I'm amazed anyone chose Bale over De Gea.
De Gea or Bale?
- Thread starter Darwin09
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- Every other club or fan of another club would pick Bale over De Gea.
- United fans would also pick Bale over De Gea if De Gea was still at Atletico playing exactly the same level.
You might as well have asked people to choose between their own mum and Gareth Bale; for how partisan and ignoring the facts this debate has been.
There is absolutely nothing between Lloris and De Gea and yet United fans would rather have De Gea than Lloris and Bale, when the team is absolutely begging for goals from midfield and pace.
I have never known a player more overrated by his own club. This is like the entire history of RAWK overvaluing players wrapped into one player. Fans saying they wouldn't swap De Gea for Messi. It's the type of mass delusion Titus Oates or Jean-Paul Marat wouldn't have believed possible.
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It's not exactly biased when we all want the best for our club.
Well that's just not true at all, saying every other fan would pick bale. De gea is much better at what he does then bale, it's not even close. Also you overrate bale by an incredible amount. Yeah, he's one of the top 20 attacking players in the world probably, and is an excellent player, but you make it sound like he's top 5 or something. What has he ever done that was so incredible, even stats wise? Plenty of players out there with similar stats but much better footballing intelligence and technical ability. Bale without pace would be pretty useless in all reality.
@luckyspurs your list of goalkeepers that are close to De Gea is a joke. Baumann, Fährmann, Bravo etc. you are having a laugh. There are 3 or 4 gk in that list, they are nearly impossible to get. Just because Bale played for Spurs, you are overrating and defending him.
"What has he ever done that was so incredible"
- 4th most goals and assists in the last 2.5 years.
- Only Ronaldo, Messi and Suarez have more (not Aguero, not Costa, not Falcao, not Van Persie, not Rooney, not Lewandowski, not Reus, not Neymar, not Tevez, not Robben, not Muller, not Sanchez, not Di Maria).
- From midfield.
- At 25 years of age.
- With a wonder goal from his own half against Barcelona in a cup final.
- And a winner in a Champions League final.
- And a Champions League hat-trick against the holders.
- And scoring 21 goals from midfield at 23 years of age to drag an average team to a point off a Champions League place.
- And scoring goals in wins against Chelsea and Arsenal days apart, to get his team to the Champions League for the first time ever (European Cup for the first time since 1962).
- Let 40 goals in a season for a team that have got worse since he arrived.
- Won 1 title in 4 years if he doesn't do it this season, despite the previous keeper winning 4 in 6 years.
- Never done anything in the Champions League, despite the previous keeper getting to 3 finals in 6 years and winning one.
- Won a Europa League.
- Never done anything internationally.
- Made a good amount of saves similar to Lloris, Cech and Courtois.
- Fist pump and become incredibly popular with United fans, desperate to feel they've got a world class player in the team.
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We do have some lovely spurs fans on here don't we. Glastonspurs, luckyspurs and the banned Eriksen...
@luckyspurs what do you make of Bale's form so far this season. An answer without stats would be preferable.
The amount of hype Bale have in this forum is astonishing. Even Madrid fans aren't that excited about Bale's recent performances. The moment he doesn't have space, he plays terribly. He simply doesn't have the skills to play against a bus-parking, tight defense.
Rest assured; he will play for United one day
He's doing that Ronaldo thing of looking rubbish but scoring tonnes. Would rather have that than Coutinho or Isco looking great but not scoring; especially for your own club.
Eh, they are both playmakers whose job isn't to score goals. Granted both of them could be more clinical but Isco has been way better than Bale this season. I'm sure most la liga and Real fans would agree with me on that.
You are obsessed with stats, there are so many parts of football that you just can't quantify. Yes he's a good goalscorer from outside as he has a great shot. But his numbers aren't ayhing extraordinary. You've conveniently picked the last 2.5 years as that has been when bale has been getting good numbers, but doesn't include the 30+ goals that the strikers you included had the season before that point while a few of them are old now and declining. Anyways, that stat is probably wrong anyways as I get the feeling you plucked it out of your arse and looked at a select few who you would think has more potentially. Where is ibrahimovic in that list?
