Covid tracing phone apps: UK Germany Ireland etc

[Grinner]

I was thinking this was worth separating from the mega thread.

Start with a bit of info and see how we go.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-covid-19-tracking-app-contact-tracing

So what do you know about it? Can we trust them with the data?

"It’s highly unlikely the Covid-19 virus is going to go away," says Jonathan Van-Tam, England’s deputy chief medical officer. "Testing and contact tracing is going to have to become part of our daily lives in the future."

That quote tells me it's here to stay.

 

[sun_tzu]

I was thinking this was worth separating from the mega thread.

Start with a bit of info and see how we go.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-covid-19-tracking-app-contact-tracing

So what do you know about it? Can we trust them with the data?

"It’s highly unlikely the Covid-19 virus is going to go away," says Jonathan Van-Tam, England’s deputy chief medical officer. "Testing and contact tracing is going to have to become part of our daily lives in the future."

That quote tells me it's here to stay.

The NHS already has loads of data on people and apps etc so I cant see how it shold be any different to trust the NHS with this data
https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/nhs-services/the-nhs-app/privacy/

he government and NHS have been keen to stress that the app doesn’t collect user data that could identify an individual. Location data is not collected as GPS technology is not used and the app does not ask for a user’s name or other personal information. This extra information will be required if a person reports they have symptoms as they will need to be tested for coronavirus.

There are a few pieces of information the app does collect. When you first download and use the app you will be asked to enter the first half of your postcode. Officials say this is to allow the NHS to track the spread of coronavirus.

If its stops hundreds of thousands of deaths and allows people to go back to work / school it seems a reasonable trade off to me but there will be a range of opinions on that

How you ensure somebody does not change the app in the future and take more data / sell data etc comes down to the safeguards and laws put around it and that comes down to trust which is two areas I think political parties on all sides fall down (competence in drafting the safeguards and trust to stick to them) so there will I'm sure be lots of people who don't download it outside the normal 5G QANON tin foil had brigade

I'll download it though when it comes available - I suspect over 50% of the population will which in its self would indicate most people would like me view the data given as an acceptable trade off for the potential to save lives and get back to some semblance of normal / a new normal

One thing I did notice it it seems to rely on bluetooth and I dont know about most people but generally if im not specifically connecting to a devise I turn my bluetooth off to conserve battery - which I guess would render the app useless?

 

[jojojo]

From a personal perspective, I'd prefer them to be using the decentralised (Google/Apple) core technologies. I know (because I know some of the NHS digital/X techies) that their hearts are in the right place, but I also know that sometimes blinds them to the risks.

Feature creep (and deliberate subversion) in the form of creating individualised movement profiles, and also in the well intentioned form of, "well now it's there, maybe we can apply it to other infectious diseases," - is an obvious risk. Telling a sexual partner "you might have met someone with HIV or syphilis", is one thing - telling your parents or your workmates is something else!

The flip side is that without centralisation it's harder to stop false alarms - whether from people with health anxieties or drunks who think it's hilarious.

I'm also bothered by the idea that most of the apps are country based. Tackling travel restrictions and reducing the risks of reopening borders would have been good to see (and for Ireland pretty fundamental). But it looks like that's not going to happen. According to the FT, even within the EU there may not be a common app or even a common approach.
https://www.ft.com/content/10f87eb3-87f9-46ea-88ab-8706adefe72d

 

[balaks]

I think it's a good idea and I welcome it if it helps monitor and stop the virus spread. Honestly couldn't give a toss what information it shares as I know for a fact the Government know everything about us anyway so it makes absolutely no difference to me.

 

[jojojo]

One thing I did notice it it seems to rely on bluetooth and I dont know about most people but generally if im not specifically connecting to a devise I turn my bluetooth off to conserve battery - which I guess would render the app useless?

Yes, same here. I have one phone that seems happy to have Bluetooth left on, and another (the more modern, better spec one!) whose battery life collapses when Bluetooth is on.

They say they're going for an app model that reduces Bluetooth power consumption, but I must admit I'm having trouble visualising that working. I suspect we won't know the answer until millions of us download it and start moaning. Though it would be nice to think the field trials will give enough warning (if they choose to release any "bad news" parts of the results of course).

