Rio, Scholes and Hargreaves don't think many are arsed about losing (incl ole) except a few like bruno and cavani.
Does losing hurt United enough?
- Thread starter VidaRed
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These three haven’t a clue to be fair.
They all said we would thump them at the start of the game, at half time, before extra time and again at penalties.
Rio thinks he knows because he pops into Carrington every now and then, makes a few jokes and then leaves.
I love Scholes the player but he doesn’t know any of the playing staff really. He talks a lot and isn’t a great pundit.
Hargreaves is, well, Hargreaves... Not sure what weight his opinion holds.
They all flip from ‘we are making great progress and Ole is doing well’ to ‘the mentality is shite, they don’t care about losing and Ole is under pressure’ within the space of a single game... reminds me of this place.
Why wouldn't it hurt ?
Rashford, Scott and Greenwood are academy products. Bruno, Cavani and Pogba are all winners (And Pogba is also an academy product). De Gea has been here for 10 years. I don't see why a loss in a final won't feel like shit for them.
This isn't our problem.
The problem is we crumble under pressure and when we're close to actually win something. It's a mentality issue.
Rashford, Scott and Greenwood are academy products. Bruno, Cavani and Pogba are all winners (And Pogba is also an academy product). De Gea has been here for 10 years. I don't see why a loss in a final won't feel like shit for them.
This isn't our problem.
The problem is we crumble under pressure and when we're close to actually win something. It's a mentality issue.
Spot on.
Yeah I'm sure a professional sportsman doesn't care about losing...
One of the least issues we have.
One of the least issues we have.
Though I agree, the reason seems to be that Ole hasn’t proven he can win trophies per se. If that was say Pep or Klopp last night most would just write it off as a bad result but we seem to make SF and can’t kick on them when we do we can’t beat a team that too be fair is decent at best.
Ole has improved us and there is no doubt and his job isn’t under pressure but a lot of the Caf think he hasn’t got the ability to take us to the next level even with signings and I agree.
Where I stand with Ole is that I feel he has done a good job steadying us and has put us in a better position than any manager over the last few years I still feel if we even matched City’s squad he wouldn’t be able to give us silverware. I might be wrong but it’s how I feel
The question should be does the fecking board care about us losing or not? We'll find it out this window.
The better question would be after losing do we adapt and improve enough? Do we actually correct the mistakes and try to prevent future losing?
I never really pointed to other fellow Caf members, but honestly when I saw people giving our season rating of 6,7 even 8 out of 10, I thought that perhaps I stomach those important loses worse than some. I just can't look past not fecking making it in the finals, semi finals, games that matter. They surely hurt me enough to be a bit unable to enjoy the good moments of the season.
I am at the point where I think the answer to this question was out there for a long while already. top4 and they're happy, as simple as that
I think if Ole's job was under threat going into the final, we'd have won. Too often we seem to need external stimuli to get us going.
What really matters is losing doesn't affect the club enough.....
So we don't ever try to improve enough to stop it
So we don't ever try to improve enough to stop it
I keep seeing stuff like this, including some genius in another thread claiming Neville has a poor and overly theoretical 'understanding of the game, then going on to claim poor Poggers and Martial are suffering and that Bruno is an immature footballer. They may be prone to hyperbole and looking for things to criticise or praise (it's their job), but in reality they're retired elite footballers who've spent multiple decades of time at this club between them. Whether you agree with them or not, their opinions are far more valid and rooted in deep experience than random gimps on their phone posting nonsense for the sake of it. If you want to hear some insight on Manchester United would you ask Rio fecking Ferdinand or RUCK4444 on the caf? Mmmmm.... Jesus
It will when in the future when all of us are gone and the young don't give a feck about utd.
My 8 years old nephew watches football said 'me who the feck is utd, they're shit' when he asked me who i support and i said utd. Tbf we haven't done anything of note during his entire existence on this earth.
Exactly, there's no real urgency to win from the owners and that indiference permeates into the manager and squad. They talk and talk and talk about how is not good enough how we must be better, etc but at the end of the day they know their jobs are not on the line. No real preassure.
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Another 10-15 years like this and they'll know.
Your 8 year old nephew sounds harder than our cb's - is he left footed?
Personally I don't mind Hargreaves.
They talk about lack of winning mentality being the reason we didn't win the final. What they're clearly missing is the final was a reflection of the same old weaknesses we've shown throughout the season.
