Doping In Sport

[sullydnl]

Bit of a random thread but, given the amount of doping stories that are popping up in various sports, I thought having one thread for general discussion might be good? Rather than having to bump random threads for cycling, tennis, boxing, etc.

Particularly as two interesting stories have arisen today.

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I find the rugby story particularly interesting as there are so few high profile cases in that sport. Is there a lack of scrutiny there?

 

[Archie Leach]

I can't read the tweets but I'm assuming one is about the Canadian pole-vaulter who ingested coke mid-root from a slapper he met on Craigslist?

 

[sullydnl]

Nah, I went for Bradley Wiggins and Dan Carter instead. Feel I may have buried the lead.

 

[JosDeVos]

Doping is everywhere. I used to do a very niche form of archery where at best you'd get €25 for winning a national competition and even there I knew of people doping up ...

 

[Snowjoe]

I'm completely cynical about sport in general and assume everyone is on it basically.

 

[sullydnl]

Good (and tense) interview with Lance Armstrong on Irish radio today:

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Spoiler: He's still a lying bastard.

 

[donkeyfish]

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/t...ski-federation-cancels-huge-kick-off-2016-10/

 

[Mrs Smoker]

It's easy, girl.

http://list.wada-ama.org/list/s1-anabolic-agents/#clostebol

 

[sullydnl]

Also, mechanical doping.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mec...attempts-to-find-cheaters-at-this-years-tour/

 

[lem8sh]

Tennis is the sport doing the best at covering it up so far, there will a cycling style fallout soon enough though.

 

[EdWeatherall]

Where they at with the Spanish doping cover-up
I know they said not to destroy the blood and hand it over, wonder when we will start seeing action from that

 

[donkeyfish]

Where they at with the Spanish doping cover-up
I know they said not to destroy the blood and hand it over, wonder when we will start seeing action from that

Looks like nothing since the court released the samples in the summer. If the players in question have resigned, its not gonna be easy to find who they belong to.

Could be a massive bomb, or could go down in history as one of those suspect episodes that never provides sufficient proof for action.

 

[Samid]

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[rotherham_red]

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It's been a pretty open secret about Froome and Team Sky. Suspicions were raised as far back as his first Tour de France win.

 

[izec]

No surprise

 

[Henrik Larsson]

No surprise there with Froome indeed.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

There goes SPOTY.

 

[Amir]

Poor BBC, what timing

Early to know where this will be going. He can't get away with what was found in his body. I don't think he'll get anything close to the max, though.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

No surprise?

I'm fekin' surprised!

 

[Dargonk]

Always felt like it would be a matter of time before he was caught.

 

[donkeyfish]

Asthma medicine is the substance. As any other respectable athlete these days, he has asthma.

 

[onemanarmy]

Other cyclists have been suspended for way less Salbutamol in their urine. He might have asthma, and he might be allowed to use it, but there is a limit. He doubled that... He's going to have a very hard time explaining this result.

Petacchi : 1360ng/ml banned 1y
Ulissi : 1900ng/ml banned 9m
Froome : 2000ng/ml

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[Buchan]

If Froome is clean, his absolute explosion onto the scene at the 2011 Vuelta at the age of 26 - and what he's won subsequently - is the most astonishing sporting achievement I think I've ever witnessed.

He's a cheat and has been since 2011.

 

[kotha]

I'm surprised that a lot of people aren't surprised by it.. I don't follow much of cycling but I thought they improved the testing standards post Armstrong.. Especially in the big races like TDF and Vuelta..

Wiggins,Froome. Lot's of suspicions will be coming team SKY's way..

 

[Fergies Gum]

Great work from journalists Sean Ingle, Martha Kelner & Clément Guillou for exposing this.

 

[RedFish]

Always felt like it would be a matter of time before he was caught.

Copy and pasted from my post in the cycling thread.

I doubt the elevated concentration of salbutamol was as a result of premeditated cheating. He takes salbutamol, he has asthma, and the pharmacokinetics of Salbutamol ( I'm not a pharmacist) is complicared and not entirely predictable being affected by levels of dehydration, other drug interactions etc etc.

I prescribe Salbutamol all the time to asthmatic kids and it's 100mcg per puff. I think I read that the allowance is 1600mcg of inhaled Salbutamol in 24 hours or 800 Micrograms in 12 hours which is nothing. A kid coming into ED with an acute asthma exacerbation often gets back to back 10 puffs ( 20 or 30 puffs) for example. When they're better and discharged they're often on 6 puffs 4 hourly (18 puffs i.e.e 1800mcg in 12 hours therefore 36 puffs - 3600mcg in 24 hours).

