Do you always need a stopper-sweeper combo?

Physiocrat

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I have pretty much always taken it as a given that a stopper sweeper combo in a back four is optimal as it allows one defender to focus on being more aggressive whilst the other reads the play from a little deeper and intercepts.

However I was thinking unless you are going with a man to man marking it is the striker who will determine who he comes up against rather than the defender, so that division of labour above isn't going to work.

I can understand why you would want a tall, strong defender when you're up against Christian Vieri but working as a general concept the stopper doesn't seem to be that important.

Could you have two sweepers then? I think it would depend how good their passing or how good they are bringing the ball out of defence. If the CB is excellent at either of those you want the other CB to pass it to them and let them do their thing rather than restricting their time on the ball. So Scriea and Der Kaiser would be silly but Der Kaiser and Rio (depending on the opposition) makes in principle sense.

This is an issue that comes up in match threads so I was wondering what were everyone's thoughts on the matter.
 
Depends on opponent formation and tactics. If they are playing a 2 striker formation then a sweeper stopper combo is fully utilized. If facing a 4231 the DM gets priority so even 2 stoppers should do good.

Other consideration is ability to build from back and/or get ball out if defense. Having a sweeper helps a lot.

Having 2 sweepers is not optimal as they overlap and not complement each other. In theory if you have 2 GOAT players they should adapt, but I'd still not prefer to do that.

I presume we're talking about a sweeper being a ball playing defender and not a libero.
 
sweeper sweeper is probably the only pair id remove from the book. Two stoppers you can probably sneak in for a very defensive setup, other then that its a sweeper stopper combo or a complete CB + sweeper/stopper.
 
Physiocrat said:
@Edgar Allan Pillow

Why wouldn't Ferdinand and Der Kaiser complement each other in a zonal defence?
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im not edgar nor am i exactly a source of a distilled football knowledge but sweeper is the one that controls the defence and you cant have 2 guys doing it, its not even connected with the way they are defending(though thats an issue as well) or what they do on the ball.
Controlling the line, when to drop back when to push up etc. its all done by a sweeper.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
sweeper sweeper is probably the only pair id remove from the book. Two stoppers you can probably sneak in for a very defensive setup, other then that its a sweeper stopper combo or a complete CB + sweeper/stopper.
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I'm thinking that many of the players we think of sweepers are actually complete CBs.

I get your point about organisation although as long as they decide who organises the defence it shouldn't be a problem in principle
 
Physiocrat said:
I'm thinking that many of the players we think of sweepers are actually complete CBs.

I get your point about organisation although as long as they decide who organises the defence it shouldn't be a problem in principle
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thats why i said complete centerback is fine alongside a stopper if he can lead the line.

As for organisation, whats the point of having Rio/Kaiser/Baresi or who ever if you dont use him to full potential? Its just a waste and id even say most of them wouldnt be able to change their game. Its like saying to Messi you cant dribble today.
 
I've done the double sweeper a few times and been hounded for it every time.

I personally don't see a problem with it really. Probably as you say, 2 extreme sweepers would likely clash, but 2 ball playing CBs I don't see a problem with, especially in possession based system.

As for it always being the sweeper that organises I'd say in modern combinations that isn't always the case and infact it seems much the opposite nowadays.

Vidic and Rio
Terry and Carvalho
Puyol and Pique

The one barking orders the most their is mostly the Stopper, with the ball playing one covering them.
 
Physiocrat said:
I'm thinking that many of the players we think of sweepers are actually complete CBs.
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Semantics. There's been way too many terms to describe the players.

Defensive Sweeper - Last man on the line often plays behind the defense (Picchi)
Stopper - Defend first. (Gentile, Kh Forster, Vidic)
Ball playing CB / Complete CB - Good defensively, able to step out of line, can get ball out of defence. (Rio, Baresi, Nesta, Moore, McGrath, Scirea etc)
Libero/Sweeper - Good defensively but can contribute to attack consistently through the match. (Kaizer, Sammer, Passarella)
Attacking - Needs defensive support, but do a good deal offensively. David Luiz.

Lots of overlaps depending on how you define them. There's no standard definition. Baresi is usually called sweeper, because he's probably the only players who transcends that line. But imo, he's still a ball playing CB.

You can pair of ball playing CB with anyone or another of same type. They are flexible. Two stoppers, to a extent if you are playing defensively. Two sweepers, probably not a good idea.


Not sure why it's not used, but same can apply to fullback too.

