Did Nicky Butt Allude To Trouble at United?

justsomebloke

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Problem is you have to be alot better than mckenna to be his judge.

Put me in the same room with moyes I'd probably think he's a genious
Your inability to correctly spell "genius" makes that seem likely. :)

More seriously to your first line, why? That's really not how it works, in any walk of life. If it did, no one would be able to tell that Pep Guardiola is good. Naturally you can recognise qualities in other peoples work even if you're not able to reproduce the same performance yourself. Same with shortcomings.
 

Cloud7

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They started to call him Buttman and made him wear a full leather suit to training. Or so my sources tell me.
So close to finally finding our successor to Buttner. Ah well, the search continues.
 

tomaldinho1

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It does seem like he got shafted a bit after supposedly brilliant work but I don't see much in the quotes to suggest much more than he's a bit pissed at the club.

On the McKenna quote, Butt was head of first team development and McKenna was U-18's manager for half of the time they crossed paths, we know he was an excellent youth coach and Butt would have a good eye for that but not sure we have any proof of him at the senior level bar what we see on the pitch and some vague quote (which I can't verify so please don't latch onto as a criticism) that players complained about his training methods not being 'continental', which conjures images of croissants, cured ham and sliced cheese for me but, anyway, we have no idea how good our coaching staff are and can only really judge by their end product, what we se on the pitch.
 

Karlos PFC

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Very enlightening what he says about Mourinho and Greenwood, most of the fans still see him as an academy eating monster.
 

captaincantona

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You mean why shouldn't every armchair manager just rely on his own enormous expertise and instead pay attention to the opinion of someone who, in contrast to himself, has professional credentials and have actually worked with the coach in question on a daily basis?
Ok smart arse- so if I am a fan of football my opinions are only relevant if someone with credentials agrees? So, for example, I’m an ireland fan, I hated the style of football we played under Trapatoni and believed we should at least try and play the ball on the ground sometimes. I formed this opinion through going to every home game for 10 years- but many coaches who worked with Trapatoni said he was a genius! So I am not allowed to have my opinion because more qualified people (with whatever loyalties, agendas and subjectivity) say so? Trapatoni is no doubt a great coach but it doesn’t mean that his style, approach methods etc. Will translate to the pitch and to the fans. Not every great coach succeeds every where.

My post is not about whether Nicky Butts opinion is right or wrong. McKenna is obviously a good coach to get where he has gotten but that doesn’t change the fact that his “coaching” has done fuk all for Utd during his time here - the proof is on the pitch where every fan can see it and football ain’t so complicated as to say that only those with credentials can truly have valid opinions! Jesus generations of old men at their kitchen tables in Rio and Naples and Madrid who have observed their teams for decades can see when a team is playing well, when a manager is doing well, when there is harmony and passion around the club and the team buys into the vision! It shows on the pitch!

My post was about fans using metrics...fans seeming to take the word of pundits or ex professionals...fans desperately searching saying “we must be good because such and such says so and they are REALLY clever”...looking for whoever or whatever to reinforce their opinion that x or y is correct with regard to our Performances/coaching. These people are not mentioning the actual only evidence we ALL have access to...what happens on the pitch! I dare any fan on here to tell me we have generally been a well coached team and played good football for the last 4 years? We have played some awful stuff and counter attacking and sheer will power has dragged us to where we are.

So don’t be a smart arse...Nicky Butt is great guy and I love hearing him talk about United. I am also sure McKenna is a good coach and has “credentials” which you seem to value. Doesn’t make me feel any better about how we are being coached .Simple
 

justsomebloke

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It does seem like he got shafted a bit after supposedly brilliant work but I don't see much in the quotes to suggest much more than he's a bit pissed at the club.