I guess what I'm trying ( badly probably!) Is that it doesn't take much to exceed the max dosages allowed and that given it was only one urine test out if 21 that had exceeded the max concentration allowed in the urine 1000ng/ml then it would seem entirely possible that Froome did not exceed the max dosage but the elevated cincentration was spurious and as a result of some other confounding fsctorvthat affects the metabolism of Salbutamol, like dehydration etc etc......

I think it would be harsh to strip him of the Vuelta but I got a feeling it's going to end badly for him, and he'll be stripped of his win.

 

[Acole9]

Not surprised at all, team sky are the biggest bunch of cheats going.

 

[sullydnl]

I'm surprised that a lot of people aren't surprised by it.. I don't follow much of cycling but I thought they improved the testing standards post Armstrong.. Especially in the big races like TDF and Vuelta..

Wiggins,Froome. Lot's of suspicions will be coming team SKY's way..

Team Sky's credibility was shredded by the UKAD investigation, even if no charges were brought.

 

[rpitchfo]

Another poor asthma sufferer....what a load of rubbish.

 

[Dargonk]

Copy and pasted from my post in the cycling thread.

Thanks for taking the time to write that all out. Interesting read as I really do have no idea about drug levels and all that.

Even with that info, watching his performances over the last few years will always make people like myself doubt that he is clean. Unfortunately cycling has a very long way to go before a lot of people don't just assume all the top guys, particularly team sky are on something

 

[GBBQ]

I'm surprised that a lot of people aren't surprised by it.. I don't follow much of cycling but I thought they improved the testing standards post Armstrong.. Especially in the big races like TDF and Vuelta..

Wiggins,Froome. Lot's of suspicions will be coming team SKY's way..

Its hard to be anything but skeptical about someone who dominates a sport that is awash with doping scandals.

 

[King_Eric]

Regarding the higher prevalence of asthmatics in cycling and other top sports, there are actually a few (credible) reasons to explain this. Or at least to explain the higher occurence of symptoms.

However, the question I'm always asking myself is, if you're troubled by heavy asthma, should you be cycling at this level? Assuming that this is a kind of condition you're born with (correct me if I'm wrong), should it not be considered part of your 'talent' (or lack thereof) for this particular sport? And should medical exceptions be allowed for this? Is it for example different from people who are just born with a less suitable body or physiology for a certain sport?

In any case, there are regulations and he broke them, whatever the reason. Or whatever the extent of performance enhancement. So he should bear the consequences. Especially if you see that others with lower levels of this product have been punished quite severely in the past few years.

 

[T_Model101]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2...clists-drugs-cheats-tyson-fury-welcomed-back/

 

[Red Stone]

However, the question I'm always asking myself is, if you're troubled by heavy asthma, should you be cycling at this level?

It seems to almost be a requirement in all endurance sports at this point.

Mexican chemist Angel Hernandez has this to say about the use of asthma inhalers:

I call it the “transporter”. It opens and expands not only your lung capacity but also your pulmonary capability, so it has improved capacity to move the blood cells… In other words, if you were using EPO, or if you were using another substance like EPO, it would help you to boost endurance even more. It is like multiplying the effects by between three and five times.

The salbutamol (which also aids weight loss when taken in big doses) is likely just a part of a cocktail of drugs Froome takes to get to his performance levels. I think it's beyond any reasonable doubt that he's cheating on an epic scale. Hopefully this AAF will help unravel the whole charade.

 

[donkeyfish]

Copy and pasted from my post in the cycling thread.

I doubt the elevated concentration of salbutamol was as a result of premeditated cheating. He takes salbutamol, he has asthma, and the pharmacokinetics of Salbutamol ( I'm not a pharmacist) is complicared and not entirely predictable being affected by levels of dehydration, other drug interactions etc etc.

I prescribe Salbutamol all the time to asthmatic kids and it's 100mcg per puff. I think I read that the allowance is 1600mcg of inhaled Salbutamol in 24 hours or 800 Micrograms in 12 hours which is nothing. A kid coming into ED with an acute asthma exacerbation often gets back to back 10 puffs ( 20 or 30 puffs) for example. When they're better and discharged they're often on 6 puffs 4 hourly (18 puffs i.e.e 1800mcg in 12 hours therefore 36 puffs - 3600mcg in 24 hours).