1. We gift teams cheap goals and set piece goals even in games where the opposition haven't even tried to threaten us
2. We can't break teams down in a low block
We have the worst set piece defensive record in the league this year, and in 8 league games we failed to score a single goal. The team just isn't that good. This performance in the final wasn't a one-off in the slightest. I am not worried about the player's bottle in big moments because they quite often fail when there's no pressure also... They just need to get better - they need better players in some positions and better coaching. The trophies will come when the team improves overall.
1. We gift teams cheap goals and set piece goals even in games where the opposition haven't even tried to threaten us
2. We can't break teams down in a low block
We have the worst set piece defensive record in the league this year, and in 8 league games we failed to score a single goal. The team just isn't that good. This performance in the final wasn't a one-off in the slightest. I am not worried about the player's bottle in big moments because they quite often fail when there's no pressure also... They just need to get better - they need better players in some positions and better coaching. The trophies will come when the team improves overall.
This. People are trying to add complexity to a problem that is pretty glaringly simple.
United since Fergie left, have accepted mediocre performances and rewarded such.
It started when we drew with Fulham and Moyes went on about us creating 22 crosses like it was the equivalent of doing the treble.
The club is rotten right now and that is what will always be Ed's Legacy.
It started when we drew with Fulham and Moyes went on about us creating 22 crosses like it was the equivalent of doing the treble.
The club is rotten right now and that is what will always be Ed's Legacy.
Pointing to a lack of mentality, hunger or desire is the refuge of pundits who don't have anything more insightful to say.
Of course it hurt the players and the manager. Did it look like they had fun losing a final they were supposed to win? It was painful to watch, let alone be involved in.
Of course it hurt the players and the manager. Did it look like they had fun losing a final they were supposed to win? It was painful to watch, let alone be involved in.
He does have boy band looks, and that accent ...
It’s called being controversial!
I'll turn this question around and say, does losing the hurt the fanbase enough?
Compared to the real big clubs of European football, we have the most passive fanbase around. That reflects in the clubs mentality. It's just lucky the club had a massively ambitious and driven manager in Alex Ferguson, who's drive superceded the lacklustre fanbase. But without him, the club and the fanbase are just "happy to take part".
Compared to the real big clubs of European football, we have the most passive fanbase around. That reflects in the clubs mentality. It's just lucky the club had a massively ambitious and driven manager in Alex Ferguson, who's drive superceded the lacklustre fanbase. But without him, the club and the fanbase are just "happy to take part".
Those 3 are as bad as all of us. I wouldn’t take much stock from that - of course they all cared.
I do think there’s a big mentality issue with us. It almost felt inevitable when we got to extra time, we just curled up into a ball and hoped for the best.
I do think there’s a big mentality issue with us. It almost felt inevitable when we got to extra time, we just curled up into a ball and hoped for the best.
By passive fan base do you mean emotionally mature enough to understand that losing football matches isn’t the be all and end all?
I think if you watch the medal ceremony again, the number of players who immediately removed their medals would show you how hurt the players felt.
At the end of their careers when they look back at the (hopefully) full medal cabinet they have they'll see how this is a stepping stone and the determination that this feeling gave them. But right now you can see from their reactions it wasnt 'runners up' medals, they were 'losers' medals
At the end of their careers when they look back at the (hopefully) full medal cabinet they have they'll see how this is a stepping stone and the determination that this feeling gave them. But right now you can see from their reactions it wasnt 'runners up' medals, they were 'losers' medals
They do care and Ole do care as much as you sometimes think he do not.
The problem our manager and player do not improve under pressure and chance to win big things. They do best as underdogs.
We did see that with Ole first season. Great management and we had a great run. Then when expectations went up he did fail to win things.
We need a manager that works being one of the favorites and expected to win most games.
The problem our manager and player do not improve under pressure and chance to win big things. They do best as underdogs.
We did see that with Ole first season. Great management and we had a great run. Then when expectations went up he did fail to win things.
We need a manager that works being one of the favorites and expected to win most games.
The board haven't got any feeling one way or the other. They hurt when we don't finish top 4 anything else they don't give a feck about. It is blatently obvious that the coaching is crap yet will they do anything about it? Will they feck
You cannot really know how much it hurts just by looking at a player on the pitch when they have to wait around. Some may put a brave face on it, some may show obvious signs of emotion and maybe some aren't as affected as we'd hope. The point is you really cannot tell through shallow analysis of body language, is the point that if they're kicking bottles around, crying or arguing with one another then they are impacted by the result and other signs are taken to be a lack of caring?
