Cricket World Cup/ICC Champions Trophy Draft - R1 Mani/anant vs Skills/Ijazz17

[2mufc0]

This draft is based on player performances in ICC World Cups and Champions Trophy only, only performances in these tournaments count, performances outside these tournaments carry no weight. Please vote according to this criteria.


TEAM MANI/ANANT

1.M.Hayden
2.R.Raja
3.G.Gambhir
4.K.Pietersen
5.A.Symonds
6.Ms.Dhoni-(wk)-(C)
7.A.Mathews
8.R.Harper
9.Umar Gul/
10.C.Ambrose
11.D.Steyn

VS

TEAM SKILLS/IJAZZ17

1. Rohit Sharma
2. Hashim Amla
3. Aravinda De Silva
4. AB De Villiers
5. Clive Lloyd
6. Glenn Maxwell
7. Kapil Dev
8. Mitchell Starc
9. Hasan Ali
10. Trent Boult
11. Saeed Ajmal

Mani/anant writeup

1.M.Hayden
2.R.Raja
3.G.Gambhir
4.K.Pietersen
5.A.Symonds
6.Ms.Dhoni-(wk)-(C)
7.A.Mathews
8.R.Harper
9.Umar Gul/
10.C.Ambrose
11.D.Steyn

12.JP Duminy-SUB


BATTING:

Opening Combo- M.Hayden & Rameez Raja(Won 3 world cups between them)

Arguably we have the best opening combo in the draft, M.Hayden's flamboyant style perfectly matches with Rameez Raja's cool technique, both can see through the new ball with some lusty batting without loosing early wickets and set the tone for batsmen to come.
Hayden, was one half of the most successful opening partnership, in terms of runs score, most 50+ and 100+ partnerships in ICC tournaments ever.
Rameez Raja isbloody good batsman in ICC tournaments. Five 50+ (including 3 centuries) scores in just 16 innings, is a fantastic return especially when one considers that most of these innings came in Australia, which is a tough place to bat in especially for someone from the subcontinent. Also, he averaged nearly 55 in ICC tournaments! Great, isn't it?

Middle Order -G.Gambhir/K.Pietersen/A.Symonds

G.Gambhir at three is a perfect one down batsmen who can keep score ticking and can balance it out in case of early wickets, who is also reliable for those long innings and best man for the transaction job to the middle innings.His 97 in WC 2001 was instrumental winning the World Cup for India which also an highest run chase in the World Cup.
It is easy to forget all his other contributions in ICC tournaments. A consistently great player, who scored 50+ runs in 5 of his 11 innings, Gauti brings into side aggression and a head that can handle all the pressure in the world

Kevin Pietersen & A.Symonds
Best attacking middle order batsmen any team would love to have in their team, they are aggressive and quick running between wickets should keep pressure on bowling team in the middle overs and can go big when required.
In KP, we have a player who can be our Cantona. A player for the biggest occassions- the World Cups! A player who scored a whoopping 7 50+ scores in just 16 innings.
Andrew Symonds is a serial winner. A player who was great with the bat and fantastic with the ball. 6 50+ scores in 19 innings and 3 MoTM awards to go with it

LMO- MS Dhoni(C)& A.Mathews:

In MS Dhoni,We've the best finisher in the draft,whose temperament and composure under pressure is best suited for the limited over contest(Instrumental in 2011 WC final run chase) him along with A.Mathews can give us the long handle any one day unit would love to have.
A fantastic WK, a true legend of the game MS Dhoni can be described as the true team player. Never afraid to shy away from responsibility, MSD is the player everyone needs not only because of his talent, but his willingness to sacrifice himself for the team. And did we mention that he's also captaining us?
One of the finest allrounders of his generation, Angelo Mathews has been one of the best players to have come out from the tiny island of Sri Lanka. A hard hitting batsman and a very decent bowler, Angelo Mathews provides the team much needed balance


BOWLING:

Ambrose & Steyn will be sharing our new ball attack, both have persistence with their line and length which makes it difficult for batsmen to get away,Ambrose especially with his nagging line around the off stump corridor which puts batsmen mind in the state of uncertainty, at other Steyn would support Ambrose with his swing bowling with good pace gives us the good chance for early wickets.

