Do you believe the last 20 years has seen the best players in football history?

[Bobski]

@Bobski All those players were not peaking at the same time in 98. And a lot of those guys have had up and down seasons like Lukaku and Morata. In 20 years people might just look at all the goals scored by Lukaku and say he was a great player but, in this day and age he gets Youtube video compilations of all his bad touches. That was not really done in the past. And with Morate in 20 years people might look back at all the trophies he won and say he was a great player. Also, regardless how the rest of his career goes I think Lyon will always hold Lacazette in high regard.

That is fair. Don't take me wrong, the 3 modern guys are all fine players in their own right, I just look at the depth in that area and it compares favourably with now IMO. Probably quite a few of the earlier names would be playing wide forward if they came through now, which muddies the comparisons a little.

Kept me amused while I have been babysitting tonight, checked out a few vids of those guys, Italy produced some fun strikers in that period, Signori and Chiesa 2 of my favourites to watch.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

That is fair. Don't take me wrong, the 3 modern guys are all fine players in their own right, I just look at the depth in that area and it compares favourably with now IMO. Probably quite a few of the earlier names would be playing wide forward if they came through now, which muddies the comparisons a little.

Kept me amused while I have been babysitting tonight, checked out a few vids of those guys, Italy produced some fun strikers in that period, Signori and Chiesa 2 of my favourites to watch.

That is probably the key the striker depth looks better in the past since less teams play with two up front.

 

[Camilo]

technique is timeless.

Spend enough time practicing + having natural talents that are related to the sport means the highest level. Of any era. Cruyff, Garrincha and Best would annihilate any modern player in dribbling for example. Technique doesn't change.

Just not true. Technique absolutely changes. Athletes from the 60s and 70s thought their techniques were perfect, and yet their world records have all long since gone.

The footballers of the 60s almost certainly will have had equivalent talent to today's footballers - talent is timeless - but the ability of today's footballer is light years ahead.

 

[Bobski]

That is probably the key the striker depth looks better in the past since less teams play with two up front.

Possibly, and we don't really have old style wingers anymore, they have to score goals first, create second. Who do you compare the likes of Giggs and Figo to, 2 of the worlds best wide players over a 10-15 year period but they were 1 in 5 in terms of their goal ratio.

Talent finds a way though, and we can see this cross generational comparisons in players who have long careers. People like Giggs/Scholes/Zanetti/Totti were exceptional in the 90's against guys who had started in the 80's through to the early 2010's against players who are still playing now, even aged, physically diminished their technique and ability allowed them to excel.

 

[groovyalbert]

I'd say that the late 90s/early 2000s had the best spread of players across the big teams, and that Messi and Ronaldo may well be the two best players to have played the game. But there's no way Best, Cruyff, Maradona and Pele wouldn't have been up there with the best even now.

Also, from a defensive/goalkeepers perspective, we've experienced way better in the past than we currently have.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The standard of players in every sport is vastly superior today than it was in the 60s and 70s and football is no different. I think players like Muller, Pele, Best, Beckenbauer would struggle at Championship level if they played today.

Really bad WUM attempt

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I'd say that the late 90s/early 2000s had the best spread of players across the big teams, and that Messi and Ronaldo may well be the two best players to have played the game. But there's no way Best, Cruyff, Maradona and Pele wouldn't have been up there with the best even now.

Also, from a defensive/goalkeepers perspective, we've experienced way better in the past than we currently have.

I think what clubs expect from has just changed. I think the touch and passing ability of defenders and goalkeepers have improved over the years. Also I think some people still think of a dominant CB as someone just heading balls out the box and CBs these days have less chance of having those type of performances.

 

[SpyLuke10]

I still the the best players in history before say 1990 would be world class today, I just think that they would be like about Eriksen - Griezmann level just for example, players like pele that is. For me there is honestly who even comes close to Messi and Ronaldo overall and in their prime, Brazilian Ronaldo perhaps.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Olden games did not have substitutions.

The ball was leather, heavier esp wet to an extent heading it caused injuries.

The game was far rougher.

Despite the nutrition and training, the prima donnas of modern football would never survive in olden times.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Olden games did not have substitutions.

The ball was leather, heavier esp wet to an extent heading it caused injuries.

The game was far rougher.

Despite the nutrition and training, the prima donnas of modern football would never survive in olden times.