As for your assessment on de gea, well, he put in a man of the match performance in Real Madrids own backyard and gave us a draw at the age of what, 22? Conveniently including trophies won as he had 2 years with fergie and then the mess last season and this season, while Van der sar, who was also one of the best ever, had fergie the entire time?
The feck has bale done internationally if you're going to use that against him. He should walk into the starting 11 as he's been a few levels above Casillas for over 2 years now, but doesn't because of del bosque and his reluctance to change things.
If you want the same type of thing with bale... He led a Spurs team to 5th (oooh big deal), missing out on the champions league behind a mediocre arsenal team, he scored 21 goals in a team that was built around him and had him as the main goalscorer playing in the hole. I already said he was a very good goalscorer though, he has a great shot and good physics attributes, but what does he have apart from that? His numbers aren't ronaldo or messi level or Anyang like that either, his overall play counts. And in that department, touch, creativity, ability in tight spaces, there are loads better.
You're just incredibly blinkered about bale because Spurs made him, but he's not one of the top 10 players in the world, nowhere near. Also, you seem to be forgetting that despite de gea being a couple of years younger then bale I think, and keepers usually hitting their prime around 30, he is up there with neuer in the worlds best goalkeepers, something the majority of football fans would agree with at this point (him being top 3). Bale is in his physical prime, but once he loses that yard of pace, what will he be? He lacks the football intelligence, the deft touch, the creativity, generally on the ball ability to reinvent his game. He is excellent at what he does, but put him in a game where there isn't a lot of space and you aren't counter attacking and he won't be half the player.
Als, something you should learn. Goals does not equal better player. Maybe if you score more then twice what the next best do like ronaldo and messi every year for the last 5-6 years, then yeah, sure. But if he is above all those, it isn't by a whole lot and when fit the others you mentioned are better players.
Look at hazard, he gets decent numbers but very few people these days would say bale is better then him, there is a reason after all that madrid wouldn't be against selling him. That's because there are much better players available for a fraction of the price. He's am excellent player, but he isn't world class, isn't worth half of the prices quoted and if he wasn't british, he wouldn't haveanywhere close to the reputation that he does.
Edit: also Lewandowski has more goals and assists over the past 2.5 years, can't be arsed looking at the rest. If you're going to try and post facts, next time try and make sure that they're right and not disproved by a simple search.
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That's the key here I reckon. Bale is the best thing Spurs have produced in God knows how long so the fact that we wouldn't want to swap our keeper for him pains @luckyspurs.
However, Bale is definitely amongst the top ten players in the world, in my opinion.
He's class no doubt, but he is incredibly overrated imo. Reckon I could name 15 players who are better without much hesitation.
Ronaldo, messi, Robben, suarez, modric, neuer, lahm, hazard, aguero, silva, di Maria (last seasons one of course), reus, Neymar probably, sanchez, sergio Ramos, de gea, courtois, fabregas.... Then you have rooney, Yaya toure, Kroos, james Rodriguez (looked much better then bale this season imo) and probably others who I would have at the same level or arguably above him. That's 22 players, some are arguable of course as its my opinion and some are at a similar level, but bale just lacks the technical ability and intelligence of quite a few of the others so I can't have him top 10 at all.
What you just did is very wrong in my eyes, because you made a list of players who are supposed to form almost two complete teams and you compared the players with each others. And while i think that your judgement of Bale abilities is correct the simple fact that he is in a group of player who are supposed to create the 3 best eleven in the world shows that he is not overrated, he is rated as he should.
- There are other factors that can't be quantified, but you'd like some quantifiable ones as well if you're going to turn down an £80m player for a goalkeeper you could replace with Cech and Lloris without losing a beat.
