DP Draft 720p Finals : Harms vs Pat Mustard

[GodShaveTheQueen]

THE CRITERIA FOR VOTING IS WHO DEBATED BETTER - NOT WHO HAS THE BETTER TEAM
POLL OPENS 12 HOURS AFTER KICK OFF

--------------------------------HARMS--------------------------------------------------------------------PAT MUSTARD

Team Harms (AM - EAP)

Formation: 3-4-3 transforming into 4-3-3 in defensive phase with Júnior dropping back to fullback
Defensive line: High
Pressing: High

Considering the scary attacking line-up by Pat & Mike it may look too risky to play with a high-line but the years of watching modern football has shown us that this risk pays off way more often than not. Especially with our incredible defensive line that suits the approach to the t — and while no arguments are needed for Krol (who had mastered the totaalvoetbal for Ajax & Netherlands) and Vogts (who had shined in an often suicidally attacking Borussia Mönchengladbach), perhaps something should be said about Scirea... but the reality is, while he had never played in such set up, he is probably the most intelligent defender of all-time (I'd say that he had relied on his reading of the game the most out of the usual GOAT contenders), quick, agile and incredible with the ball.

Our midfield is a thing of beauty by itself — it has everything, passing, technique, goals, grit, leadership Platini - Keane - Redondo is a mouth-watering unit and the addition of Júnior makes it even more formidable (and less predictable).

The whole team is filled with hardworking players but that front three still stands out — when we talk about pressing from the top, it's hard to find a better unit. And even aside from the defensive work, we really like how different all three of our forwards are, each providing a unique challenge to Pat's backline. Gerd Müller, goalscorer extraordinare (and many things more), Ruud Gullit — probably the most complete footballer of all-time with the physique of a Greek god and Zbigniew Boniek, one of the best players to exploit gaps in defensive structures — a raumdeuter before the raumdeuter if you may (with an additional bonus of being blistering fast).

Leo Júnior

We really wanted to build a team that highlights Leo Júnior — a player of incredible talent that doesn't get mentioned among the best ever left backs often enough. He perfectly fits into Guardiola's concept of a false fullback — starting out as a left back in defensive phase he pushed forward and centrally, joining midfield, in the build-up and attacking phase. It's a role that was pretty natural for him for Brazil & Flamengo — he and Breitner became famous because of their unique interpretation of fullback's role — but it also references his role at Torino. Júnior was a bit late to the Serie A party, joining Torino only in 1984, but it didn't take long for him to prove himself. He started playing as a midfielder — not as a fullback as he usually did — and led Torino to the 2nd place in his first season at the club... as a cherry on top of the cake, he was voted Serie A Footballer of the Year — ahead of the likes of Platini, Elkjær, Zico, Maradona & Rummenigge

Scirea - Platini - Boniek

The backbone of our side is made out of the core of almighty Juventus of the 80's. In the game where you have all-time greats in every position, that kind of a chemistry can prove itself to be the game-deciding factor. It goes without saying how good Scirea and Platini performed together but the link-up between Platini and Boniek was even better — it's not going to be an overstatement to say that they have formed one of the best footballing partnerships of all-time alongside Xavi & Iniesta, Breitnigge and van Basten & Gullit.

Play of the day

Júnior's brilliant one-two with Michel Platini

[/QUOTE]


Team Pat Mustard (AM - Mike)

Formation: 4-3-3 False 9

The incomparable conductor Alfredo Di Stefano will orchestrate the match for us from the nominal False 9 position. Supremely influential and at his peak a seemingly omnipresent figure on the pitch, he'll shuttle up and down the pitch at will here. Stoichkov and especially Eusebio, both voracious goalscorers with pace to burn, will relish surging into the central spaces when The Don drops deeper. 'Fluid' is an oft-used term in drafts to describe an attacking unit but I feel it's truly applicable here - all three attackers can drop deep, attack the opposition from multiple channels of the pitch, and function as the rapier point of our attack at any given time.