I guess what I'm trying ( badly probably!) Is that it doesn't take much to exceed the max dosages allowed and that given it was only one urine test out if 21 that had exceeded the max concentration allowed in the urine 1000ng/ml then it would seem entirely possible that Froome did not exceed the max dosage but the elevated cincentration was spurious and as a result of some other confounding fsctorvthat affects the metabolism of Salbutamol, like dehydration etc etc......

I think it would be harsh to strip him of the Vuelta but I got a feeling it's going to end badly for him, and he'll be stripped of his win.

It's become such a complicated set of rules, especially when normal levels of various prescription drugs are against the rules.

Then again, a cyclist will never get the benefit of the doubt. It'd be quite naive given the history of the sport.

 

[RedFish]

It's become such a complicated set of rules, especially when normal levels of various prescription drugs are against the rules.

Then again, a cyclist will never get the benefit of the doubt. It'd be quite naive given the history of the sport.

Yep, honestly I'm so disappointed, devastated really. Team Sky set themselves up to be this shining light, a beacon of morality and transparency and they have fecked this up beyond epic proportions. From the Bradley Wiggins Parcel gate farce which until this day a line cannot be drawn to this current Salbutamol farce, it's testing the patience of cycling fans to the absolute limit. Sky are not alone, of course, it's certain that all pro teams are pushing the rules to the limit, it's the lack of transparency and then their disingenuousness when questioned that's hard to stomach.

I'm not sure that the salbutamol really has any performance enhancing effect given that it is a bronchodilator in the sense it relieves bronchoconstriction present during an asthmatic episode, rather than cause super- bronchodilation (in non asthmatics) if you catch my drift ( my only experience and knowledge of salbutamol is restricted to therapeutic use in viral induced wheeze/asthma). I'm not sure what to make of it all, but right now, as a cycling fan, I'm just about fed up. I might just end up supporting individual riders rather than a team. Honestly, I've just about had enough.

 

[Javi]

Copy and pasted from my post in the cycling thread.

I doubt the elevated concentration of salbutamol was as a result of premeditated cheating. He takes salbutamol, he has asthma, and the pharmacokinetics of Salbutamol ( I'm not a pharmacist) is complicared and not entirely predictable being affected by levels of dehydration, other drug interactions etc etc.

I prescribe Salbutamol all the time to asthmatic kids and it's 100mcg per puff. I think I read that the allowance is 1600mcg of inhaled Salbutamol in 24 hours or 800 Micrograms in 12 hours which is nothing. A kid coming into ED with an acute asthma exacerbation often gets back to back 10 puffs ( 20 or 30 puffs) for example. When they're better and discharged they're often on 6 puffs 4 hourly (18 puffs i.e.e 1800mcg in 12 hours therefore 36 puffs - 3600mcg in 24 hours).

I guess what I'm trying ( badly probably!) Is that it doesn't take much to exceed the max dosages allowed and that given it was only one urine test out if 21 that had exceeded the max concentration allowed in the urine 1000ng/ml then it would seem entirely possible that Froome did not exceed the max dosage but the elevated cincentration was spurious and as a result of some other confounding fsctorvthat affects the metabolism of Salbutamol, like dehydration etc etc......

I think it would be harsh to strip him of the Vuelta but I got a feeling it's going to end badly for him, and he'll be stripped of his win.

What about substances or other methods that would alter the tests? Is it possible to conceal this substance?

 

[RedFish]

Thanks for taking the time to write that all out. Interesting read as I really do have no idea about drug levels and all that.

Even with that info, watching his performances over the last few years will always make people like myself doubt that he is clean. Unfortunately cycling has a very long way to go before a lot of people don't just assume all the top guys, particularly team sky are on something

Agree, the sport has massive ground to make up,which over the last few years I think it has really, overall. The resistance you can feel from teams especially Sky, when faced with questions about their apparent breeches of the rules, just leave a dirty taste. Actions speak louder than words, and it's their own fault they can't live up to the shiny clean image they were so keen to project when they boldly emerged on the World Tour.

 

[RedFish]

What about substances or other methods that would alter the tests? Is it possible to conceal this substance?

Couldn't say really. Masking agents and such exist as well as diuretics etc, but those sorts of drugs are tested for I believe. I don't know and couldn't speculate. My suspicion is that they just pushed the rules to the limit, seeking an advantage without being in direct contravention of the rules. They cut it too fine though, and got caught as a result. Their reputation is in shatters and rightly so. Pity, as they have a brilliant roster of riders. After what's happened, Brailsford should be a gonner, but it would be typically arrogant oF him/SKY for him to stay, which I can easily envisage.

 

[RedFish]

Found this via Reddit.

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/12/secret-pro-thoughts-froomes-positive-bikes-ride/