- "But his numbers aren't anything extraordinary". 70 goals and assists in 30 months, from midfield, is pretty special. Di Maria has about 45 and Hazard 55. Reus only has about 55 himself.
- "You've conveniently picked the last 2.5 years". Firstly, they're the most recent. Secondly, 2.5 years is actually quite a decent amount of time to be keeping up goals and assists stats. Given the amount Falcao's 2 years at Atletico or Di Maria's season at Real Madrid have been highlighted to make their cases. Thirdly, he was playing as an orthodox winger in the Ashley Young mould three years ago and was 22 years of age.
- The stat isn't wrong. I can find it exactly if I look back through my comments. Amazing you can't believe an actual statistic that shows Bale is much more effective than all the more gifted attacking midfielders you mention. But about 20 goalkeepers making exactly the same amount of saves as De Gea is nonsense and he's clearly £60m better than them. Weird logic.
- De Gea lets in more goals a season than Bosnich, Barthez, Howard and Carroll and has considerably less league titles than those four. Despite having better defenders than those 4 had until this season
- If it's a case of what have you done; wouldn't you pick the World Cup winner, three times Champions League winning leader and motivator, who's saves helped win the Champions League a couple of months before the World Cup.
- Bale's scored goals for his country, from midfield, despite them being about as creative as Sunderland or Aston Villa. Ramsey plays rubbish for Wales and Allen doesn't create goals enough.
- "What does Bale have apart from goalscoring". Far better dribbling than Di Maria, if the purpose of a dribble is to get further down the pitch and past tacklers with the ball still at your feet more often than not. Great crossing. Can actually slide a through ball through, as even Ronaldo would acknowledge because he'd have about 10 goals less without them.
- People assume Bale can't do anything in tight areas because they're used to seeing him do it in open space. Infact he does both.
- "You're just incredibly blinkered by Bale because Spurs made him". From a thread where 85% of United fans think De Gea is worth more than £80m.
- De Gea is a year younger than Bale and keepers lose their shot stopping prime in their early 30s, just as outfield players lose their pace. Just look at Casillas and Buffon.
- Bale's scored plenty of goals when he's started from a stand still infront of a packed defence. In other words nothing to do with pace. To do with shot power and technique, which he does have in spades.
- Goals aren't everything but a player who can score that many from midfield is invaluable. You'd be above Man City most likely if you'd signed him.
- If he wasn't British he'd have a better reputation if anything. Brazilian Ronaldo beat people with pace and power and people raved. Bale does it and he's some Welsh kid relying on physicality because he's got no technique. It's nonsense.
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Now name the 15 midfielders that could get near the 70 goals and assists in 2.5 years that Bale managed; since I mentioned 20 goalkeepers that made very similar amount of saves to De Gea.
Actually Modric is the best player we've produced (if we're not giving Dinamo Zagreb the credit), ahead of Bale, Campbell, King and Berbatov (apologies to Bayer Leverkusen).
I'd much rather watch Modric too.
I agree to you to an extent, I'm saying the prices quoted for him are increvily overrated. Di maria went for 60m and last season he was better and more important for real Madrid. Even then, plenty are saying he was really overpriced. Bale at 100m+? Come on.
Anyways, it's always hard to rate individual players against each other because of the date afferent circumstances they're all in. Some players get their stats boosted, some are hindered by their teams and how they use them, but I was more just naming off players who I think are better at their best in the right systems.
Why is everything about stats and numbers? Bale gets better stats then hazard but there is one clear winner there between them and it's certainly not bale.
There isn't a clear winner between those two.
I think the comparison of awards and stats is an interesting illustration of perception vs. reality. It's worth noting that the world at large looks at MUFC players differently than Spurs players.
Even conceding that Bale is currently the more accomplished and better player, I think De Gea's cumulative value over time (given his expected longevity) from today forward will be greater than Bale. We have a statistic we use in baseball called WAR (wins above replacement) that you can measure over a player's career. It tells how many wins a player added to his team's performances over a typical baseline performance. De Gea's position, excellence, youth, potential for improvement, and ability to play until age 40 mean that for me he will be directly responsible for more wins from today forward.
Even conceding that Bale is currently the more accomplished and better player, I think De Gea's cumulative value over time (given his expected longevity) from today forward will be greater than Bale. We have a statistic we use in baseball called WAR (wins above replacement) that you can measure over a player's career. It tells how many wins a player added to his team's performances over a typical baseline performance. De Gea's position, excellence, youth, potential for improvement, and ability to play until age 40 mean that for me he will be directly responsible for more wins from today forward.
Yeah, you didn't produce those players at all, tbf.
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Ha, you 'gif'd Christian BALE for the quote on Gareth BALE...
and 'gif'd a de Gea look-a-like for the quote on de Gea.
Let's return to first principles.
If we hope to build a squad that truly aspires to compete for the CL trophy, we have to begin with the keeper. David Dea is one of the top three keepers on the planet and he's not far off from looking at Neuer in the rear view mirror. If we dropped him (to pick up Bale, which I think is the still the proposition laid before us) we would be taking a massive step backward with our ability to defend against the best clubs on earth.
I don't think anyone has mentioned De Gea's performance against Real Madrid, a team we had on the ropes largely due to magnificent saves by De Gea. In the end we went down to 10 men and then Modric hit a shot that even Zeus himself would have had no chance of saving before Ronaldo finished us off for good, but the point is that a club which hopes to win a CL has to have a great keeper. We had one in Schmikes and then VDS. Yes, you have to have a great squad but you really need an outstanding keeper more than you need an outstanding winger.
If we hope to build a squad that truly aspires to compete for the CL trophy, we have to begin with the keeper. David Dea is one of the top three keepers on the planet and he's not far off from looking at Neuer in the rear view mirror. If we dropped him (to pick up Bale, which I think is the still the proposition laid before us) we would be taking a massive step backward with our ability to defend against the best clubs on earth.
I don't think anyone has mentioned De Gea's performance against Real Madrid, a team we had on the ropes largely due to magnificent saves by De Gea. In the end we went down to 10 men and then Modric hit a shot that even Zeus himself would have had no chance of saving before Ronaldo finished us off for good, but the point is that a club which hopes to win a CL has to have a great keeper. We had one in Schmikes and then VDS. Yes, you have to have a great squad but you really need an outstanding keeper more than you need an outstanding winger.
shirt sales?!? Jaysus, you're a piece of work.Believe it or not football (or soccer, as you call it) exists at levels other than Champion's League and top tier national leagus. Yet players who consistently score goals always cost more than those who save them.
I somehow doubt shirt sakes is a factor in the minds of lower division clubs when they blow their meagre budget on the best striker they can afford. Just so we're clear. They don't. The whole replica shirt thing only applies to clubs that have fans overseas. Even at that level it's almost insignificant compared to the value a top striker brings if he's a consistent goal-scorer. When Sunderland signed Steven Fletcher they weren't doing it to sell more shirts, believe me.
So, 1.) Equating VDS & Schmeichel is a bit of lunacy...VDS was great but he wasn't top-3 in the world like Schmikes. But more importantly, 2.) Valdes is in the squad, is two years younger than when we got VDS, and has been one of the best keepers in the world for half a decade. It's not like we're asking Roy Carroll to do a job if we let De Gea go.
It's about balance and optimization.
You didnt produce Modric..
And its astonishing how much you are underrating DDG..That part about barthez,bosnich,howard is funny too..
whats with spurs fans in this forum?
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Didn't realise it myself. Now that you say it, it does look like De Gea a bit.
You're talking so much shite it's unbelievable, covering it with pin points and shitload of statistics won't change that. I'll put it as straightforward as I can so maybe but just maybe you understand it: without de Gea this season we'd be midtable at best. He's been consistently our best player for two seasons now, bailing us out on numerous occasions and this season he's been phenomenal, we're fourth without Bale and it's not granted we'd be any higher with Bale in our squad. We've got quality players that are not working as they're expected to, RVP, Rooney, ADM, Mata and especially Falcao have been letting us down numerous times this season and de Gea hasn't done that once.
