Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch

Mike Smalling

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What on earth has that got to do with anything? You’ll see plenty of threads slagging off the quality and signings of those 2, this is the Havertz thread, where we’re discussing how poor he is. If you’re that thin skinned you can’t bear to read the criticism go into another thread, or forum.
Some of the Arsenal fans on here are unbearable. One good season and they’re giving it the big ‘un.
 

eire-red

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Just out of interest what's your views on how much United spent on Sancho and Antony?
Pretty bonkers, much like all transfer fees paid these days.

Antony I think has potential to repay it to some extent.
 

BayernFan87

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To be fair it was mainly the German Defence League who were hyping him.
Um I think you remember that wrong.
Most Bayern fans were very happy that we didn't spend that amount of money for him. And in general most Bundesliga fans said that he is a level below some of the big talents in recent years like de Bruyne, Götze or Dembele.
 

Mogget

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Pretty bonkers, much like all transfer fees paid these days.

Antony I think has potential to repay it to some extent.
That's fair. I suppose the logic is that if clubs overspend on younger players it's easier to get value back than if they were in their prime, which would explain the insane transfer fees we've been seeing
 

rajds89

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Just out of interest what's your views on how much United spent on Sancho and Antony?
As of right now, a waste of money.

What’s your views on how much Arsenal spent on Pepe? Not that it of course matters when purely speaking about how shit Havertz is but seeing as you asked the question.
 

eire-red

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That's fair. I suppose the logic is that if clubs overspend on younger players it's easier to get value back than if they were in their prime, which would explain the insane transfer fees we've been seeing
I can understand mega fees for top strikers, or overpaying for someone like Bellingham.

I'll put it this way - Hypothetically if Arsenal paid £170m and bought Osimhen only instead of Rice and Havertz, I'd put them up there with a better chance of winning the league.

For the record, I think Rice is a quality player even though I'm not a fan of him or the fanboyism around him. I look at it the same way as Enzo - quality players, but over the course of a season I don't see either of them being a difference maker for Arsenal or Chelsea.

If Arsenal don't win the League after landing the No. 1 target and marquee signing after running City close last season, what was the point? They'll still be looking for the missing piece next summer. Same goes for all clubs.
 

GaryLifo

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Arsenal looked a little bit less good than last season and we looked a bit better than the game there last season.

Havertz has not improved arsenal at all.
 

kaku06

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He has been really bad so far every game for arsenal. If he doesn't improve then ESR and other players should deserve a chance in a starting spot.
He is the reason we looked competitive. If partey was fit and you had played him and Rice in midfield, it would be one sided. You would have pinned us back.
 

SilentWitness

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He has been atrocious for a year or so now. Really don't understand the signing and for that money there were so many players on the market that would have been a better option.
 

kaku06

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Basically Arteta wants to cheat on his wife with Havertz.
Or Havertz is not able conquer his partner till now and Arteta signed him to show that he can conquer her by playing him in midfield. Fair to say his personal life is even shittier than ever before and certainly not beautiful. I blame Arteta for Havertz’s crisis in personal life.
 

Mogget

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As of right now, a waste of money.

What’s your views on how much Arsenal spent on Pepe? Not that it of course matters when purely speaking about how shit Havertz is but seeing as you asked the question.
Total waste of money and probably some fraudulent activity going on behind the scenes with that deal.

The reason I brought it up was because I regularly see United fans talking about what a waste of money rival signings are despite probably having wasted more money on signings than any other club in the last decade. Maybe I'm missing it but I don't see fans of any other clubs this obsessed with transfer fees.
I can understand mega fees for top strikers, or overpaying for someone like Bellingham.

I'll put it this way - Hypothetically if Arsenal paid £170m and bought Osimhen only instead of Rice and Havertz, I'd put them up there with a better chance of winning the league.

For the record, I think Rice is a quality player even though I'm not a fan of him or the fanboyism around him. I look at it the same way as Enzo - quality players, but over the course of a season I don't see either of them being a difference maker for Arsenal or Chelsea.

If Arsenal don't win the League after landing the No. 1 target and marquee signing after running City close last season, what was the point? They'll still be looking for the missing piece next summer. Same goes for all clubs.
I think this used to be the case but football has been moving away from that for a while now, probably started by City spending £50m a pop for defenders years ago. If you want to try and compete with them you really do need a whole squad full of expensive transfers, not just a few marquee ones.