 

[Tony Babangida]

We have this in Australia. Works by monitoring Bluetooth connections that your phone makes, doesn’t collect any location data. If you test positive you then upload your data and give permission for the government to access it. The data is deleted every 2 weeks and by law can’t be used for any purpose other than contact tracing.

I am very weary about government surveillance, particularly with facial recognition becoming so easy now. But the Australian app seems to be designed with privacy in mind. There will of course be a section of people that will never trust the government given their poor record on privacy. I would hope those people see how important this app could be, but I doubt it.

The only way we can get back towards normality is massive amounts of testing, contact tracing, and isolation of positive cases. If the app makes that possible then I hope everyone uses it until we have a vaccine.

 

[arnie_ni]

Honestly im one that doesnt care about all this kind of thing. I know people have reservations about it even from reading the cashless society thread, but it just doesnt bother me

 

[EwanI Ted]

The idea of the app is great, but a centralised database held by the UK Gov, that makes it a hard sell for me. The Government has a pretty poor record on privacy. It's probably a civic duty to be honest, since we need a majority of the UK to be using this to be effective, but I really wish they'd gone with a better methodology.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

We started with the development a couple of weeks ago in the Netherlands, potential apps suggested by the government were checked by experts and tech students and of course they found a shiteload of potential privacy breaches. Generally speaking 'the government' and 'big IT projects' have been a rather tragic combination as well, so there's only a minority of people over here willing to use such an app voluntarily. The discussion has faded away over the last week or so but they're still 'developping' some kind of app.

This has been a worldwide problem as far as I understand. Singapore has an app and it's a country where you expect it to work, yet a little less than 20% of the population is using it and they're only able to trace 4% of the situations where people meet. Australia is at 12% of its people using an app according to a newspaper article I just read, Israel apparently has an app called 'Hamagan' which is used by a little less than 25% of the people over there. I've seen estimates of needing like 55-60% of a population as users to get something significant out of it.

So basically unless the mood changes and people start magically using these apps voluntarily, the only solution is that governments will actually force their citizens to use an app which can probably not guarantee their privacy and data being protected. This is not a scary idea at all.

From what I understand in South-Korea they weren't even using an app, they just use direct data from people like credit card transactions, GPS-data and also footage from video-surveillance which sounds awfully close to something you'd expect to happen in a country like China. So yeah good luck with all of this.

 

[Buster15]

The idea of the app is great, but a centralised database held by the UK Gov, that makes it a hard sell for me. The Government has a pretty poor record on privacy. It's probably a civic duty to be honest, since we need a majority of the UK to be using this to be effective, but I really wish they'd gone with a better methodology.

Very much my view as well.
I am in two minds.
1. I understand the importance of this as part of the fight against the Corona Virus in order to identify potential risks.
2. Can we really trust the government with all this data on who and how each of us are interacting with.

 

[elmo]

Why aren't they just using your cell signals to just trace people within the vicinity of those that tested positive?

You'll expect anyone using a fecking app to have a cellphone with cellular data access anyway.

 

[sun_tzu]

Why aren't they just using your cell signals to just trace people within the vicinity of those that tested positive?

You'll expect anyone using a fecking app to have a cellphone with cellular data access anyway.

I believe its because that does not give enough accuracy as to how close for how long people have been together as a cell tower covers a significant area

 

[rednotled]

Apart from the privacy concerns already expressed here, this report concludes that the app will not work
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/05/uk_coronavirus_app/

sigh

 

[balaks]

Apart from the privacy concerns already expressed here, this report concludes that the app will not work
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/05/uk_coronavirus_app/

sigh

Let's give it a chance before writing it off on it's first full day of testing.

 

[jojojo]

Why aren't they just using your cell signals to just trace people within the vicinity of those that tested positive?

You'll expect anyone using a fecking app to have a cellphone with cellular data access anyway.

We'd all be told to isolate continually. Cell tower areas can be quite small (every 100m or so in a city centre maybe) or big (miles wide) and triangulation isn't a simple process. So you would literally get alerts for anyone within hundreds of metres of you - whereas the crucial alerts are about people within 5 metres.

GPS locations are much more accurate, but the privacy/security issues are even bigger. Bluetooth is a kind of compromise, in that it reduces the chances of an individual being tracked (by government or by a hacker) but the central database idea seems to put those risks back again.

