g = window.googletag || {}; googletag.cmd = googletag.cmd || []; window.googletag = googletag; googletag.cmd.push(function() { var interstitialSlot = googletag.defineOutOfPageSlot('/17085479/redcafe_gam_interstitial', googletag.enums.OutOfPageFormat.INTERSTITIAL); if (interstitialSlot) { interstitialSlot.addService(googletag.pubads()); } });

Conceding cut-back goals

MyOnlySolskjaer

Creator of Player Performance threads
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
27,000
Location
Player Performance Threads
It's just so easy to score against us like this, we are so bad positionally and our players are so lazy in the defensive transition. The Odegaard one and the 3 from Brighton were especially bad.

It feels like every cutback will get through us and Onana has no chance saving it.
 

Big Ben Foster

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
13,095
Location
BR -> MI -> TX
Supports
Also support Vasco da Gama
Not surprising. With the rise of data and analytics, football in general seems to be converging around the cut-back goal as the most optimal way to score, in the same way that basketball has converged around the three-pointer.
 

Lash

Full Member
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
12,465
Location
Buckinghamshire
Supports
Millwall, Saint-Etienne
Funnily enough, this is something I have to hammer the young lads on my team currently and why I still get decent minutes at my age.

Your job as a midfielder is tracking runs as well. If you're clever enough position yourself to cut off the angles, fair play. It's far easier to just follow the run of the man off the ball and get goalside or in-between the ball and player, though.

Our midfield just don't do it. My hope is Amrabaat should be doing this for us, but the rest need to pull their fingers out their arse and stop ball watching.
 

Vernon Philander

Full Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2014
Messages
905
It’s the physics of being able to hit more of the ball, making chances that much better to convert to shots on goal. City have been doing it for years
 

Ricardo de la Vega

Full Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,020
As the guys have identified, its a midfield problem with there not being either the numbers (counter attacks and weak rest-defence positions from inverted full back or central midfielders - Casemiro can't cover them all) or the effort/concentration (Bruno, Eriksen, Casemiro, McTominay and Mount have all been guilty in the first few weeks of season).
 

SirScholes

Full Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
6,205
It’s something we should be scoring for fun with the pace of our wingers and the late runs from our midfielders
But no, rashford instead tries to cut inside 11 times out of 10
And our manager only plays a rw who will pass up the option to take on his man and if he’s not available, put a striker or Bruno there instead
 

Ole'sgunnarwin

Full Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2021
Messages
1,691
Over the last 10 years, Bayern have been the best team at cut back goals so will be interesting to see what happens this week
 

Drizzle

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
1,350
Losing Shaw and Varane have been massive blows.
Varane certainly, he's an important organising influence. As much as I like Shaw, he's actually prone to inviting wingers to travel into our box and doesn't help at all with this issue.
 

Offside

Euro 2016 sweepstake winner
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
26,798
Location
London
Football is a simple game. The best teams do the basics right. We have lots of players capable of brilliant moments but can’t do the basics. An intelligent team like Brighton just picks us off.
 

RedOrange

Full Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
1,124
Funnily enough, this is something I have to hammer the young lads on my team currently and why I still get decent minutes at my age.

Your job as a midfielder is tracking runs as well. If you're clever enough position yourself to cut off the angles, fair play. It's far easier to just follow the run of the man off the ball and get goalside or in-between the ball and player, though.

Our midfield just don't do it. My hope is Amrabaat should be doing this for us, but the rest need to pull their fingers out their arse and stop ball watching.
To your point:

First goal - McTominay

Second goal - Eriksen

Third goal - Bruno
 

RedOrange

Full Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
1,124
As the guys have identified, its a midfield problem with there not being either the numbers (counter attacks and weak rest-defence positions from inverted full back or central midfielders - Casemiro can't cover them all) or the effort/concentration (Bruno, Eriksen, Casemiro, McTominay and Mount have all been guilty in the first few weeks of season).
It's mostly this. None of the three goals Brighton scored came from counter attacks really. They played the ball around the back a bit, then moved the ball up the half-space/flank to get the winger open, then the wingers dribbled and cut the ball back. On similar plays where United was attacking Pascal Gross is right there in the box covering the midfielders.

I know people love to blame the manager but PL footballers shouldn't have to be told to track runners, and there's no chance ETH and the coaches are instructing them to jog back while watching attackers sprint past them into the box. It's just laziness and lack of concentration. I'm not sure what there is to do about it besides benching and selling players who won't do it.
 

r0663664

Worships Man City
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
2,720
Location
Singapore
As long as our opponents work harder then us, we will shit our pants. Very soon, we will revert back to Ole ball, less pressing from the front and more counter attacking. I think we don't have the personnel to play like Liverpool. Liverpool really turns up the pressure when they fall behind, whereas our players folds everytime we concede. I am pissed with how Erik wasted 400 million made available for him.
 

