Constant changing of starting positions - Hurting or helping development?

[AngeloHenriquez]

Young strikers tend to play on the wings before being moved centrally, CM's often play out wide and CB's often play FB.

Question is: Is the lack of a definite position for a lot of our players hurting them? Cavani for example knows the striker role so well, he knows when to drop off, when to run but a lot of younger players like Rashford, Martial, Greenwood even have played so many positions that they never get to fully master one.

I wonder whether this lack of nailing down a position and mastering it will hurt them, it happens here more than anywhere else too, do you agree with it? Is it partially responsible for these players not being as good as we had hoped by now?

 

[ManchesterManchester]

Really great post which highlights a big issue we have. It’s so important we develop players because we can’t afford to buy ready made players like Chelsea and Man City.

Greenwood was developing absolutely brilliant, scoring crazy numbers for a young player. Many Utd fans can recognise that he is ready and can be one of our best ever strikers yet suddenly we went and signed 36 year old Ronaldo. Although I am delighted we have Ronaldo, it was all very short sighted and done for the wrong reasons (marketing). It hasn’t helped Greenwood at all, he didn’t need to be inspired by watching Ronaldo train, he was doing just fine and on the right trajectory already.

Also All of the promising youngsters from our academy have not seen the grass either (Hannibal etc). Can’t blame Ole or Ralf for that though because we have a bloated squad of overpaid players that don’t want to leave. The manager has to give them playing time while they are still here.

Just horrendous management from the board has prevented any youth having the opportunity to have a good run of games in a fixed position.

 

[simmee]

Young strikers tend to play on the wings before being moved centrally, CM's often play out wide and CB's often play FB.

Question is: Is the lack of a definite position for a lot of our players hurting them? Cavani for example knows the striker role so well, he knows when to drop off, when to run but a lot of younger players like Rashford, Martial, Greenwood even have played so many positions that they never get to fully master one.

I wonder whether this lack of nailing down a position and mastering it will hurt them, it happens here more than anywhere else too, do you agree with it? Is it partially responsible for these players not being as good as we had hoped by now?

Rangnick have to get time to get to know the players and nail down his starting eleven, but in the long run I agree.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Rangnick have to get time to get to know the players and nail down his starting eleven, but in the long run I agree.

We have seen it with several managers now though and if you look at all the top players they never played multiple positions...

 

[wolvored]

Good point, but it's also on the managers heads as they give the nod to these players. Sancho was chased for 2 seasons and how Greenwood was developing was he really needed over a CDM/CM when Cavani was here as well as Martial and Rashford? Without Ronaldo his game time would still have been curtaiiled.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Good point, but it's also on the managers heads as they give the nod to these players. Sancho was chased for 2 seasons and how Greenwood was developing was he really needed over a CDM/CM when Cavani was here as well as Martial and Rashford? Without Ronaldo his game time would still have been curtaiiled.

Another good shout, we chased Sancho and got him and his first 2 positions are RW and LW, he's now playing a no10 role. I can't think of many young players here that haven't been played out of position, I just think it's not helpful when trying to master movements, positioning etc

 

[Deery]

I’d say no, if you have been playing football since age 4-5 until now a professional player I don’t see how switching wing or playing a few games up top will seriously hinder your development.

In saying that I think Rashford should only play left wing and Mason Right they obviously aren’t good enough in other desired positions.

The striker position is extremely hard to play and you have to be somewhat of a natural to play it like Cavani, I hear all the time Greenwood should be a striker but never see the same work from him as a Cavani of course his finishing is absolutely fantastic but all round game I’m not sure about.

 

[DickDastardly]

Young strikers tend to play on the wings before being moved centrally, CM's often play out wide and CB's often play FB.

Question is: Is the lack of a definite position for a lot of our players hurting them? Cavani for example knows the striker role so well, he knows when to drop off, when to run but a lot of younger players like Rashford, Martial, Greenwood even have played so many positions that they never get to fully master one.