It's worth pointing out the immense regard Di Stefano and Eusebio held for one another, with Di Stefano biographer Ian Hawkey describing their relationship as a 'mutual appreciation society'. Upon Eusebio's death in 2014, Di Stefano said that "in my opinion, Eusebio will always be the greatest player of all time.” Eusebio, for his part, after a career that included a European Cup win and a Ballon d'Or amongst numerous other accolades, still felt that swapping shirts with Di Stefano after a Benfica vs Real Madrid match was “the greatest satisfaction of my life” . The two legends did fleetingly line up in the same team once before in the 1963 England vs Rest of The World friendly match, but it's nice to imagine them linking up again in the pressure-cooker setting of a Redcafe Draft Final.

With Di Stefano as our playmaker-in-chief and Amoros tasked with providing an attacking outlet on our right flank, our other consensus G.O.A.T. candidate Franz Beckenbauer will play a more restrained and disciplined role marshaling the defence. His preternatural composure and ability on the ball will be an immense asset for the quality of our deeper build-up play, but he'll ration his bursts forward in this match. The opposition's central attacking axis of Platini and Muller is potentially match-deciding in any company, but Kaiser-Nesta, with a top-notch, dedicated DM in Voronin ahead of them, is an exceptionally strong defensive spine for them to crack.

Our midfield measures up well here too in terms of quality and structure: an absolutely top-class DM with a knack of neutering world class opponents in Voronin, a consumate all-rounder who meshed perfectly with other playmakers in Falcao, and a B2B machine in Bryan Robson.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Good luck @harms @Pat_Mustard @Edgar Allan Pillow @Michaelf7777777

 

[harms]

The first thing is something that I feel I'm writing in every game now but what a fantastic team by @Pat_Mustard and @Michaelf7777777.

I think we've managed to do 2 big tactical drafting moves:

1. by drafting Müller, which forced them to either choose not quite a GOAT-level striker or to go with the false 9, which was their decision
2. by picking Vogts and forcing them into a more attacking option in Amoros next to Beckenbauer

Does it give us a big advantage? Eh... Probably not. But this, especially the second part, at least gives us some basis for nit-picking. Vogts would've been a perfect addition to their backline, adding the necessary cover for Beckenbauer's runs. Would they be horribly exposed there? Surely not. But it's a point where a tactical advantage can be theoretically gained by us.

As you can expect, I've made a compilation of a key encounter for this game — Zbigniew Boniek vs Manuel Amoros. As anyone who dealt with FIFA can expect, they've blocked it immediately. So, let me transform 90 minutes of video footage into 90 (I'm not going to count them, are you?) words:

It was a 3rd place play-off game of the 1982 World Cup. France had a good squad, albeit missing a few players, with Trésor and Amoros (Young Player of the Tournament) at the back & the ever-present Tigana in front of them. Poland had a decent team but the great Grzegorz Lato was already fading away — so it was left to Zmuda's towering presence at the back and Boniek's dynamism up front to make up the difference. Boniek played as a free-roaming forward (his best performance came in the second group stage game against Belgium, where he had scored a perfect hat-trick — but that compilation is also blocked by FIFA), terrorising the entire French backline — it was a sight to watch. Anytime a defender left even a centimetre of free space, Boniek was already sprinting there, trying to get an upper hand — and succeeding in doing so. Technically he only produced 1 assist (and incredible lobbed pass that left 5 French defenders biting the dust) — but he also created a few clear-cut chances for himself and his partners as well as earning a free kick for the winner. Amoros performed quite nicely by the way, including the interesting trick that I actually associate with him, switching the flanks at half time — but his best contribution was in attack (some of his shots were just wonderful) and at the back it was very different to stop the elusive electric eel that was Boniek.




Now remember that the best passer that Boniek had in that Polish team was probably Grzegorz Lato — an ageing wing-forward who dropped deeper do to his diminishing athletic abilities. Here he has a vast array of brilliant passers of the ball to spot his dangerous runs including Redondo, Júnior and Scirea... but, most importantly, Michel Platini. I doubt that there was a partnership that had a significantly better chemistry than those two — the most similar one to compare them with would be the one that was formed a few years before theirs, Paul Breitner and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge. The beauty of those partnerships were in their adaptability — both players possessed high football IQ and were equally brilliant as creators and as goalscorers. Boniek's runs often led to free spaces in the middle for Platini to roam into and score — but if defenders decided to stop following Boniek and get back in shape, he would punish them mercilessly.

