Do we actually need to play with wingers?

shabz

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After yesterday's performance, both formations we used didn't utilise any wingers and I thought we played really well. We were able to utilise are wing backs well in the first 60 mins and then when the change in formation came we looked even better, again with no conventional width.

One thing this team has is midfielders and a couple world class ones at that. One thing we reallly dont have are wingers so why not play to our strengths and forget about what's worked for us before. The attacking philosophy can still be there and we were still able to create a lot of chances last night.

The main point for me is that Rashford and Martial play best when up top. Playing them together up top will cause nightmares for defenders in any competition and with some class service coming in from Bruno and Pogba we should get an abundance of chances and hopefully a lot more goals.
 
We should play to our strengths and aim to get the best out of what we have. We don't have any wingers, so we should stop trying to force the idea we need them or playing players in that role when it doesn't utilise their best attributes.
 
I thought we'd start the season playing with a diamond after we failed to sign Sancho but Ole seems happy to stick with his 4-2-3-1 as the standard setup.

The diamond and 3-5-2 were effective tonight but I can see it not working so well for the majority of games where we're playing vs teams setup to counter us. (Unless it means playing Greenwood as the right striker and one of Martial / Rashford being dropped.)
 
In short, yes. PSG played such a high line yesterday that one ball over the top from Bruno was all it took to play Martial or Rashford through.

We won't have such an easy time of it breaking down most Premier League sides who camp 10 men behind the ball, so we need good wide players to stretch the play.
 
Preferably yes. They add lots of fluidity balance and width to any side. But its also a good managers job to optimize the companies assets and drive towards results that are bigger then the sum of its individual parts.
 
CM10 said:
In short, yes. PSG played such a high line yesterday that one ball over the top from Bruno was all it took to play Martial or Rashford through.

We won't have such an easy time of it breaking down most Premier League sides who camp 10 men behind the ball, so we need good wide players to stretch the play.
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Exactly. I wouldn't fancy a team with only 4 attacking players to break down a stubborn, well marshalled Sheffield United defence.
 
I'd wait till we face a team that doesn't give us so much space like Newcastle and PSG did before deciding.
 
CM10 said:
In short, yes. PSG played such a high line yesterday that one ball over the top from Bruno was all it took to play Martial or Rashford through.

We won't have such an easy time of it breaking down most Premier League sides who camp 10 men behind the ball, so we need good wide players to stretch the play.
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Do we have any good wide players? What we have are very good central players and I think that something like this

-------------------De Gea
-----Tuanzebe----Maguire-----Shaw
AWB----------McTominay----------Telles
--------Bruno------------------Pogba
-----Martial----------------Rashford

is more deadly than the 4-2-3-1 we have been putting that just degenerates into sterile possession but vulnerable on the break because all our best players are isolated and some shoehorned into roles that don't suit them which unbalances the team. Under this formation the only player we would have out of his comfort zone would be AWB but imo the benefit of a Bruno + Pogba tandem behind Rashford and Martial is too much to handle even for packed defenses and that's before we account for quality crossing from Telles.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
I'd wait till we face a team that doesn't give us so much space like Newcastle and PSG did before deciding.
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It's not much different really considering all our wide players come inside anyway, our width always comes through the fullbacks.

I'd rather have Pogba and Fernandes out wide putting in crosses and through balls and letting Telles and AWB overlap than have Dan James stink the place out :lol:
 
We don't have any real wide players. Rashford and Greenwood are both better through the middle.
 
Regardless of the formation its usually AWB that tried to give us width from the right side,I like the diamond, it plays to the strength of our best players without loosing balance defensively,people have this weird idea that in the diamond every player but the fullbacks play centrally but its never the case,with the kind of forwards we have you'll get one drifting wide and the other attacking the box plus either your AM(Bruno) plus your most advanced CM(Pogba) supporting out wide on either flank,this guys are as creative out wide as any winger we could play plus we now have Telles who is a very good crosser of the ball and we wouldn't lack squad depth either
 
AneRu said:
Do we have any good wide players? What we have are very good central players and I think that something like this

-------------------De Gea———————
-----Tuanzebe----Maguire-----Shaw
AWB----------McTominay----------Telles
--------Bruno------------------Pogba
-————--Martial----Rashford————

is more deadly than the 4-2-3-1 we have been putting that just degenerates into sterile possession but vulnerable on the break because all our best players are isolated and some shoehorned into roles that don't suit them which unbalances the team. Under this formation the only player we would have out of his comfort zone would be AWB but imo the benefit of a Bruno + Pogba tandem behind Rashford and Martial is too much to handle even for packed defenses and that's before we account for quality crossing from Telles.
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considering the players we have, I agree with this approach.

I might go with Fred in McT place As we will have back 3 protection and Cavani/Greenwood coming from bench

-------------------De Gea
-----Tuanzebe----Maguire-----Shaw
AWB-------—--FRED——----------Telles
--------Bruno------------------Pogba
-----Martial----------------Rashford
 
AneRu said:
Do we have any good wide players? What we have are very good central players and I think that something like this

-------------------De Gea
-----Tuanzebe----Maguire-----Shaw
AWB----------McTominay----------Telles
--------Bruno------------------Pogba
-----Martial----------------Rashford

is more deadly than the 4-2-3-1 we have been putting that just degenerates into sterile possession but vulnerable on the break because all our best players are isolated and some shoehorned into roles that don't suit them which unbalances the team. Under this formation the only player we would have out of his comfort zone would be AWB but imo the benefit of a Bruno + Pogba tandem behind Rashford and Martial is too much to handle even for packed defenses and that's before we account for quality crossing from Telles.
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Maybe not as good as they should be but it's horses for courses. Playing 5 defenders against a team with attacking threats like Mbappe and Neymar makes sense but not so much against a midtable side.
 
shabz said:
After yesterday's performance, both formations we used didn't utilise any wingers and I thought we played really well. We were able to utilise are wing backs well in the first 60 mins and then when the change in formation came we looked even better, again with no conventional width.

