This seems to be a recurring theme with our players over the last few seasons and I am struggling to understand is this just normal for any club, are we unlucky or is the club toxic?
Does United have a disproportionate amount of players with "attitude"?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) get the depressing job of reviewing United's 3-0 loss at Old Trafford to Liverpool. They discuss what went wrong, Casemiro's day to forget, and the pressure now on Erik Ten Hag. They also take some time to give McTominay a proper farewell, and give their overall thoughts on the Summer Transfer Window.
I'd say same answer than the thread about off field problem : No, I don't think so really.
Depends what you call "attitude" but I'm not sure who it would be apart from Ronaldo and possibly... Henderson ?
United doesn't strike me as anomalous in that regard. There's clubs where players try to lay hands on teammates at training.
When you are losing you are always looking for what's wrong and you blame everything under the sun. Before Sanchez, Pogba, Lukaku, Lingard, Henderson etc had bad attitudes they are gone now we have to find someone else with a bad attitude. Get rid of Rashford, Bruno, Martial and someone else will take over, just like we always have a new scapegoat. It never ends.
Players only have a bad attitude when the team is losing.
Imagine Cantona playing now?
"Why's he doing poetry when we've just lost again?"
Imagine Cantona playing now?
"Why's he doing poetry when we've just lost again?"
You’d need to define what you mean by attitude. Seemingly lazy, sulking ala Martial, Sancho? Potentially abusive attitudes in their private lives? Bit of an entitlement/confidence (some would say delusion) attitude of not wanting to leave United for a club of lower prestige like Maguire or DvB? I mean, there’s a variety of “attitudes” out there.
There’s something fundamentally wrong with the club. The players work rate leaves a lot to be desired, their determination and hunger as well.
then there is our coaching, especially in fitness. Our players become gassed 70 minutes in. That’s on the coaching staff.
then there is our coaching, especially in fitness. Our players become gassed 70 minutes in. That’s on the coaching staff.
The attitude era 
Tends to be a problem when you sign high ego, high wage players - United do that a lot - and have bad squad management and dreadful inability to sell so that don't allow unhappy players to leave, ruining the environment.
Has happened with Lingard, Henderson, Maguire, Van de Beek, Pogba and others.
Has happened with Lingard, Henderson, Maguire, Van de Beek, Pogba and others.
About time the manager starts showing some ruthless aggressionThe attitude era
I'm not sure, but we do have players with unwarranted huge egos and lacking in self-awareness.
There does seem to be an issue with properly scouting the players we bring in.
There does seem to be an issue with properly scouting the players we bring in.
"Attitude" off the pitch unfortunately, because on the pitch there are few players who show that.
Unlike the SAF era, we do not know who and when to buy players, that's the problem, just the wrong personnel almost every time.
Unlike the SAF era, we do not know who and when to buy players, that's the problem, just the wrong personnel almost every time.
I wonder how much you can screen for that though, except collecting hearsay or testimonies from people that may know the player from another club. I'm sure there's some optimism of "he had discipline issues at X but we're not like that" happening.
Besides had Sancho performed as expected, Sancho would have had a lot more rope to brun through.
And the ego comes with the part, everyone likes a bit of a loud player on the pitch. As much as his antics can annoy me, you can't fault Bruno for being passionate.
I'd say it's pretty standard behaviour. Most of them know they made a killing the moment they signed on the dotted line. No one will pay them more money than United, and nowhere they will get the same publicity that allows them to promote themselves and their extracurricular business activities. It's not a lack of self-awareness as most of them know, deep down, that, outside United, they will be well and truly finished at this level. So, they will ride this gravy train for as long as they can. And when the push comes to shove, their "sources" will start to leak inside information about how underappreciated they feel at Carrington.
Fernandes playing the part of 'Tepid Steve Austin'The attitude era
ETH as 'Triple L'
Maguire as 'The Pebble'
I mean it's probably true that from there it's all at best lateral moves career wise unless you're in the very, very elite group that can go up from United to the half dozen clubs that pay as well and have a better shot at trophies.
But the teams better than United do seem to be able to create the sort of emulation needed, so it must be possible. Maybe being a little less automatic in contract extensions and having more competition for the first XI would help...
Doesn't it strike you as odd that not a single one of them wants to leave and go to a club where he can actually compete for the highest prizes and win trophies? After all, by all accounts, United are a mess. Di Maria was one, but, as it proved, he never wanted to come here in the first place. It's not like these lateral career moves are so infrequent nowadays to be perceived as improbable. They are all happy to just be here and collect their wages. They know they have made it big time. And trust me, when they feel that the time is ripe, you'll start reading leaks about how problematic their relationship with the manager is. Again, i'm not blaming them. They feed on their employer's insecurities. The constant rebuilding, the long-term planning, the need to build the team around certain players etc.