On the McKenna quote, Butt was head of first team development and McKenna was U-18's manager for half of the time they crossed paths, we know he was an excellent youth coach and Butt would have a good eye for that but not sure we have any proof of him at the senior level bar what we see on the pitch and some vague quote (which I can't verify so please don't latch onto as a criticism) that players complained about his training methods not being 'continental', which conjures images of croissants, cured ham and sliced cheese for me but, anyway, we have no idea how good our coaching staff are and can only really judge by their end product, what we se on the pitch.
The thing about training methods being "not continental enough" (as I remember it it was actually about them being "too English" (images of roast beef, sausage rolls, Bovril and pints of large?) but I guess that comes down to the same thing) came up in the off-season of 19/20. Has been associated with Lukaku I think, but I'm not on firm ground there. In any case, that obviously connects to the emphasis on physical conditioning in that off-season, which was again a direct result of the obvious fitness issues that plagued the squad when OGS took over, and was a big factor in United''s late season collapse. Mourinho famously did not emphasise physical fitness, and the team was apparently in awful shape. I've not heard it complained about since.
 

justsomebloke

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Ok smart arse- so if I am a fan of football my opinions are only relevant if someone with credentials agrees? So, for example, I’m an ireland fan, I hated the style of football we played under Trapatoni and believed we should at least try and play the ball on the ground sometimes. I formed this opinion through going to every home game for 10 years- but many coaches who worked with Trapatoni said he was a genius! So I am not allowed to have my opinion because more qualified people (with whatever loyalties, agendas and subjectivity) say so? Trapatoni is no doubt a great coach but it doesn’t mean that his style, approach methods etc. Will translate to the pitch and to the fans. Not every great coach succeeds every where.

My post is not about whether Nicky Butts opinion is right or wrong. McKenna is obviously a good coach to get where he has gotten but that doesn’t change the fact that his “coaching” has done fuk all for Utd during his time here - the proof is on the pitch where every fan can see it and football ain’t so complicated as to say that only those with credentials can truly have valid opinions! Jesus generations of old men at their kitchen tables in Rio and Naples and Madrid who have observed their teams for decades can see when a team is playing well, when a manager is doing well, when there is harmony and passion around the club and the team buys into the vision! It shows on the pitch!

My post was about fans using metrics...fans seeming to take the word of pundits or ex professionals...fans desperately searching saying “we must be good because such and such says so and they are REALLY clever”...looking for whoever or whatever to reinforce their opinion that x or y is correct with regard to our Performances/coaching. These people are not mentioning the actual only evidence we ALL have access to...what happens on the pitch! I dare any fan on here to tell me we have generally been a well coached team and played good football for the last 4 years? We have played some awful stuff and counter attacking and sheer will power has dragged us to where we are.

So don’t be a smart arse...Nicky Butt is great guy and I love hearing him talk about United. Doesn’t make me feel any better about how we are being coached. Simple
If you think someone is a smart arse because he points out that you obviously know a lot less than Nicky Butt to enable you to judge how good Kieran McKenna is, then that emphasises my basic point: You have too much confidence in your own judgment, too little in that of a conflicting but obviously better qualified one.

And just because you think it's one or the other ("just watch the game and forget all about what Nicky Butt says"), that doesn't mean I do. So no, I'm obviously not arguing that as long as NB says KM is good, that means nothing else matters.
 

captaincantona

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Problem is you have to be alot better than mckenna to be his judge.

Put me in the same room with moyes I'd probably think he's a genious
This is bonkers! We are not talking about technically disecting McKennas approach and methods of coaching in order to identify whether or not he is actually a good coach. If that were the task then yes- we would need a coach of a higher level and experience to make that judgement. But let me ask you- why the fuk does that matter?

Mourinho - would you say there are many people on the planet who, by your criteria, could “judge” whether or not he is a good coach? But the world and it’s dog could see Mourinhos “coaching” was not cutting it at Man Utd and Spurs. Does that make him any less of a coach? Does that mean fans can’t say that he was poor at those clubs?

The only metric...the ONLY metric to asses a coach at the top level is to see, once given time, that their ideas and methods are bearing fruit on the pitch. We all can see that McKenna is part of a team that has had significantly longer than most to see their efforts bear fruit. They haven’t. It’s not to say he isn’t technically a great coach with good ideas- but what use is that if it has no effect on the way the team plays?
 