Why do you think modern players would not be able to adapt? Do you think the olden players would be able to adapt to modern times?

 

[Nanook]

Really bad WUM attempt

Stanley Mathews won the Balon D’or aged 41 in 1956. If you put Stanley Mathews from 1956 in in today’s game do you think he’d be one of the best in the world?

 

[Bobski]

You can trace a players lineage back. Messi played with Ronaldinho who played with Ronaldo who played with Romario who played with Bebeto who played with Zico who played with Socrates who played with Jairzinho who played with Pele.

How many of those connections would you skip before suggesting a player could not translate their game? Could Romario not adapt to today, or would it be Zico?

Rambling time, bloody kids.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Stanley Mathews won the Balon D’or aged 41 in 1956. If you put Stanley Mathews from 1956 in in today’s game do you think he’d be one of the best in the world?

Yes. Football is talent based. Having conditioning helps in enhancing but pure talent always shines through. If you magically take a Pele or Cruyff or Beckenbauer and put them in today's game, they'd still be something special.

Matthews is a great example as he's a pioneer of conditioning. He was decades ahead of the rest of players in his era in this aspect and closest to modern methods. Teetotaler, excellent diet, physically fit to extent he used to train with lead boots to gain strength so playing in football boots is easier.

 

[Bobski]

One last post on this subject, and it will involve one of our own. Bobby Charlton.


I remember being linked to that vid a few years back and being stunned at the range of his game. Had listened to the stories and assumed that Best was the real genius and the rest were more functional. Then watched the video of Charlton and was totally blown away, what can't he do? 2 amazing feet, shooting power, passing range and accuracy, goal scoring. Knew to expect that, then watch him him run past people with the ball like a winger selling feints and body swerves, great in the air, could tackle. That guy learned his game in the 50's yet has what looks to be the most rounded skill-set for an attacker possible.

Advise to watch the vid, fantastic, whoever made it did a hell of a job.

 

[Nanook]

Yes. Football is talent based. Having conditioning helps in enhancing but pure talent always shines through. If you magically take a Pele or Cruyff or Beckenbauer and put them in today's game, they'd still be something special.

Matthews is a great example as he's a pioneer of conditioning. He was decades ahead of the rest of players in his era in this aspect and closest to modern methods. Teetotaler, excellent diet, physically fit to extent he used to train with lead boots to gain strength so playing in football boots is easier.

So Dixie Dean would be as good as Lewandowski and Kane? The Preston unbeaten team of the 1880s would be as good as Arsenal’s 2003/04 team?

 

[Keeps It tidy]

So Dixie Dean would be as good as Lewandowski and Kane? The Preston unbeaten team of the 1880s would be as good as Arsenal’s 2003/04 team?

I generally on your side of this argument but, you really are not helping yourself here.

 

[Nanook]

I generally on your side of this argument but, you really are not helping yourself here.

Why? He thinks Matthews who was born in 1915 would be just as good as the best modern players. Dean was born 8 years earlier in 1907.

 

[Retrokicks]

We've seen a handful of outstanding players over the past 2 decades (Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Messi, Ronaldo). True greats have something you can't learn and it really doesn't matter which era they're from.

I saw an old interview with Peter Shilton when he spoke of a time that Forest played (I think) Olympiakos in the European cup. At the time they were managed by a chubby looking man, who must have been well into his fifties. During a training session, Shilton watched in amazement as this man nonchalantly scored from every angle with jaw dropping accuracy, - no one could stop him, it was apparently amazing!

I can just imagine a bystander asking who the hell that was, only to be told: Ferenc Puskas!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

So Dixie Dean would be as good as Lewandowski and Kane? The Preston unbeaten team of the 1880s would be as good as Arsenal’s 2003/04 team?

You're forgetting tactical evolution here. A old team playing WM or 235 will lose to a modern 442 or 433 or 4231. Not purely because of player quality. But a Pele's 1970 Brazil or Cruyff's 1974 Netherlands or Beckenbauer's 1974 Germany would give any modern team a run for their money.... despite players born in 50s and older.

 

[Baby Groot]

No, I think not. If anything we tend to overrate present times. We are helped lot in that regard because of those artificial post-1992 PL records. But It doesn't take much digging to find out that Alan Sharer is not the top all time scorer in history of English Football but Jimmy Greaves who scored 291 goals, compared to sharer 283 and for single season record. Alan Sharer scored one season 34 tited with Andy Cole. Is this the highest single season record? no some digging at its wooping 60 goals set some 90 years go in 1928 set by Dixie Dean.