I personally don't think signing Osimhen over Rice and Havertz would have made us closer to winning. We'd score more goals but then we'd just have a gap in our squad in midfield. Ideally we'd need Rice, Havertz, and Osimhen to really challenge them
 

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If Arsenal don't win the League after landing the No. 1 target and marquee signing after running City close last season, what was the point? They'll still be looking for the missing piece next summer. Same goes for all clubs.
I don't really understand this mentality - should we just all give up and roll over for City? Of course if we don't look to have closed the gap on City after spending what we have, it would be disappointing. But 3-4 years ago Arsenal weren't even in the conversation, and we've not been in the CL for 7 years. It's about being truly competitive - City has set a very high bar (until something actually happens with their 115 charges). And for the first time in almost a decade, Arsenal are now back at the top level. The reality is all clubs have to spend big these days to have any chance of competing with the oil clubs.

As for Havertz, he looks very low in confidence to me. He probably should have had 2-3 goals for us by now but has lost his composure. He's getting in some good positions which is positive, but often he slows down our play and looks lost. That miss-kick in this game was woeful, so weak. Arteta has some way to go to repair the damage from Chelsea IMO. But Arteta seems to have turned Fabio Vieira around - not long ago many Arsenal fans were saying he should go on loan and he's a waste of £34mil but he's looked stronger and more direct so far this season. Hopefully Arteta can achieve something similar with Havertz.
 
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eire-red

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I don't really understand this mentality - should we just all give up and roll over for City? Of course if we don't look to have closed the gap on City after spending what we have, it would be disappointing. But 3-4 years ago Arsenal weren't even in the conversation, and we've not been in the CL for 7 years. It's about being truly competitive - City has set a very high bar (until something actually happens with their 115 charges). And for the first time in almost a decade, Arsenal are now back at the top level. The reality is all clubs have to spend big these days to have any chance of competing with the oil clubs.

As for Havertz, he looks very low in confidence to me. He probably should have had 2-3 goals for us by now but has lost his composure. He's getting in some good positions which is positive, but often he slows down our play and looks lost. That miss-kick in this game was woeful, so weak. Arteta has some way to go to repair the damage from Chelsea IMO. But Arteta seems to have turned Fabio Vieira around - not long ago many Arsenal fans were saying he should go on loan and he's a waste of £34mil but he's looked stronger and more direct so far this season. Hopefully Arteta can achieve something similar with Havertz.
I think you've missed my point. I didn't say Arsenal shouldn't spend anything this summer. I just struggle to see why they've signed the players they have to bridge the gap to City.
 

Chief123

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The reason I brought it up was because I regularly see United fans talking about what a waste of money rival signings are despite probably having wasted more money on signings than any other club in the last decade. Maybe I'm missing it but I don't see fans of any other clubs this obsessed with transfer fees.
Blimey you’re a touchy bunch. Shock horror, utd fans talking about Kai Havertz being a waste of money in the Kai Havertz thread.

The key emphasis here is Kai Havertz was dog shit when Arsenal signed him and had established himself as such for 3 solid years. They paid a premium price for dog shit. It’s clear Arteta was trying to prove he was smart and able to transform a shit player into something revolutionary. He’s looking a bit of a mug with this signing now and trying desperately to make it work. The longer he persists the better.
 

GoonerGirly

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I think you've missed my point. I didn't say Arsenal shouldn't spend anything this summer. I just struggle to see why they've signed the players they have to bridge the gap to City.
Ok, so can I ask who you think we should have signed instead of Rice, Havertz and Timber? IMO the only dodgy one there is Havertz. Rice looks the business even at the inflated price. Timber unfortunately got injured and will likely miss most of the season, not much Arteta could have done about that.
 

Zehner

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Haven't seen the game. On paper, it looks like Arsenal had played themselves into more goal scoring opportunities (17 to 10 shots, 2.27 to 0.94 xG), dominated possession slightly (55%) and Havertz personal statistics read as if he had an average but not terrible game (88% passing accuracy, 2 shots, 1 key pass, 5 interceptions).

Was he so bad outside of those statistics or just the often cited "nothing player"?
 