I wonder whether this lack of nailing down a position and mastering it will hurt them, it happens here more than anywhere else too, do you agree with it? Is it partially responsible for these players not being as good as we had hoped by now?

Martial is a lousy CF.
We played him as a CF, didn't do too bad, but once you see how Cavani plays - you get to see the difference.

Rashford. Is he really a striker? Did he play as a CF in his young days?

Greenwood is a quality young lad, my money is he'll get the most out of his career from the three mentioned.
He has a left and a right foot. Strikes the ball cleanly.
He just needs proper game managment from the coaches and needs to work on his decision making on the pitch.


And yes. Some of them are not as good as we had hoped. Nothing to do with playing positions.
They are just not as good.

We as a club have a habit of holding mediocre players for too long.
(Cleverley, Fellaini, Mctominay, Martial, Jones, Smalling, Darmian.....the list goes on and on.)

Last proper center forward we had was Robin Van Persie. That was 7 years ago.
What we should do is sell Martial, let go of Cavani at the end of the season, let go of Ronaldo and buy Haaland.
A front three of Sancho, Haaland and Greenwood is as deadly as can be.

 

[roonster09]

We have seen it with several managers now though and if you look at all the top players they never played multiple positions...

Messi played as winger and false 9.
Ronaldo as winger/Wing forward and CF.
Iniesta as CM and LW.
Bastian as winger and CM
Vidal every position.
Scholes as striker, AM, CM
Gerrard as RW, AM, CM
KdB as RW, AM, CM.
Giggs as LW, CM
Keane as AM and CM.
Henry,RVP, Griezmann as winger and striker
Mbappe as winger and striker.
Puyol as CB and FB.

And there are so many other examples.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Been saying this for years. Mata gave his career up to play on the RW. We have spent 6 years trying to shoehorn Pogba into a double pivot. Martial gets slated all the time but he is a LW not a striker. Lingard is a 10. And on and on we go.

On top of that we get managers with vastly contrasting styles of football. Moyes, Van Gal, Mourinho, Ole, Rangnick. Not all players suit all systems. Most of the players we have now suit a counter attack style of football. If you started from scratch looking for players to suit 4-2-2-2 high press many of our players would not be picked. Not because they are no good but because they don't suit that style of football.

Football is simple but we make it so hard. Pick a system. Pick players that suit that system and then play them in their best positions. In other words set them up for success. Thats what Klopp and Guardiola do so well and we do so badly.

 

[Oranges038]

Messi played as winger and false 9.
Ronaldo as winger/Wing forward and CF.
Iniesta as CM and LW.
Bastian as winger and CM
Vidal every position.
Scholes as striker, AM, CM
Gerrard as RW, AM, CM
KdB as RW, AM, CM.
Giggs as LW, CM
Keane as AM and CM.
Henry,RVP, Griezmann as winger and striker
Mbappe as winger and striker.
Puyol as CB and FB.

And there are so many other examples.

Keane also played right back for Forrest.

I think Gerrard also have played there for Liverpool.

Maldini played all across the back line for Milan.

Rooney could play anywhere across the front line or wide midfield.

Other players like Davids, Seedorf, Overmars, Eto'o, Villa, played in multiple positions in midfield and up front.

Ultimately, it boils down to the players intelligence and willingness to learn. I think players with good work ethic and a good football brain can adapt and build up an understanding for a of number positions.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Keane also played right back for Forrest.

I think Gerrard also have played there for Liverpool.

Maldini played all across the back line for Milan.

Rooney could play anywhere across the front line or wide midfield.

Other players like Davids, Seedorf, Overmars, Eto'o, Villa, played in multiple positions in midfield and up front.

Ultimately, it boils down to the players intelligence and willingness to learn. I think players with good work ethic and a good football brain can adapt and build up an understanding for a of number positions.

Most of those are irrelevant, they all nailed down a solid position for the majority of their careers except Rooney who I think could have been better at one position if he had nailed one down.