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tomaldinho1

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The thing about training methods being "not continental enough" (as I remember it it was actually about them being "too English" (images of roast beef, sausage rolls, Bovril and pints of large?) but I guess that comes down to the same thing) came up in the off-season of 19/20. Has been associated with Lukaku I think, but I'm not on firm ground there. In any case, that obviously connects to the emphasis on physical conditioning in that off-season, which was again a direct result of the obvious fitness issues that plagued the squad when OGS took over, and was a big factor in United''s late season collapse. Mourinho famously did not emphasise physical fitness, and the team was apparently in awful shape. I've not heard it complained about since.
Yep, all conjecture but this would not surprise me. Having said that, outside of our first team coaches the fitness/medical department has questions over it given Lukaku's digestion issue Inter supposedly found & there was another one I'm struggling to recall where we sold a player and they found an injury/issue.

Just read the article, would have loved to see Greenwood debut at 15 years old under Mou :lol:
 

captaincantona

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If you think someone is a smart arse because he points out that you obviously know a lot less than Nicky Butt to enable you to judge how good Kieran McKenna is, then that emphasises my basic point: You have too much confidence in your own judgment, too little in that of a conflicting but obviously better qualified one.

And just because you think it's one or the other ("just watch the game and forget all about what Nicky Butt says"), that doesn't mean I do. So no, I'm obviously not arguing that as long as NB says KM is good, that means nothing else matters.
Of course I know less than Nicky Butt about coaching! I never claimed otherwise!

My point is- we are horrible to watch 80% of the time. It’s the coaches job to improve how we play. McKenn is one of those coaches. If we play Leicester in the same way we have played 8 of our 9 games this season and the vast majority of last season- slow, ponderous, side to side, shots from distance...I won’t say to myself- it’s ok Nicky Butt says McKenna knows what he is doing so I am sure 4 years is not enough - he just needs another 4! I’ll say- we looked poor again today- I wonder what the fuk the coaching team are at!
 

bazza3727

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Don’t get these types of posts. So because Nicky Butt says Kieran McKenna is a good coach then that means he is a good coach?

People have eyes. Kieran McKenna has been a first team coach at Utd for 4 years during which, other than counter attacking football, Utd have played some of the slowest and uninspired football at any time in our history. I don’t care what anyone says because I have watched every single game myself...every one...and if he is a very very very good coach then I am sure we would have seen some evidence of that on the pitch. We haven’t. Maybe he is responsible for our counter attacking shape I don’t know...

Maybe he has great ideas and can’t get them across, maybe he is Nicky Butts mate, Maybe he is being held back too so Nicky Butt identifies with him and felt the need to big him up. Who knows?

What I do know is that a lot a lot of fans point toward metrics, goals scored, league finishes etc. When talking about this coaching team saying- “we must be good because of (x)”...now we’re are saying he must be good because someone who saw him coach says he is good?

How about just watching football? Any football fan of a decent age knows when they see a well drilled team. We are not a well drilled team, we have not been well drilled for a long time and our manager/coaches are solely responsible for that. Nicky Butts opinion on one of our coaches does not make me reconsider anything- I’ll just keeping watching the games.
LVG had the team well drilled and everyone thought the football played was crap and uninspiring! Mourinho drilled the team and folk were glad to see the back of him!
 

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LVG had the team well drilled and everyone thought the football played was crap and uninspiring! Mourinho drilled the team and folk were glad to see the back of him!
City under Pep is well-drilled and plays wonderful stuff! Liverpool under Klopp is well-drilled and goes toe to toe with any other team in the world! Chelsea under Tuchel is well-drilled and won the CL last season!
 

justsomebloke

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Very enlightening what he says about Mourinho and Greenwood, most of the fans still see him as an academy eating monster.
It's not just about who you give chances, it's also about the resources you invest into the academy and into stocking it with top talent. It's pretty well substantiated that Mourinho did not have that on his list of priorities.
 

