Coronavirus Champions League - QF - Harms vs Peanut/Jam

[GodShaveTheQueen]

......................................................HARMS....................................................................................................PEANUT/JAM

TEAM HARMS

• Tactically, I think that 3-5-2 is one of the best formations against a 4-4-2 (or a 4-5-1); you have numbers in midfield, you have 3 defenders to cover 2 strikers and your front 2, if it's mobile enough (and it is), can keep all of the opposition's back 4 pinned down for most of the time. The main requirements are 1. at least one technically brilliant center back (Baresi, Chumpitaz, check) 2. tireless and multi-faceted fullbacks (check & check) and 3. mobile and energetic front two (check & check)
• I’ve switched to a more conservative approach by adding the greatest ever defender to an already impressive defensive unit. Baresi’s incredible mastery of the game would allow my midfield a bit more freedom, as I don’t need a dedicated holder anymore — although both Bozsik, as a deep-lying playmaker, and Robson as an ultimate box-to-box, would contribute quite a lot defensively.
• I like that I was also able to move Gullit centrally, in a free-roaming role, which makes the best use of his unique skillset. He was never a true number 10, nor was he a number 9 or a winger either, at his best he had played in all of those roles combined. I also think that both him and Kocsis will gel together quite naturally.
• Rivera also gets a little more responsibility in the attacking third — those of you who have seen a lot of him would know that he loved to make those mazing dribbling runs and pull out wide (both left and right) to create more space for himself and for his partners. He also consistently scored in double digits per season, even becoming a capocannoniere once in 1972/73. Bozsik would help out more in the build up.
• P.S. Captain Marvel, O Capitão do Tri, El Capitán de America plus Franco Baresi and Gianni Rivera, who between them have 27 seasons as AC Milan's captain. Campbell, van der Sar, Gullit and Bozsik all wore an armband regularly. What I love about this side is its core's mentality, they'd rather die than lose a game.

This is why I've decided to pick Carlos Alberto, even though I already had 2 right backs:

And any excuse to post this video — a game that I thought a lot about recently. I feel that in many ways it's even more symbolic than the following World Cup final. AC Milan, led by Rivera, represents the more individualistic football of the 60's, Ajax, led by young Cruyff, is already trying to implement totaalvoetbal's philosophy, that would be so dominant in the 70's. But the 70's are not yet there, there's still a year left, and an incredible individual performance by Gianni Rivera, one of the purest artistic talents in all of football's history, grants the last win to the glorious past.


TEAM PEANUT/JAM

Tactics: 4-4-1-1/4-4-2 attacking

Instructions: Move as a unit in both phases of the game, stay compact, the whole team attack and defend

In offensive phase: possession with purpose or a quick, direct attacking play

In defensive phase: zonal marking with a high defensive line. Also, hard aggressive press as soon as the ball is lost trying to regain possession. Team press as a unit in the direction of the ball.

The Team

Changes from the last round see possibly Uniteds greatest ever CBs in Stam and Ferdinand. Both have the pace and tactical nous to play in a high line and ensure the press can be engaged quicker/earlier than previously and also making a team more compact.

Johan Cruyff - Game changer

The great Johan Cruyff comes in for Baggio as a leading orchestrator of the team and looks well into his element here being the fulcrum in such a hard working yet still immensely creative side. The side who will work their socks off, but still provide him a massive help in both phases of the game allowing him to lead the team.

He's got the legs of Kante behind, with Suarez aiding so much on the creative side. Nedved and Beckham add a massive set of problems for the opponent on each wing. Both had a great pass in them, one having a golden right foot and being probably the best crosser ever and the other being such a complete player capable of hurting you with his passing, crossing or shooting. Their work-rate again compliments the rest of this team.

Luigi Riva leads the attack and team press while also being a huge threat in the air or with his thunderous shot which he will no doubt have a chance to use with such a service behind him.

