no argument over their elite status. If they saw a bloke at Southampton who had pace, ability, goals, they went for it. This is where it comes down to having elite scouts, and a great decision making process aligned with the managers ideas.
This is an important point, United should only be signing players who fit the philosophy the manager will implement. Scouting infrastructure will be drastically important to have the relative success in who's acquired.
Exactly. "We should sign elite talents" and then giving Liverpool as example is contradicting statements.
Because premier league
So you want us to be signing elite players and come up with that list? Actually made me laugh out loud.
Why exactly is Pedro Neto a better option than others?
That point was ridiculous anyway. All teams try to sign the best players possible or the players with the best chance to become elite players. No one looks at two players and decide that they prefer to get the one that isn't elite or won't become elite.
Anyone that continually uses the word ‘hipster’ in their posts, or uses it to describe any opinion that doesn’t align with their own, should be taken out and shot.
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
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