There we go then. DDG should have grabbed the ball and given away an indirect freekick.
David de Gea | 2011-14 Performances
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I haven't, but I've seen it happen.
If the keeper handles a back pass to deny a goal scoring opportunity, it's a straight red. That's just not an option for a keeper, unless you're in a late game situation and the goal would knock you out of a cup.
A keeper's instinct and training is to not pick up a back pass, which the ball clearly was. A keeper's instinct and training is also to avoid all contact with the forward where he cannot safely (rushing into a through ball) or legally (back pass) collect it, for fear of a straight red.
It is a Graham Poll article but what he says(the bolded part) is in the rule book.
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_12_fouls_misconduct_en_47379.pdf
Ref's say otherwise.
Poll is right, it's not a red card.
(I remember similar issues being discussed when Newcastle beat Chelsea 1-0 in 10/11 after a defensive feckup between Alex and Cech, with someone saying that Cech couldn't have just palmed the pass away because it would have been a red for denying a goalscoring opportunity)
(I remember similar issues being discussed when Newcastle beat Chelsea 1-0 in 10/11 after a defensive feckup between Alex and Cech, with someone saying that Cech couldn't have just palmed the pass away because it would have been a red for denying a goalscoring opportunity)
Just about a perfect post on the subject. I understand the need to defend him but it actually weakens your stance when you are unable to admit when he has made an error as it makes the times you legitmately defend him seem like bias.
Even so, do you really take that risk in that situation? Keepers get sent off all the time for less where they barely get a finger on the forward, even if they get another finger on the ball.
The assumption at work is that De Gea had a clean play on the ball, which is not the case. But even if he did, which he didn't, not even Casillas would instantly think to handle the ball and give up the indirect kick. The instinct is to use your head or your feet to clear the ball, right? The problem with either in that situation was that the risk of botching a head or foot clearance was so great that a red card would have been nearly inevitable.
Better to cut your losses than risk making a bad situation a disastrous situation.
He jumped away from the ball leaving an empty net. Don't want to make a tackle then stand up. That's a pretty big fecking mistake. It doesn't make him a bad keeper. The same way playing a shite pass doesn't make Carrick a bad midfielder.
That's a different rule-book to the one I was quoting from:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/footballdevelopment/refereeing/81/42/36/lawsofthegame_2012_e.pdf
How many rulebooks do FIFA have?!
One for United and one for everyone else. That's the rumour.
Carrick admitted he made the mistake. Fergie acknowledged that Carrick made the mistake.
But no, let's bring out the long knives for De Gea, who was put in an impossible position by Carrick, who himself admitted he made the mistake.
ffs! Nobody's suggesting that Carrick didn't make a big mistake.
I don't see anyone saying Carrick didn't make a mistake. Saying he made a mistake isn't having he knives out for him. Even most saying De Gea made a mistake rate him. Don't let that get in the way of some melodrama though.
Come on now, it was not an impossible position, it was very hairy situation that he could have handled better. That's the only thing people are saying, rightly.
It's "ahh crap" I could have done better and he knows it, you could see that he knew it and it ate at him after but, as I said earlier, he didn't wilt but, did his job aftewards. We should take that positive along with the fact that he is still a bit shy with physical contact.
Agreed, but we've got another four or whatever pages of posts beating the shit out of De Gea and the British media flogging him again. (New rumors of Valdes FFS!). If you put your keeper in an impossible position, only Superman can get you out of that impossible situation unscathed. De Gea is not Superman. Casillas is not Superman. Valdes isn't even Robin! Rodriguez was always going to be there first, so De Gea had little choice but to make sure he avoided getting a red card.
Has there been a single mention why none of our defenders had the goal line covered while De Gea was put in extreme peril? Not that I'm aware of. I'm not here to blame the defenders, but if we're going nitpick we have to look at them as well. But no, we have to have to have a go at De Gea AGAIN even though this situation is light years away from the kinds of mistakes we see keepers make every single day in the English prem.
DDG is the new Berba of the Caf.
It seems he has a set of loyal posters who no matter what he does will defend him to the hilt and has a set of posters who no matter what happens will blame him.