 

[harms]

Another role worth highlighting here is the one of Leo Júnior. I doubt that I need to remind anyone of the stature of Serie A in the 80's — after it allowed clubs to sign foreign players again. It was crème de la crème of the time and everyone wanted to play there. Which, obviously, led to the level of competition that was almost unmatched by any other league in history (only Serie A itself from the 90's can probably match it by star power).

Júnior signed for Torino in 1984. The club was in a decent position, finishing 5th in theirs last season, but they needed a spark to finally challenge for the title again — and in Júnior they found just that spark. For those who knew Júnior for his role in the unforgettable Brazil vintage of '82, his role for Torino may have been a bit surprising, but I'll give the word to Leo himself: "My dream was to be a midfielder, but between Falcao, Zico and Cerezo it was not easy to find space: I returned to midfield when Zico left Flamengo to go to Udinese. When Moggi called me I asked him what role he wanted to take me in, he told me I would be a midfielder and I accepted. If he had told me to be a full-back I would have stayed in Brazil. I was born a midfielder, then they made me climb to full-back and I stayed in that area of the pitch for many years but I wanted to go back to midfield and Torino made me do it ".


He was an instant success — patrolling the space in front of defense, dictating the play from deeper areas, peeling out wide (on the right wing as well as on the left — don't forget that he was right-footed and started out as a right back), assisting, scoring, taking free-kicks, corners and penalties. Torino, let by the "Daddy Júnior" had done almost enough to secure themselves the title — even beating their main rivals, Elkjær's Verona, at their home (as well as producing a wonderful comeback in the derby against Platini's Juventus), but a series of draws near the end of the season cost them invaluable points.
Torino came second, but Júnior was chosen as Serie A Footballer of the Year — ahead of:

• Michel Platini, the greatest player in the world
• Preben Elkjær, Danish striker at the peak of his powers that just led Verona to a historic achievement
• Diego Maradona, an Argentinian talent touched by God himself that Napoli broke the world transfer record for
• Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, the brightest German star in the post-Beckenbauer & Müller era and arguably the greatest player of the late 70's-early 80's
• Zico, Socrates, Scirea, Boniek, Laudrup, Souness, Cerezo, Passarella, Rossi — you name it

However, his following years would not be quite so successful as the club struggled to find players with the ability to finish off the chances that he would create and although they did not possess the strongest squad, having lost top scorer Aldo Serena to Juventus, they still managed an unbelievable fifth placed finish by relying on a lot of Primavera youngsters but especially the conductor of their orchestra, Leo Junior. The next year, Leo would continue to thrill fans with his displays of defensive desire and offensive ability in equal measure but sadly it would prove to be his last with the club.

 

[harms]

And the last point for tonight — about countering the mouth-watering attack of Pat's.

In all of the games where I've seen Eusébio being neutralised (at least to a point), it was with a very proactive and aggressive defending. Most notable of those would be by Bobby Moore — the younger version of himself who often loved to play as a jedi and (seemingly random until you saw the actual play 10 seconds later) push forward in order to intercept the ball in midfield or even sometimes further forward.

The 1963 game against England is an interesting example since Eusébio was playing alongside Di Stéfano (as well as Law, Gento & Kopa, but only for 45 minutes) and Moore masterfully outplayed them, pushing them as far from the goal as possible and intercepting their aesthetically pleasing one-twos etc.

The 1966 game against England was a masterful example of disarming Eusébio — who was probably at his absolute best, finishing the tournament with 9 goals — again, Moore took the extremely proactive approach, single-handedly pushing the entire Portuguese offense further backward with Eusébio being more or less forced to drop in midfield and carry the ball from there. He had scored from a penalty but he had nothing to do with it in the first place iirc.

The 1966 game against USSR was an even better example. Again, peak Eusébio — but USSR are crippled by the loss of their best defender, Shesternyov. They had do adapt and went back to a formation with Voronin as a libero (with a man-marking job, which sounds like an oxymoron...) that they've used in a few friendlies before the tournament. All credit to Voronin there for an excellent man-marking job, arguably one of the greatest ones on big stages of football tournaments, but still — aggressive and proactive defending and Eusébio is neutralised. Another penalty goal that had nothing to do with Eusébio — Khurtsilava forgot that he wasn't on a volleyball championship and conceded one of the weirdest handball offences on my memory.