It was nothing to do with lack of effort so I think the argument is rather redundant. We pressed the game, we tried to probe, we simply didn't have enough ideas. We then tired significantly which is mostly physical. If the reasons are mostly technical and tactical then you cannot really point to effort and caring as large contributing factors. If we'd have ran around like maniacs for periods, or tried to force the play would it have helped? That might have given an appearance these pundits are happy with but it's not clear it would have had a better result given our fatigue and sloppiness on the ball.
It was nothing to do with lack of effort so I think the argument is rather redundant. We pressed the game, we tried to probe, we simply didn't have enough ideas. We then tired significantly which is mostly physical. If the reasons are mostly technical and tactical then you cannot really point to effort and caring as large contributing factors. If we'd have ran around like maniacs for periods, or tried to force the play would it have helped? That might have given an appearance these pundits are happy with but it's not clear it would have had a better result given our fatigue and sloppiness on the ball.
How is anyone know? Plenty of people puts on a brave face but are hurting badly inside.
If United are to reach another cup final next season the team talk should be easy anyway with the players having a strong desire to right the wrongs of what happened on Wednesday night.
If United are to reach another cup final next season the team talk should be easy anyway with the players having a strong desire to right the wrongs of what happened on Wednesday night.
Eh? How can Scholes NOT know Phelan, Carrick, Solskjær etc...?
I said the playing staff.
Except you’ve just proved my point... ‘it’s their job to create hyperbolic opinion.’I keep seeing stuff like this, including some genius in another thread claiming Neville has a poor and overly theoretical 'understanding of the game, then going on to claim poor Poggers and Martial are suffering and that Bruno is an immature footballer. They may be prone to hyperbole and looking for things to criticise or praise (it's their job), but in reality they're retired elite footballers who've spent multiple decades of time at this club between them. Whether you agree with them or not, their opinions are far more valid and rooted in deep experience than random gimps on their phone posting nonsense for the sake of it. If you want to hear some insight on Manchester United would you ask Rio fecking Ferdinand or RUCK4444 on the caf? Mmmmm.... Jesus
And you think it’s better to view the club and squad through the eyes of ex pros that are paid to exaggerate and blow every loss or win out of proportion? Just because they were pros eh.
I mean let’s take this exact topic... do YOU honestly think the players don’t care one bit about losing?
Did you see the player reactions and interviews going on at the exact same time this trio were stirring the pot (‘because it’s their job’) ?
Your the reason BT pay these ex pros to turn the coverage into a drama. They feed off the fan reaction and fan the flames. I didn’t ask you to listen to my opinion instead but I’m pretty sure this example pretty much sums up my point when you look at the actual player reactions in contrast to what these three said.
Fair points well made. I don't think any player out there didn't care at all, no. I was just blinded by this hilarious postulation that I've noticed around here the last few days; that numerous former elite players, including two of the best and most decorated defenders to ever play for the club, are some kind of chancers or imposters that know less about the game and the club than some random on the internet. Like they just make stuff up like some mental Johnny no mates because they're allowed in to have some banter at Carrington now and again. Really?
It's a discussion forum about football, most stuff is fair game, but the notion is a joke. Former players spouting hyperbole on TV, and claiming they know sh*t about football or Man Utd are two seperate things, and both absolute codswallop.
I remember the same was levelled at Fergie's teams in the past until they won in '99. Perennial quarter/semi-finalist or losing in the 1st round/group stages. 'Poor metality'.
There is always a build-up. Only fools think that progress is linear.
Build up yeah. We lost 4 semi finals till we managed to reach a final. Now we need to lose 4 finals in a row till we manage to win one. There's always a build up.
I honestly don't know how even some of you believe such things but as long as it makes you feel better about the team in general then great for you. I am unfortunately one of those "fools" you mentioned.
Look at the final 5 minute of the match. It shows alot.
Winners would bust their lungs for that extra oomph because they're afraid of letting it go to the PK where anything could happen.
If the last 5 minutes is both teams taking their foot of the gas... then it's a weak mentality.
Only weak minded teams or underdogs plays for penalty
Winners would bust their lungs for that extra oomph because they're afraid of letting it go to the PK where anything could happen.
If the last 5 minutes is both teams taking their foot of the gas... then it's a weak mentality.
Only weak minded teams or underdogs plays for penalty
Of course it doesn’t. We have the most passive fanbase of all the top clubs. The sort of mediocrity our fanbase has tolerated in the last 8 years in the name of “The United way! We do things differently! We’re different to the fans of all the other clubs” is ridiculous.