To my eyes yesterday's goal was mostly on Carrick but De Gea's reactions and attempts to save were very poor and lazy. Almost like he was asleep. I'm not quite sure how anyone can see it any other way.
Arguments of "oh he saved himself from getting sent off" is really clinging on to very little.
It seems he has a set of loyal posters who no matter what he does will defend him to the hilt and has a set of posters who no matter what happens will blame him.
To my eyes yesterday's goal was mostly on Carrick but De Gea's reactions and attempts to save were very poor and lazy. Almost like he was asleep. I'm not quite sure how anyone can see it any other way.
Arguments of "oh he saved himself from getting sent off" is really clinging on to very little.
TBH - De Gea should have done better. He was put in a bad spot by Carrick, but he didn't deal with it well.
My end Summary -
Big mistake by Carrick
De gea COULD have done better.
Any one trying to place all blame at one end is wrong.
De Gea will be a great keeper regardless.
My end Summary -
Big mistake by Carrick
De gea COULD have done better.
Any one trying to place all blame at one end is wrong.
De Gea will be a great keeper regardless.
Whoever sent you off isn't fit to referee.
Nor was Graham Poll.
Yesterday De Gea was to blame imo, yes Carrick done a bad back pass and it was awkward.. but I'd rather De Gea went for it strong, lost out in the challenge and lost the goal. In my opinion, he shirked the challenge and I just don't think VDS or Schmikes would do summat like that.. so something he needs to work on, going all in and not worrying about the consequences is kind of an important trait for someone aspiring to be the best.
Perhaps the difficulty is what is meant by "mistake" here on the caf.
By "mistake" what immediately comes to my mind is a ball slipping through Jens Lehmann's hands and VDS's bobble of a high ball several seasons ago and De Gea's flap against Blackburn last season -- not the failure to make the perfect play -- viewed in retrospect -- in an extremely difficult situation. If the latter is what is meant here by "mistake" then yes, De Gea made a mistake. He's made numerous "mistakes" all season long, as has every other keeper on the planet.
When a keeper finds himself in a 1v1 situation with a forward the odds are stacked against him, generally, to come up with the stop. And add to that that the ball in play was a backpass so handling the ball is not an option.
The two of us can sit here after the game and agree that conceding the indirect kick (De Gea grabbing the ball) would have resulted in a difficult but not impossible position for United to defend. But in real time that thought simply cannot go through a keeper's head. Was conceding the indirect free kick, not being fully sure what the ref would decide in terms of the keeper denying a "clear goal scoring opportunity"? -- recall that English referees are, uniformly terrible (significantly worse than the MLS and the Mexican first division) and you never know what crazy shit they'll come up with -- De Gea made the safe play, which was not bundle into Rodriguez and not get sent off and give his teammates 88 minutes to salvage the win.
I will concede this: If United were up 2-1 in the 88th minute in a vital match and De Gea were in the exact same situation he should have gone all out for it, risking a red card or even injury. A pk can always be saved, but at least the easy goal for the equalizer late in the game would have been taken off the table.
Exactly my thoughts! Also, people compare De Gea's record with Lindegaards, but Lindegaard has played most of his games against weaker opposition. With time, De Gea will be best in the world.
He's only 22 FFS!
Don't you think that the horrible ball Carrick played to him meant that he didn't have an opportunity to go for it? It fully looked like he expected a firm pass and what he got was a fluff. Yes, he could have dealth with the situation better but it's almost universally recognized that keepers can only do so much, when the players in front of them leave them hanging out to dry, they're fecked.
It being a back-pass also complicates matters a bit and left him with one less option.
You can add coming for a ball then just prancing into the air in a twirl, leaving an open goal for the Southampton forward to slot the ball into to that list.
I didn't read the rest of your post.
Had De Gea had his hands in the air, would that have made any difference in your opinion of his performance on the play?
If you really want to break this down, what you see on that play is that:
1. De Gea came out for the ball, which I believe everyone here would agree was the right -- and in truth only -- play. Standing on his line was no option whatsoever. If anyone disagrees, I'll go hunt the internet for that photo of Picard.