 

[Champagne Football]

For me no player has come near Messi's level. He has set the bar to a whole new level. Pele was the best of his generation. Maradona equalled the level Pele got to. Zidane, CR7, Ronaldinho came close to those two. But Messi has raised the level to a level never seen before. During the period where he won 4 POTY awards in a row is when he reached his peak.

 

[Nanook]

You're forgetting tactical evolution here. A old team playing WM or 235 will lose to a modern 442 or 433 or 4231. Not purely because of player quality. But a Pele's 1970 Brazil or Cruyff's 1974 Netherlands or Beckenbauer's 1974 Germany would give any modern team a run for their money.... despite players born in 50s and older.

I completely disagree, you put that Brazil 1970 team against the current England team and they’d lose 5-0 and would probably have 30% possession.

 

[Baby Groot]

I find this hard to analyze. The footballs then were so much heavier compared to the light ones now that spins around and doing u-turns in the air. It's easier now for the players to run with the ball at high speed etc.

And here's your answer, I'm willing to bet Ronaldo and Messi wouldn't be able to hack it in those conditions. Those lether ball wouldn't just spin in the air and fall into the goal on commands.

 

[Baby Groot]

Messi and Cristiano are the two best of all time next to Duncan Edwards.

Fixed for you and Edwards sadly never reached his peak.

 

[Baby Groot]

I really never understood the idea people have that making a lot of money will somehow make you a worse Footballer. Especially since the Clubs with the highest wage bills win everything.

I'm going to make an argument that average and bellow average clubs today are worse now than in late 90s. Given since 2010s each league winner has hit around 90 points or over to win the title.

 

[11101]

The standard of players in every sport is vastly superior today than it was in the 60s and 70s and football is no different. I think players like Muller, Pele, Best, Beckenbauer would struggle at Championship level if they played today.

If you lifted Pele straight out of 1970 and dropped him in this summer's World Cup then yes, he'd be awful. If he was somehow born in 1995 and had the opportunity to grow up with modern training methods it wouldn't be Messi everyone talks about anymore.

 

[Darwin09]

The standard of players in every sport is vastly superior today than it was in the 60s and 70s and football is no different. I think players like Muller, Pele, Best, Beckenbauer would struggle at Championship level if they played today.

Pele, Muller and Beckenbauer would struggle because they are over 70 years old. Best would really struggle to even get a place in the squad.

 

[Hamadovich86]

In terms of pure athleticism I think theres no doubt that today's players are much more athletic. Sports science, intensive training and nutrition all factor into that. In terms of ability I would say today's crop of players as a collective might be the greatest ever. There are more great players spread out at different clubs from different countries than there was before.

 

[montpelier]

One last post on this subject, and it will involve one of our own. Bobby Charlton.


I remember being linked to that vid a few years back and being stunned at the range of his game. Had listened to the stories and assumed that Best was the real genius and the rest were more functional. Then watched the video of Charlton and was totally blown away, what can't he do? 2 amazing feet, shooting power, passing range and accuracy, goal scoring. Knew to expect that, then watch him him run past people with the ball like a winger selling feints and body swerves, great in the air, could tackle. That guy learned his game in the 50's yet has what looks to be the most rounded skill-set for an attacker possible.

Advise to watch the vid, fantastic, whoever made it did a hell of a job.

if you go for best long range shooters as a category for this debate

Charlton, Scholes, Gerrard would take some beating as a group - and Bobby would be hitting the wimpy ball they use now nowadays at God knows what kind of speed

 

[montpelier]

honestly though, if you're on the side of ''recency'' in this debate because you don't think the old timers could play much, you're are talking out of your bottoms basically.

Let's line a few of today's players up & see how many of them could hit the van Basten volley anywhere near close, Banks's save from Pele's header stands up fairly well, as does Pele's leap to head the ball in the first place, Eusebio looks like a pretty good athlete to me on film, but give me Lukaku any day... he's so much better.

Messi has done feck all at a couple of World Cups, Maradona won one & even more remarkably placed a terrible team 2nd, somehow or other - and mainly ''on his own''.