 

[macheda14]

Feature creep (and deliberate subversion) in the form of creating individualised movement profiles, and also in the well intentioned form of, "well now it's there, maybe we can apply it to other infectious diseases," - is an obvious risk. Telling a sexual partner "you might have met someone with HIV or syphilis", is one thing - telling your parents or your workmates is something else!

This would never happen, especially with how they're actually transmitted. Unless it links to the accelerometer in your phone.

 

[sparx99]

The Govt already have so much information on all of us that I don’t see any further risk in this app. The privacy debate sailed years ago.

Many of us have willingly installed listening devices in our homes which we know can take our data and then push ads at us. If we are willing to sacrifice privacy so that I can ask what the weather is, turn my lights off or set a cooking timer then I think most of us should do it to allow a lockdown to end.

 

[711]

Don't phone companies know who owns a phone and where that phone's been anyway, and the police can apply for that data, or have I been watching some shit crime drama on telly or something?

 

[sparx99]

Btw - it’s almost certain that GCHQ has access to Automatic Number Plate Recognition, cctv, gps data, cell phone towers. If you are of interest to a modern govt then you are trackable.

 

[jojojo]

Let's give it a chance before writing it off on it's first full day of testing.

If the article is accurate about Bluetooth behaviour on the newer phones, that's a pretty disastrous flaw they're describing.

The more general security/privacy issue is different. For me, I'll almost certainly download/use it - but I will delete it (and reset my phone) once I'm vaccinated/test positive for antibodies or if the security/privacy issues get worse (as tends to happen with complex projects and major government databases.

I do suspect though we will see a move from voluntary to de-facto compulsory (can't use public transport, can't go in that building, can't etc etc) sooner rather than later if it does work as hoped.

 

[jojojo]

This would never happen, especially with how they're actually transmitted. Unless it links to the accelerometer in your phone.

Sorry, I meant human (self reported) contact tracing for sexual partners is one thing, a phone is something else. But similar rules apply to quite a few diseases, some things are best kept private, except with those people unfortunate enough to have shared a meal with you that led to food poisoning.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Can we trust them with the data?

 

[EwanI Ted]

Apart from the privacy concerns already expressed here, this report concludes that the app will not work
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/05/uk_coronavirus_app/

sigh

FFS. That is beyond belief.

 

[Grinner]

Don't phone companies know who owns a phone and where that phone's been anyway, and the police can apply for that data, or have I been watching some shit crime drama on telly or something?

The murder trial that I sat on as a jurist used cellphone tower data to prove that the killer lied about her movements. It was damning stuff.

 

[EwanI Ted]

Btw - it’s almost certain that GCHQ has access to Automatic Number Plate Recognition, cctv, gps data, cell phone towers. If you are of interest to a modern govt then you are trackable.

That's targeted surveillance though. This is mass surveillance, which is a different set of issues.

 

[711]

The murder trial that I sat on as a jurist used cellphone tower data to prove that the killer lied about her movements. It was damning stuff.

Right. I've never been called but I've known a couple of people who were upset by the trials they had go through. My mate cocked it though, he had a bunch of fighting scousers and found them not guilty, I'd have done em without even getting out of bed.

 

[jojojo]

One for the techies:

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First impressions from techie reviewers is that the NHS have found a way to keep the iPhones' bluetooth awake despite the iPhone's normal behaviour. Which is better than some sceptics had suggested..

First reports from the IoW say that older (2 years+) android phones are rejecting the app as not compatible and some newer phones are suffering from the (anticipated) battery draining effect. We shall see.

 

[EwanI Ted]

One for the techies:

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First impressions from techie reviewers is that the NHS have found a way to keep the iPhones' bluetooth awake despite the iPhone's normal behaviour. Which is better than some sceptics had suggested..

First reports from the IoW say that older (2 years+) android phones are rejecting the app as not compatible and some newer phones are suffering from the (anticipated) battery draining effect. We shall see.