2. Rodriguez, rather than lobbing the ball, controlled it and brought it to the ground and slotted it in. De Gea saw the ball being in a position where a lob over him was the likeliest option Rodriguez would take and he, De Gea, leapt up. But as soon as Rodriguez controlled the ball down, rather than lobbing it up, De Gea had already been compromised. Being beaten, it would have been foolish to raise his hands in the air AFTER the ball had been controlled down. Battle lost.
So if the criticism is that pranced and twirled I'd like to know what he supposed to do given a split second to decide what to do. If you wanted him to handle the ball, what you're saying is that he should have knowingly given up the indirect kick right outside the six yard box. That's okay, but that's a lot easier to dream that up on while typing it on your laptop than it is in real time.
Since we're nitpicking (which is what we do here...perfectly reasonable) Smalling was ball watching. He should have seen the extreme peril Carrick had put De Gea in and gone to the goal line to backstop De Gea. Vidic too, though he was a yard or two back and may not have been able to get there in time to do anything.
Great post describing the incident that led to the Southampton goal and the likely scenarios that could have prevented it from happening. I will just make a few comments on a couple of points which were raised. I agree with your assessment that the goal was a result of a difficult situation that was created by the initial, sloppy back pass made by Carrick that De Gea was unfortunately unable to effectively deal with. The primary mistake that De Gea was noticeably at fault for was failing to properly read the situation created as soon as Carrick attempted the ill-fated back pass. Had he followed through with the decision to come out of his line swiftly, he would have had a much better chance of successfully contending for the loose ball. Once he made the delayed decision to come out and clear the ball though, he was presented with a clear disadvantage, where the striker was better able to dictate subsequent events either by trying a lob or as what actually transpired, controlling the ball and attempting to score from a tight angle (which admittedly would have been much harder to do had De Gea stood his ground and adequately protected the goal).
At this specific stage of the game though where De Gea was face to face with the striker, I don't think he had the alternative option that you stated, which was to make a challenge to win the ball without conceding a penalty and avoiding the risk of being sent off in the process. The only viable option that was available at that particular moment in my opinion was to stand his ground, make himself big, and force the striker to quickly choose between trying an audacious lob or a tough shot from a tight angle. De Gea did not take this attractive option though; instead he jumped in the air prematurely convinced that the striker had automatically opted for a lob shot. The end result made De Gea look like a low grade keeper unable to follow through with his convictions and incapable of making appropriate decisions.
The ability to deal with similarly complicated situations in future games will come as he matures over the coming years. It is indeed apparent that De Gea possesses a great deal of resilience which has allowed him to fend off unwarranted, over the top attacks masquerading as legitimate criticisms of his ability and suitableness for Man United. He will learn from his mistake against Southampton and will improve his decision making as he gains further experience. I have few doubts that De Gea will eventually become an outstanding, top choice keeper for Man United; he is already far too good not to reach that ultimate level.
I think it's fair to say that there's a lot people overreacting about DDG when even Carrick himself has come out and taken the blame for the goal.
The goal was a shambles with a host of mistakes, Carrick's the worst. I really don't see the need to focus on the keeper. He was slow and wimped the tackle but he would hardly have been expecting what went on ahead of him. Lack of concentration at the start of the match was the main problem for me.
Yeah I agree with that. It's all fine and well against the likes of Southampton, but if that were to happen again in the CL or against a top team, we would be in serious trouble.
That's all well and good, but there yet has yet to be a convincing articulation as to why de Gea should have risked getting get sent off in the second minute against a midtable squad we had no reason to believe we would be unable to beat in the remaining 88 minutes.
If you read my entire post you would find that I did make the point that the main problem lies in the speed with which De Gea came out of his line to deal with the situation. Since he was slow coming out, he effectively squandered the opportunity to get to the ball before the striker had the chance to control the ball and gain an advantage. If we observe what actually transpired, once De Gea got face to face with the striker, he was in no position to make a challenge that did not result in a penalty and him being sent off. I'm not arguing that De Gea should have made a tackle to get to the ball as he reached the striker. I'm questioning his initial hesitation to come out of his line to clear the loose ball that was a result of a back pass initially intended for him when all the facts indicated that getting to the ball was the correct decision to make under the circumstance and should have been executed immediately when the threat from the striker arose. Even after getting to the ball late, had he properly determined that it was impossible to make a clean, legitimate tackle to win the ball, he should have stood his ground and tried to block a potential shot, instead of aimlessly jumping in anticipation of an automatic lob that did not materialize.