Ronaldinho would have been clogged into oblivion standing still like he did quite a lot & I rate as ''no chance'' that his skills would be transferring to the big heavy ball era... he'd get slaughtered

Quite an easy WUM this, innit - .

 

[Motorman]

If you can teletransport the great players of fifties or so, a lot of them would not be able to even play in a top league. The difference in training, diet, medicine and tactics is immense. I think that any EPL club would embarrass with ease the likes of Brazil 1970.

If you look in sports when you can measure exactly how good players are (mostly on swimming and athletics) you see how bad the records of 50 years ago stand. There is no reason to suggest that it is different in football. I mean if players have better everything, they necessarily will be better than their counterparts.

Now, if the likes of Pele or Di Stefano were born 30 years ago and had all the perks that modern players had, that is a different debate. But if we go by absolute skills, then it isn't even close.

This post saves me typing out my own as this is how I see things too.

 

[montpelier]

Troy Deeney doesn't look like he could trap a bag of cement (good hit, mind).

How on earth does he get to play at pro level these days?

 

[KirkDuyt]

Yes, better training, better diet, better everything. All sports evolve, it’s clearly visible in things like running / speed skating , everything time. It’s not that there’s more talent, sports evolve with technology.

 

[harms]

Saying that defenders from 70s and 80s were not tackling like today - please watch this -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfuD282WiWM I can only imagine if this happens during a game nowadays. I doubt that it will finish at all.

Great video, especially the choice of music

 

[harms]

Of course, what I’d say is George Best is a ‘greater’ player than Lingard but if you’re comparing who is better, Best in the 60s vs Lingard today then the answer is obviously Lingard.

Worst post of the year, if not of the whole century.

Seriously, after a decade dominated by midgets like Messi, Xavi and Iniesta people are arguing that Pele doesn't have the physique to compete today?

 

[goons]

The standard of players in every sport is vastly superior today than it was in the 60s and 70s and football is no different. I think players like Muller, Pele, Best, Beckenbauer would struggle at Championship level if they played today.

I'm sure you are just trolling but this is the most stupid thing I've ever read on a football forum.

 

[Fortitude]

Common sense? Coaching at all levels are better, discipline is better, the physical shape of players is better, facilities to train are better. That all breeds better players.

As for the top level, not really quantifiable since each person's definition of a top player is different and no one has lived through all the eras.

Common sense is highly subjective, though, but I'll take your point as to not be pedantic.

There are schools of thought that say a lot of technique is and has been lost because street football is no longer honing players and teaching them how to adapt on the fly. The average player may be better drilled at what these coaches want them to do - system players - but things are getting lost along the way, which is where autonomy has found a footing in the football we now see and expression and creativity has taken a backseat. Does that make for better, or simply different? Does it raise the bar for the average player or just make them more capable in certain areas.

When it's said that the average has gone up, uniformity, or, universal improvement is implied. I just don't see a tangible set of metrics that support such a view. I also think it's a very easy way to sidestep comparison because it would be assumed a given that doesn't need further exploration or examination.

 

[Fortitude]

Worst post of the year, if not of the whole century.

Seriously, after a decade dominated by midgets like Messi, Xavi and Iniesta people are arguing that Pele doesn't have the physique to compete today?

I raised this point and it was swept under the rug with nobody offering a counter before just continuing on with the same rhetoric they've got set in stone in their minds.

 

[Fortitude]

One last post on this subject, and it will involve one of our own. Bobby Charlton.


I remember being linked to that vid a few years back and being stunned at the range of his game. Had listened to the stories and assumed that Best was the real genius and the rest were more functional. Then watched the video of Charlton and was totally blown away, what can't he do? 2 amazing feet, shooting power, passing range and accuracy, goal scoring. Knew to expect that, then watch him him run past people with the ball like a winger selling feints and body swerves, great in the air, could tackle. That guy learned his game in the 50's yet has what looks to be the most rounded skill-set for an attacker possible.

Advise to watch the vid, fantastic, whoever made it did a hell of a job.

Thanks for this. Charlton was a marvel yet to be surpassed amongst Englishmen.

 

[balaks]

The standard of players in every sport is vastly superior today than it was in the 60s and 70s and football is no different. I think players like Muller, Pele, Best, Beckenbauer would struggle at Championship level if they played today.

What a load of nonsense.