A set up without a clear stopper centrally also suits this fluid front three of Pat's — someone like van Basten would've provided a much tougher challenge for our backline but there are no van Basten's here. But when it comes to reading of the game and fluidity, it's hard to find better personnel than Scirea & Krol — not to belittle Berti Vogts who was, without the doubt, one of the greatest defenders of all-time. His role would probably be a bit more straight-forward with Stoichkov there, but he's more than adaptable to face any possible threat.

 

[Himannv]

What happened to the poll?

 

[Isotope]

...

The 1966 game against England was a masterful example of disarming Eusébio — who was probably at his absolute best, finishing the tournament with 9 goals — again, Moore took the extremely proactive approach, single-handedly pushing the entire Portuguese offense further backward with Eusébio being more or less forced to drop in midfield and carry the ball from there. He had scored from a penalty but he had nothing to do with it in the first place iirc.
...

Ooohh... @General_Elegancia

 

[harms]

What happened to the poll?

THE CRITERIA FOR VOTING IS WHO DEBATED BETTER - NOT WHO HAS THE BETTER TEAM
POLL OPENS 12 HOURS AFTER KICK OFF

By the way, tell me if you’ll have any issues with setting up the poll @GodShaveTheQueen

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

By the way, tell me if you’ll have any issues with setting up the poll @GodShaveTheQueen

Created at the 12 hour mark.

@Pat_Mustard , where art thou?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Think michael is leading the debate for them

 

[Jim Beam]

 

[harms]

Think michael is leading the debate for them

 

[harms]

I'll wait for Pat (or Michael) to respond before commenting further.

 

[Himannv]

I'm liking the look of harm's team and the Junior tactic is simple but provides nice tactical flexibility so I'm leaning towards voting for that.

Not a fan of voting for the better debator.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Created at the 12 hour mark.

@Pat_Mustard , where art thou?

Finally back home with time to spare but I'm now suffering with some fecked up vertigo attack . I'll make a few posts before retiring to a darkened room.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

The first thing is something that I feel I'm writing in every game now but what a fantastic team by @Pat_Mustard and @Michaelf7777777.

I think we've managed to do 2 big tactical drafting moves:

1. by drafting Müller, which forced them to either choose not quite a GOAT-level striker or to go with the false 9, which was their decision
2. by picking Vogts and forcing them into a more attacking option in Amoros next to Beckenbauer

Does it give us a big advantage? Eh... Probably not. But this, especially the second part, at least gives us some basis for nit-picking. Vogts would've been a perfect addition to their backline, adding the necessary cover for Beckenbauer's runs. Would they be horribly exposed there? Surely not. But it's a point where a tactical advantage can be theoretically gained by us.

Lovely, innovative team from you too mate.

I'll not lie, I was a tad dismayed to log on, read the rules for the final and see that you'd already scooped up Muller . I felt we responded perfectly with Nesta and Beckenbauer though - it was an exceptionally strong pool for great liberos, but Nesta was in a tier of his own as an appropriate partner for them. Actually, Cannavaro runs him fairly close imo and is generally underrated, but that's for another thread.

Vogts never figured into our plans tbh. It was clear that at least one and almost certainly both of Di Stefano and Zico were ours for the taking, so Eusebio was our biggest priority for our attack, and therefore we'd want a high-level provider of attacking width at RB. Vogts might be underrated in that regard but it was a straight choice between Amoros and Brehme for us really. To coin a Gio-ism, that might mean Kaiser playing with the handbrake on, but the trade-off was worth it for us.

 

[harms]

Vogts never figured into our plans tbh. It was clear that at least one and almost certainly both of Di Stefano and Zico were ours for the taking, so Eusebio was our biggest priority for our attack, and therefore we'd want a high-level provider of attacking width at RB. Vogts might be underrated in that regard but it was a straight choice between Amoros and Brehme for us really. To coin a Gio-ism, that might mean Kaiser playing with the handbrake on, but the trade-off was worth it for us

Fair enough. You usually have sacrifice something in those GOAT teams and that wasn’t the worst pay off.

 

[harms]

As for Nesta — sure. We were going to pick either him or Beckenbauer in the 2nd round if even one of them would have been left for us to pick (obviously there wasn’t a world where you wouldn’t pick at least one of them), but you took it from us and it was the best move you could’ve done there.

