Coaching and implementing movement at Premiership level.

Fortitude

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How hard do you believe it is to pick up and/or modify?

I am not asking with the notion it's a piece of pish, nor am I claiming to have the foggiest idea, but - and it is a big but - almost anyone who has been coached as even a single digit youngster knows the tenets of passing the ball and immediately moving into space to receive it again. It is intrinsic to the point of dogma as you rise through the levels, whether at school, regional or picked up by a top class outfit that is miles away from PL standard (when you're making your way, semi-pro, for example, is a massive leap most will never make).

The same drilling and coaching of movement away from, and off, the ball takes place from a very early age and, one would think, become staples of the pros we see before us. I believe the best modern coaches have mastered progressing play up the field in a multitude of ingenious ways that other coaching teams can't get to grips with let alone mimic or replicate unless you poach actual staff from the respective clubs, but there, I've drifted off into world class territory, which this thread isn't about.

What I am trying to get my head around is, how we sometimes put together some of them most intricate passages of play in the league (no, really) and at [most] other times we are completely static, like our players are meeting each other for the first time and don't know what to do to best interact with a team mate 20 meters from them. With or without coaching from our staff when it comes to movement, how is it that the players themselves haven't bred a comprehensive understanding of each others' game? Do you believe that is an age issue, a lack of experience, or both things having a factor? Why are they being extricated for a failing that should, at the least, be partially apportioned to them?

Coaching has its part to play and there is no question that a well-drilled side simply know what to do in times of crisis, such as take up specific positions or activate failsafes they no longer even have to think about, but on the attacking side of the game, some of the best sides to step on a football pitch are renowned for their players figuring things out for themselves, that goes as far back as: River Plate of the 40's; Real of the 50's & 60's; Brazil of 1970; Liverpool of the 80's; Barcelona of the 90's and so on. Point being success for these sides was not down to ceaseless coaching, but also their ability as a unit to do the fundamentals well and figure things out for themselves.

I notice on here the players are essentially absolved of all their failings in not passing and moving, as if it is solely in the hands of the manager and staff to get these players moving in the way they were taught at the numerous academies they graduated from - on that alone, you would be hard-pressed to refute our own academy doesn't have better movement and fundamental understanding of why it's needed than our first team. Surely one should argue that our players should be much further down the line in terms of familiarity than they are and that this, as much as not learning any nuance from an esteemed and lauded coach or staff, is to blame for our dysfunctional football?
 

17Larsson

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I often think players are over coached these days. They don't know how to think outside the system and use their imagination.

I'm probably wrong but that's what I feel is happening
 

JPRouve

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I often think players are over coached these days. They don't know how to think outside the system and use their imagination.

I'm probably wrong but that's what I feel is happening
The problem is that collectively imagination isn't a thing. If you imagine something right now, I have no chance to anticipate it and put myself in a position that will be useful to you in a few seconds. Imagination is only a good thing in isolation, even the term creativity is misleading, it's simply the ability to anticipate movements that you saw your teammates do over and over on the training pitch.
To answer the OP, teams that have good movements are drilled with their current set of players in order to build understanding and anticipation, the most common drill is shadow play. Players need to know each others, know their respective tendencies, strength and weaknesses.
 

adexkola

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The problem is that collectively imagination isn't a thing. If you imagine something right now, I have no chance to anticipate it and put myself in a position that will be useful to you in a few seconds. Imagination is only a good thing in isolation, even the term creativity is misleading, it's simply the ability to anticipate movements that you saw your teammates do over and over on the training pitch.
To answer the OP, teams that have good movements are drilled with their current set of players in order to build understanding and anticipation, the most common drill is shadow play. Players need to know each others, know their respective tendencies, strength and weaknesses.
Can someone explain Shadow play to me in layman terms?
 

JPRouve

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Can someone explain Shadow play to me in layman terms?
It's basically a drill where you work on patterns of play from a movement and positional standpoint defensively or offensively without actual opposition.
 

Forevergiggs1

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Can someone explain Shadow play to me in layman terms?
Shadow play is setting up a team for a game but without any opposition or ball. The coach then tells the players where the imaginary ball is on the pitch and the players have to move into spaces accordingly.
 