For various reasons, make it be being played out of position, playing in a shit 352 formation, fitness issues, injuries or being over the hill with their form, the aforementioned players have failed us. Those players are capable of producing the same kind of magic Bale is yet they, for some reason, fail to do it quite often. I've given plenty reasons why, you can match each player with each reason and you'll probably make it out. There's absolutely no guarantee that Bale would produce the same kind of output in our broken team as he does for Madrid or if he'd be able to carry our team on his shoulders as he did with your small shite club from London. None. Even if it's our forum's joke, he could as well be played at a fecking LWB and we'd all be wondering why he looks like a piece of shit when he's looked so great at Madrid. Mind you that ADM who's better player than monkeyboy and who's been better player for RM than monkeyboy (yes, waiting for the inevitable wall of fecking statistics thrown at me) is struggling for some reason in our team, been hot and cold (not in the way he's been hot and cold at RM, no), possibly because he's being played out of position 24/7 and our team doesn't do half of the off-ball movement RM do nor do we have as quality players in certain positions.
Thing is, in their respective roles de Gea is probably top 3 in the world, probably most would agree on that (bar you, of course, you'd throw Lloris ahead of him and peter would throw Szczęsny ahead) but if you're insisting, make it top 5. I highly, highly doubt that 'most fans' would pick Bale for their top 5 of attacking players, I doubt 'most fans' would take him ahead of Messi, Ronaldo, Robben, Aguero, Neymar, Silva, probably Müller, Sanchez in current form and I'm probably forgetting somebody. All those players are currently carrying their clubs at times, clubs much much bigger than a wee-club from North London when Bale was carrying you lot.
As for the bolded, seriously, feck off. I've just recycled everything that has been said in this thread so far really, nothing new in my post and yet it's you who decides to spout constant bollocks with fingers in your ears throwing shitlong posts that carry statistics from last 100 years and very little substance. It's either, as you suggest, all of us suffering from mass delusion or you being an annoying wum.
In all fairness, if the decision is Lloris + Bale or De Gea alone, surely that's a no brainer?
Are people seriously saying we'd be better off with just De Gea?
Are people seriously saying we'd be better off with just De Gea?
Problem is that such decision won't exist, only offer that could happen is possibly us giving them de Gea and about 50 mln quid upwards for monkeyboy. We'd be incredibly skinned if so and that decision would be plainly retarded.
Best player in the world imo, including those two goal machines.
And those stats dont include the times where the opposition striker looks so anxious about Neuer being unbeatable that he misses the target, which happened to Gervinho when Roma played Bayern.
As we can't possibly know, saying one or the other is the same.
Yeah, it's the finer details of any swap deal that would be the sticking point. Plus it would more than likely involve Valdes stepping up and there's enough doubts about him getting back to his best/acclimatising to the PL to make that a major concern.
I can understand people who aren't sure if Bale is what we need, or don't rate him (personally, I would disagree on both points but they're up for debate) What blows my mind is how many people in this thread can't grasp the simple truism that reliable goal-scorers are always more valuable than reliable goal-savers. As I said a while back, that statement is literally true. They cost more money.
I would like someone to answer luckyspurs point about the stats he posted. The numbers suggest De Gea is in the middle of the group of keepers he mentioned as far as save percentage and save percentage inside the box. How does that hold up with the idea that De Gea is so much better than anyone but Neuer and Courtois? How do you explain the numbers?
Real Madrid should be offering us Bale and £50m for DDG. And we should be telling them to go feck themselves.
I already responded. I asked him for more recent numbers, as De Gea is a rapidly improving player. As always, he's much less forthcoming with stats that don't suit his argument than he is with those that do.
In fact, didn't you also ask for those stats?