 

[harms]

Take it with a pinch of salt like any quotes about past greats, but Beckenbauer's words about Gerd Müller were always the best compliment about him in my eyes:

Despite everything he did, Beckenbauer added with a smile that people would sometimes be annoyed with him in training because he kept scoring there as well.

What he did with us was basically an insult, we thought. Sometimes Katsche Schwarzenbeck and I would say we didn't care today, today we'll give him a good thrashing if necessary. But we still never caught him. He kept running alone towards goal. If I hadn't experienced Gerd up close every day, I wouldn't have believed it

"Whenever we had concerns before a game, Gerd didn't want to know any of it," Beckenbauer recalls. "He'd always say in his unique dialect, 'Ah, stop it. We'll beat them easily'. Gerd was the one who gave me the ease I needed. I was never one to have great doubts, but if I ever had concerns that something might go wrong, Gerd would wipe those thoughts away from me. 'What could happen, Franz? We can do it!'

Who's Bayern's best-ever player? Franz Beckenbauer or Gerd Müller? It's a common question, but Der Kaiser himself has a clear opinion on the matter, as he explained for his long-time roommate's 75th birthday:

Without Gerd, we would never have had that success. He scored the goals and had the mentality that took us forward. I'd perhaps say Gerd wasn't the best player but he was the most important. Sometimes you get classifications like 'most valuable player'. He was that. Gerd was the MVP. In that respect, he was also the most important

edit: of course, Thomas Müller commented under this video

 

[Pat_Mustard]

And the last point for tonight — about countering the mouth-watering attack of Pat's.

In all of the games where I've seen Eusébio being neutralised (at least to a point), it was with a very proactive and aggressive defending. Most notable of those would be by Bobby Moore — the younger version of himself who often loved to play as a jedi and (seemingly random until you saw the actual play 10 seconds later) push forward in order to intercept the ball in midfield or even sometimes further forward.

The 1963 game against England is an interesting example since Eusébio was playing alongside Di Stéfano (as well as Law, Gento & Kopa, but only for 45 minutes) and Moore masterfully outplayed them, pushing them as far from the goal as possible and intercepting their aesthetically pleasing one-twos etc.

The 1966 game against England was a masterful example of disarming Eusébio — who was probably at his absolute best, finishing the tournament with 9 goals — again, Moore took the extremely proactive approach, single-handedly pushing the entire Portuguese offense further backward with Eusébio being more or less forced to drop in midfield and carry the ball from there. He had scored from a penalty but he had nothing to do with it in the first place iirc.

The 1966 game against USSR was an even better example. Again, peak Eusébio — but USSR are crippled by the loss of their best defender, Shesternyov. They had do adapt and went back to a formation with Voronin as a libero (with a man-marking job, which sounds like an oxymoron...) that they've used in a few friendlies before the tournament. All credit to Voronin there for an excellent man-marking job, arguably one of the greatest ones on big stages of football tournaments, but still — aggressive and proactive defending and Eusébio is neutralised. Another penalty goal that had nothing to do with Eusébio — Khurtsilava forgot that he wasn't on a volleyball championship and conceded one of the weirdest handball offences on my memory.

A set up without a clear stopper centrally also suits this fluid front three of Pat's — someone like van Basten would've provided a much tougher challenge for our backline but there are no van Basten's here. But when it comes to reading of the game and fluidity, it's hard to find better personnel than Scirea & Krol — not to belittle Berti Vogts who was, without the doubt, one of the greatest defenders of all-time. His role would probably be a bit more straight-forward with Stoichkov there, but he's more than adaptable to face any possible threat.

It's a good case you've put forward there about keeping Eusebio further from goal - he drew a blank in multiple games against Ajax's high line too, albeit very late in his career. That said (and I know from bitter experience how annoying it is to come up against this argument every time you commit to a high line in your tactics ), it's a risky proposition leaving space in behind for Eusebio and Stoichkov to run into.

I'd point out also that while dropping deep and running with the ball was undoubtedly a key feature of Eusebio's game anyway, it was heightened by him being the go-to guy in that Portugal team by a country mile - even with skilful players like Simoes and Coluna in the team they seemed to try to get him on the ball constantly. Whereas here with Di Stefano pulling the strings and top-notch creativty from the likes of Falcao as well, we see him utilising his off-the-ball movement more frequently rather than constantly getting the ball to feet in deeper areas.