Ambrose is the bowler that no batsman would ever like to face. If you don't believe us then check out what Wisden said about him in his 1992 citation as Wisden Cricketer of the Year. It states that he had "outright pace and he generates a disconcerting, steepling bounce from fuller-length deliveries ... His height and a slender, sinewy wrist contribute greatly to the final velocity [of the ball], the wrist snapping forward at the instant of release to impart extra thrust".


Umar Gul will be our first change bowler, who had lead Pakistan bowling attack for long time also well reputed for his Yorkers at the end overs.

Roger Harper, off spinner will take of middle overs with his high arm action he gets the natural bounce that any spinner would love to get. A.Mathews and A.Symonds will be our support bowlers who are more than a part timers as they part for the respective teams.

Skills/Ijazz17 writeup

Batting

Bowling

Why team Fergie/Phelan wins?

• Explosion - We have two of the most destructive batsman ever in AB De Villiers & Glenn Maxwell in my team. De Villiers has destroyed countless attacks and holds the fastest world cup century & 150. Maxwell has obscene strike rate of 180 with an average of 60. These are key runs which become really difficult to chase. We're not even mentioning Kapil Dev here who was batting at 114 SR in an era where a score of 200 odd was game winning.
• Leadership - We have 2 World Cup winning captains in my team. Lloyd led the West Indies to both of their wins in 75 & 79, Dev is India's legendary captain for their first ever win in 1983. They both played huge roles - Lloyd scoring a key century in the 1975 final, and Dev top scoring for India as well as being a huge with the ball. Aravinda De Silva in his only ever world cup final scored a century and took 3 wickets to overcome the Australians.
• Solidarity - both our openers are among the best ODI batsmen in the world, and easily among the top 5 openers in the world. They have very solid-good records in ICC tournaments - especially Sharma who has played a big role in India's 2013 Champions Trophy win & helping them get to the final in 2017.
• Wickets - One thing we have in my team in abundance is wickets. I have the two best bowlers from the 2015 World Cup in my team - both took 22 wickets at ridiculous averages and SR. Starc was the player of the tournament in 2015, and lets not forget Hasan Ali who was the player of the tournament at the 2017 ICC Champions Trophy. Supporting them we have a great spinner in Saeed Ajmal who's ICC stats are somehow even better than his career stats & Kapil Dev who was great with the ball in the 1983 world cup. Then if we need we have De Silva to chip in at key moments.

 

[2mufc0]

Good luck @Mani @anant @Skills @Ijazz17

 

[Skills]

good luck @Mani

 

[Mani]

Good Luck @Skills and @Ijazz17

 

[NM]

Mani/Anant are a good 4th bowler short IMO

 

[Norris]

Good Luck @Skills and @Ijazz17

Thank you Mani . Good luck to you and @anant as well.

 

[anant]

Good luck @Ijazz17 and @Skills

 

[2mufc0]

Now the pleasantries are out of the way, can we have some discussion....

 

[Skills]

I don't get how @Mani / @anant are going to bowl through 50 overs. You don't want Matthews or Symonds bowling 10 of your middle overs to my middle order, and then Roger Harper isn't much of a threat with the ball. Those 20 odd overs in the middle can be very, very costly and ultimately the big difference.

In contrast Ajmal is a huge threat, and my fast bowling line up will stay fresh and provide a constant threat throughout the innings.

 

[Skills]

I'll do 2007 and 2011 if and when I can be arsed. Yes I know some of the countries I listed as minnows did well a few of the years, but most of the players selected even those years are from the traditional biguns.

I just want to use this to highlight just how great my bowling line up is. From the early world cups to 2015, the wickets have become more costlier for bowlers. Starc was the best player and took 22 wickets at an average of fecking 10 in the 2015 world cup and Boult took 22 at 17.

 

[2mufc0]

I just want to use this to highlight just how great my bowling line up is. From the early world cups to 2015, the wickets have become more costlier for bowlers. Starc was the best player and took 22 wickets at an average of fecking 10 in the 2015 world cup and Boult took 22 at 17.

Close game, but went with your team in the end because of this.

 

[The Cat]

Really close one this, Skills just edged it for me.

 

[Mani]

I don't get how @Mani / @anant are going to bowl through 50 overs. You don't want Matthews or Symonds bowling 10 of your middle overs to my middle order, and then Roger Harper isn't much of a threat with the ball. Those 20 odd overs in the middle can be very, very costly and ultimately the big difference.