CG1010

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If he's so damn good. Where's the result?
Who knows if he is actually good or not. And equally fans don't know if he is actually bad. The assumptions made are quite ridiculous and childish.

But I now know that atleast Nicky Butt thinks he is a good coach besides obviously people like Ole.
 

elmo

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It's not just about who you give chances, it's also about the resources you invest into the academy and into stocking it with top talent. It's pretty well substantiated that Mourinho did not have that on his list of priorities.
Pretty sure that's the job of the academy director and not the job for the manager of the first team.
 

Bubz27

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They started to call him Buttman and made him wear a full leather suit to training. Or so my sources tell me.
Matches up with the rest of the story so, yes. Most plausible scenario for sure.
 

justsomebloke

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Pretty sure that's the job of the academy director and not the job for the manager of the first team.
You think the academy manager decides the amount of resources that go into the academy, buying young players etc?
 

elmo

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You think the academy manager decides the amount of resources that go into the academy, buying young players etc?
You need to realise there's a difference between a director and a manager, because you're literally asking me about something irrelevant to what I posted.
 

NewGlory

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Don’t get these types of posts. So because Nicky Butt says Kieran McKenna is a good coach then that means he is a good coach?

People have eyes. Kieran McKenna has been a first team coach at Utd for 4 years during which, other than counter attacking football, Utd have played some of the slowest and uninspired football at any time in our history. I don’t care what anyone says because I have watched every single game myself...every one...and if he is a very very very good coach then I am sure we would have seen some evidence of that on the pitch. We haven’t. Maybe he is responsible for our counter attacking shape I don’t know...

Maybe he has great ideas and can’t get them across, maybe he is Nicky Butts mate, Maybe he is being held back too so Nicky Butt identifies with him and felt the need to big him up. Who knows?

What I do know is that a lot a lot of fans point toward metrics, goals scored, league finishes etc. When talking about this coaching team saying- “we must be good because of (x)”...now we’re are saying he must be good because someone who saw him coach says he is good?

How about just watching football? Any football fan of a decent age knows when they see a well drilled team. We are not a well drilled team, we have not been well drilled for a long time and our manager/coaches are solely responsible for that. Nicky Butts opinion on one of our coaches does not make me reconsider anything- I’ll just keeping watching the games.
All of that is fine and you are making good points, but please don't take it personally when somebody is asking a question and inviting opposing arguments. It's not an attack to quote an interesting article and ask if you agree and disagree. Thank you for sharing your thoughts
 

Regalia

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Don’t get these types of posts. So because Nicky Butt says Kieran McKenna is a good coach then that means he is a good coach?

People have eyes. Kieran McKenna has been a first team coach at Utd for 4 years during which, other than counter attacking football, Utd have played some of the slowest and uninspired football at any time in our history. I don’t care what anyone says because I have watched every single game myself...every one...and if he is a very very very good coach then I am sure we would have seen some evidence of that on the pitch. We haven’t. Maybe he is responsible for our counter attacking shape I don’t know...

Maybe he has great ideas and can’t get them across, maybe he is Nicky Butts mate, Maybe he is being held back too so Nicky Butt identifies with him and felt the need to big him up. Who knows?

What I do know is that a lot a lot of fans point toward metrics, goals scored, league finishes etc. When talking about this coaching team saying- “we must be good because of (x)”...now we’re are saying he must be good because someone who saw him coach says he is good?

How about just watching football? Any football fan of a decent age knows when they see a well drilled team. We are not a well drilled team, we have not been well drilled for a long time and our manager/coaches are solely responsible for that. Nicky Butts opinion on one of our coaches does not make me reconsider anything- I’ll just keeping watching the games.
I wouldn't get too bothered by it. People say all kinds of things all the time when asked stuff on the spot. What did you expect him to say? "McKenna's a useless git, can't really coach anyone but kids?". Proof of the pudding is in the eating. We've seen McKenna's hand in our games, and we know the dross it amounts to. He could also mean in the context of working with McKenna with the U-18s. He might have been good there but making the step up to coach professionals in the big league is a bit of a different story. It's a bit like Varane and CR7 making those comments about our training sessions being good a few weeks ago. Ole fans jumped on that immediately using it as irrevocable proof that we have elite training drills and our dressing room is the best in the world under Ole. Pays to keep in mind that the average footballer isn't very bright, and 50% of them are worse than that.
 