WeePat

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Haven't seen the game. On paper, it looks like Arsenal had played themselves into more goal scoring opportunities (17 to 10 shots, 2.27 to 0.94 xG), dominated possession slightly (55%) and Havertz personal statistics read as if he had an average but not terrible game (88% passing accuracy, 2 shots, 1 key pass, 5 interceptions).

Was he so bad outside of those statistics or just the often cited "nothing player"?
He was invisible. He had a big miss where he comically tried to volley but missed the ball completely right in front of the goal. Apart from that, didn't see him until he was subbed off.
 

GoonerGirly

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Haven't seen the game. On paper, it looks like Arsenal had played themselves into more goal scoring opportunities (17 to 10 shots, 2.27 to 0.94 xG), dominated possession slightly (55%) and Havertz personal statistics read as if he had an average but not terrible game (88% passing accuracy, 2 shots, 1 key pass, 5 interceptions).

Was he so bad outside of those statistics or just the often cited "nothing player"?
Havertz was poor. Was decent enough first two games, less so vs Fulham but we shot ourselves in the foot with an error in the first min, so cut him some slack there. But we probably played our best attacking football this game so far this season and Havertz looked out of place. He's getting in some good positions (penalty shout, miscued kick) but just looked dire for the most part.
 

Changeisgood

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He also doesn't have the confidence of his teammates. A goal would help but he is fluffing the few chances he gets. I noticed Nelli completely ignoring him for example. ESR and Vieira deserve a shot pretty soon in my opinion. I should not be saying that for a guy we just payed 65 mil for. He looks nonchalant out there....sloppy.
 

eire-red

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Ok, so can I ask who you think we should have signed instead of Rice, Havertz and Timber? IMO the only dodgy one there is Havertz. Rice looks the business even at the inflated price. Timber unfortunately got injured and will likely miss most of the season, not much Arteta could have done about that.
Hard to say really. I'm surprised you weren't in for a striker, but who was available? Then again, I feel like United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Co are always bemoaning the lack of top level strikers, yet City probably have 2 that would walk into any team in Europe.

A 30+ a season striker has been a trait of every top team for the last decade. If United signed Caicedo instead of Hojlund, we're no closer in my eyes to the league. If Hojlund scores 20+ goals this season and leads the line, it's transformative for us.

Pretty big if though, and clearly Arteta didn't think any of the young talent on offer across Europe was worth the risk for the outlay involved.

Arsenal have spent over £200m on incomings in this window, but do you think you're genuinely closer to challenging City than last year? Has the first 11 been significantly upgraded when everyone is fit?

That's not a criticism on Arsenal, just a reflection on how crazy football has become and how high City have set the bar in terms of quality required to compete.
 

WeePat

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That is a terrible analogy and someone in PR should give him some training.
I bet practised it in front of the mirror the night before and felt good about it. He probably gave his reflection a wink and a shotgun too.
 

GoonerGirly

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Hard to say really. I'm surprised you weren't in for a striker, but who was available? Then again, I feel like United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Co are always bemoaning the lack of top level strikers, yet City probably have 2 that would walk into any team in Europe.

A 30+ a season striker has been a trait of every top team for the last decade. If United signed Caicedo instead of Hojlund, we're no closer in my eyes to the league. If Hojlund scores 20+ goals this season and leads the line, it's transformative for us.

Pretty big if though, and clearly Arteta didn't think any of the young talent on offer across Europe was worth the risk for the outlay involved.

Arsenal have spent over £200m on incomings in this window, but do you think you're genuinely closer to challenging City than last year? Has the first 11 been significantly upgraded when everyone is fit?

That's not a criticism on Arsenal, just a reflection on how crazy football has become and how high City have set the bar in terms of quality required to compete.
Yeh, a top level striker would have been good but as you say there aren't many options. We also let Balogun go and he has backed Eddie (which seems a decent decision so far, Eddie has improved a lot).

I agree that our starting 11 is not looking better than last season (so far anyway), but where I think we have improved is depth. Arteta has also tried a different formation, trying to evolve the team and tactics. Last season we crumbled due to lack of depth and being one dimensional in how we play. I'm happier with our squad depth overall and the likes of Kiwior, Vieira look strong options now. Especially with CL this season, I think we are better positioned to cope. Still not sold on the new approach (Partey at RB) but if not for a terrible start vs Fulham, we might have maximum points now. If Arteta can get the best out of Havertz, then we may have upgraded on Xhaka. That's looking a long shot right now, admittedly. Not too dissimilar from you guys relying on Hojlund to bring your play to the next level.
 