In contrast Ajmal is a huge threat, and my fast bowling line up will stay fresh and provide a constant threat throughout the innings.

Harper’s has much better WC than Ajmal,he’s difficult spinner to get away especially with those height advantage and bounce he would generate out his high arm action is difficult to deal with.Economically he’s much better bowler which automatically gives us good middle over.Symonds and Mathews are more than just part timers to their respective teams
We can easily manage those 10 overs between these two.
On other side your openers are not the best in term of WC Performance is concerned and that to against quality bowling line up of Ambrose and Steyn can expose them properly.Which ideally expose your middle order to the new ball.The rebuilding exercise!

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

I've gone for Mani/anant because their batting line-up looks far more balanced to me. Their 1-3 blows Skills/Ijazz's out of the water and their 4-6 is great, with Dhoni so pivotal at 6 and Mathews bringing good ICC runs at 7. I love Skills/Ijazz's 4-5-6 too but I worry they'll be given too much to do by the relatively weaker ICC-level top order.

However the above discussion about bowling is giving me pause for further thought. I thought they were a touch light when I voted for them but the lack of a reliable fourth choice could be a more serious worry.

 

[Mani]

We got 5 WC winners in the squad,Hayden,Rameez Raja,G.Gambhir,Dhoni and A.Symonds.
Hayden the top scorer in the 2007 WC
G.Gambhir and Dhoni,backbone in 2011 run chase where no team had ever before chased the score of 272 in WC final.
A.Symonds,winner of 2007 and aggressive batsmen who can play both type of innings.
Rameez Raja winner of 1992.

 

[anant]

Uhm, Ajmal has bowled a mere 26 overs in World Cups!

 

[Skills]

Harper’s has much better WC than Ajmal,he’s difficult spinner to get away especially with those height advantage and bounce he would generate out his high arm action is difficult to deal with.Economically he’s much better bowler which automatically gives us good middle over.Symonds and Mathews are more than just part timers to their respective teams
We can easily manage those 10 overs between these two.
On other side your openers are not the best in term of WC Performance is concerned and that to against quality bowling line up of Ambrose and Steyn can expose them properly.Which ideally expose your middle order to the new ball.The rebuilding exercise!

He doesn't. Ajmal only has 3 world cup games to his name but his record is still better and his overall ICC record is better too.

In 10 ICC matches Ajmal has 17 wickets at 18.76. Roger Harper has 18 in 14 games at 27.11. Harper has an economy rate of 3.69 and Ajmal has one of 3.89.

But you also have to take context into account. Harper played between 87 and 96 where the economy rates are lower (as you can see from the batting strike rates), while Ajmal plays in a much more aggressive and run scoring era.

Also this is not just a world cup draft. Sharma has a great record overall in ICC tournaments thanks to his exploits in the champions trophy. Admittedly Hayden is the best opener in the game.

 

[Skills]

Uhm, Ajmal has bowled a mere 26 overs in World Cups!

Thankfully then this draft isn't just world cups! Harper has managed 4 more games for this criteria - well done to him.

 

[Norris]

I've gone for Mani/anant because their batting line-up looks far more balanced to me. Their 1-3 blows Skills/Ijazz's out of the water and their 4-6 is great, with Dhoni so pivotal at 6 and Mathews bringing good ICC runs at 7. I love Skills/Ijazz's 4-5-6 too but I worry they'll be given too much to do by the relatively weaker ICC-level top order.

However the above discussion about bowling is giving me pause for further thought. I thought they were a touch light when I voted for them but the lack of a reliable fourth choice could be a more serious worry.

I am not entirely sure if I am allowed to defend the team (@2mufc0 to confirm), but the idea that the Manant's top order blows ours out of the water is very laughable. Rohit Sharma made so many important contributions to India's 2015 CT run and then again in 2017. And I am not sure if you have watched Aravinda play, but he was at a different level altogether in the 1996 World Cup. Sri lanka simply would not have won the tournament if he was not in form. You can't ask for more than that from your top order.

 

[Skills]

I don't mind both AMs discussing. @Ijazz17 @anant

 

[anant]

Thankfully then this draft isn't just world cups! Harper has managed 4 more games for this criteria - well done to him.