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I find the obsession with McKenna and Phelan etc a bit bizarre. It doesn't seem like anywhere else such credit or criticism is given to a football coach or an assistant. Where does it come from? Is it just a desperate measure to apportion blame, do some find satisfaction in bashing supporting staff as bashing Ole gets boring?

Man City aren't a wonderful team because of whoever the hell their first team coach is - do we even know or care? They are just a supplementary part of the manager's vision. So much so that it's hard to even dissect where the manager's influence begins and ends, and ultimately it doesn't matter a jot because the manager is the figurehead of responsibility tasked with employing these guys and setting the overall direction that the coaches work towards.

If these coaches all had the ability to create highly successful styles of play that win trophies they'd only be a step or two away from being the next great manager themselves. It's not that they've not got a part to play, they do and they are important to a manager but the point is getting stretched beyond all realms of sense.
 
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Karlos PFC

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Shhhh, Ole gives the youth chances, it's why he plays Rashford, Greenwood and Mctominay.
My apologies, forgot to mention that it takes a special manager to identify the hidden gem that Greenwood is.

But I now know that atleast Nicky Butt thinks he is a good coach besides obviously people like Ole.
I have a suspicion that most of the class of '92 thinks that Ole is a great coach.
Let's just hope none of his buddies tries to lure him to Salford
 

0le

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Did Nicky Butt Allude To Trouble at United?

No.
 

Sky1981

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I find the obsession with McKenna and Phelan etc a bit bizarre. It doesn't seem like anywhere else such credit or criticism is given to a football coach or an assistant. Where does it come from? Is it just a desperate measure to apportion blame, do some find satisfaction in bashing supporting staff as bashing Ole gets boring?

Man City aren't a wonderful team because of whoever the hell their first team coach is - do we even know or care? They are just a supplementary part of the manager's vision. So much so that it's hard to even dissect where the manager's influence begins and ends, and ultimately it doesn't matter a jot because the manager is the figurehead of responsibility tasked with employing these guys and setting the overall direction that the coaches work towards.

If these coaches all had the ability to create highly successful styles of play that win trophies they'd only be a step or two away from being the next great manager themselves. It's not that they've not got a part to play, they do and they are important to a manager but the point is getting stretched beyond all realms of sense.
Maybe because they quietly delivers result without anyone bigging them up ala McKenna.

We kept on hearing all the good things about him from his mate, but none then result.
 

Abraxas

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Maybe because they quietly delivers result without anyone bigging them up ala McKenna.

We kept on hearing all the good things about him from his mate, but none then result.
That's not really the narrative though, the actual state of affairs seems to be that forum goers have an unhealthy obsession with dissecting support staff and filling in the many blanks rather than simply acknowledging we don't know much about what they do. All of which tends towards the negative and not the positive. I don't think one soundbyte from Butt alters much.

It's okay to just live in uncertainty over something without forming a baseless opinion or believing that some tenuous correlation equals causation (performance on match day = supporting member of coaching staff). I've been in enough underperforming departments hamstrung by management or other issues to know you need pretty decent information to pluck out individual performance from an outcome influenced by many factors.

It is the manager that underpins all of the factors related to performance and that's why he is the chief, gets paid more, hires and fires these guys, makes the final decisions. I dunno why people aren't content with aiming their crosshairs in that direction!
 

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Not sure if it’s been mentioned but he’s doing a CEO course and learning Spanish. Clearly has ambition and didn’t want to hang around.
 

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Not sure if it’s been mentioned but he’s doing a CEO course and learning Spanish. Clearly has ambition and didn’t want to hang around.
Planning to rebrand as Nicolás Culo :drool: