Do you think that's because Man United get more coverage for everything or because there's a bias against Man United (or towards Chelsea)?
Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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Oh I know we get more coverage, I don't believe in media bias against us, not these days anyway
Exactly it works both ways, they may get critics we may avoid but also praise we wouldn't get.
For example, look at the coverage LVG got in the 2014 world cup (when he was heading to United afterwards), the media were treating him like God and we're acting like it was United that got to the semi final.
Also a lot of the VdB stuff was from earlier in the season when Utd were really struggling, I haven't heard so much of it since but admittedly I don't follow Utd all that closely.
Both players should be given time, as an outsider though they didn't seem like the most necessary of signings given the quality/depth each side had in those areas already.
Both players should be given time, as an outsider though they didn't seem like the most necessary of signings given the quality/depth each side had in those areas already.
Had to google that term. I get where you're coming from but it's not really that complicated with him. Havertz' problem is rather that he can put in decent performances in a wide variety of positions. For us he was best as an 8 in a 4-3-3 or an 8/10 hybrid in a 3-6-1. Especially in the later system the comparison Mezzala makes sense since Havertz regularly gravitated to the wing to receive the ball (same goes for Brandt). However, he also had great games as an inverted winger as well as a false or even true nine. Under Herrlich he even played decently as a CDM in a two man midfield. So in general, he's a very adaptable player - you can also see that if you take a look at a summary of his appearances so far: 97 games a CAM, 45 as a RW, 23 as a CM, 10 as a striker, 6 as a LM according to transfermarkt.de. From my experience they often got our formation a bit wrong and many of the CAM/RW appearances were actually CM. Anyway, this shows he was used where he was needed and often used to accomodate other players. Naturally this kind of switching is harder if you're in a new team.
Also I have a feeling people expected the wrong things when Chelsea signed him. They saw all the goals and scorers and assumed that's what he's all about when in reality Havertz was best as a CM in a possession oriented system for us. There were extended periods of time without any scorers when he was also our most important player since he distributed the ball so well and showed great link up play between the lines. I think that's very different from Pogba who is generally a much more vertical and direct player than Havertz.
As much as I'd love to drive into a new Chelsea signing, he's a very young player in a new country and league and who's contracted Covid since he's arrived too.
He'll need to be given time, perhaps a season or more, before he can be fully judged imo.
He'll need to be given time, perhaps a season or more, before he can be fully judged imo.
He's 21. Hazard at 21 was a world beater even after arriving from the French league. He might improve but he won't single handedly win them titles the way hazard did.
Hazard is in a different league talent-wise, IMO. I think the only young player currently around who's as talented as Hazard is Sancho, maybe Felix, and Havertz is a tier below that.
Hard to find anything special about him, yet. However, overall we are doing great so that kind of makes it irrelevant for me how individual players perform.
Looked absolutely woeful yesterday. Hoping he's Chelsea's Nicolas Pepe.
Hazard is a pretty high bar, he's one of the best players the league has ever seen.
He isnt even better than Todd Cantwell. The problem for him is that this isn't Germany and he just cant drift into the box unnoticed 7 times per game. Some of us saw it form the start that he was vastly overrated. A player similar to dele alli that lacks any natural position. ofcourse I think he will do much better than Dele but he will turn out to be a big waste of money.
Maybe somebody should've told the opponents of German teams in this season's UCL and UEL that you could just drift into the box unnoticed 7 times per game against Bundesliga squads. Maybe Germany wouldn't have four teams in the UCL knock out rounds compared to England's three right now.
Yeah, I know that now. But before he came, thats how high he was being rated. Or at least thats the impression I got. Havertz isn't even prime Ozil level imo, who at 21 was playing a starring role for Germany in the world cup.
I'm as big of an Özil fan as it gets but Havertz is farther advanced in his development than Özil at the same age. And especially in terms of goal threat he already made steps in his development Özil unfortunately never made. He's not as good of a final third passer as Özil is (then again, who is?) but he's shown a wider range of abilities which is very important since the role of a pure 10 doesn't really exist anymore.
And yes, Özil was one of the best Germany players aged 21 already but Özil followed a generation full of mediocrity. He had an easy path into the team whereas Havertz competes with (world) class players in his position(s) like Kroos, Kimmich, Gündogan, Goretzka, Brandt, Wermer, Sane and Gnabry. At around 2010, a player like Havertz would have walked into the German team.
+ he had the coronavirus with strong symptoms.
Well played sir!"...I don't care, give it a week, a month or a year or whatever. I know the kind of player Kai Havertz is going to be."
Lampard on Havertz yesterday.
Lampard on Havertz yesterday.
Havertz is a modern day Scott Canham to Lampard's 'Arry.
Nah, Havertz is Frank, Frank is 'Arry and you lot are all the fat gobshite West Ham fan who know naff all about football.
He’s very kind to animals, apparently.
I know I know. As soon as I posted it I realised my tiny brain had malfunctioned. Bonus points for remembering the name Scott Canham from memory, though, surely?
Yes!
I recently found out that the West Ham fan in that old video was actually Scott Canham's uncle. Kinda feel bad for Scott Canham when that came out.
Did everyone in East London have a nephew playing for West Ham at the time?
Seeing as the only English team that didn’t top its UCL group scored 7 goals in two games against the German team that took their place in the next round, a degree of scepticism about Bundesliga defending isn’t the craziest thing ever.
To me, he's one of those players that have a hard time fitting in a team. Not really a midfielder, not really a forward, he's hard to use for a coach. The problem being, Chelsea also bought Werner who has the same kind of issues.
This kind of players can either meet a coach that will shape their role on the pitch (a bit like Griezmann who wasn't as versatile before he joined Atletico) or you can fail to reach the highest level like Dybala (despite an enormous talent).
It's like "well you're good, that's for sure but I don't now what to do with you".
This kind of players can either meet a coach that will shape their role on the pitch (a bit like Griezmann who wasn't as versatile before he joined Atletico) or you can fail to reach the highest level like Dybala (despite an enormous talent).
It's like "well you're good, that's for sure but I don't now what to do with you".
Not many reach those heights but he can still be world class.
I'm not saying it's unreasonable to suggest it's easier to score in the Bundesliga. There are more goals per game in Germany as far as I know so there's some truth to it. However, if you've seen Havertz' goals, the quality of his finishing and movement, claims like that sound a bit silly. Even more so when German teams are simultaneously doing well in European competitions.
Can’t for the life of me understand how anyone is passing judgment on 21 year old kid playing in a foreign league for the first time after 10 games.
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Because he was being built up as this world class talent that couldn't be missed -and was a SNIP at 70m.
Others quite rightly said he isn't as good as they make out to be - and so far we've been proved correct.
Yes he has the time and potential to turn that around and be a star, but so far he's not been what people were expecting that's for sure.
Yes, he loves donkeys which explains why Giroud chose to stick around.
He is also a leader. His parents used to give him the key to the house when he was a kid. Pet house.
No, he won't. That's why i was reliefed that Bayern did not spend €100m into him.
Since Marin, Draxler, Götze, Schürrle and others i am sceptical with hyped german talent. He will improve for sure, but he won't be a world beater imo.
Very interesting point that you make. I just wanted to ask you, its the system which German Clubs use which make players perform better than they can individually, because I get the same feeling that Sancho will be very similar when he leaves Bundesliga.
Sancho is class. He would do good for United. He just needs to work on his consistence.
But if you expect him to carry a team completely on his own, you might be dissapointed.
Havertz might well turn out to be great. I won’t argue with you there. Fans who get all excited about a new signing at a rival club having a slow start often end up looking silly. Which is much more likely in this instance when you consider he recently had a nasty dose of covid.
German teams in general are very focused on collective compared to their English counterparts. This reflects the image many Germans have about how to play football ("11 Freunde müsst ihr sein") but also is a tribute to the financial disadvantages German clubs have (always had) compared to their international competitors from England, Spain and Italy. I feel like there's much more emphasis on playing style, system etc. than it is in English football where the focus is more on individual quality.
I think that's part of the reason why some players who did exceptionally well in Germany couldn't replicate that abroad. Naturally a functioning collective enables you to perform much better than you would in a less well drilled team and if a player is used to playing in such a unit, it's harder for him to adapt to a more "improvised" tactical environment. That for example happened to Kagawa and Mkhitaryan, I believe. But I'd say the same would happen to players like Mane, Salah or Sterling, currently.
Now the question is, which player is better - the specialist who flourishes in the right environment and hits a very high ceiling there or the generalist who does well in every environment but might never reach those heights? Since IMO a top club should always try to implement a system, I'd personally go for the former and try to build a team of players flourishing in similar environments. That's essentially what Klopp and Pep are doing.
For 108 Million, you expect something exceptional, dont you? I mean, otherwise it would be another Pogba (love and hate) debate. Bruno is literally carrying the whole team at the moment and I dont know how long will that continue
Personally I think, he is a very good player but only if we pay right amount for him, otherwise he will always be compared as the most expensive signing who is occasionally good.