I'm going to have to go and collapse into bed for a bit, but lastly I'll bring up the one structural quibble I have with you team, namely the lack of any left-footers on your left wing. Now Boniek was still amply capable of causing havoc from any channel of the pitch (that free kick he won vs Amoros' France was from wide left for one), but I do feel like having at least one leftie on that flank opens up the pitch that bit more. And, yes, it's quite pedantic, and I seem to mention it multiple times per draft lately.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Harms's team has one thing that can decides the game and that's call Aerial dominance.Gerd Muller and Ruud Gullit are two of the best headers in the game during our time. The aerial dominance doesn't mean only in term of scoring but it means the abilties to dominate in the air and continue in the actions like this goal.You could see that Hruebech won a header against a French defender and then he passed to other teammates and then scored the goal.


Litti crossed then Hruebech headed and finished by Fischer tremendous overhead kick.

Nesta and Beckenbauer both are great defenders for sure and both of them are not liability in the air but this match they will face Gerd Muller and Gullit two of god level headers,although Muller was only 175cm,he had a great leap and heading skills that can tore your defenders like a piece of paper.

"His pace was incredible. In training I have played against him and I never had a chance." (Franz Beckenbauer about Gerd Müller)

Beckenbauer have said like this stuff a lot of times about his friend "Gerd Muller"

I get the idea that you play Junior at cmf when attacking,by the way his habbit is similar to Brietner or even Krol that he like cut inside to link with midfielders and then continue the actions in different ways maybe passing or even scoring.Sometimes he was a liabilty on defense(a lot of times in WC82) but then you know and instead of back4 you use 2centerbacks(Krol and Scirea) and one marking defender(Vogts) to covered his weakness and then you can use his strength in to maximum level:support attackers.

Berti Vogts

I don't think Vogts was pure right back in later of his career ,after 1976 I notice that he always became to man-marking defenders or even a lot of times at center-back.His strengths was sometimes his weakness and you know what I'm talking about.I'm talking about his clumsiness.Vogts was always given an assignment to shut down or marking a famous wingers or strikers like Dzajic,Amancio,Keegan or even Gerd Muller.I have watched Vogts versus Dzajic,Amancio or even Keegan and I have seen him being frustated by all of them especially Dzajic and it's the same everytime mistackle,clumsy and too much sliding.In fact he didn't have Maldini's or even Thuram's levels of decisions and reading the games,he was inferior or weakest in term of readings compared to Thuram,Maldini and Nilton.

I'm sure that if he plays today.he will be in a lot of clips like "famous players get humillated".
Although Vogts sometimes was clumsy and rushed too much,he had a fighting spirits and do or die attitude that can instead all of his weakness that he had and became top-man markers.

Harms

Despite Harms has a complete team and no weakness,I see one thing that you should a bit concern and that's called "scoring prowess".Your front three outside Gerd aren't dominant scorers but that's not a problem because I'm sure you use Platini as an second options scorer but if you have a bit better third scoring options,you team will on the heaven .

Although Boniek and Gullit aren't dominant scorers both of them have a great workrates,real life chemistry between Platini and Boniek and both of them are great teamwork players too.

Question to Harms

When Junior became left back in defensive phase,does Redondo transforms from dmf to left box to box midfieders?
like this Platini
Redondo Keane

@harms

31years old Vogts versus Prime Blokhin in 1977

I can see some similarities in Blokhin and Stoichkov game,not the same game but a lot of similarities.Fast and pacey forwards who usually use the flank to dribble past defenders by accleration and out of this world top speed and like to score .But this clip can't tell everything because Vogts was succesful marked Cryuff who was a very pacey players too(different games to Blokhin and Stoichkov).

 

[harms]

When Junior became left back in defensive phase,does Redondo transforms from dmf to left box to box midfieders?
like this Platini
Redondo Keane

More or less, yes. Not overly attacking box-to-box since, well, in attacking phase Júnior joins in, but midfield in a defensive phase looks like

Platini
Redondo - Keane
​

 

[harms]

I don't disagree with you on Vogts @General_Elegancia — he had this Puyol-esque feeling about him. But then for me he had the biggest issues with intricate dribblers — infamously Džajić and Blokhin had performed quite well against him too. Stoichkov shares some similarities with Blokhin, but while Stoichkov had an upper hand in terms of goalthreat (I'm a bit lazy to check it but I feel like his peak goalscoring seasons should be more productive than Blokhin even though Blokhin had probably scored more goals over the entire course of his career), he was less technical and relied more on his outstanding movement, speed and, of course, shooting technique. While Blokhin's best traits were his speed and dribbling technique — goalscoring was secondary. And I'd be pretty happy to have Vogts against a more physical and straight-forward Stoichkov here (even though ideally I'd pick Thuram for the job).

