City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches

[Gandalf Greyhame]

The "good faith" and "whattaboutery" accusations just because people don't align with you 100% are kind of cheap.

You mischaracterizing what good faith is about is on-par and very much the problem. Nowhere do I mention or expect 100% alignment. But I do have issues with posters making some contrarian throw-away posts tangential to the discussion and without basic due diligence in engaging with the response or following up. Your intent is not to learn or debate - but to make dubious comments and disengage without backing them up.

You are accusing people of not engaging in good faith on an issue that you say is "fairly obvious" and then say this in the first line of your post: "Nor is it a binary checkbox, but rather one part of a multi-dimensional spectrum that all countries exist on (this 'spectrum' itself is up for larger discussion)." So is it fairly obvious? Or kind of involved and complicated?

Point in case. What is fairly obvious is the opinion that Manchester City have gained unfair and illegal advantage on the pitch thanks to the Abu Dhabi Group flexing their financial muscle and manipulating socio-economic conditions - there is enough evidence to that. The multi-dimensional spectrum is about the image that a country projects of itself - which is a larger discussion on its own. They are two separate points, and I find it hard to believe that you can confuse the both if you truly read the post.

You then home in on the actions of nation states as would-be sports washers and then cite the Premier League, a private association of member clubs, as an erstwhile example of the UK engaging sportswashing.

Another point in case. Perhaps you genuinely do not know which country taxes the billions made in the PL, or the effect of football on the UK's economy, or the soft power that UK wields across the world by being the home of such a globally loved event, or how this soft power leads to socio-economic and strategic gains. Or - the more likely opinion - you know it, intentionally feign ignorance, and cherry-pick a point tangential to the point of that post where you think you can score a point to deflect away from the rest of the content.

You probably shouldn't lead with accusations and self righteousness if you actually want serious engagement. If you want to pontificate, carry on.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Don't start posts with 'Give it a read and report back' if you want serious engagement.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I just think it's conceptually hazy. As it is used, it can still be useful for human rights organizations and media to apply pressure on countries like UAE, Qatar etc. to change their practices.

It's one of the most simple concepts I can think of, whether you think it really works or how you can measure it surely is your argument?

 

[Taribo's Gap]

So what?

So considering the bold, you actually do believe it exists?

As for the rest, do you genuinely believe that to be the case? Or do you believe that the other way around, the reason why the notion of sportswashing was brought up in the first place, is more likely?

Because more conceptual clarity would help to clarify what elements of the practice are actually objectionable and should be rooted out of the game?

You mischaracterizing what good faith is about is on-par and very much the problem. Nowhere do I mention or expect 100% alignment. But I do have issues with posters making some contrarian throw-away posts tangential to the discussion and without basic due diligence in engaging with the response or following up. Your intent is not to learn or debate - but to make dubious comments and disengage without backing them up.



Point in case. What is fairly obvious is the opinion that Manchester City have gained unfair and illegal advantage on the pitch thanks to the Abu Dhabi Group flexing their financial muscle and manipulating socio-economic conditions - there is enough evidence to that. The multi-dimensional spectrum is about the image that a country projects of itself - which is a larger discussion on its own. They are two separate points, and I find it hard to believe that you can confuse the both if you truly read the post.



Another point in case. Perhaps you genuinely do not know which country taxes the billions made in the PL, or the effect of football on the UK's economy, or the soft power that UK wields across the world by being the home of such a globally loved event, or how this soft power leads to socio-economic and strategic gains. Or - the more likely opinion - you know it, intentionally feign ignorance, and cherry-pick a point tangential to the point of that post where you think you can score a point to deflect away from the rest of the content.



Pot. Kettle. Black. Don't start posts with 'Give it a read and report back' if you want serious engagement.

You led with "good faith" the first time I have ever engaged with you. It's cheap. I've made posts critical of City and questioning their commercial revenue, soullessness etc. 100% was hyperbole. Surely you can't seriously think that I believe anyone on here actually agrees on anything 100%?