It's not just Ajmal, Hasan Ali has 44.3 overs to his name! I mean, sure, his numbers are good, but the data sample is far too small

 

[Skills]

It's not just Ajmal, Hasan Ali has 44.3 overs to his name! I mean, sure, his numbers are good, but the data sample is far too small

He was Man of the Tournament in a ICC tournament. I'd say he's done more than most in this game just on that metric.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

I am not entirely sure if I am allowed to defend the team (@2mufc0 to confirm), but the idea that the Manant's top order blows ours out of the water is very laughable. Rohit Sharma made so many important contributions to India's 2015 CT run and then again in 2017. And I am not sure if you have watched Aravinda play, but he was at a different level altogether in the 1996 World Cup. Sri lanka simply would not have won the tournament if he was not in form. You can't ask for more than that from your top order.

Yes I was wary of using the phrase, perhaps it is hyperbolic. However I stand by the point that I'm taking Hayden, Raja and Gambhir at ICC level every time over Sharma, Amla and Aravinda. There's an inescapable gulf certainly in World Cup pedigree (Aravinda's showing in '96 excepted) and I feel for you in that Amla, despite being an absolutely fantastic player, just hasn't got the ICC bona fides of his three opponents.

 

[Mani]

He doesn't. Ajmal only has 3 world cup games to his name but his record is still better and his overall ICC record is better too.

In 10 ICC matches Ajmal has 17 wickets at 18.76. Roger Harper has 18 in 14 games at 27.11. Harper has an economy rate of 3.69 and Ajmal has one of 3.89.

But you also have to take context into account. Harper played between 87 and 96 where the economy rates are lower (as you can see from the batting strike rates), while Ajmal plays in a much more aggressive and run scoring era.

Also this is not just a world cup draft. Sharma has a great record overall in ICC tournaments thanks to his exploits in the champions trophy. Admittedly Hayden is the best opener in the game.

Going by the same context there where no CT to play with for Harper else his stats would be different.
Sharma is not the best man to deal with Ambrose or Steyn, his got those bad temperament to deal with and those gung ho approach never going to any better.

 

[Norris]

We got 5 WC winners in the squad,Hayden,Rameez Raja,G.Gambhir,Dhoni and A.Symonds.
Hayden the top scorer in the 2007 WC
G.Gambhir and Dhoni,backbone in 2011 run chase where no team had ever before chased the score of 272 in WC final.
A.Symonds,winner of 2007 and aggressive batsmen who can play both type of innings.
Rameez Raja winner of 1992.

Uhmm, so do we.

• Aravind de Silva - Man of the Match in the final. Cometh the hour, cometh the man!
• Clive Lloyd - Led West Indies to two world cup wins. Born Leader.
• Kapil Dev - Instrumental in the 1983 WC win for India. India's most versatile proponent.
• Maxwell - Insane record of 64 in 2015 WC. Can bowl too.
• Starc - Leading Wicket Taker with an average of 10.

We additionally have CT winners and finalists as well, which @Skills will more than happily provide.

 

[Skills]

Going by the same context there where no CT to play with for Harper else his stats would be different.
Sharma is not the best man to deal with Ambrose or Steyn, his got those bad temperament to deal with and those gung ho approach never going to any better.

Well this is dumb then. @2mufc0 if people are just going base the arguements on completing ignoring the champions trophy what was the point of this draft? Have we just completely wasted our time?

 

[Mani]

I am not entirely sure if I am allowed to defend the team (@2mufc0 to confirm), but the idea that the Manant's top order blows ours out of the water is very laughable. Rohit Sharma made so many important contributions to India's 2015 CT run and then again in 2017. And I am not sure if you have watched Aravinda play, but he was at a different level altogether in the 1996 World Cup. Sri lanka simply would not have won the tournament if he was not in form. You can't ask for more than that from your top order.

His important knock came against India in SF when both oponers gone in quick succession apart from that I can remember many and too me Aravinda is better suited only to sub continent,hard and bounce wkts which he’s always suspect of.

 

[The Cat]

Well this is dumb then. @2mufc0 if people are just going base the arguements on completing the champions trophy what was the point of this draft? Have we just completely wasted our time?