Surprised to see where your vote went after reading your post though

 

[Gio]

Both teams are beautifully set up. Probably won’t have the time to follow the debate in too much depth so will be voting on the calibre of the teams.

 

[harms]

And, of course, there's Ruud Gullit — technically on the right, even though I'd expect him and Boniek to switch places from time to time. He's really there to make Nesta's life impossible, forcing him to stretch between Gullit & Müller only for Boniek to exploit the space that would open up.

Here's post-peak Gullit against an equally impressive AC Milan's defensive line, inspiring Sampdoria to an incredible 3:2 comeback from 2 goals down:

 

[Michaelf7777777]

I think that in addition to Di Stefano and Falcao, another vital source of creativity and ball retention for us will be Voronin who was described by veteran Russian journalist Leonid Repin as follows:

I remember Voronin well in the game. In a difficult moment, as if in the blink of an eye, he was transported to a hot spot near his goal and with an elusive movement took the ball away from under the feet of the attackers. Or suddenly burst into the opponent's penalty area and, stretching out the flinching defense, gave a clever, scoring pass to his striker. But most of all, oddly enough, he delighted me with his play in the center of the field, when, accepting the ball with some graceful, feline movement, Voronin raised his head, taking his eyes off the tamed beast, and, with lightning speed, assessing the location of the moving pieces on the chessboard fields, so disposed of the ball that involuntarily escaped a sigh of admiration

Source

Additionally an unnamed Soviet defender from the 1960's thought that:

that Voronin was in their team at the London World Championship, like Zidane or Figo is now: “You can't take the ball away from him without a foul”.

Source

 

[harms]

Not sure about creativity per se — compared to the talent on the pitch (Di Stéfano, Falcão, Redondo, Platini) I wouldn’t call him creative. His passing was more akin to Keane’s (from those players who are on the pitch) — very efficient and forward-oriented, but without that extra flair that the likes of Redondo or Busquets have. He loved an occasional backheel or an interesting flick, but not enough to be considered a playmaking defensive midfielder (again, at the highest level).

Ball retention though — yeah, that’s absolutely true. The combination of technique & physique made it almost impossible to get the ball of him and he loved showing off his skill.

Although, if we’re being true to the source, the latter Zidane/Figo quote is given with a hint of irony — both at today’s football that doesn’t care about the past and at the reminiscing oldies that tend to romanticize their time. It’s kinda hard to get through the translation (especially since it’s the general mood of the whole article and not just that phrase), but I’ve tried to anyway

Football, for better or for worse, doesn’t care about the old memories. Old-timers’ tales are getting written off as grumbling towards the current heroes — and the veterans themselves can’t help but get further and further away from the past, focusing on what’s happening right this moment. But from time to time in an interview with a Soviet defender from the 60’s you’ll get an impulsive remark sliding in — how during the London’s World Cup Voronin was just like Figo or Zidane are today, “you couldn’t get the ball off him without a foul”.

 

[harms]

With all of @GodShaveTheQueen 's carefully thought-through leverage expiring the game resorted back to barely functioning both at the voting and discussing level
Still worked great as an experiment though, the amount of votes in earlier games were incredible.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

With all of @GodShaveTheQueen 's carefully thought-through leverage expiring the game resorted back to barely functioning both at the voting and discussing level
Still worked great as an experiment though, the amount of votes in earlier games were incredible.