Conclusion: harms has some great players, some that would fit perfectly in our system too, but overall as a unit his team will have troubles copping with such intensity all over the pitch while it is hard to see our attack and especially Cruyff being contained.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Good luck @harms @P-Nut @Jim Beam

 

[Moby]

Christ this is close as hell. Both managers even hired the same guy to do their graphics.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Christ this is close as hell. Both managers even hired the same guy to do their graphics.

Harms is a genius. First game he was making tactial moves for his opponent, this game he lured the opponent with his designs to get the teamsheet before the game.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

For team P/J, I would rearrange the players a bit.

Riva was one of those who clearly performed much better from the left and should be on that side of the graphic.

While Cruyff's favorite side was also left, I think he pulled strings from everywhere and I'd rather have him on the right here.

I also think him being on the left gets in Nedved's way a lot, so I'd avoid that overlap too. Dont see any such worries with Becks.

Other than that, its as solid a team as it gets.

For Harms, I think moving to a 3-5-2 was a great idea w.r.t his midfield. As much as I didn't like it in a 4-2-3-1, I think its great here. Baresi on Cruyff can be a game changer.

I am not sure how good Sol Campbell would be as a wide CB, so would be good to hear on that.

I am also not a fan in general of Rivera in a 3-5-2. I think to get the best out of him, you should have wingers/wing forwards who would provide him options in all directions to find with his passes along with the central strikers.

I still think its pretty good, with Branco and Carlos Alberto being great fits and Gullit roaming all over, but on the counters (which was his biggest strength IMO), I think Rivera's output will decrease a bit due to having only two options ahead of him.

 

[harms]

Harms is a genius. First game he was making tactial moves for his opponent, this game he lured the opponent with his designs to get the teamsheet before the game.

You can notice, that their footballers look surprised and disoriented (especially defenders), because they are absolutely shocked by 2 early goals by Gullit and Kocsis. All part of the plan.

 

[harms]

I am not sure how good Sol Campbell would be as a wide CB, so would be good to hear on that.

He covered wide positions very often, thankfully he had pace to burn.


Also there was this

 

[harms]

Hard to criticise P-Nut's team — I was a huge fan of their set up in this first round and here, despite losing Beckenbauer, I think they've managed to do make an even more coherent unit.

Still, if any player is placed the best to win the game here, I think that it's Rivera — 4-4-2 has a slight issue with players that drift in-between the lines, especially since both center backs and both midfielders already have direct opponents. And Baresi is always due a superhuman performance to keep even the greatest ever attackers in check

 

[Gio]

He covered wide positions very often, thankfully he had pace to burn.


Also there was this

Yeah good fit there. Plus he excelled for Hoddle’s England in the same role in a 3-5-2 at France ‘98.

 

[2mufc0]

Sol was always pretty decent on the ball, I think in the previous era's he could play as libero. I recall him making quite a few runs out of defence like this.

 

[Physiocrat]

Still, if any player is placed the best to win the game here, I think that it's Rivera — 4-4-2 has a slight issue with players that drift in-between the lines,

Would you say that was true in the case of a 4231?

 

[harms]

Would you say that was true in the case of a 4231?

Depends on a midfield set up. Kante is all about running and not about holding and Suarez, while positionally disciplined, isn’t well equipped to stop an all-time great trequartista. If you have, say, Desailly or Voronin in a 4-2-3-1, then it deals with such issue better. Also, most 4-2-3-1 consist of a holder-b2b-playmaker, while here we have a b2b (although a defensive one) and a playmaker with a free-roaming Cruyff ahead of them.

 

[Jim Beam]

ou can notice, that their footballers look surprised and disoriented (especially defenders), because they are absolutely shocked by 2 early goals by Gullit and Kocsis. All part of the plan.

thought it was a bit weird looking when you send it. Good luck, harms, and thanks!