Lash

Full Member
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
12,465
Location
Buckinghamshire
Supports
Millwall, Saint-Etienne
To your point:

First goal - McTominay

Second goal - Eriksen

Third goal - Bruno
On the first goal, it was Casemiro who was really to blame, but point still stands about the rest of them. Damning.
 

Irwin99

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
Messages
9,531
I was more concerned at the very start of the season by how easy it was to get in behind our full backs but this is definitely noticeable too.

Some of the goals we've conceded this season have been criminal from and individual and team perspective. Can't think of a single defensive player who hasn't fecked up big time at some point in 5 games.
 

RedOrange

Full Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
1,124
On the first goal, it was Casemiro who was really to blame, but point still stands about the rest of them. Damning.
McTominay jogged back watching the ball while his runner sprinted past him. They switched up but he needs to be all the way into the box there. Casemiro wasn't effective but he was trying to be in the passing lane and didn't succeed.
 

bosnian_red

Worst scout to ever exist
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
58,167
Location
Canada
I keep waiting for us to try and actually get into a trend of doing cut backs given they are by far the easiest and most effective chance to score.
 

Oldyella

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
5,921
Not sure if I am remembering wrong, but I am half certain we went through a similar phase a few years ago becoming very susceptible to cut back goals
 

UDontMessWith24

Full Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2011
Messages
4,023
I keep waiting for us to try and actually get into a trend of doing cut backs given they are by far the easiest and most effective chance to score.
We had a couple of pull back chances but 3-4 Brighton players converged on the shot.
 

3KDré

Full Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2015
Messages
6,638
Not sure if I am remembering wrong, but I am half certain we went through a similar phase a few years ago becoming very susceptible to cut back goals
You’re not. And it was when we had no DM, but McFred. Pretty sure Hasenhuttl even came out saying that it’s pretty obvious we are ok running going forward but going back our team doesn’t want to run. Same problem again. No surprise we’re getting overrun in midfield with Casemiro and Eriksen in midfield, neither of whom have legs.
 

Care_de_Bobo

Full Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
2,375
We had a couple of pull back chances but 3-4 Brighton players converged on the shot.
The thing is that Brighton are well drilled in this aspect of the game and by constantly practicing these attacking moves, the defenders in the team get better at dealing with it because they are trying to stop it in training every single day.

We're clearly not practicing this enough as our wingers are constantly cutting in which means our defenders and midfielders have to adapt to it in game situations instead of it being drilled into them during training sessions. If all of our midfielders are failing to track runners, it's likely because they don't have to track these runs in training and aren't truly alert to the danger come match day. It's seems to be a lack of understanding, rather than laziness.
 

Oldyella

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
5,921
You’re not. And it was when we had no DM, but McFred. Pretty sure Hasenhuttl even came out saying that it’s pretty obvious we are ok running going forward but going back our team doesn’t want to run. Same problem again. No surprise we’re getting overrun in midfield with Casemiro and Eriksen in midfield, neither of whom have legs.
Cheers.

Lets hope Amrabat hits the ground running.
 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
34,063
You’re not. And it was when we had no DM, but McFred. Pretty sure Hasenhuttl even came out saying that it’s pretty obvious we are ok running going forward but going back our team doesn’t want to run. Same problem again. No surprise we’re getting overrun in midfield with Casemiro and Eriksen in midfield, neither of whom have legs.
Well the good news on that front is that we've made two signings in their positions who will be back from injury imminently. So if their lack of legs is the problem, there are alternatives.
 

3KDré

Full Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2015
Messages
6,638
Well the good news on that front is that we've made two signings in their positions who will be back from injury imminently. So if their lack of legs is the problem, there are alternatives.
I agree. I think people are seriously underestimating the effect 1 or 2 players can have to a team. I mean even last year, just getting Casemiro in stabilised our whole season. In 2/3 weeks we should be going from
Onana
AWB Lindelof Martinez Dalot
Casemiro Eriksen

to
Onana
AWB Varane Martinez Dalot
Casemiro Amrabat

Just looking at the names alone we look a hell of a lot more solid. 2 of those goals yesterday could have been easily prevented had we had a midfield that had energy. We've been creating chances aplenty, just preventing them has been an issue.
 

MadDogg

Full Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
16,030
Location
Manchester Utd never lose, just run out of time
On the first goal, it was Casemiro who was really to blame, but point still stands about the rest of them. Damning.
Both he and Scott were pretty much equally to blame. Casemiro jogs back, then runs for a moment to get himself back almost into position, then jogs and pretty much stops. Scott jogs back the entire way.

If either one of them had actually got back properly they probably stop the goal.
 

Oranges038

Full Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
12,402
Pretty sure there were studies done that show cut backs are the most effetcive way of scoring goals. That it easier to get into those positions to create than it is to create by crossing from wide areas or through balls.
 

Big Ben Foster

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
13,095
Location
BR -> MI -> TX
Supports
Also support Vasco da Gama
Pretty sure there were studies done that show cut backs are the most effetcive way of scoring goals. That it easier to get into those positions to create than it is to create by crossing from wide areas or through balls.
Correct. And given how far behind the curve we are on data and analytics, it's unsurprising we haven't set up our defensive scheme to try to prevent these types of goals.
 

KikiDaKats

Full Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2015
Messages
2,607
Location
Salford
Supports
His Liverpool supporting wife
It's just so easy to score against us like this, we are so bad positionally and our players are so lazy in the defensive transition. The Odegaard one and the 3 from Brighton were especially bad.

It feels like every cutback will get through us and Onana has no chance saving it.
Just like the days of SAF how Spanish teams used to score against us.
Though one might argue Brighton should not be that top end team exploiting such a rectifiable weakness. It’s not really about midfielders not tracking runners solely, it’s a forced error some teams build their attack towards. Especially the possession heavy teams and we faced one of the best at it in Brighton.
By using Casemiro to double team their wide men, we automatically exposed ourselves. Italian teams tend to use CBs to step out for the interception and let FB cover their rear, that as well has its own problems.
 

Oranges038

Full Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
12,402
Correct. And given how far behind the curve we are on data and analytics, it's unsurprising we haven't set up our defensive scheme to try to prevent these types of goals.
Feels like Utd have been conceding those kinds of goals for years.

City have perfected the creation of these chances during Pep's time. Dragging teams around and waiting for that gap to appear between the fullback and centre back to exploit.
 

arnie_ni

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
15,256
Both boxes. Does anyone know the last time we scored from a simple cut back?
 

Hoof the ball

Full Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2008
Messages
12,391
Location
San Antonio, Texas.
Arsenal and City have players constantly running into channels between the FB and the CB. Underlaps, underlaps and underlaps all the time and players in the box anticipating cut across.

Who the feck underlaps for us? Bruno? He just waits outside the box to put in a cross so it isn't him. Eriksen? Not on your life. You cannot produce cutback opportunities without runners In half spaces.

We do not even try things which City and Arsenal do in automaton.
 

youngrell

Full Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2016
Messages
3,619
Location
South Wales
Our whole defensive transition has been hugely different to last season. During that very good run up until spring, it was evident how quickly we got back in shape and how compact we were, teams found it very difficult to score against us or find much space at all.

Don’t know if it’s physical, mental or maybe the introduction of Onana and the different dynamic that brings, but we have been so open it’s ridiculous.
 

lex talionis

Full Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
14,286
Our midfielders are not sufficiently alert to danger when it arises and thus we concede goals. Our new keeper has some work to do as well on his primary function -- shot stopping.
 

Dominos

Full Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
7,016
Location
Manchester
I think almost a big a concern is how few of these goals we score ourselves.

One of the easiest types of goals to score is work a good position in a wide channel/get to byline and to smash/roll the ball across the face of the 6 yard box between defenders and goalkeeper, and have one of your players tap it in. Haaland and City in general score loads of tap ins at the back post from this type of attack.

The 2nd type is the same but instead of smashing across the 6 yard box, to cut it back instead.

We're just not very good at consistently getting our players into good positions out wide to cut it back or play it across the face of goal, and when we do work the position the delivery is poor. Hopefully with Hojlund actually willing to make good runs we can start to get those tap ins where the ball is played across the face of goal. The cut back goals need to increase also.
 

RoyKeaneReborn

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 25, 2022
Messages
77
We used to score these type of goals all the time. Cut back, then Scholesy/ Keano/ Butt smashes em in. And we made it look so easy then.
 

In Rainbows

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
6,775
McTominay jogged back watching the ball while his runner sprinted past him. They switched up but he needs to be all the way into the box there. Casemiro wasn't effective but he was trying to be in the passing lane and didn't succeed.
Yep. Mctominay had the whole scene play out right in front of him. He had the best view of what danger lied ahead and he just never attempted to cut off the trailing runner.