 

[Oranges038]

Most of those are irrelevant, they all nailed down a solid position for the majority of their careers except Rooney who I think could have been better at one position if he had nailed one down.

How are they irrelevant?

They were good enough to play difderent positions, do it well and develop into their mainstay roles for the majority of their careers, having adjusted to the physical side of the game and building an understanding of the game around them, and in the process becoming top class players.

Rashford clearly isn't capable of doing it and neither is Martial. It remains to be seen with Greenwood.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Who else actually does it? I can't really think of any apart from Foden, but he's so talented he can play pretty much every position at a doddle.

I feel that we've taken a bit of shine away from Greenwood by forcing him into a wide workhorse.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Not sure cavani is a good example, he was shunted out wide for many years at PSG, although not his formative years

 

[Trequarista10]

Rashford just isn't a CF against teams that park the bus, nothing would have changed that, its not a case of training or being moved positions he simply doesn't have the attributes. He's a left inside forward, but we made it difficult by signing a pure 10/second striker in Bruno, as a 4231 you need your wide players to be midfielders not pure inside forwards.

Greenwood is different, he can be anything he wants. Needs to improve in certain areas as you'd expect at his age, but the game time on the wing has been beneficial for his development. I'd have liked to have seen him play as the CF in the cups, but squad management was the let down there. Not the ideal partner for Ronaldo in a two upfront formation but I'd back it to work given time as he's too good. Problem is, lack of wide options means he's needed elsewhere. Sancho is the only quality genuine wide player we have, started slow but coming into his own now. Bruno off form and struggling to adapt to the 4222. Rashford looks out of sorts wherever he plays. Big question marks over Pogba, Lingard and Martial futures, so we'll continue to see Greenwood from the right at times whilst we have Cavani and Ronaldo fit and playing well. Two incredible players for Mason to learn from.

 

[Daengophile]

It was interesting to see Cavani instructing Greenwood at times

 

[Galactic]

It’s experimetation time. To see who fits to which system. It’s better to do a thorough testing before changing the squad and system. It will take time.

 

[Ogaranya]

I don't think that it hinders their development, a talented player will not have any issue being shift to a position similar to his preferred one

 

[Foxbatt]

There is an interview by RVP who said in the Netherlands they had to play in various positions when they are developing as players. It helps them to understand the game a lot better. I don't have issues of Greenwood playing across the front or dropping deep. The same with Sancho. Though I agree it may not be their best positions.

 

[TwoSheds]

Do you remember that time Cavani became a world class striker by definitely never playing on the wing? That's the biggest problem at Man Utd now, the players being so stupid they can't play more than one position or formation. We should solve it by never playing them in more than one position or formation.

 

[antsmithmk]

Football is simple but we make it so hard. Pick a system. Pick players that suit that system and then play them in their best positions. In other words set them up for success. Thats what Klopp and Guardiola do so well and we do so badly.

The problem is we keep switching managers and systems, but not the players. If you look at the current squad it's still got the stamp of SAF, Moyes, LVG, Jose and now Ole on it. Ralf has got what he's got to work with but if we don't stick to a plan and system for more than a couple of years but keep signing players on 4-5 year deals we are going to be in a mess.
Whilst it is a silly thing to state, I suspect most of us have played football manager before. If you took over United in a fantasy world you would be transfer listing about 10 players in the first week and looking to replace them with 2-3 quality world class players. Just off the top of my head the following could be let go and have very little impact on the starting 11;

Henderson
Dalot
Mata
Lingard
Martial
Jones
Van Der Beek

Get those off the wage bill and bring in
CDM x2
RBx1

And the squad then fits the system that Ralf wants to play (this 4-2-2-2).
I've never know a team have so little squad depth in central midfield. If Fred and Mctominay get injured, who come in? Matic and who? Pogba is always injured, Van Der Beek can't be a deal of cop as he never gets picked so your down to playing players in positions that don't fit the system.