The interjection wasn't tangential at all. You proffered a definition of the term that didn't even match with the way you use it or with the way that it is used by many. Asking questions with counterexamples is a heuristic method to flesh out what is actually meant by the term in order to foreground the discussion on common understanding. You would call that whattaboutery. If the term should only be narrowly circumscribed to apply to nascent states, say that instead of offering up a "definition" that doesn't even properly match that. That will raise a whole different set of issues. I think the conceptual haziness leads to people talking past each other because the concept is capacious enough as to have many features the desirability of which people may not all agree upon. Perhaps you see no problem with it and every thing is crystal clear in your eyes.

Re: UK and the PL that's all well and good, but it's also just proving my point about the complexity of the topic. I dare not invoke other examples that mirror exactly the scenario you lay out with an interplay of private and state actors in other countries lest I be accused of more "whattaboutery".

This can actually be quite interesting and raises many interesting questions about historical retributive justice between nation states, statecraft and diplomacy, late stage capitalism and wealth concentration, oligopolistic competition, the tradeoffs between different methods of trying to reduce the pernicious influence of money in the game etc. etc. etc.

If you're more concerned with preaching, just take the pulpit.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

The reports about City, regarding all numbers and financial matters, aren't an exercise in what one chooses to believe in or extract from what is being presented as fact? There's no reason to doubt them as an institution or believe they are partaking in subterfuge? Yes, ultimately I think practically everything regarding them boils down to what you believe because facts aren't necessarily facts - practically everything is dubitable - which is why they're in the shite they're in in the first place.

I couldn't click your link regarding Valverde because of the permissions the page is asking for, but that's the biggest European game and opponent City have ever hosted... do you think that's got the potential to be anomalous and an actual real turnout over other "sold out" games? Do I think other clubs boost attendance numbers at times? Yes. Do I think they do it anywhere near as much as City? Categorically not.

If this thread only went by what is verifiable about City it may as well be locked until an outcome is on the table.

You'll note I believe: they're cooking the books; paying the top players (and manager) a lot more than officially claimed; are strong-arming, or at least in cahoots with the government; are pumping money into Manchester for purposes other than serving the city with goodwill and virtuous deeds and will add falsifying attendance to the list. Perhaps I'm a tinfoil hat specialist... or perhaps City are seriously dodgy to the point it's incredulous and unprecedented.

It will be interesting to see what propaganda they will pump out once/if they get hold of a national newspaper.

In case you feel I have disrespected your effort here. It seems that the idea that every piece of information to do with City (no matter how minute) being tainted and unreliable no matter the source or intermediary is tantamount to an article of faith for you. No evidence or data brought to bear would matter that much to you apart from that which you witness and ascertain with your own faculties, because they are corrupt through and through and engaging in a overwhelming PR offensive. Is that a pretty close characterization?

If so, I understand why you feel that way, but I probably give more credence to some of the information than you might. In this scenario, I see no point going back and forth. I do otherwise appreciate your posts.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

I wonder how long this thread will be before the disappointing conclusion? It feels like it'll be similar one of those never-ending transfer threads where in the end there's not really anywhere near as much to it as everyone thought and the player just stays where he was.

City aren't getting punished in any meaningful way. They're far too powerful and far too popular with the media. It would cost the PL and the government far too much, and the PL won't want the hassle in the end.

 

[RedRocket9908]

Are the cheap deals they have got on numerous bits of land around East Manchester connected to the fact 2 former Manchester City Council leaders are on their books as honorary club presidents?

 

[Fortitude]

In case you feel I have disrespected your effort here. It seems that the idea that every piece of information to do with City (no matter how minute) being tainted and unreliable no matter the source or intermediary is tantamount to an article of faith for you. No evidence or data brought to bear would matter that much to you apart from that which you witness and ascertain with your own faculties, because they are corrupt through and through and engaging in a overwhelming PR offensive. Is that a pretty close characterization?

If so, I understand why you feel that way, but I probably give more credence to some of the information than you might. In this scenario, I see no point going back and forth. I do otherwise appreciate your posts.

I've no problem with that as everyone is going to have a particular lane and opinion when it comes to City. They are the most scandalous operation to have hit these shores and we're well into uncharted waters with a lot more twists and turns yet to come, I'm sure.

I didn't feel disrespected, but felt I'd make my position regarding them perfectly clear. They've buried so deep into the infrastructure of this country that it would be ludicrous to buy into anything they have to say, for my money.

 

[Oranges038]

They can’t even sell out their stadium, even now, as masters of the universe. That’s literally unheard of for the true giants at the peak of their successes. Think of any one of them: United, Madrid, Barcelona, Liverpool, Bayern, Milan, Juventus. At the height of their success they had all the fanfare that is supposed to accompany it. They could sell out their ground 1.5* over and they were the hottest ticket in town. That’s just not City, and in the digital realm, it’s still not them. Do I believe they’re getting there? Yes, but they just aren’t what they purport to be as of yet and they would need iconic players to become so in such short, unspectacular period of time.

The crooked everything else is what they are putting on front street to legitimise themselves and their supposed standing in the game, that few are buying for a second.

In fairness Juve could barely ever fill the Delli Alpi with 67,000. Even at their peak in the 90s with their European cup finals and during the 00s with all their league wins the average attendance was always about 20k less than the capacity. They cited distance, design etc etc.. but ultimately it was the low attendance figures that made them demolished it and rebuilt a newer smaller stadium.

Spoiler

Season	Juventus average	Torino average
1990–91	43,114	33,990
1991–92	51,832	35,364
1992–93	45,868	26,814
1993–94	44,520	26,130
1994–95	47,866	22,205
1995–96	41,946	20,284
1996–97	39,271	13,451
1997–98	47,347	19,505
1998–99	47,164	19,627
1999–2000	42,229	21,857
2000–01	41,273	17,077
2001–02	40,687	19,002
2002–03	39,771	14,870
2003–04	34,365	9,831
2004–05	26,429	10,003
2005–06	25,987	24,995

 

[Fortitude]

In fairness Juve could barely ever fill the Delli Alpi with 67,000. Even at their peak in the 90s with their European cup finals and during the 00s with all their league wins the average attendance was always about 20k less than the capacity. They cited distance, design etc etc.. but ultimately it was the low attendance figures that made them demolished it and rebuilt a newer smaller stadium.

Spoiler

Season	Juventus average	Torino average
1990–91	43,114	33,990
1991–92	51,832	35,364
1992–93	45,868	26,814
1993–94	44,520	26,130
1994–95	47,866	22,205
1995–96	41,946	20,284
1996–97	39,271	13,451
1997–98	47,347	19,505
1998–99	47,164	19,627
1999–2000	42,229	21,857
2000–01	41,273	17,077
2001–02	40,687	19,002
2002–03	39,771	14,870
2003–04	34,365	9,831
2004–05	26,429	10,003
2005–06	25,987	24,995

Yeah, I know about Juve and should have put an asterisk there. Asked a few of the Italians that used to be on here about their support and was told they were the most supported team across the country but the stadium attendance thing with them never made sense to me. I wouldn't even know how to draw up those posts, but I was given an answer at the time. They are definitely the odd one out as far as stadium support goes, however. @giorno hasn't been on in a long time now, I'm pretty sure he was the one who broke it down for me.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I need a thesaurus to understand some of these recent posts, so I’ll simply say I think City are guilty as xxxx.

Partly because they prevaricated last time but mainly because I refuse to believe that the PL advisors/lawyers have checked the info the PL have got and said the MULTIPLE breach charges are correct if they’re in doubt. The ridiculous attendance figures don’t help… neither does the senior manager of that betting Co sponsor being a Google stock image of “woman”.

I hope they get the biggest punishment possible.

They won’t though.

 

[pratyush_utd]

The longer the “investigation” takes, more time UAE has, to bribe its way through.

 

[Oranges038]

Yeah, I know about Juve and should have put an asterisk there. Asked a few of the Italians that used to be on here about their support and was told they were the most supported team across the country but the stadium attendance thing with them never made sense to me. I wouldn't even know how to draw up those posts, but I was given an answer at the time. They are definitely the odd one out as far as stadium support goes, however. @giorno hasn't been on in a long time now, I'm pretty sure he was the one who broke it down for me.

I only really remember because I used to watch a lot of Italian football, the one thing that always stood out was how sparsely populated the stadiums could look at times, not just Juve but in general across the league.

From memory I think it was the stadium layout and the sight lines with the running track that put people off going. Could be wrong, there was always that argument that Torino were the most popular team of Turin, but they had even lower attendances.

Maybe it was a combination of a shit stadium that was too far out of the way and ticket prices being too high.

 

[stevoc]

Are the cheap deals they have got on numerous bits of land around East Manchester connected to the fact 2 former Manchester City Council leaders are on their books as honorary club presidents?

Just a harmless coincidence I'm sure.

 

[GazTheLegend]

They need kicked the feck out of the league along with the rest of the "football groups" I.E. Newcastle and Chelsea et al busily trading human beings like live pokemon cards to balance their books for the latest brown envelope sent UEFA/FIFA/The Premier League/The British Govts way. It's just a wrecking ball of corruption ready to completely trash everything to do with the sport once and for all isn't it. How can you continue to take anything to do with the game seriously if they aren't dealt with.

 

[decorativeed]

Absolutely abhorrent comments by those City fans.

Also, here's the link to his article regarding his wife's passing.
LINK
Naturally its a tough read.

That's a hard read. Usually those things just make me panic about my own mortality, but that was just incredibly sad.

 

[RedRocket9908]

I wonder how closely La Liga are monitoring preceedings, the sudden rise to the top of La Liga of a struggling club like Girona (who are owned by Peps brother) since City Sports Group got involved must be attracting attention from the La Liga higher ups as well as the higher ups at Real and Barca.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I wonder how closely La Liga are monitoring preceedings, the sudden rise to the top of La Liga of a struggling club like Girona (who are owned by Peps brother) since City Sports Group got involved must be attracting attention from the La Liga higher ups as well as the higher ups at Real and Barca.

It is almost comical how obvious all this stuff is.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I wonder how closely La Liga are monitoring preceedings, the sudden rise to the top of La Liga of a struggling club like Girona (who are owned by Peps brother) since City Sports Group got involved must be attracting attention from the La Liga higher ups as well as the higher ups at Real and Barca.

Player from City, Brazilian winger loaned from Troyes (owned by same people who own City) and loans from Barca (who maybe underestimated Girona… lol), one of ten clubs owned by City‘s owners.

Nothing to see here, move along.

 

[Moriarty]

Player from City, Brazilian winger loaned from Troyes (owned by same people who own City) and loans from Barca (who maybe underestimated Girona… lol), one of ten clubs owned by City‘s owners.

Nothing to see here, move along.

As of January 2023, City Football Group has significant ownership stakes in the following 11 clubs:

• Manchester City
• NYCFC
• Melbourne City FC
• Yokohama F. Marinos
• Montevideo City Torque
• Girona
• Sichuan Jiuniu
• Mumbai City FC
• Lommel SK
• Troyes
• Palermo

(Courtesy of https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/nycfc-man-city-what-is-the-connection-between-mls-premier-league-clubs/bltcca5886e898ed43c)

Not that there's any scope for dodgy dealings there or anything...

 

[Fts 74]

That's a hard read. Usually those things just make me panic about my own mortality, but that was just incredibly sad.

Very sad

Absolutely abhorrent comments by those City fans.

Also, here's the link to his article regarding his wife's passing.
LINK
Naturally its a tough read.

That's very sad.
These keyboard warriors have no idea have they.

 

[JagUTD]

Very sad

That's very sad.
These keyboard warriors have no idea have they.

Many City fans suffer from a combination of decades of complete and utter irrelevance and a continuation of that while unable to comprehend why when they are winning everything.

Add to this an unconscious acceptance that it's all a lie and you create a very bitter, twisted person.

 

[crossy1686]

If Everton are owned by a middle eastern state then they would not be punished, that is very obvious if compared so far to Manchester City, the game has completely gone, corruption, deception, and that's before we even get to the thing called VAR, there's no integrity in football anymore and it's all becoming just one great big turn off.

Do you ever stop to consider that 115 charges take more time than 1 charge to review and make a judgement? And that’s only when the party involved willingly give you their documentation instead of refusing to cooperate.

 

[Giggsyking]

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can other premier league clubs take city to court for causing financial damage if the charges stick?