Yea, the idea for the finals has not turned out that good. Oh well, some work, some dont

 

[harms]

THE CRITERIA FOR VOTING IS WHO DEBATED BETTER - NOT WHO HAS THE BETTER TEAM

I don't know how @Pat_Mustard managed to convinced Mike to post anything but that's enough to get us K.O.-ed based on this criteria

Yea, the idea for the finals has not turned out that good. Oh well, some work, some dont

Certainly a worthy introduction though. Hopefully other people will try to introduce it in future drafts.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

A reminder of what Stoichkov was all about, as he scores twice and assists once in Barca's 4-0 trouncing of Fergie's first great Utd team. Aside from his formidable end product, his defensive workrate is impressive - Harms has assembled a team of proper grafters but we're not likely to be out-hustled here. He's so comfortable taking up positions in the outside channels too. There's no obvious mismatches on show here on either team, but Stoichkov's ability to find spaces between Vogts and the right-sided shuttler Keane does look like a promising outlet for us.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Pat Mustard

Alfredo Di Stefano's scoring records
510goals in 710games
Stoichkov's scoring records
327goals in 679games
Eusebio's scoring records
622goals in 631games

Although you can't straight compare between Stoichkov and Eusebio with Gullit and Boniek because of their different roles and jobs during the games but I still say that Mustard has better goalscoring options.Their 3options of scoring are pretty unstoppable when they are in forms,just imagine MSN Barcelona.If Messi wasn't in his best form,he still had Neymar and Suarez to scored instead of him.And I can't see the problem in workrates since Di Stefano and Stoichkov both of them had decent defensive workrates.

And I think this line up can be build great performances from Di Stefano who is the second best players on the pitch too(behind Franz).In the attacking phase Di Stefano's can control the game like he want and Pat's lineup doesn't have another ball dominant playmaker who like to control the game(like Didi).Di Stefano noitourious habbit was " a big boss" attitude,he liked to be the only one to set the tempo of the game.Pat wide players like Stoichkov and Di Stefano both of them has accleration,speed and goal scoring instincts to match with Di Stefano's ideal game.I can't see the problem from Di Stefano with Franz and Didi,Franz play very different area from Di Stefano.Although in his playing days he had played at libero throughout his great career and he often joined the attacked and playmaked a lot,he couldn't do that all the game for sure.He had a lot of defensive jobs to do.He even played in back4 with Bayern Munchen.

Falcao was a different players and played in different roles from Didi and he wouldn't be clash with the Don for sure.

Voronin as destroyer with great ball playing skills,Falcao as b2b/attacking midfielder and Robson as b2b midfielder can cooperate really well too.

Eusebio and Stoickov will be supported by Fachetti and Amoros(two of attacking left back/right back).

Amoros another underrated player

Monaco

• Division 1: 1981–82, 1987–88
• Coupe de France: 1984–85

Marseille

• Division 1: 1989–90, 1990–91, 1991–92
• UEFA Champions League: 1992–93; runner-up: 1990–91

International
France

• UEFA European Championship: 1984
• FIFA World Cup third place: 1986

Individual

• FIFA World Cup Best Young Player: 1982
• Onze d'Argent: 1984
• French Player of the Year: 1986
• FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 1986
• Fifa XI:1988
• World Soccer World XI:1986,1987
• French Player of the year:1986

Fachetti

"He was the greatest figure on the field and off it; above all he contributed to change the role of the defenders, becoming one of the first 'fluid' fullback, attacking and scoring during the match" (Sandro Mazzola about Giacinto Facchetti)
He was also the inspiration for Beckenbauer's going forward move.He had seen Facchetti moved forward a lot of times from wide positions and then he took that and evolved the libero position.

Ooohh... @General_Elegancia

Unpopular opinion

Pierre Littbarski should received 1982 best young player instead Amoros.

 

[harms]

Congrats @Pat_Mustard @Michaelf7777777, well-deserved victory! Thanks for the draft, I enjoyed all the new experiences and the goal to entertain the managers for as long as possible @GodShaveTheQueen

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Based on voting criteria harms should have won.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Congratulations on the win @Pat_Mustard @Michaelf7777777

Kudos for a great campaign as usual @harms

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

See I managed to drag harms to a loss!

Congrats Pat/Mike!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Congrats @Pat_Mustard @Michaelf7777777, well-deserved victory! Thanks for the draft, I enjoyed all the new experiences and the goal to entertain the managers for as long as possible @GodShaveTheQueen

Cheers Harms and hard luck. I think it's safe to say you won the debate there with a series of brilliant posts. Thanks for running the draft @GodShaveTheQueen . Great fun from start to finish!

 

[Isotope]

Congrats, Pat and Mike. Both teams are just insanely good to watch.