One thing this team has is midfielders and a couple world class ones at that. One thing we reallly dont have are wingers so why not play to our strengths and forget about what's worked for us before. The attacking philosophy can still be there and we were still able to create a lot of chances last night.

The main point for me is that Rashford and Martial play best when up top. Playing them together up top will cause nightmares for defenders in any competition and with some class service coming in from Bruno and Pogba we should get an abundance of chances and hopefully a lot more goals.
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You only think this because PSG went for it and left gaps at the back. They missed Marquinhos, the best part of Verratti and Leandro Paredes. They basically didn't play their best team, not that I'm saying we wouldn't have won if they were present but all I'm saying is, we were able to play like we did because only their frontline bothered us a lot and the rest of their team was negligible. We definitely need to find a way to play 4-3-3 with wingers because only then can we expand/stretch the play and switch sides comfortably.
We kept it narrow and let our full backs do the work only because Ole knew full well that Neymar is the worst when it comes to doing his defensive duties and so is Di Maria. Mbappe is kind of someone who likes to receive the ball and do his thing as well. So basically PSG lost a lot in their midfield and we were able to press and recover the ball many many times. You will realize this when we play against Chelsea. But now I'm confident because Cavani, Telles, Axel and DVDB will be given their chances against Chelsea and they are all raring to go. We're going to thrash the fools that paid 250+ million to upgrade their team. :P
 
I still think 532 can work in the games against low block teams too. I see no reason why we can't use that formation to have Pogba, VDB and Bruno on the pitch at the same time. Say it's something like this:

------------------------De Gea
-------Tuanzebe------Maguire--------Shaw
AWB----------Pogba----------VDB--------------Telles
---------------------------Bruno
------------------Rashford------Martial

We can still attack with 2 players left back as you would in a back 4. Here being Maguire and Tuanzebe with Shaw having the freedom to attack. Tuanzebe has the pace to account for Maguire and Maguire has the ability on the ball. Tuanzebe and Shaw's pace allows us to push a bit further up the pitch and squeexe the other team in while we allow ourselves 3 creative players and finally have an actual crossing threat from Telles. Obviously this depends on Pogba doing his bit defensively but Bruno and VDB both work hard off the ball. Playing higher up should in theory allow us to win the ball back better from the front.

Tweak this for the big games like we did last season bringing in Fred and McTominay when needed. Only takes a couple of substitutes to change back to a 4231 if required too.
 
kidbob said:
I still think 532 can work in the games against low block teams too. I see no reason why we can't use that formation to have Pogba, VDB and Bruno on the pitch at the same time. Say it's something like this:

------------------------De Gea
-------Tuanzebe------Maguire--------Shaw
AWB----------Pogba----------VDB--------------Telles
---------------------------Bruno
------------------Rashford------Martial

We can still attack with 2 players left back as you would in a back 4. Here being Maguire and Tuanzebe with Shaw having the freedom to attack. Tuanzebe has the pace to account for Maguire and Maguire has the ability on the ball. Tuanzebe and Shaw's pace allows us to push a bit further up the pitch and squeexe the other team in while we allow ourselves 3 creative players and finally have an actual crossing threat from Telles. Obviously this depends on Pogba doing his bit defensively but Bruno and VDB both work hard off the ball. Playing higher up should in theory allow us to win the ball back better from the front.

Tweak this for the big games like we did last season bringing in Fred and McTominay when needed. Only takes a couple of substitutes to change back to a 4231 if required too.
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Interesting. I would definitely not go for it from the start, but we make two changes and Pogba + van de Beek can come in. Worth a try while we're chasing a result, seems relatively safe defensively too with those 3 CBs.
 
Adam-Utd said:
It's not much different really considering all our wide players come inside anyway, our width always comes through the fullbacks.

I'd rather have Pogba and Fernandes out wide putting in crosses and through balls and letting Telles and AWB overlap than have Dan James stink the place out :lol:
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If it's James on the right then feck no, play a diamond. However i think last season where we had Rashford Martial Greenwood Bruno Pogba in a 4-2-3-1 we didn't have a problem breaking down a low block. If we want to play without a winger we'd have to remove one of our front three for a defender or midfielder and I don't see how that's more beneficial
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
If it's James on the right then feck no, play a diamond. However i think last season where we had Rashford Martial Greenwood Bruno Pogba in a 4-2-3-1 we didn't have a problem breaking down a low block. If we want to play without a winger we'd have to remove one of our front three for a defender or midfielder and I don't see how that's more beneficial
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I dont see Martial/Rashford/Greenwood/Pogba being any less creative than Greenwood/Rashford/martial/Fernandes personally.

I guess what i'm trying to say is we don't HAVE to have speed out wide to be effective, and Pogba / Fernandes are hardly slow either. With well timed passes they're more than athetic enough to get in behind, Fernandes did it a few times against PSG.
 
sp_107 said:
considering the players we have, I agree with this approach.

I might go with Fred in McT place As we will have back 3 protection and Cavani/Greenwood coming from bench

-------------------De Gea
-----Tuanzebe----Maguire-----Shaw
AWB-------—--FRED——----------Telles
--------Bruno------------------Pogba
-----Martial----------------Rashford
Click to expand...
I think this might work too.
 
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