 

[SER19]

I reminded here in 2023 of all those city fans that appeared here in the years after 2011 - funny timing - and just relentlessly, endlessly did some of the most absurd mental gymnastics about the extent of their spending and how it just wasnt adding up that this tiny club could reasonably justify the spend in a sporting way. Here we are nearing 2024 and they still hang over the league like a dark cloud, a bad smell that undermines the integrity of the league. This has always been city's plan and will remain so - delay delay delay, and a certain apathy, jadedness or simple lack of the intial context will set in the people who have complained. Normalise them winning and being seen as a 'big club' and the initial absurdity will seem easier to justify. It will no longer seem like Burnley suddenly winning titles and signing world class players and managers.

The city fans didnt care then, and are now a decade deep in their delusion. What was said about City then remains true now but has become cliche- they are a pointless, hollow, corrupt club that are 'Manchester City' in name alone.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

can other premier league clubs take city to court for causing financial damage if the charges stick?

Yeah, they can take legal action against City. The beginning of this article gives a bit of an overview of what that might look like.

 

[Giggsyking]

Yeah, they can take legal action against City. The beginning of this article gives a bit of an overview of what that might look like.

Thanks, that sounds logical.

 

[terraloo]

Yeah, they can take legal action against City. The beginning of this article gives a bit of an overview of what that might look like.

They can invoke arbitration through the PL Grievance Procedure but not sure that can actually go to Law

I am not 100% but believe that when you become a member of the PL you in effect agree to let such matters be resolved through the PL process

 

[Taribo's Gap]

They can invoke arbitration through the PL Grievance Procedure but not sure that can actually go to Law

I am not 100% but believe that when you become a member of the PL you in effect agree to let such matters be resolved through the PL process

Yeah that sounds right. That's why I left it at "legal action". I'm not 100% sure either, but my bet would be that by the terms of PL membership clubs are bound, at least as a matter of first instance, to such arbitration as a means of dispute resolution to prevent a very destructive legal arms race (ironic, I know).

 

[Andycoleno9]

This is quote from former City lawyer.
"To be technical, the PL is separate from the EFL
There is an agreement on promotion and demotion between the PL/Championship, but all the PL can decide on is to relegate MCFC, anything more than that would be up to the EFL."

On the other hand, Delaney said this:
"Figures involved don't seem to think any prospective punishments would be retrospective or 'looking backwards' (ie stripping titles) but this is all described as 'unprecedented'."

As i still struggke with understanding of who is in charge for what in English football, can someone please be kind and explain to me this quote. They can't be demoted in Division one? Or they can? They can't lose titles?

 

[SuperiorXI]

This is quote from former City lawyer.
"To be technical, the PL is separate from the EFL
There is an agreement on promotion and demotion between the PL/Championship, but all the PL can decide on is to relegate MCFC, anything more than that would be up to the EFL."

On the other hand, Delaney said this:
"Figures involved don't seem to think any prospective punishments would be retrospective or 'looking backwards' (ie stripping titles) but this is all described as 'unprecedented'."

As i still struggke with understanding of who is in charge for what in English football, can someone please be kind and explain to me this quote. They can't be demoted in Division one? Or they can? They can't lose titles?

The Premier League is its own thing, it doesn't govern the Championship and previous levels of the English pyramid, they're governed independently. It's the PL that will punish city, their punishments are limited to the scope of the PL, however.

They don't have the power to send city to any specific level of the pyramid, they can only expel them from the top part (the PL). I think they can also technically strip them PL titles too.

 

[Buster15]

This is quote from former City lawyer.
"To be technical, the PL is separate from the EFL
There is an agreement on promotion and demotion between the PL/Championship, but all the PL can decide on is to relegate MCFC, anything more than that would be up to the EFL."

On the other hand, Delaney said this:
"Figures involved don't seem to think any prospective punishments would be retrospective or 'looking backwards' (ie stripping titles) but this is all described as 'unprecedented'."

As i still struggke with understanding of who is in charge for what in English football, can someone please be kind and explain to me this quote. They can't be demoted in Division one? Or they can? They can't lose titles?

This is just my take.
There are 92 professional clubs of which 20 are in the Premier League and the remaining 72 in the English Football League.

The PL operates separately to the EFL.
In the event that the PL decided to punish Manchester City (hopefully), they could decide what sanctions to take against them.
But they might not be able to tell the EFL that they had to relegate City into a specific EFL division.