Stopper - Maldini, VR Andrade
Ball playing / Compete - Brehme, Zanetti, Cafu, Thuram, Facchetti, Evra, Cole
Attacking- Alves, Suurbier, Zambrotta
 
I guess my overarching ideological concern with 2 sweepers in the same lineup is that I view even one of them as a keystone player (i.e. someone who has a disproportionately large structural effect on his immediate environment as well as the fabric of the team), so pairing 2 of them is not dissimilar to putting 2 proper registas (like Xavi and old Scholes) or 2 enganches (take your pick) or 2 deep-lying architects (like Redondo and Pirlo) in the same starting XI.

Could they coexist, particularly in a niche zonal scheme that is ultra refined and detail-oriented? Sure, why not — we can't summarily disregard all possibilities, without actually putting things into practice to draw conclusions. Could they even do well as a duo? Perhaps, if their communication and interpersonal chemistry is on-point, and they have a broad enough palette of qualities and physical capabilities as defenders (like Figueroa and Nesta and Ferdinand, who would be fairly balanced and complete as conventional centerbacks).

But is there a distinct possibility that will have to make unnecessary concessions in their game to avoid influence-related or instinctual overlaps? Yes, without a doubt — that right there is the snag, as you would ideally want to exploit a wide range of qualities and optimize the scheme to extract the absolute best in the players at your disposal, especially if they had a magisterial presence and unique organisational eccentricities that shouldn't be stymied (this aspect will hold true for a lot of sweepers/liberos).

In comparison, the age-old diamond backline, while passé, makes intuitive sense as responsibilities are well distributed, and overlaps are minimized by virtue of the scheme — as well as the contrasting individual characteristics/tendencies of the players. You could even argue that a pair of stoppers are more likely to do succeed than a pair of sweepers, especially if they are placed in a conservative and cagey ecosystem (like hypothetically Godín and Stam/Desailly/Vierchowod under Cholo).
 
Physiocrat said:
@Synco Any thoughts?
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As I see it, a classic sweeper/stopper combo mostly makes sense in a man-marking system with clearly distinguished roles. In a zonal defense, I guess it makes sense for both CBs to be as complete as possible, as defenders and on the ball. A player may have to compensate for his partner's weaknesses and limitations, but that's not quite the same.

One setup where I can imagine a sweeper/sweeper combo making sense is a full-on possession/counterpressing system, where ball control is the main offensive and defensive weapon, and defending mostly means intercepting behind the pressing formation. Having two great CB playmakers allows for more directness from the back without turnovers, speeds up ball circulation, forcing the opposition defense to adapt and shift quicker (which is the standard means to break them down). Perhaps Beckenbauer/Baresi might actually work great for these tactics?

Generally, I'm not a huge fan of these formulas ("you need a sweeper/stopper combo", "two BTB's/two stoppers don't work", etc.) in draft discussions. I think it's best to look at each matchup individually: Setup & playing style, the qualities of the individual players (not shoehorning them too much into "player types"), the setup & style of the opposition.

For example, if the opposition presses and systematically aims to isolate the "stopper", that player needs to be good on the ball - textbook sweeper/stopper combo or not. Or punting the ball and likely ceding possession that way has to be a plausible part of the game plan, at least.
 
@Synco you realize stopper is a term for the style of defending? It has nothing to do with player ability on the ball, same applies for sweepers as well.
 
Thanks @Sun

I broadly agree with that. In possession heavy styles two sweeper/ball playing CBs are likely to be very useful.

Even in this Utd side we don't really have a stopper. I suppose Maguire is more than Lindelof but he's actually quite good going forward as seen in his role at LCB for England in the World Cup. Now is he a sweeper, probably not
 
Šjor Bepo said:
@Synco you realize stopper is a term for the style of defending? It has nothing to do with player ability on the ball, same applies for sweepers as well.
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Yes, and that's the only way it truly makes sense to use these terms. But in this forum it is used in a murky way for player types outside of man-marking defenses as well. I kind of refer to both, but my post is actually meant as a criticism of the sweeper/stopper mantra outside of a man-marking system (i.e. exact tactical roles). Seems to not have come across that way.
 
The vast majority of stoppers and sweepers merged into all-round centre-halves about 25 years ago. Rule changes and the shift from man to zonal marking the catalyst, and then furthered again over the last 12 years with the advent of shorter possession football seeing a vast reduction in long balls lumped up for centre-halves to attack in the air.

So I think the question is more relevant to players from previous eras who struggled without having the support of a physically dominating stopper or a brainy sweeper.
 
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