 

[UpWithRivers]

The problem is we keep switching managers and systems, but not the players. If you look at the current squad it's still got the stamp of SAF, Moyes, LVG, Jose and now Ole on it. Ralf has got what he's got to work with but if we don't stick to a plan and system for more than a couple of years but keep signing players on 4-5 year deals we are going to be in a mess.
Whilst it is a silly thing to state, I suspect most of us have played football manager before. If you took over United in a fantasy world you would be transfer listing about 10 players in the first week and looking to replace them with 2-3 quality world class players. Just off the top of my head the following could be let go and have very little impact on the starting 11;

Henderson
Dalot
Mata
Lingard
Martial
Jones
Van Der Beek

Get those off the wage bill and bring in
CDM x2
RBx1

And the squad then fits the system that Ralf wants to play (this 4-2-2-2).
I've never know a team have so little squad depth in central midfield. If Fred and Mctominay get injured, who come in? Matic and who? Pogba is always injured, Van Der Beek can't be a deal of cop as he never gets picked so your down to playing players in positions that don't fit the system.

Agreed but its worse than that. Lets say we started from scratch. Would you pick Ronaldo for a high press system? Probably not. Im not saying it cant work Im asking if he is an ideal number 9. Then who is another ideal number 9 next to him? Only Cavani. So we have 1 ideal and one not ideal but really good striker and both are really old and one is leaving and injury prone. Then you look at the 10's. Again if you started from scratch who is ideal? Bruno looks like he struggles because he has to push left and he gives away the ball too much. Pogba? I would think so but he wants out. DVB looks ideal but not wanted. Lingard the same. Sancho looks good. So thats one ideal player. Then you have midfield that needs at least 1 addition maybe 2. Then you look at the fullbacks. Are they good enough? Maybe Shaw if he picks up form and the jury is still out on Dalot, WB and Telles - i.e. can they cement their place as top LB/RB's over a whole season that you can hang your hat on to win a trophy. Then what about the CB's? Is Maguire going to pick up form? Can we rely on Bailly? It just goes on and on. Hopefully there will be a lot of players that will step up but maybe not.

Then on top of all that who is going to be the manager in summer? Will they play 4-2-2-2? If not we start again. Who fits their system and who doesnt.

 

[frostbite]

Messi played as winger and false 9.
Ronaldo as winger/Wing forward and CF.
Iniesta as CM and LW.
Bastian as winger and CM
Vidal every position.
Scholes as striker, AM, CM
Gerrard as RW, AM, CM
KdB as RW, AM, CM.
Giggs as LW, CM
Keane as AM and CM.
Henry,RVP, Griezmann as winger and striker
Mbappe as winger and striker.
Puyol as CB and FB.

And there are so many other examples.

Exactly! These players are world class players. What else do they have in common? None of them is our academy product - after the class of 92. That's almost 30 years now! People underestimate how hard is to produce world class players. The simple truth is that in the past 20 years none of our academy players was world class. It doesn't matter who the manager is, or the system, or their positions... they just weren't world class, so after a while they fizzle out. It is easy to get excited by an 18 year old, but 99% of the time he will end up a Welbeck or a Cleverley. Still much better than your average footballer, but not what some people were dreaming of.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Another example is we don't know whether Donny plays the 6/8 line or the 10 line, Greenwood is being played in the 10 line but I think should be in the top line, we don't know their positions!

Am I wrong here? Should Mason really not be in the top line playing up top? You pick one of Ronaldo or Greenwood and pair with Martial or Cavani, to complement their styles...

 

[romufc]

Our biggest issue is midfield. Until we get players or players learn how to control a midfield we will not be any better.

I watched Chelsea v Liverpool, where Chelsea have a weak forward line and played 2 v 3 in midfield.

Yet, they controlled the midfield because they had 2 players who are brilliant. Kante and Kovacic are levels above our midfield.

I said this before and still think the same, not even Norwich would take our midfield as starters.