It is true, 3-5-2 matches very well against a 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 as it outnumbers or matches the opponent numbers in midfield and allows CB's to push forward. The thing is that our team has Cruyff as that player who will drift all around and be mostly unmarked. Forget the formation pic, it is Riva upfront with Cruyff having full freedom to drift and attack from central areas (so, overlapping with Nedved is not an issue at all) helping in both phases of the game. And who is going to pick him going forward? Robson tracking back? Bozsik? No way. Baresi could do the job, but if I want anyone from that team out of defense it would be him. That defense will be absolutely barraged from distance too alongside other options to open you up.

The second point is that our team has absolutely insane energy levels which will be on the display for the whole 90 minutes. Pretty much every single player can do that in the team while I can't imagine having a better pair of CB's then Stam/Ferdinand to deal with Gullit/Kocsis. Don't agree it is perfect for harms in the attack as I would definitely prefer some more mobile striker upfront then Kocsis to be picked up the rest of the team/Rivera. If we are talking about Romario, Muller or those types of forwards then it is a different thing. I also don't think the team is on the same wavelength, Baresi balances it to some extent, but not enough imho. Problem is that Riva is on Baresi immediately and will not allow him to play it from the back safely. Since it is a collective pressing it will be used to shut down central areas and force opponent wide while Stam/Ferdinand can eat those crosses all day.
No way our team will have the same problems with playing from the back since it faces Kocsis/Rivera pair. Gullit can do it, but not on his own. Robson can do it, but Bozsik can't. That's the reason why I think the opponent will have no choice than to push back. And I will always back the more aggressive and more attacking team in a close game. If harms had more pressing or more counter ability with a different type of player alongside Gullit then maybe it would be a different thing, but he doesn't.

Third point, the game will be played under our condition meaning it will be played figuratively at 300 miles per hour. Pretty much like a pinball game. You can't stop that if the other team has that amount of collective pressing ability. Yes, it is a hard risk - hard, high reward system. But, to really punish it you need to have that fantastic counter ability as the only team that will be pinned back in this game is the other one.
Also, I think the loss of Best from the first round (while improving the defense) was a loss of an x-factor in that attack and losing that extra individual ability to make the difference giving Rivera more options once he's on the ball. Yeah, Rivera is in a good spot, but he doesn't have so many options that he did while he was having Best and this team will not give you more than a second to think in possession. On the other hand, I would back Cruyff as that guy (if we are talking about the attacker operating between the lines) to decide this game.

Forth and last one. While having such immense pressing ability there is no other team that can punish you once the ball is taken with quick vertical passing as ours through those CB's, Suarez/Cruyff axis and Riva upfront.

Just my 5000 cents, p-nut will come around later and I won't comment that much/if at all. Just wanted to put my thoughts on the game, so I decided to write a book.

Oh, yeah, love the team name, cheers.

 

[Synco]

You can notice, that their footballers look surprised and disoriented (especially defenders), because they are absolutely shocked by 2 early goals by Gullit and Kocsis. All part of the plan.

Even your own Sol Campbell can't believe what he just witnessed.

 

[DVG7]

Had to read up a bit on Luigi Riva as I wasn’t sure pnut and Jim were going to get the best out of Beckham’s crossing ability, but seems like Riva was pretty good in the air. This is a really brilliant 442, has a bit of everything and rio + stam is as perfect a CB combination as you can get.

 

[Synco]

I must say, Stam/Rio/Vogts is a great set of defenders for sweeping up behind a pressing pack.

 

[P-Nut]

Hi all, I'm awake now so will read through and give my thoughts on it so far.

First thought my thoughts on our own team.

This is probably one of the best teams I've built so far whilst drafting. It has a bit of everything going on really, whilst still being all on the same wavelength.

Central defence has pace, ariel presence and ball playing abilities. Full backs are both solid defensively, whilst being more than capable of overlapping their wingers.