GoonerBear

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Hard to say really. I'm surprised you weren't in for a striker, but who was available? Then again, I feel like United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Co are always bemoaning the lack of top level strikers, yet City probably have 2 that would walk into any team in Europe.

A 30+ a season striker has been a trait of every top team for the last decade. If United signed Caicedo instead of Hojlund, we're no closer in my eyes to the league. If Hojlund scores 20+ goals this season and leads the line, it's transformative for us.

Pretty big if though, and clearly Arteta didn't think any of the young talent on offer across Europe was worth the risk for the outlay involved.

Arsenal have spent over £200m on incomings in this window, but do you think you're genuinely closer to challenging City than last year? Has the first 11 been significantly upgraded when everyone is fit?

That's not a criticism on Arsenal, just a reflection on how crazy football has become and how high City have set the bar in terms of quality required to compete.
Think we had decided early on that a midfielder was going to be the big outlay this summer given Partey's fitness and form concerns. I think next summer will be the time we look to bid for a striker.

Already seen some tentative links to Toney, Osimhen and Ferguson for next summer. Names might be nonsense but it does suggest that might be the primary area we look to strengthen next summer.

Of course form and injuries play a factor as well. We might need a Havertz replacement then for instance. :nervous:
 

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I can understand mega fees for top strikers, or overpaying for someone like Bellingham.

I'll put it this way - Hypothetically if Arsenal paid £170m and bought Osimhen only instead of Rice and Havertz, I'd put them up there with a better chance of winning the league.

For the record, I think Rice is a quality player even though I'm not a fan of him or the fanboyism around him. I look at it the same way as Enzo - quality players, but over the course of a season I don't see either of them being a difference maker for Arsenal or Chelsea.

If Arsenal don't win the League after landing the No. 1 target and marquee signing after running City close last season, what was the point? They'll still be looking for the missing piece next summer. Same goes for all clubs.
Agree with this. It's what City did with Haaland. They bought him, and immediately they won not only the CL, which was their main target, but they won the treble. I doubt another class midfielder would have secured a similar trophy haul.
 

GoonerGirly

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Think we had decided early on that a midfielder was going to be the big outlay this summer given Partey's fitness and form concerns. I think next summer will be the time we look to bid for a striker.

Already seen some tentative links to Toney, Osimhen and Ferguson for next summer. Names might be nonsense but it does suggest that might be the primary area we look to strengthen next summer.

Of course form and injuries play a factor as well. We might need a Havertz replacement then for instance. :nervous:
I'm thinking a Partey replacement would also be high on the list. He's just unable to stay fit and it's suicidal considering how crucial he is to us. Goodness knows how long he'll be out this time.
 

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Agree with this. It's what City did with Haaland. They bought him, and immediately they won not only the CL, which was their main target, but they won the treble. I doubt another class midfielder would have secured a similar trophy haul.
Agree to disagree there. They've shown they can win the league and FA Cup easily without a top recognised forward.

They really should have put Madrid out the Champions League the year prior, but I don't think Haaland was the difference in those games this season, more the fact that players like Modric and Benzema were a year older. He didn't score in the semi's or final, and that's where they stumbled in previous seasons.
 

GoonerGirly

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Agree with this. It's what City did with Haaland. They bought him, and immediately they won not only the CL, which was their main target, but they won the treble. I doubt another class midfielder would have secured a similar trophy haul.
It helps that they already had the best defensive and attacking midfielders in the league/world in their squad.
 

eire-red

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Yeh, a top level striker would have been good but as you say there aren't many options. We also let Balogun go and he has backed Eddie (which seems a decent decision so far, Eddie has improved a lot).

I agree that our starting 11 is not looking better than last season (so far anyway), but where I think we have improved is depth. Arteta has also tried a different formation, trying to evolve the team and tactics. Last season we crumbled due to lack of depth and being one dimensional in how we play. I'm happier with our squad depth overall and the likes of Kiwior, Vieira look strong options now. Especially with CL this season, I think we are better positioned to cope. Still not sold on the new approach (Partey at RB) but if not for a terrible start vs Fulham, we might have maximum points now. If Arteta can get the best out of Havertz, then we may have upgraded on Xhaka. That's looking a long shot right now, admittedly. Not too dissimilar from you guys relying on Hojlund to bring your play to the next level.
As depressing as this sounds, I think the primary goal for United is keeping within touching distance of City until Guardiola leaves and Haaland moves on in hopefully a couple of seasons.