Sir Alex always tried to bring in the right personalities even if some did slip through the cracks (Giggs/Ronaldo). It seems like that just completely went out the window since he left.
What's "attitude" in this context? Is it the players application on and off the field (training sessions) or something they do in their personal time?
For me, as long as it is not a hindrance or have negative impacts on the players' performance on field or to others for that matter, I think the players can do whatever they want to do.
For me, as long as it is not a hindrance or have negative impacts on the players' performance on field or to others for that matter, I think the players can do whatever they want to do.
For those who agree, disagree with the OP's preposition, perhaps we can list out players with/without attitude/personality problems in the team?
No attitude problem: Lindelof, Martinez, Hojlund, Malacia, Eriksen, Casemiro, Varane, Dalot, Onana, awb, McTominay,
Borderline: Maguire (he talks like a nice blud but he somewhat has an inflated ego and seems to take money too seriously and is unwilling to shoulder responsibilities), Rashford (occasionally unwilling to put in efforts/distracted by off-field issues), Garnacho, Antony
With attitude/personality problem (egoistic, lazy, whiny, sulking, talkative, selfish, uncooperative, delinquent, unhappy easily etc): Bailly, Fernandes, Martial, Sancho, Henderson, Shaw
Unknown: Amrabat, Mount
ironically players with the following traits:
- English players
- Players staying at the club for a long time
- Academy graduates
have higher possibility of having attitude problems. Sometime is wrong in our club that indulge our players.
No attitude problem: Lindelof, Martinez, Hojlund, Malacia, Eriksen, Casemiro, Varane, Dalot, Onana, awb, McTominay,
Borderline: Maguire (he talks like a nice blud but he somewhat has an inflated ego and seems to take money too seriously and is unwilling to shoulder responsibilities), Rashford (occasionally unwilling to put in efforts/distracted by off-field issues), Garnacho, Antony
With attitude/personality problem (egoistic, lazy, whiny, sulking, talkative, selfish, uncooperative, delinquent, unhappy easily etc): Bailly, Fernandes, Martial, Sancho, Henderson, Shaw
Unknown: Amrabat, Mount
ironically players with the following traits:
- English players
- Players staying at the club for a long time
- Academy graduates
have higher possibility of having attitude problems. Sometime is wrong in our club that indulge our players.
The attitude era
Standards have hit rock bottom.
I don't think you can say that Bruno Fernandes has an attitude problem. He hates losing! That's a good thing!
If there were more players with his mentality, the team would be significantly better.
Yes he is industrious, he hates losing, and he has no off-field sagas, but there is something wrong with his personality. He seems to be a big demotivator when things don't go in our way. That explains why we got thrashed so much since he joined us when he seems to have improved us. He is like that whiny colleague you have that makes your whole office to be in a gloomy mood when problems arise.
I agree it's noticeable that very few United players seemingly transfer to equivalent teams. It's not necessarily very common (I think Bayern is similarly not doing a lot of big outgoing transactions, but much better at selling second tier players to other BL teams) however certainly we buy more from Real or Chelsea than they buy from us. Certainly an indictment on the quality of the players we buy, our previous wage structure anarchy or United capacity to transform them into damaged goods.
This might change with our recruits being more on the younger side, Sancho will move at this rate some point in the future (at a loss perhaps), maybe Hojlund -if he performs well- will attract interest in 2-3 years. Antony and Martinez might, similarly AWB if he stays solid and keep improving.
Short term I think the only recourse is more sensible wage policies (looks underway) and healthy emulation in the squad. If Sancho, who has bags and bags of talent, can't cut it against Antony, Pellistri and Diallo... well maybe that's on him.
Yes.
It's not just a current issue either. In the past our stars were good enough to make up for it, but we have had some absolute cretins in the team.
Club has been run into the ground by horrible owners, and the only possible ones to take over are even worse. Club is incredibly unlikeable these days. Terrible on and off the pitch.
It's not just a current issue either. In the past our stars were good enough to make up for it, but we have had some absolute cretins in the team.
Club has been run into the ground by horrible owners, and the only possible ones to take over are even worse. Club is incredibly unlikeable these days. Terrible on and off the pitch.
Yes. We have had squads full of Paul Inces but not nearly as talented or fearless on the pitch. From Pogba Lingard Henderson Adnan Sanchez Ronaldo Depay Rashford the season before last, Martial sulking and having off field issues, Sancho now, Wilson, Powell, Zaha, Lukaku Morrison Greewood and probably so many more. It’s endemic to this club in particular where player power agents and money became bigger than the club because the owners are absentee and just as likely to fire the manager and reward the player with a stupid new contract. It’s daft. The tail is wagging the dog and the players have just been following the trend of weak leadership which has let a massive world famous club fall into decline
It Morphin Time
Wouldn't every club have it's fair share of idiots?