Midfield makes use of Kantes stupid high engine and Suarez play making ability without taking away from Cruyff running the game, whilst the numbers battle is aided from having 2 hard working wingers who can come inside when needed, but if they choose to stay wide are just as devastating.

Then the attacker has one of the hardest players to shut down in Cruyff as he is electric, he'll move to the area of least resistance and double up on them. Plus Riva up top sets the tone for the hard working nature of the full 11.

 

[P-Nut]

Riva was one of those who clearly performed much better from the left and should be on that side of the graphic.

While Cruyff's favorite side was also left, I think he pulled strings from everywhere and I'd rather have him on the right here.

I also think him being on the left gets in Nedved's way a lot, so I'd avoid that overlap too. Dont see any such worries with Becks.

I'd ignore the formation graphic there, it's probably more like a 4411 with Cruyff moving all over the place and Riva running the channels and being the main striker.

Still, if any player is placed the best to win the game here, I think that it's Rivera — 4-4-2 has a slight issue with players that drift in-between the lines, especially since both center backs and both midfielders already have direct opponents. And Baresi is always due a superhuman performance to keep even the greatest ever attackers in check

I think the problem Rivera is going to have here is that he'll be too far from goal, with not enough pace ahead of him to make that killer pass.

Our team is set up to play a high line with the high press, attempting to suffocate the play high up the field and set the tempo for the game. There isn't an attacker on your team that should give Rio/Stam a problem for pace.

Finally although I like the midfield set up in the 352 it does cause the issue of a lack of threat down the wings, especially here against wide pairings that will have both parts working hard in defence. When you've got Gullit and Kocsis you want to make use of their ariel potency which is a key facet of their game. Sure they are still top players without it, but especially in Kocsis place there's lots of players you'd take before him if he's not going to have the wide crosses service he'd want.

 

[Synco]

I think the problem Rivera is going to have here is that he'll be too far from goal, with not enough pace ahead of him to make that killer pass.

(...) There isn't an attacker on your team that should give Rio/Stam a problem for pace.

Gullit was rapid as feck. Not that this means your defenders can't defend him, but lack of extraordinary pace won't be the problem for him.

 

[P-Nut]

Gullit was rapid as feck. Not that this means your defenders can't defend him, but lack of extraordinary pace won't be the problem for him.

He was mobile sure, but there's no way in hell you'd class him as a speedster and someone that's going to cause issues with his pace on the break.

 

[harms]

The second point is that our team has absolutely insane energy levels which will be on the display for the whole 90 minutes. Pretty much every single player can do that in the team while I can't imagine having a better pair of CB's then Stam/Ferdinand to deal with Gullit/Kocsis. Don't agree it is perfect for harms in the attack as I would definitely prefer some more mobile striker upfront then Kocsis to be picked up the rest of the team/Rivera. If we are talking about Romario, Muller or those types of forwards then it is a different thing.

That's where you're wrong, simply because you haven't seen enough of Kocsis, I assume.

It's not an ideal compilation, but it shows a bit of his movements in the beginning. He was very, very mobile and often pulled out wide (making crosses himself), and dropping deeper.

I think the problem Rivera is going to have here is that he'll be too far from goal, with not enough pace ahead of him to make that killer pass.

I really don't see how Rivera in his best position would be too far from goal. And there's more than enough pace up front with Gullit and Kocsis.

Midfield makes use of Kantes stupid high engine and Suarez play making ability without taking away from Cruyff running the game, whilst the numbers battle is aided from having 2 hard working wingers who can come inside when needed, but if they choose to stay wide are just as devastating.

Here's why you needed a real holder and not Kante, imo. That's where even Fergie got it wrong, when we were constantly found out in Europe despite playing 4 hardworking world-class midfielders in the middle (Giggs & Beckham, Keane as a defensive b2b and Scholes as a playmaking/attacking b2b). It's not a surprise that we became more consistent in Europe when we've introduced Carrick, who individually wasn't as good as Keane.

Our team is set up to play a high line with the high press, attempting to suffocate the play high up the field and set the tempo for the game. There isn't an attacker on your team that should give Rio/Stam a problem for pace.

Again, I'm not sure if this is a right approach, since I have:

1. Incredible dribblers through the middle — Bozsik and Rivera specifically
2. Highly technical defenders in Baresi, C. Alberto, Chumpitaz — and even the likes of Branco and Campbell were very good on the ball, plus we have van der Sar, who acts as an additional ball-playing defender
3. Gullit and Kocsis up front, who can act as a long ball receivers — and I'm not talking about them winning the air in the box against Rio/Stam (which they can, but it's not going to be easy), I'm talking about them dropping slightly deeper and getting at the end of long balls from VDS, Chumpitaz and Baresi.

 

[harms]

Gullit was rapid as feck. Not that this means your defenders can't defend him, but lack of extraordinary pace won't be the problem for him.

This.

He was mobile sure, but there's no way in hell you'd class him as a speedster and someone that's going to cause issues with his pace on the break.

Have you even see him play?

 

[harms]

Overall, I think that while they have a fantastic team (quite possibly better individually than mine), some of their tactical choices — lack of a holding midfielder, high press against a team that's brilliantly equipped to deal with it, can decide the game in my favour.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

lack of a holding midfielder

Although they haven't named him, it's quite clearly a Sacchi setup remake.

Would you say Suarez Kante is very different to Ancelotti Rijkaard? Rijkaard was certainly not a pure holder in that team. Defensive B2B like Kante. Suarez and Ancelotti probably very similar stylistically as well.

With everyone pressing, I think the holder is not a necessity (not the first time I have put this view of course)

 

[P-Nut]

That's where you're wrong, simply because you haven't seen enough of Kocsis, I assume.

It's not an ideal compilation, but it shows a bit of his movements in the beginning. He was very, very mobile and often pulled out wide (making crosses himself), and dropping deeper.


I really don't see how Rivera in his best position would be too far from goal. And there's more than enough pace up front with Gullit and Kocsis.


Here's why you needed a real holder and not Kante, imo. That's where even Fergie got it wrong, when we were constantly found out in Europe despite playing 4 hardworking world-class midfielders in the middle (Giggs & Beckham, Keane as a defensive b2b and Scholes as a playmaking/attacking b2b). It's not a surprise that we became more consistent in Europe when we've introduced Carrick, who individually wasn't as good as Keane.




Again, I'm not sure if this is a right approach, since I have:

1. Incredible dribblers through the middle — Bozsik and Rivera specifically
2. Highly technical defenders in Baresi, C. Alberto, Chumpitaz — and even the likes of Branco and Campbell were very good on the ball, plus we have van der Sar, who acts as an additional ball-playing defender
3. Gullit and Kocsis up front, who can act as a long ball receivers — and I'm not talking about them winning the air in the box against Rio/Stam (which they can, but it's not going to be easy), I'm talking about them dropping slightly deeper and getting at the end of long balls from VDS, Chumpitaz and Baresi.

Kocsis I've watched quite a bit of, due to facing him god knows how many times on here

Again it isn't me saying he can't do it, more that you are losing one of his main strengths. Different class of player obviously, but it would be like picking Drogba and not having a wide threat, sure he has other facets to his game, but you're losing one of their biggest strengths.

Rivera is too far from goal due to the high press, Jam probably put it better than me, but the game would be played at our pace pressing high and in order to get around that players would have to be closer together which in turn means deeper and further from goal.

The key to beating a pressing machine is always the counter attack and the pace on it.

Gullit I probably explained wrong, it's the in behind ball that I wouldn't be worried about. Him picking the ball up and running St people sure, (but the defenders match up well for that)

 

[Raees]

Not sure about the balance of Peanuts right wing .. need an overlapping right back there and lack of natural holder plays into hands of Rivera and Gullit.

