Yeah I was purely speculating that Cholo would give that platform playing in a destroyer role, but then he has to mind Robbo as well, considering Xavi's advanced role. It's better Edgar to clarify it himself tho as he completely skipped the midfield part in his write up.
Dominoes draft: R1 - EAP vs Mazhar13/2mufc0
- Thread starter Tuppet
- Start date
Ze Roebrto and Simeone are two way midfielders are can move up to support as necessary. They are not typical destroyers.
That midfield can easily become...
Simeone.....Xavi
....Ze Roberto....
or
Ze Roberto.....Xavi
.....Simeone........
depending on game situation. And Xavi is positioned ahead of either them to illustrate that they are not on same axis. With Ze Roberto needed to support attacking Lizarazu/Passarella. Simeone is positioned on the right instead so he can provide a modicum of support against Baggio.
That Hungary team was a early prototype of total football. There is a direct quote by Puskas where he notes that the they attack or defends as a team. When they attack everybody attacks, When they defend everybody defends.
I can see a couple of unfortunate Svilars.
Can't vote for EAP with that sheep in goal.
Yea I considered that while looking at the formation and it didn't seem to me that it would happen often with the added defensive responsibilities for both Ze Roberto and Simeone.
Again, I am sure they will end up in those positions, but at a risk or defensive compromise which would lead to that route less often than not.
Neither of them being a pure destroyer actually is not ideal. I too think a Makelele or Steilike would have been so much more better.
I guess this is highly debatable and comes down to personal opinion on how the formation would work better.
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Not much defensive responsibility on Simeone tbh. It's just Ze who has Lizarazu and Passarella on his side. Carlos Alberto has played CB and despite his famous goal, is not a wingback. With Tony Adams at his side, I doubt they need Simeone's defensive contribution much. He's free to roam about when we have the ball and support with handling Baggio when we don't. Lazio played frequently with a Simeone-Veron in midfield and for NT it's been Redondo-Simeone. It'd be no different here. He's quite a versatile player. With Ze in deep, he has the comfort to move ahead and partner up with Xavi.
I did mention when drafting is on the problem with Xavi. Anything other than below is taken with pinch of salt. And even if fielded in exactly same formation, it goes back to Iniesta dynamic comparison.
...CM.......Xavi....
.........DM...........
Xavi is a midfield playmaker par excellance. He can fit in the same way Schuster or Modric can fit into non tiki-taka teams. His prime position is just ahead of the midway line in a free role and that's what he has here. With physical players like Gullit and Cristiano ahead and two very good ball players in Simeone/Ze Roberto behind, he has ample opportunities to pass and recycle the ball and will be in his prime here.
Went with EAP for now as neither team is weakness free and in a goal fest, I would fancy team EAP, especially with his defense which wouldn't need to have a blinder to work.
The GK is a big if which of course ideally should directly lead to a vote against him considering he was not even the starting GK for his country whose league was shit too back then.
But I would give him a benefit of doubt for 1 round as we know nothing about him. If he wins, would vote directly against him in the next round if he had the same GK.
While mufc/mazhar have a well assembled much more cohesive side from defense to midfield to attack as compared to EAP, I feel EAP's defense has it to handle that even with a not so ideal balanced midfield. Also, Boateng+Camoranesi is a bit weak with any version of Ronaldo. That is not a good idea against the best player of your opposition.
The GK is a big if which of course ideally should directly lead to a vote against him considering he was not even the starting GK for his country whose league was shit too back then.
But I would give him a benefit of doubt for 1 round as we know nothing about him. If he wins, would vote directly against him in the next round if he had the same GK.
While mufc/mazhar have a well assembled much more cohesive side from defense to midfield to attack as compared to EAP, I feel EAP's defense has it to handle that even with a not so ideal balanced midfield. Also, Boateng+Camoranesi is a bit weak with any version of Ronaldo. That is not a good idea against the best player of your opposition.
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And with Lizarazu, Passarella, Ze, Cristiano and Puskas...my left flank is very potent (arguable a tad too attacking in all fairness)...and he has Camoranesi and Boateng to stop them. My attacking flank is his weakest flank which enhances the mismatch.
Ah I posted a few seconds late. I agree that you don't need a heck lot of defensive contribution there with that defense and hence you could have afforded 1 less holder and one more free minded player alongside Xavi if you had a pure destroyer. Think that would be an issue if you win and face a different team.
Also, I don't think every midfield in that setup would lead to a Iniesta-esque debate. I think that is a easy way out you have taken
For example Xavi+Modric/Kroos or even Schuster in a few setups would work like a charm.
If Cesc never played for Barcelona or Spain, I am sure most would like to think he would work like a charm with Xavi.