At City there was Mendy, Walker the shagger, de Bruyne the cuckold, and there are probably more.
I think it's more about how these issues are managed, at United everything gets blown out of proportion because we're not winning
At City there was Mendy, Walker the shagger, de Bruyne the cuckold, and there are probably more.
I think it's more about how these issues are managed, at United everything gets blown out of proportion because we're not winning
It is, as with so many other things, partly the Glazers. The club culture, which starts at the top and which a manager can only do so much to counteract. We may be richer and more historically prestigious than many other clubs, but there isn't that same drive to make everything, from technical profiles to training facilities, as successful (relative to resources) in sporting terms as it could be. Even back in the day when SAF was starting out and the club was floundering slightly ( sporadic cups rather than serous challengers, drink culture etc), there was still ambition there and a greater accountability. For all Martin Edwards' issues, he at least expected SAF to keep on winning once he'd started and would question him, even to a fault, if we went a season without a trophy, as well as backing the manager with behind the scenes improvements ( relative to the club's resources; sadly we've never had a properly beneficent mega rich ownership) .
Other clubs with similar wage bills and stature ( in historical terms, smaller stature in certain cases) consider it a disappointment if they don't win the league and will support the manager across the board to try and rectify that as well as placing pressure on managers if they're consecutively finishing off the top.
Point is, players can feel that slackness, the real existing lack of commitment to being the best in the national league and having a genuine shot at the CL. Even with the manager demanding standards personally in training and in team-talks, they're fighting something insidious. Then, of course, there's a lack of ruthlessness in negotiating deals- making them more incentive-based, for instance, or going for players with impeccable levels of competitivity in terms of their attitude as well as balanced physical and technical profiles, even if they're only signed as squad players. Some of that also comes down to a tolerance for 3rd or 4th best at most (often worse in terms of structures and recruitment), which allows senior technical staff to stay in roles, or existing structures to remain much longer than they ought to considering the outputs. It's providing players with elite profiles and elite wages without elite expectations or in certain regards, elite support structures.
We've also allowed managers to sign players on whim, managers with fading or second-rate instincts, which, combined with reluctance to be decisive in getting rid and allowing us to properly refresh the squad for a new project, has also contributed to a bloated, overpaid, partly complacent squad. ETH has definitely improved a few things, and in terms of the first team, once all defenders are there, Amrabat alongside Case and Mainoo filling in or helping make up a diamond in away games, RH upfront etc, is going to do well. But he's also been indulged somewhat with prerogative to pick from the available options, because SD and his team weren''t put under pressure by ownership to ensure structure was ready by the time ETH took over: indeed, there's still evidence that ETH has inordinate amount of sway, which can sometimes work but other times it won't (RH looks like a joint Ten Hag/SD and committee approved signing, and the better for it; Mount, however, is touch and go, given physical and technical profiles of other CMs available for similar price; Antony should never have been a huge marquee signing and first choice for RFW).
And until Glazers go, I can't see a title win unless City actually get sanctioned appropriately (spoiler, they won't).
Other clubs with similar wage bills and stature ( in historical terms, smaller stature in certain cases) consider it a disappointment if they don't win the league and will support the manager across the board to try and rectify that as well as placing pressure on managers if they're consecutively finishing off the top.
Point is, players can feel that slackness, the real existing lack of commitment to being the best in the national league and having a genuine shot at the CL. Even with the manager demanding standards personally in training and in team-talks, they're fighting something insidious. Then, of course, there's a lack of ruthlessness in negotiating deals- making them more incentive-based, for instance, or going for players with impeccable levels of competitivity in terms of their attitude as well as balanced physical and technical profiles, even if they're only signed as squad players. Some of that also comes down to a tolerance for 3rd or 4th best at most (often worse in terms of structures and recruitment), which allows senior technical staff to stay in roles, or existing structures to remain much longer than they ought to considering the outputs. It's providing players with elite profiles and elite wages without elite expectations or in certain regards, elite support structures.
We've also allowed managers to sign players on whim, managers with fading or second-rate instincts, which, combined with reluctance to be decisive in getting rid and allowing us to properly refresh the squad for a new project, has also contributed to a bloated, overpaid, partly complacent squad. ETH has definitely improved a few things, and in terms of the first team, once all defenders are there, Amrabat alongside Case and Mainoo filling in or helping make up a diamond in away games, RH upfront etc, is going to do well. But he's also been indulged somewhat with prerogative to pick from the available options, because SD and his team weren''t put under pressure by ownership to ensure structure was ready by the time ETH took over: indeed, there's still evidence that ETH has inordinate amount of sway, which can sometimes work but other times it won't (RH looks like a joint Ten Hag/SD and committee approved signing, and the better for it; Mount, however, is touch and go, given physical and technical profiles of other CMs available for similar price; Antony should never have been a huge marquee signing and first choice for RFW).