 

[Moby]

That's where even Fergie got it wrong, when we were constantly found out in Europe despite playing 4 hardworking world-class midfielders in the middle (Giggs & Beckham, Keane as a defensive b2b and Scholes as a playmaking/attacking b2b). It's not a surprise that we became more consistent in Europe when we've introduced Carrick, who individually wasn't as good as Keane.

I think that bit is a bit overblown, to be honest. I mean from a midfield point of view solely. First of all United in the 90s was still a team of youngsters maturing and entering their primes. Secondly, during the mid 00s it was our defense which was a huge factor in terms of taking us far in Europe, having Rio, Vidic, Evra, VDS was a massive insurance policy as compared to our 90s team where Stam never really had a partner as strong as Rio or Vida. We also didnt have attackers as good as Ronaldo or Rooney, as good as Cole and Yorke were the former at their peaks were on another level. Overall for me the quality in the mid-00s team with the likes of Giggs and Scholes being vastly more experienced was just at a higher level as compared to the 90s team, and that is what showed more than any kind of tactical revolution that happened at the club. Carrick was actually criticised massively for his European performances and absolutely shat the bed in 09.

And lastly, despite all of the above, we were still pretty consistent in Europe. From 97-99 we reached the semis, then the quarters and then won it in 99. Should have won it in 97 as well. Overall for me that United era shouldn't be viewed as some kind of failure of the 4-4-2.

 

[harms]

Although they haven't named him, it's quite clearly a Sacchi setup remake.

Would you say Suarez Kante is very different to Ancelotti Rijkaard? Rijkaard was certainly not a pure holder in that team. Defensive B2B like Kante. Suarez and Ancelotti probably very similar stylistically as well.

With everyone pressing, I think the holder is not a necessity (not the first time I have put this view of course)

Rijkaard was not a pure holder, but he could act as a holder when Ancelotti ran forward (or even as a center back if needed). Kanté simply doesn't have it in him, his best always came with a holding midfielder next to him, be it Drinkwater or Matic.

In a pressing-tactic you have do without a holder... but if you do a pressing tactics against elite dribblers like Rivera, Bozsik and Gullit, you're signing your own death sentence.

Bozsik's dribbling:

Hopefully I don't need to add compilations of Gullit's or Rivera's dribbling as well? Although if Gullit isn't pacy...

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Rijkaard was not a pure holder, but he could act as a holder when Ancelotti ran forward (or even as a center back if needed). Kanté simply doesn't have it in him, his best always came with a holding midfielder next to him, be it Drinkwater or Matic.

Yea that is a fair point.

 

[harms]

And lastly, despite all of the above, we were still pretty consistent in Europe. From 97-99 we reached the semis, then the quarters and then won it in 99. Should have won it in 97 as well. Overall for me that United era shouldn't be viewed as some kind of failure of the 4-4-2.

Well, it's more about the fact that we probably should've won it at least twice with that team, and we didn't A perspective of a spoiled fan.

 

[Physiocrat]

Depends on a midfield set up. Kante is all about running and not about holding and Suarez, while positionally disciplined, isn’t well equipped to stop an all-time great trequartista. If you have, say, Desailly or Voronin in a 4-2-3-1, then it deals with such issue better. Also, most 4-2-3-1 consist of a holder-b2b-playmaker, while here we have a b2b (although a defensive one) and a playmaker with a free-roaming Cruyff ahead of them.

That makes sense.

I'm not though a fan of C Alberto at RWB. I watched the entire compilation video. He looks very press resistant and a good long passer with good positional sense. He didn't get that far forward that often or cross that much which is what you would want with Gullit and Kocsis up front. Now you could say C Alberto has the tools to be a more attacking RB but he certainly doesn't show it in 1970. I would best describe C Alberto as a balanced full-back who would do his best work with a winger or wide-midfielder ahead of him. For this reason I am surprised you didn't have Gullit at right CF to drift wide to provider more on the right-wing.