SadlerMUFC

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I think one of the biggest problems we have had over the past few years is that too many players like to show for the ball to receive to feet rather than look to make a run. I was just looking at some stats at https://www.premierleague.com/stats and one thing that stood out to me was that we have the second fewest offsides in the league (26). City, the highest scoring team in the league has the most (42). So does that mean that we time our runs better than City? I don't think so. I think it means we aren't making enough runs. A good example of a team making good runs is Liverpool, who is also tied for 2nd least offside with 26. Out player who has been offside the most is Martial. I don't for one second believe most of those offsides are due to mistimed runs. I think it's more of him not getting back onside. Meanwhile, our 2 players who I believe do make the most runs are Rashford (6 offsides) and James (2 offsides). James makes some great runs and puts in some great balls. Problem is, there is usually nobody on the end of James' crosses as Rashford and Martial are both guilty of not busting a gut to get on the end of them. Both players need to add tap ins to their CV and they will each score 30 goals per season. This is where I think a player like Halaand is a must. If we do manage to sign him I expect him to quickly become our starting striker and I also expect James to add an additional 10 assists to his season whould that transfer happen...
 

adexkola

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It's basically a drill where you work on patterns of play from a movement and positional standpoint defensively or offensively without actual opposition.
Shadow play is setting up a team for a game but without any opposition or ball. The coach then tells the players where the imaginary ball is on the pitch and the players have to move into spaces accordingly.
Thanks guys.
 

Fortitude

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The problem is that collectively imagination isn't a thing. If you imagine something right now, I have no chance to anticipate it and put myself in a position that will be useful to you in a few seconds. Imagination is only a good thing in isolation, even the term creativity is misleading, it's simply the ability to anticipate movements that you saw your teammates do over and over on the training pitch.
To answer the OP, teams that have good movements are drilled with their current set of players in order to build understanding and anticipation, the most common drill is shadow play. Players need to know each others, know their respective tendencies, strength and weaknesses.
This is true and a staple in itself, but the ability of a collective problem solving for themselves or breeding familiarity with one another seems to be a lost art for our players.

Perhaps @17Larsson is right and overcoaching to the point players don't think for themselves is an additional issue, but it feels as though we are behind the curve in terms of free thought and movement, that's a problem apart from what we are or aren't coaching them, don't you think?
 

Bepi

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Problem is you can’t be a top level footballer these days before being an athlete, that’s why we see many organised runs, tackles and jumps in fast transition but less dribbles, out-of-the-box passes or speculative plays?
 

adexkola

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Problem is you can’t be a top level footballer these days before being an athlete, that’s why we see many organised runs, tackles and jumps in fast transition but less dribbles, out-of-the-box passes or speculative plays?
Great for the spectator, horrible for the manager in a results oriented game.
 

JPRouve

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This is true and a staple in itself, but the ability of a collective problem solving for themselves or breeding familiarity with one another seems to be a lost art for our players.

Perhaps @17Larsson is right and overcoaching to the point players don't think for themselves is an additional issue, but it feels as though we are behind the curve in terms of free thought and movement, that's a problem apart from what we are or aren't coaching them, don't you think?
I don't think so because individually players do think for themselves that's the only thing that you can actually count on. The issue is the framework and how to synchronize that thinking, when you drill players the goal is to creates a range of situations that players may encounter and on game day players are free to use the experience that they gained during training as they see fit, football isn't like Basketball or Rugby where scripted plays are actually a thing, in Football the drilling only creates a sort of database, help players see the same thing and act in a way that can be anticipated by their teammates.
The way you are see things is individualistic, it doesn't actually work if you have more than one person involved. At any given time a player need to think about what he is seeing and what his teammates may be seeing, he then needs to anticipate his teammates actions or reactions and the only way to do that is through shared experience.
 

Fortitude

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I don't think so because individually players do think for themselves that's the only thing that you can actually count on. The issue is the framework and how to synchronize that thinking, when you drill players the goal is to creates a range of situations that players may encounter and on game day players are free to use the experience that they gained during training as they see fit, football isn't like Basketball or Rugby where scripted plays are actually a thing, in Football the drilling only creates a sort of database, help players see the same thing and act in a way that can be anticipated by their teammates.
The way you are see things is individualistic, it doesn't actually work if you have more than one person involved. At any given time a player need to think about what he is seeing and what his teammates may be seeing, he then needs to anticipate his teammates actions or reactions and the only way to do that is through shared experience.
I am buying what you're saying and don't disagree with the majority, but, I cited the teams I did for the very reason they were sent out and figured things out for themselves. The framework the manager then provided was tactical or reactionary. The caveat is obviously we now have a squad game rather than an xi, like most of the teams mentioned worked in, but even now, an Ancelotti or even a Mourinho wants his attack to retain the basics and create a framework of their own. Where these guys fall down is in having none of the modern day innovations or failsafes like the success stories of the here and now tend to.

I would hope we can marry the old with the new as I dislike the notion of our players being so dense and so automaton that without coaching they can't come up with much of their own volition despite how many hours training and familiarising themselves with one another?

Our coaching is not good, that much is clear, but the situation we find ourselves in is multi-threaded, imo. It shouldn't take a coach to tell Martial to move and work for space - even if he won't do it for himself, teammates should be telling him to go here or there as they would've been since he was a child. We're missing nuance amongst these players just as much as coaching, if not more but it doesn't get much of an airing amidst the constant referral to the coaching, which doesn't predate the fundamentals these pros have had drilled into then long before they even turned professional.