And until Glazers go, I can't see a title win unless City actually get sanctioned appropriately (spoiler, they won't).
No not really but we do have a lot of players that lack in basic technical ability.
I think when you look at a lot of the elite teams they seem to be full of players (whether they are physical beasts or tiny technical players) that are full of fight and have courage both on the ball and off the ball. One thing I think Fergie was great at was marrying the need for very technical footballers who also have that steel and fight in them. Scholes for example, you wouldn't highlight him as a fighter in the way Roy Keane is yet on the pitch Scholes had steel, was brave and looked to influence a game. Very rarely did players hide on a pitch under fergie and if they did they didnt last long.
When you look at the united team, especially under Ten Hag we are starting to see more and more of those characters in terms of Onana, Martinez, Case, Antony, Bruno, Garnacho (hopefully Amrabat and Rasmus). Players that have courage on and off the ball and literally would fight for the shirt. For whatever reason as talented as Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and Sancho are we've never seen them have that passion, drive and desire. Even last season there were periods where if Rashford didnt score then he didn't do much. In fact I think Rashford is one of the biggest symptoms of this. He talks a good game yet is the first player to shirk a physical challenge or not even battle for a header (literally did it about 3/4 times v arsenal alone). The guy is 6 foot, a beast physically yet does nothing to impose himself on a game. The game has to go to him rather than he take control of the game.
And that is a choice that for whatever reason Rashford, Martial, Greenwood when he was in the team, Sancho all seem to have in common. I would have put Shaw and AWB in there but I have seen a change in them under Ten Hag. But the aforementioned 4 to me don't have the attitude that is needed at an elite club to battle through intense elite games.
When you look at the united team, especially under Ten Hag we are starting to see more and more of those characters in terms of Onana, Martinez, Case, Antony, Bruno, Garnacho (hopefully Amrabat and Rasmus). Players that have courage on and off the ball and literally would fight for the shirt. For whatever reason as talented as Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and Sancho are we've never seen them have that passion, drive and desire. Even last season there were periods where if Rashford didnt score then he didn't do much. In fact I think Rashford is one of the biggest symptoms of this. He talks a good game yet is the first player to shirk a physical challenge or not even battle for a header (literally did it about 3/4 times v arsenal alone). The guy is 6 foot, a beast physically yet does nothing to impose himself on a game. The game has to go to him rather than he take control of the game.
And that is a choice that for whatever reason Rashford, Martial, Greenwood when he was in the team, Sancho all seem to have in common. I would have put Shaw and AWB in there but I have seen a change in them under Ten Hag. But the aforementioned 4 to me don't have the attitude that is needed at an elite club to battle through intense elite games.
Toure got the hump when his club didn't get him a birthday cake. There will always be entitled players at the top level.
One solution to this is to stop signing players on outrageous contracts, which I'd say we're making steady progress towards after Woodward's era of financial flagrancy. The Martinez deal for example was a good move from us as he joined on relatively little but earned a new contract based on his performances. It's just a few players who were here before Hag joined that are the ones causing problems: Sancho, Martial and to a lesser extent Harold.
We probably pay too much for Mount but he doesn't seem like he's got a bad attitude, thankfully.
We probably pay too much for Mount but he doesn't seem like he's got a bad attitude, thankfully.
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Not sure about altitude, but this Sancho business is a new low.
Get off your high horse!
I partially agree with your last bit. The players really have to be taking their share of responsibility, too. Let's not pretend that they're children who don't know any better. They're elite professionals in this field, playing for Manchester United (one of the top teams) in the Premier League (one of the top leagues in the world). There has to be some sort of onus on the players to maintain professional standards when it comes to being a footballer, and that involves everything you have just said about hunger, desire, determination, and (importantly) keeping in the right physical condition. Yes, the coaches should be working the players harder, but the players should also be working themselves harder.
If somebody paid you £300k a week to play football, the least you can do is work on your fitness. You shouldn't need somebody else overseeing you to do that!
Makes me think of the Richard Arnold PR puff piece last year where he bragged about his ‘no dickheads’ policy. When we tried to sign Arnautovic I didn’t have high hopes for his policy and it doesn’t appear to be going very well.
Pogba, Lingard, Bailly
Surely he’s referring to Greenwood, Antony, Ronaldo and Sancho?
What he meant to say was "no, dickheads" and it was a response to the question - "Will Man Utd start relying on players who are boyscouts to try to win now?"
Well yes. My point is that it only gets highlighted when the team is doing poorly.