 

[Moby]

Well, it's more about the fact that we probably should've won it at least twice with that team, and we didn't A perspective of a spoiled fan.

We should have won at least twice in the mid-00s as well, it's the Champions League and a lot of great teams have fallen short at the end. If the 4-4-2 was so vulnerable against a 3 man midfield by default, there should have been no way for us to beat one of the best 3-man midfields ever assembled in Zidane, Davids and Deschamps.

For me it always comes down to the right kind of wingers, and I couldn't possibly upgrade on the ones on show here. Given they are facing a narrow formation, they should be able to put in considerable effort in midfield here. It actually came down to that for me, with the presence of Cruyff, and the two super engines on the flanks (especially Nedved, he will be kicking ass in this match), I saw them being able to overload the middle of the park and drag players around a lot. With Cruyff being the cerebral force with all those dynamic players around him willing to work their socks off while also being technically superb, it would be something that actually gives them that edge to get a result here. Kante is a great fit for this formation (doesnt even need to be mentioned given he won the league with fecking Leicester playing in the same setup), so if anyone in that midfield should be replaced for a more holding-mid presence it would be Suarez. Kante-Suarez is a good Keane-Scholes impersonation but that's where Fergie ditched that duo in big games and went with Butt. So in this case I would absolutely keep Kante in there.

 

[Physiocrat]

We should have won at least twice in the mid-00s as well, it's the Champions League and a lot of great teams have fallen short at the end. If the 4-4-2 was so vulnerable against a 3 man midfield by default, there should have been no way for us to beat one of the best 3-man midfields ever assembled in Zidane, Davids and Deschamps.

For me it always comes down to the right kind of wingers, and I couldn't possibly upgrade on the ones on show here. Given they are facing a narrow formation, they should be able to put in considerable effort in midfield here. It actually came down to that for me, with the presence of Cruyff, and the two super engines on the flanks (especially Nedved, he will be kicking ass in this match), I saw them being able to overload the middle of the park and drag players around a lot. With Cruyff being the cerebral force with all those dynamic players around him willing to work their socks off while also being technically superb, it would be something that actually gives them that edge to get a result here. Kante is a great fit for this formation (doesnt even need to be mentioned given he won the league with fecking Leicester playing in the same setup), so if anyone in that midfield should be replaced for a more holding-mid presence it would be Suarez. Kante-Suarez is a good Keane-Scholes impersonation but that's where Fergie ditched that duo in big games and went with Butt. So in this case I would absolutely keep Kante in there.

In the away game at the San Siro in '99 Butt started alongside Keane. So Harms point of needing a holder in a 442 seems to hold however Cruyff and Yorke are completely different when it comes to work rate off the ball. I think if you have a 10 or second-striker who does little work off the ball, but with a hardworking one I don't think a DM in a 442 or 4231 is as necessary (although this is hitting our debating territory in the opening game)

 

[Moby]

In the away game at the San Siro in '99 Butt started alongside Keane. So Harms point of needing a holder in a 442 seems to hold however Cruyff and Yorke are completely different when it comes to work rate off the ball. I think if you have a 10 or second-striker who does little work off the ball, but with a hardworking one I don't think a DM in a 442 or 4231 is as necessary (although this is hitting our debating territory in the opening game)

Yeah I mentioned the same. If a holding mid is added to that team it would be at the expense of Suarez. But I think Suarez is getting a bit underrated in terms of workrate, he was pretty solid defensively himself to say the least. It's fine for me as it is. I think it could have been relatively more exposed vs. a 4-2-3-1 especially if the fullbacks were ones who contributed on the ball, but facing a narrow formation here gives them just enough relief.

 

[Synco]

He was mobile sure, but there's no way in hell you'd class him as a speedster and someone that's going to cause issues with his pace on the break.

