DP Draft 720p SF: Harms (EAP) vs Isotope (Elegencia)

[GodShaveTheQueen]

---------------------------------------HARMS-----------------------------------------------------------------------------ISOTOPE

Team Harms (EAP)

Spoiler: Bench

T. Cerezo, J. Alba, A. Chivadze, A. Carbajal, Rivelino, D Passarella, A Demyanenko, Tostao, R Higuita, Dunga, D Mackay, P Montero, Z. Boniek

Formation:

Modern 3-5-2 (transforming into 3-4-3) with intensive pressing & fluid front three (think of Gasperini’s Atalanta or Tuchel’s Chelsea). This approach will allow us to take control of this game and force our opponent to simplify their build-up — this should play into our hands considering that they don’t have an elite passing athlete from the back (neither a passing defender nor a deep-lying playmaker) even though all of them were obviously competent with the ball.

Building around Zico

Regardless of whenever Souness starts this game or watches it from the bench, I feel that mentioning one of Zico’s greatest individual performances are in order. Not only Zico’s though, it’s one of the greatest individual performances by any player in history of this game. I’m talking about the 1981 Intercontinental final where Zico played against the all-conquering Paisley’s Liverpool with Souness & Dalglish… where he made all three assists in the 3:0 win, effortlessly dancing around confused scouse midfielders. It was a huge slap to the face of English football (whose clubs had just won their 5th consecutive European Cup) — seeing how little Brazilian midfielder humiliated the greatest British side of that time (and, many have argued at the time, of all-time) like it was nothing.


We’ve put two of the most fearsome targets for Zico’s inch-perfect through-balls — Elkjær & Eusébio had that unique combination of electric pace & intimidating physique that very few forwards ever possessed, which made their runs in behind so much more dangerous. And, obviously, their mobility & creativity means that Zico can use their movement to create space for himself — and he’s as likely to score from a return pass or from a rebound than he is to make an assist to one of them.

Defense is boosted by the addition of Fabio Cannavaro — unlike Diego Godin he seamlessly fits into that right centre back slot, covering for Amoros out wide just like he did for Zambrotta in the World Cup that earned him Ballon d’Or. Ruggeri occupies his preferred left inside defensive channel — between him, Roy Keane & Brehme creating the triangle of death for the opposition’s star threat, Garrincha.

In the middle of the park you have two of United’s greatest ever midfielders & captains, brutal and efficient Keano is paired with lion-hearted Captain Marvel — a perfect partnership, considering the amount of the running that this pressing set up expects them to do. Looking at them it’s hard not to notice another trend — the amount of all-time great captains and leaders is mind-blowing: Keane, Robson, Cannavaro, Scirea, Ruggeri…

Team Isotope (Elegencia)

A must watched 4-3-3 with a varied and devastating attack, robust midfield, and watertight defence. This team will give everyone worth their money to watch.

A uniquely gifted Attacking threats through the center and out wide. Uwe Seeler and/or Omar Sivori are either dropping to midfield or leading the attack. Both Garrincha and Dragan Džajić are exceptionally fast and tricky wingers, who can also be an inside forward. This makes our attack is beautifully unpredictable and a nightmare for opponent defence to guard against.

The German’s legend Uwe Seeler leads the attack, and is flanked by the fast and furious Garrincha and Dragan Dzajic. Both can play as traditional winger (including first rate delivery on crosses) but also offer significant goal threat.

Attack is supported by Omar Sivori, the Maradona of Sixties, who has proven himself as (one of) the best player in Serie A.


Patrolling the center of the park is the monstrous tandem of Der Terminator Lothar Matthäus, and French legend Marcel Desailly - two complimenting midfielders capable of magic on the ball whilst also providing drive, energy and defensive fortitude in a crucial area of the pitch.


All-time great Gk Lev Yashin is bulwarked by defensive beasts of Bobby Moore and Pietro Vierchowod, a classic stopper- ball playing combination of power, speed, and elegant. Djalma Santos, one of the GOAT RB is back to tend to his teammate Garrincha’s need. With Silvio Marzolini, greatest Argentina left-back, is guarding on the opposite side.