 

[Andycoleno9]

The Premier League is its own thing, it doesn't govern the Championship and previous levels of the English pyramid, they're governed independently. It's the PL that will punish city, their punishments are limited to the scope of the PL, however.

They don't have the power to send city to any specific level of the pyramid, they can only expel them from the top part (the PL). I think they can also technically strip them PL titles too.

Wait.....what? So, they can expel them only from PL but Championship or Division 1,2 or National league don't have to take them?
Unless PL give them -100 points for example? (Which means only going to Championship).

 

[tomaldinho1]

The Premier League is its own thing, it doesn't govern the Championship and previous levels of the English pyramid, they're governed independently. It's the PL that will punish city, their punishments are limited to the scope of the PL, however.

They don't have the power to send city to any specific level of the pyramid, they can only expel them from the top part (the PL). I think they can also technically strip them PL titles too.

I think this is the realistic punishment, they will strip their titles but say 'we can't kick them out of the league because it will upset the promotion/relegation battle and be unfair & we can't have a season with 19 teams' so they'll give them a paltry fine and maybe a transfer ban for a year. Then the media will make out how 'unprecedented' the punishment is and how City have paid their dues etc. Then City just laugh and continue as they have done.

 

[Andycoleno9]

This is just my take.
There are 92 professional clubs of which 20 are in the Premier League and the remaining 72 in the English Football League.

The PL operates separately to the EFL.
In the event that the PL decided to punish Manchester City (hopefully), they could decide what sanctions to take against them.
But they might not be able to tell the EFL that they had to relegate City into a specific EFL division.

So, basically in England you can't be demoted in tier 3 or 4 without all these organisations being on same page.
Well, sorry but that is ridiculous.

 

[SuperiorXI]

Wait.....what? So, they can expel them only from PL but Championship or Division 1,2 or National league don't have to take them?
Unless PL give them -100 points for example? (Which means only going to Championship).

Correct, those other competitions can also decide not to take them, it's up to them. They could technically end up at the bottom tier if everyone rejects them, but that's unlikely. I think it's extremely unlikely they get expelled anyway so this is all just hypothetical fantasy land.

 

[hobbers]

Surely it would work the same as Rangers.

They were kicked out of the SPL. Then all the clubs in the football pyramid voted to put them down to the very bottom division.

So the Prem can kick City out of the Premier League, then all the EFL clubs would vote on where they would end up. Conference north through to Championship

 

[Andycoleno9]

Correct, those other competitions can also decide not to take them, it's up to them. They could technically end up at the bottom tier if everyone rejects them, but that's unlikely. I think it's extremely unlikely they get expelled anyway so this is all just hypothetical fantasy land.

. So it pays off to cheat in England.
Until few days i was sure that City will get Juve punishment at least. Losing titles, demotion in one tier bellow and starting season with minus point in lower league.

Well, this sucks!

 

[Taribo's Gap]

I think this is the realistic punishment, they will strip their titles but say 'we can't kick them out of the league because it will upset the promotion/relegation battle and be unfair & we can't have a season with 19 teams' so they'll give them a paltry fine and maybe a transfer ban for a year. Then the media will make out how 'unprecedented' the punishment is and how City have paid their dues etc. Then City just laugh and continue as they have done.

Interesting. So you think if it's an either/or proposition between keeping previous titles and being demoted a few levels versus remaining in the Prem but having the previous titles voided + fine and 1-year transfer ban, the latter option would be preferable?

 

[littlepeasoup]

The pricks can keep their ill-gotten titles, and even if not on paper there will be a great big asterisk next to every single one, and not just the titles of the seasons in question, but of every season after that.

Personally, if the the Prem decided to boot them out the league I could see the EFL wanting to knock them down the ladder a few rungs. If I was running a team in League 1 or 2, I'd be clambering for City to come to our ground and the inevitability of completely filling every seat in the place. Would be a big earner for some smaller clubs who struggle to get full attendances, and would be a spotlight on the lower leagues.

 

[RedRocket9908]

Pep Guardiola: Fans want Man City to be punished like Everton but I’ll stay – even in League One

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