It's difficult - because if the goalkeeper can handle a backpass - he is clearly first on the ball - and hence ... it's not an OBVIOUS goalscoring opportunity
So imo - the only time you can really send off a goalkeeper for handling the a backpass and denying a goalscoring opportunity is:
a) the goalkeeper dives to save a backpass which otherwise would have gone in
b) the ball is clearly going past the goalkeeper and an attacked will first get to the ball if he doesn't take it with his hands.
The Rodriguez-situation would not be a red if he had taken it with his hands - because he COULD have won that ball if he hadn't been hesitant.
BUT...DDG can't gamble on not getting a red. The error was a bit Anderson's and mostly Carricks
So imo - the only time you can really send off a goalkeeper for handling the a backpass and denying a goalscoring opportunity is:
a) the goalkeeper dives to save a backpass which otherwise would have gone in
b) the ball is clearly going past the goalkeeper and an attacked will first get to the ball if he doesn't take it with his hands.
The Rodriguez-situation would not be a red if he had taken it with his hands - because he COULD have won that ball if he hadn't been hesitant.
BUT...DDG can't gamble on not getting a red. The error was a bit Anderson's and mostly Carricks
He would've been lambasted had he given away an indirect free kick for handling a back pass, he just can't win with a lot of people.
The goal wasn't really his fault, but he could have prevented it if he'd bolted off his line and dived at the player's feet, or at least made himself big and closed the angle. While I've seen penalties/red cards given in similar circumstances, I've seen 'keepers dealing with that kind of situation many a time.
You simply can't expect a guy this young not to feck up once in a while... it's all part of being an inexperienced player.
It didn't cost us the game, so the important thing now is that everyone moves on and he makes sure he doesn't make the same mistake again.
You simply can't expect a guy this young not to feck up once in a while... it's all part of being an inexperienced player.
It didn't cost us the game, so the important thing now is that everyone moves on and he makes sure he doesn't make the same mistake again.
All this armchair retrospective criticism fails to acknowledge that De Gea had to make this decision in about 1 second. What seems obvious to some now, which actually isn't so obvious since the line was so thin between getting it exactly right and getting sent off, had to be decided before his critics could again gleefully get the words "De Gea is having a mare of a season." out of their fukking gobs.
It’s true that the unfortunate defensive situation created during the early moments of the Southampton game required a response (aimed at dealing with the problem) to be made under a very narrow time frame. My heart sank as soon as the early goal went in for I knew that the salivating critics obtained yet another convenient but mainly unwarranted reason to pathetically doubt De Gea’s superb abilities as our first choice keeper. They seem intent on blindly lambasting the lad even when he’s having a brilliant game.
Nonetheless, this infuriating reality should not overshadow the fact that he will be expected to deal with similarly complicated scenarios which necessitate quick decision making in more intense future matches with greater implications for our campaign. So it’s best if he realizes his error, no matter how trivial the mistake may appear to some, (compared to Carrick’s initial under hit back pass) and learns from it so he may effectively deal with a potentially equivalent circumstance if it arises in an upcoming Champions League knockout fixture.
Nonetheless, this infuriating reality should not overshadow the fact that he will be expected to deal with similarly complicated scenarios which necessitate quick decision making in more intense future matches with greater implications for our campaign. So it’s best if he realizes his error, no matter how trivial the mistake may appear to some, (compared to Carrick’s initial under hit back pass) and learns from it so he may effectively deal with a potentially equivalent circumstance if it arises in an upcoming Champions League knockout fixture.
You can't send a keeper off at all for handling a backpass. Whether its going into a strikers path or straight into the back of the net. It's an indirect free kick.
Thing is, I reckon this would actually be allowed. You often see that.
I've provided a number of convincing articulations as to why de Gea should have risked giving away a penalty, all based on the fact that the risk would have been very minimal had he attacked the ball with a degree of conviction. He'd have won the ball, there's no doubt about that.
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