I see that not many are talking about Brane Oblak here. The reason he's set up the way he is is down to his hardworking nature. The man was a player with two lungs who kept running non-stop for 90 minutes. In this particular match, with Robson and Redondo in the midfield too, I see someone like Xavi getting suffocated. This will be crucial for us in shutting down EAP given that his side looks like one that lacks cohesion as @Raees mentioned.
Here is his performance against Brazil in 1970. Notice how much of a tough time he gave both Rivellino and Jairzinho whilst still being a threat going forward:
Highlights:
- 00:35 - Good run to the right flank, dragging Mario Marinho towards him. Puts in a decent cross with his left foot towards Acimovic who fluffs his shot.
- 00:58 - Closes down Jairzinho then Rivellino instantly
- 03:00 - Faces pressure from Jairzinho but retains possession comfortably
- 03:08 - Rises up to beat Luis Pereira and Nelinho in the air on the inside left and gives Dzajic a great opening to take a shot from outside the box
- 03:40 - Challenges the ball and forces Rivellino to aggressively shield the ball against him, who concedes a foul
- 04:08 - Wins the ball off of Rivellino and starts a counterattack
- 04:33 - Puts Dzajic through on the left flank only for Dzajic to fluff his cross
- 04:48 - Again, shuts down Rivellino successfully
- 08:27 - Stops the Brazilian counterattack with an excellent recovery, then proceeds to dance past Leivinha as if he wasn't there
- 09:06 - Wins the ball off of Jairzinho immediately
- 12:30 - Receives the ball on the right wing, beats Marinho Chagas, and creates a great chance for Yugoslavia to score
- 13:09 - Dzajic puts in a great cross, and Oblak's header hits the post
As you can see from the video, he was all over the place. He was on the right and on the left, and he was also the deepest midfielder. He was one of the reasons that Jairzinho and Rivellino (and Brazil as a whole) were blunt going forward for much of the match. On the other hand, he was involved in all of Yugoslavia's best chances to score. His willingness to press, tirelessness, and consistency allowed Yugoslavia to remain a threat even though they fielded a left winger up front.
In terms of the midfield battle, he's the reason why I feel confident about us winning. He's the man who will help us get control of the match and bring the best out of our star players.
Here is his performance against Brazil in 1970. Notice how much of a tough time he gave both Rivellino and Jairzinho whilst still being a threat going forward:
Highlights:
- 00:35 - Good run to the right flank, dragging Mario Marinho towards him. Puts in a decent cross with his left foot towards Acimovic who fluffs his shot.
- 00:58 - Closes down Jairzinho then Rivellino instantly
- 03:00 - Faces pressure from Jairzinho but retains possession comfortably
- 03:08 - Rises up to beat Luis Pereira and Nelinho in the air on the inside left and gives Dzajic a great opening to take a shot from outside the box
- 03:40 - Challenges the ball and forces Rivellino to aggressively shield the ball against him, who concedes a foul
- 04:08 - Wins the ball off of Rivellino and starts a counterattack
- 04:33 - Puts Dzajic through on the left flank only for Dzajic to fluff his cross
- 04:48 - Again, shuts down Rivellino successfully
- 08:27 - Stops the Brazilian counterattack with an excellent recovery, then proceeds to dance past Leivinha as if he wasn't there
- 09:06 - Wins the ball off of Jairzinho immediately
- 12:30 - Receives the ball on the right wing, beats Marinho Chagas, and creates a great chance for Yugoslavia to score
- 13:09 - Dzajic puts in a great cross, and Oblak's header hits the post
As you can see from the video, he was all over the place. He was on the right and on the left, and he was also the deepest midfielder. He was one of the reasons that Jairzinho and Rivellino (and Brazil as a whole) were blunt going forward for much of the match. On the other hand, he was involved in all of Yugoslavia's best chances to score. His willingness to press, tirelessness, and consistency allowed Yugoslavia to remain a threat even though they fielded a left winger up front.
In terms of the midfield battle, he's the reason why I feel confident about us winning. He's the man who will help us get control of the match and bring the best out of our star players.
Ultimately I think the midfield decides this. Redondo-Robson-Oblak with Breitner supporting is going to control this match. It feels like Pillow's midfield will be playing a constant game of whack-a-mole having to bring other players in to cover. In such a scenario that "goalie" is going to get demolished. I think Pillow needed a different midfield to win this type of match with his sheep keeper strategy.
Why ignore the sheep Gk for only one round though? He had 15 opportunities to pick a decent keeper so not sure he deserves a break over it. This issue is a big weakness for him, imagine if I had Titus Bramble at cb and the reaction it would get?
And I don't see Boa as a weakness he has a stellar record he's no worse than Adams.
Sigh, tough call. I will revisit my vote before the deadline ends.