Going by the same context there where no CT to play with for Harper else his stats would be different.
Sharma is not the best man to deal with Ambrose or Steyn, his got those bad temperament to deal with and those gung ho approach never going to any better.

Surely this whole draft cannot be used purely on stats in one or either or a combination of the competitions' averages?

These have to be an indicator not the be all and end all?

 

[Norris]

Yes I was wary of using the phrase, perhaps it is hyperbolic. However I stand by the point that I'm taking Hayden, Raja and Gambhir at ICC level every time over Sharma, Amla and Aravinda. There's an inescapable gulf certainly in World Cup pedigree (Aravinda's showing in '96 excepted) and I feel for you in that Amla, despite being an absolutely fantastic player, just hasn't got the ICC bona fides of his three opponents.

Uhmm, this isn't a World Cup draft though is it ? It's an ICC draft. Hayden, I agree is the best of the bunch, but the performances of Ramiz Raja and Gambhir have been limited to one tournament. I could easily argue that Rohit Sharma has atleast matched those levels on more than one occassion. Amla, yes, might not have as many memorable moments as the others, but he still averages a ridiculously good 40. His job is to stabilize the innings which he is an expert at doing (as backed by the stats) with Rohit going all guns blazing at the other. Aravinda is just pure class though. I am not sure how you are suggesting Gambhir is better than Aravinda. One had amazing support in a team which was one of the favourites to win. The other played for slight underdogs and overcame the odds to become world cup winners. Equipping Aravinda with an even better team is only going to elevate his performances. He's a clutch player. He rises to these occassions.

 

[Norris]

His important knock came against India in SF when both oponers gone in quick succession apart from that I can remember many and too me Aravinda is better suited only to sub continent,hard and bounce wkts which he’s always suspect of.

He was the man of the match in the final. He scored 107 (124)in the final against Australia, only the third ever century in a final at that point. If that's not good enough, he even picked up 3 wickets. Taylor and Ponting were dominating the game at that point. He came in and took them both out and put Australia under serious pressure. Picked up Healy later on as well. Can't do more than that.

The last point is very daft. There has been absolutely no mention of what sort of conditions are being used for these matches to suggest how one player would play or not. So there is no point in saying Player X is only good in this condition and that. I could easily use the same argument against more than half your team. As it is, World Cups and ICC tournaments are a fairly small sample size. Adding conditions to that, will result in almost minuscule barometers of performances.

 

[crappycraperson]

Don't like De Silva at 3. Not a huge issue but would want him to 4 or lower generally. Though he did come in during the first over itself in 96 semis and counter attacked very well. Batting is very even between 2 teams, just prefer skills/jazz's bowling

 

[2mufc0]

I am not entirely sure if I am allowed to defend the team (@2mufc0 to confirm),

You can contribute but prefer if it's only one manager at a time to avoid double teaming.

But if all 4 managers are commenting, i guess that's fair game too.

 

[2mufc0]

Surely this whole draft cannot be used purely on stats in one or either or a combination of the competitions' averages?

These have to be an indicator not the be all and end all?

Stats are important, but i was also hoping more discussion on big game performances and overall impact etc.

 

[Norris]

You can contribute but prefer if it's only one manager at a time to avoid double teaming.

But if all 4 managers are commenting, i guess that's fair game too.

Yeah, I think all 4 of us were online at roughly the same time, which is why I posted. Now will contribute as per the situation.

 

[2mufc0]

Well this is dumb then. @2mufc0 if people are just going base the arguements on completing ignoring the champions trophy what was the point of this draft? Have we just completely wasted our time?

No you haven't ICC CT carries weight, doesn't matter if the comparable player didn't play in one.

 

[MJJ]

Well this is dumb then. @2mufc0 if people are just going base the arguements on completing ignoring the champions trophy what was the point of this draft? Have we just completely wasted our time?

I drew with a guy playing two players out of position, all cricket drafts are like that.

 

[Mani]

He was the man of the match in the final. He scored 107 (124)in the final against Australia, only the third ever century in a final at that point. If that's not good enough, he even picked up 3 wickets. Taylor and Ponting were dominating the game at that point. He came in and took them both out and put Australia under serious pressure. Picked up Healy later on as well. Can't do more than that.