Just read a deep dive on the app here.

https://reincubate.com/blog/staying-alive-covid-19-background-tracing/

They’ve partially figured a workaround but it’s not 100% and it’s done in a way that would usually fall foul of Apples rules. It can still fail in circumstances where two locked, backgrounded iOS devices come together for the first time for example. Plus while the report doesn’t mention it, you have to wonder about the battery implications of their method, which basically finds ways to refuse to let the app sleep properly.

Reading through the bug reports on github, their approach is actually pretty creditable, but given that the Apple-Google app works 100% of the time and this doesn’t, I still fail to see why the government are trying this route.

Also saw this, the government not ruling out heading over to the Apple google app.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ontact-tracing-app-for-apple-and-google-model

 

[Kag]

Given that our government ministers (George Eustice, specifically) can’t remotely articulate how this app works, this is going to fall flat on its face.

It’s anecdotal, but most people I’ve spoken to about this have said they’re not going to bother. Personally, I’m of the belief that reams of my personal information is probably here, there and everywhere anyway, so I don’t really share the same concerns.

 

[Flying high]

Given our governments dodgy connections and cambridge analytica links, I will be vary wary of using any app they develop.

 

[Xeno]

The murder trial that I sat on as a jurist used cellphone tower data to prove that the killer lied about her movements. It was damning stuff.

Omg make a thread (if you can).

 

[jojojo]

Just read a deep dive on the app here.

https://reincubate.com/blog/staying-alive-covid-19-background-tracing/

They’ve partially figured a workaround but it’s not 100% and it’s done in a way that would usually fall foul of Apples rules. It can still fail in circumstances where two locked, backgrounded iOS devices come together for the first time for example. Plus while the report doesn’t mention it, you have to wonder about the battery implications of their method, which basically finds ways to refuse to let the app sleep properly.

Reading through the bug reports on github, their approach is actually pretty creditable, but given that the Apple-Google app works 100% of the time and this doesn’t, I still fail to see why the government are trying this route.

Also saw this, the government not ruling out heading over to the Apple google app.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ontact-tracing-app-for-apple-and-google-model

That reincubate.com article is very helpful.

I have a lot of doubts about how it'll work in practice, for example, across different Android and iPhone generations. I'm particularly concerned as it will only really become useful after the new infections figure falls. However, once headline daily deaths start falling, that will also be when people will be least forgiving of any downsides (like battery drain or continual permission/restart requests)

On privacy/security I'm actually quite pleased by what I've seen so far from the reviewers. I still have a lot of misgivings though, both ones about the technical viability of the app without using the new Android/iPhone standards, and ones about its hackability.

If they can switch to a standard that might allow an international app, and uses standard Android/iPhone methods rather than workarounds, that would be better. So it is nice to see that they're still looking at that.

 

[VeevaVee]

I don't know enough to make proper judgement, but word is it was a contract given to a company friendly with the Tories, with no tender, for a nice round sum, that has previous for doing dodgy shit with data (is that Palantir or CA?). From what I gather they will own the data and will be able to use it/sell it for whatever they want.

I know enough that I don't fancy installing it.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Just found out I’ll be working on the implementation of it where I live (I’m a PM within NHS Scotland).

I’ve not heard anything about it yet, but I’ve seen a lot of links to Cambridge Analytica being posted on Facebook.

My spider sense is tingling.

Although it might be the wine coursing through my veins right now.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

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[Fully Fledged]

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If Dominic Cummings has something to do with this then I want nothing to do with it.

 

[arnie_ni]

Omg make a thread (if you can).

Did you not know this?

Isnt this sort of thing common knowledge?

If your committing a crime leave your phone at home and get someone to make a few calls for you

 

[0le]

Did you not know this?

Isnt this sort of thing common knowledge?

If your committing a crime leave your phone at home and get someone to make a few calls for you

It is common knowledge. I suspect a lot of crimes are not planned however, and so things like using a phone to incriminate someone are possible.

 

[P-Ro]

The murder trial that I sat on as a jurist used cellphone tower data to prove that the killer lied about her movements. It was damning stuff.

Omg make a thread (if you can).

The most thread worthy thing about the trial was @Grinner 's fancy jacket.

 

[Xeno]

Did you not know this?

Isnt this sort of thing common knowledge?

If your committing a crime leave your phone at home and get someone to make a few calls for you

Yes of course I’m aware haha, I meant a thread about the trial!