Gullit I probably explained wrong, it's the in behind ball that I wouldn't be worried about. Him picking the ball up and running St people sure, (but the defenders match up well for that)

Just one example, at 4:34 there's Gullit totally outpacing Brehme after a through ball on the wing:
.
So imo, the through ball to him is indeed one of the main threats from harms' side. But as I said, your defense looks like a great fit for these kinds of situations too.

(I think that video also illustrates well why Gullit can easily play as a winger, crosses and everything, which was a point of contention in the last match.)

 

[Jim Beam]

Not sure about the balance of Peanuts right wing .. need an overlapping right back there and lack of natural holder plays into hands of Rivera and Gullit.

Like Gary Neville? Vogts was more than a solid overlapper. I made the same mistake once here when judging him, but was rightly corrected. Certainly one of the last in this team I would change.

but if you do a pressing tactics against elite dribblers like Rivera, Bozsik and Gullit, you're signing your own death sentence.

Quite the opposite. I would be actually much more worried if the likes of Kocsis, Gullit, Bozsik or Carlos Alberto are playing in a more possession-based and dominating team which is how they played all their life. Here they will be pinned back and forced to play on the counter. There is simply no other way the game will be played considering our "go for the kill" approach/high line tactic. And I think you can cause some problems on the counter (mostly with Gullit), but certainly not enough to win the game considering what problems you will have on the other end.
Kocsis was mobile, but I wouldn't ever consider him the exact type of striker you would need here and definitely see him contained by Rio and Stam. They just match him very well. And Gullit won't win you this one on his own.

Anyway, won't go 2 against 1, this is my last.

 

[harms]

Quite the opposite. I would be actually much more worried if the likes of Kocsis, Gullit, Bozsik or Carlos Alberto are playing in a more possession-based and dominating team which is how they played all their life. Here they will be pinned back and forced to play on the counter.

That's the thing. Pressing works very well... until it doesn't. When you have elite dribblers like Bozsik and Rivera, they constantly break opposition's pressing. And the downside of pressing is that if it doesn't work, it leaves huge, huge gaps in behind.

This is how it happens when one side tries to press the hell out of the opposition, but the other side has dribblers that can beat their opponent one-on-one and create free space:

 

[Raees]

@Jim Beam Vogts is technically superior to a Neville but his crossing isn’t as good as a Neville and he was more of a possession footballer who would suit an out and out winger .. perhaps a Figo ahead of him.

It’s still a functional flank, just not an optimal one for an all time level game.

 

[Jim Beam]

@Jim Beam Vogts is technically superior to a Neville but his crossing isn’t as good as a Neville and he was more of a possession footballer who would suit an out and out winger .. perhaps a Figo ahead of him.

It’s still a functional flank, just not an optimal one for an all time level game.

How about Tassotti then?

This is how it happens when one side tries to press the hell out of the opposition, but the other side has dribblers that can beat their opponent one-on-one and create free space:

l mean, and if it works, the opponent can't get out of its box as seen so many times even when the team has great technical ability. That Barca team was mostly punished or destroyed with quick, direct, devastating counters or pace/power which is not the same you are having here imo (not to mention that Bayern team, for example, was also brilliant in their own pressing which you also lack). Tbf, I can't see any hammering in this game (have a feeling I have a clear upper hand same as you naturally), but I would be more than happy for you to admit that you will be pushed back and then let people decide who has more chance in this one.

While we are putting links I quite like this one. Not saying your team is the same as this Real side btw.

 

[harms]

l mean, and if it works, the opponent can't get out of its box as seen so many times even when the team has great technical ability. That Barca team was mostly punished or destroyed with quick, direct, devastating counters or pace/power which is not the same you are having here imo (not to mention that Bayern team, for example, was also brilliant in their own pressing which you also lack).

You're thinking about the different game, check what game I'm actually referencing here

Yeah, if it works, it works. But I have pretty much a perfect counter-pressing set up, including van der Sar at the very back.