The last point is very daft. There has been absolutely no mention of what sort of conditions are being used for these matches to suggest how one player would play or not. So there is no point in saying Player X is only good in this condition and that. I could easily use the same argument against more than half your team. As it is, World Cups and ICC tournaments are a fairly small sample size. Adding conditions to that, will result in almost minuscule barometers of performances.

Whats wrong with using different condition as measurement on players performance ?after all we where allowed to pick player based on various tournament spread across various era.I like to know who are those players you are referring too?

 

[Norris]

Whats wrong with using different condition as measurement on players performance ?after all we where allowed to pick player based on various tournament spread across various era.I like to know who are those players you are referring too?

Because the sample size for ICC tournaments is small as it is. We are talking about 12-18 games played over a 7-8 year period. If you factor in conditions, used within these tournaments, you will be left with such a negligible sample size or none at all. In such cases, how are you supposed to measure player metrics ? You cannot combine a player's condition suitability and their performance within an ICC tournament. Like I said, there simply isn't enough data to make an objective study.

And the most important point I would raise and obviously, the most sensible one is that, there is absolutely no mention of what conditions are being used in these draft matches. So what is the point of questioning a player's suitability for certain conditions. If it was explicitly mentioned that the pitch going to be used is one which aides swing and bounce, I would partially agree that someone like de Silva might struggle. But that's not the case here is it ? I could easily argue the inverse as well.

Like I said, there is no point in discussing the conditions angle, since it is completely out of scope of the draft game. If it has not been introduced thus far, why bring it into the picture ?

 

[Mani]

Because the sample size for ICC tournaments is small as it is. We are talking about 12-18 games played over a 7-8 year period. If you factor in conditions, used within these tournaments, you will be left with such a negligible sample size or none at all. In such cases, how are you supposed to measure player metrics ? You cannot combine a player's condition suitability and their performance within an ICC tournament. Like I said, there simply isn't enough data to make an objective study.

And the most important point I would raise and obviously, the most sensible one is that, there is absolutely no mention of what conditions are being used in these draft matches. So what is the point of questioning a player's suitability for certain conditions. If it was explicitly mentioned that the pitch going to be used is one which aides swing and bounce, I would partially agree that someone like de Silva might struggle. But that's not the case here is it ? I could easily argue the inverse as well.

Like I said, there is no point in discussing the conditions angle, since it is completely out of scope of the draft game. If it has not been introduced thus far, why bring it into the picture ?

I would agree with your point on condition when the sample size is small but here for Aravinda we had decent sample size to analysis.

Here the player in question is Aravinda who had played in 3 WC's and out of it one in Australia /NZ, which gives us the enough sample size to analysis his performances as I said earlier he's poor outside sub continent, in Australia /NZ he played some seven matches against various countries and his score follows as,14 -31-7-62-7-11-42 one half century from seven innings is good for one down batsmen who is suspect of some pace and bounce.

Also point here to note is your oponers would expose your middle order too early to their licking.

 

[The Cat]

I would agree with your point on condition when the sample size is small but here for Aravinda we had decent sample size to analysis.

Here the player in question is Aravinda who had played in 3 WC's and out of it one in Australia /NZ, which gives us the enough sample size to analysis his performances as I said earlier he's poor outside sub continent, in Australia /NZ he played some seven matches against various countries and his score follows as,14 -31-7-62-7-11-42 one half century from seven innings is good for one down batsmen who is suspect of some pace and bounce.

Also point here to note is your oponers would expose your middle order too early to their licking.

I do hope the licking isn't ball tampering

 

[Skills]

I would agree with your point on condition when the sample size is small but here for Aravinda we had decent sample size to analysis.

Here the player in question is Aravinda who had played in 3 WC's and out of it one in Australia /NZ, which gives us the enough sample size to analysis his performances as I said earlier he's poor outside sub continent, in Australia /NZ he played some seven matches against various countries and his score follows as,14 -31-7-62-7-11-42 one half century from seven innings is good for one down batsmen who is suspect of some pace and bounce.

Also point here to note is your oponers would expose your middle order too early to their licking.

Well if you're using that logic, this is Hayden's record in world cups outside of the WI:

27-45*-33-34-88-1-22-1-20-20-37 - South Africa 2003 World Cup

23-47-17 - 2004 Champions Trophy England