Arsenal are closer to competing than us and I think could win the league in a couple of years if they keep the core of the squad together and manage to bring in a top striker next summer.

I think my main point is that they probably could achieve that without Rice (and definitely without Havertz). But signing someone like Rice keeps you in the top 3 in that interim period until you find that missing piece. But you probably still need to find the ideal partner for him - that illusive CM who can play those clever passes from deep and carry between the lines. Seems like most teams are crying out for that type of player.
 

eire-red

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Think we had decided early on that a midfielder was going to be the big outlay this summer given Partey's fitness and form concerns. I think next summer will be the time we look to bid for a striker.

Already seen some tentative links to Toney, Osimhen and Ferguson for next summer. Names might be nonsense but it does suggest that might be the primary area we look to strengthen next summer.

Of course form and injuries play a factor as well. We might need a Havertz replacement then for instance. :nervous:
Both would be class. Ferguson is probably closer in overall style to Jesus and would bed in quicker, but will cost probably well north of £100m.
 

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He was invisible. He had a big miss where he comically tried to volley but missed the ball completely right in front of the goal. Apart from that, didn't see him until he was subbed off.
To be fair, he was a pretty crucial part of United's goal. Gotta give him some credit for that
 

saivet

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Haven't seen the game. On paper, it looks like Arsenal had played themselves into more goal scoring opportunities (17 to 10 shots, 2.27 to 0.94 xG), dominated possession slightly (55%) and Havertz personal statistics read as if he had an average but not terrible game (88% passing accuracy, 2 shots, 1 key pass, 5 interceptions).

Was he so bad outside of those statistics or just the often cited "nothing player"?
The context of the match does play quite a big factor here. Garnacho was offside by a whisker in his disallowed goal and if he missed (the flag wasn't raised) that would have boosted our xg as it was a clear cut chance. Similarly, the xg after Rice scored would have been a lot closer than at the full time whistle as Jesus's goal was a clear cut chance that would have been worth over 0.6 xg.

In reality the game was closer than what the xg suggests in my opinion, particularly the last few minutes and injury time.
 

WeePat

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To be fair, he was a pretty crucial part of United's goal. Gotta give him some credit for that
Holy shit I forgot about that. I think what we've seen so far from Havertz is worse than anything I saw of him at Chelsea the last 3 years. It's still only a couple of games, so I think it's fair to give him more time to adjust to playing in midfield again. It's been years since he last played there.
 

GoonerGirly

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As depressing as this sounds, I think the primary goal for United is keeping within touching distance of City until Guardiola leaves and Haaland moves on in hopefully a couple of seasons.

Arsenal are closer to competing than us and I think could win the league in a couple of years if they keep the core of the squad together and manage to bring in a top striker next summer.

I think my main point is that they probably could achieve that without Rice (and definitely without Havertz). But signing someone like Rice keeps you in the top 3 in that interim period until you find that missing piece. But you probably still need to find the ideal partner for him - that illusive CM who can play those clever passes from deep and carry between the lines. Seems like most teams are crying out for that type of player.
Ah surely we can do better than just waiting for Pep and Haaland to move on? I like that Arsenal is trying to give it a real go.

From everything Arteta has said, he believes Rice is that missing piece of the puzzle. I think he sees Rice as his midfield anchor for the next decade. With Partey though being unreliable and injury-prone, we'll need to find another CM sooner rather than later.
 

Changeisgood

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Ah surely we can do better than just waiting for Pep and Haaland to move on? I like that Arsenal is trying to give it a real go.

From everything Arteta has said, he believes Rice is that missing piece of the puzzle. I think he sees Rice as his midfield anchor for the next decade. With Partey though being unreliable and injury-prone, we'll need to find another CM sooner rather than later.
Yes, that's why I was surprised we did not get a replacement for Partey now, knowing that he has been unreliable. Instead we spent on a luxury in Havertz. It was a strange transfer window.