@Edgar Allan Pillow , any info about the GK would be appreciated mate. Perhaps if he ever played against a decent squad
You can have games where GK is rarely involved...can't say the same for a CB. That defensive line is very good to deal with what you can offer, so despite being a weak keeper he's not an outright liability.
@idmanager
He was considered part of Olympiacos Golden Team to say, one of their most successful teams.
They won 3 Greek Cups in 4 years.
And he has a stadium named after him...which is to say something!
http://www.epsip.gr/field/display_field.php?field_id=5
He was considered part of Olympiacos Golden Team to say, one of their most successful teams.
They won 3 Greek Cups in 4 years.
And he has a stadium named after him...which is to say something!
http://www.epsip.gr/field/display_field.php?field_id=5
Thing is mate you aren't paying any old lot that you can completely shut down. Baggio, Sanchez, Redondo, Robbo, Oblak and Breitner will create and score.
Oh, the irony
Although I maintain the GK liability, I would reiterate that our midfield and setup would win this game for us in the end. Would encourage voters to read @mazhar13 post above regarding Oblak.
It's a 3 on 3 midfield. Lizarau will offer as much support as Breitner when respective teams have the ball. Puskas and baggio are probably at Par here and I think Cristiano will offer more than Sanchez in final third, esp in stretching play.
Gullit's midfield contribution is getting ignored here!
What about the impact of Passarella from the deep which none of his CBs can even be compared to?
I can understand comments on keeper, but getting outmuscled in midfield is something that is not going to happen.
Seriously EAP? This coming from you regarding Breitner...
Not in usual sense. For this match specifically, facing Camoranesi/no wingers, I reckon so. Not in the middle, but in flanks I mean.
Really good article here on Picchi :
http://inbedwithmaradona.com/milan-1/2016/10/26/the-first-of-the-liberos
http://inbedwithmaradona.com/milan-1/2016/10/26/the-first-of-the-liberos
I think it is. Redondo-Robson-Oblak are just higher tier in midfield than Ze or Simeone. Xavi is, IMO, not in the best most complementary midfield and Breitner is going to do far more damage than Lizarazu. If you are counting on Gullit to support your midfield then I think that weakens the ability of Puskas and Cristiano to influence the match. I just don't see it working here and you will get overrun.
Legend who gets very underrated when we talk amongst the greatest italian defenders. Shame about his very underwhelming international career. Was the inspiration behind my back three and my use of Rio (albeit slightly different style of defender).
Any good vids/footage of him to showcase his defending?
For now, this is the best that I could find, though if I get some free time, I can set up a few vids.
He's a GOAT but not really the defender you need. With a 5-3-2, you need a libero who can push up and get the ball out of the defence. Esle Redondo will have to drop back to orchestrate plays and that's weaken your midfield.
@oneniltothearsenal
That's where Boateng comes into play. He's quite comfortable on the ball and is able to advance forward with it if needed.
Having said that, Brane Oblak's able to drop back and kick start attacks himself as you can see in the compilation that I recently posted.
[QUOTE="Edgar Allan Pillow, post: 21716803, member: 57041"]You can have games where GK is rarely involved...can't say the same for a CB. That defensive line is very good to deal with what you can offer, so despite being a weak keeper he's not an outright liability.[/QUOTE]
You can, just not this game.
You can, just not this game.
Hold up, this isn't over yet, mine and mazhars votes don't count.
I'm still waiting for @idmanager to come back on and reconsider his vote.
I'm still waiting for @idmanager to come back on and reconsider his vote.
You're still in this. My vote is not fixed yet.
To be fair, I do feel guilty for this crap. Was funny while drafting but looks stupid now with so much discussion being deviated away to places it doesn't need to.
But I did a bit of google search and this guy maintained a clean sheet against a more than decent Yugoslavian Team (reached QF's in the 1958 WC and I can recognize quite a few names) in 1958 WC qualifiers.
So he wasn't a complete dud from what I can see and should be decent cover if not great as long as the defense ahead is great.
Might still have an error in him but I don't want to vote on the premise that he came from a shit league and hence was a shit player
Why hold it against him if he qualifies for the next round? Dunno. Once lucky, twice shy I guess for an all time context.
Below is the link for the game BTW.
https://eu-football.info/_match.php?id=14787
Sorry @2mufc0 and @mazhar13 . I do concede you win the midfield battle hands down as I have from the start, but I will hand over a narrow victory to EAP as he does have the more ruthless attack and a no non-sense defense, while yours does have 1 gaping hole.
Oh, the irony
@Edgar Allan Pillow was a top 4 favourite before the start of the draft.
And he had 2 left-back and 2 right-back in his squad!
Feckin GK. That's twice I lost because of a GK.
And a lesson to never pick Xavi again.
And a lesson to never pick Xavi again.
and one acrobat.
Leave it to those who use him properly.