Subs:
H. Sanchez , J. A. Camacho, B. Grobbelaar , N. Naybet, J. Stam, V. Bessonov, O. Ardiles, E. Francescoli, O. Sivori, P. Jennings, Y. Voinov, G. Souness

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Good luck @harms @Edgar Allan Pillow @Isotope @General_Elegancia

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Those are two ridiculously awesome teams. Please dont be a spoil sport and call it a draw.

 

[harms]

It's kinda hard to comment on that. I wouldn't want to be a neutral on that vote

The only slight tactical issue that may be working in our favour — a very relative lack of playmaking from the back for Iso/General's team combined with our pressing. All of them were comfortable/good on the ball, but there aren't anyone like, say, Scirea on there. Can the Crazy man from Lokeren scratch us a victory here with his relentless running? Who knows.

And another point that I would like to mention — I really like that we have Cannavaro to face Seeler. He's one of the few defenders who not only can match Seeler in the air but he's also very close to him in terms of his build & athleticism, especially in terms of the low centre of gravity. It's hard to find a better opponent for him aside from Baresi.

 

[General_Elegancia]

I will start with our team strengths

Uwe Seeler vs Gaetano Scirea-Gaetano was one of the greatest defenders ever for sure but his aerial was not his main strengths and in this match he will duel against one of the greatest headers of all time-Uwe Seeler.That's one section detail that Seeler could cause him trouble from goat crossing winger like Dzajic and Garrincha is a great crosser in his own too.


We are superior in wide areas:Garrincha and Dzajic are two of the greatest wingers that this planet ever seen and in this match I'm sure they will face a lot of attacking fullbacks like Amoros and Brehme,both of them strengths were in attacking phase like overlapping runs,crossing and linking with attackers not marking and defending,although both of them were not slouch in defense for sure.

Our defenders are solid:Vierchowod one of the greatest stoppers in the game who made Maradona,Gullit,Van Basten and Batistuta in the trouble pair with a composed central defender, who was best known for his reading of the game and ability to anticipate opposition movements-Bobby Moore,they can build a solid pair for sure.

• "My captain, my leader, my right-hand man. He was the spirit and the heartbeat of the team. A cool, calculating footballer I could trust with my life. He was the supreme professional, the best I ever worked with. Without him England would never have won the World Cup." Alf Ramsey
• "He was my friend as well as the greatest defender I ever played against. The world has lost one of its greatest football players and an honourable gentleman." Pelé
• "Bobby Moore was a real gentleman and a true friend." Franz Beckenbauer
• "Moore was the best defender I have ever seen." Sir Alex Ferguson
• "Bobby Moore was the best defender in the history of the game" Franz Beckenbauer
• "There should be a law against him. He knows what's happening 20 minutes before everyone else." Jock Stein
• "Ask me to talk about Bobby Moore the footballer and I will talk for days. Ask me about the man and I will dry up in a minute." Ron Greenwood
• "Immaculate footballer. Imperial defender. Immortal hero of 1966. First Englishman to raise the World Cup aloft. Favourite son of London's East End. Finest legend of West Ham United. National Treasure. Master of Wembley. Lord of the game. Captain extraordinary. Gentleman of all time." Inscription on the pedestal of the statue at Wembley Stadium.

And if the defensive line is breached, the opposition will face Lev Yashin - who's the greatest keepers ever .

 

[Isotope]

It's kinda hard to comment on that. I wouldn't want to be a neutral on that vote

The only slight tactical issue that may be working in our favour — a very relative lack of playmaking from the back for Iso/General's team combined with our pressing. All of them were comfortable/good on the ball, but there aren't anyone like, say, Scirea on there. Can the Crazy man from Lokeren scratch us a victory here with his relentless running? Who knows.

And another point that I would like to mention — I really like that we have Cannavaro to face Seeler. He's one of the few defenders who not only can match Seeler in the air but he's also very close to him in terms of his build & athleticism, especially in terms of the low centre of gravity. It's hard to find a better opponent for him aside from Baresi.

We have Bobby Moore, famous from his passing from the back. And Matthaus is capable of distributing from the back also.

 

[harms]

Uwe Seeler vs Gaetano Scirea-Gaetano was one of the greatest defenders ever for sure but his aerial was not his main strengths and in this match he will duel against one of the greatest headers of all time-Uwe Seeler.That's one section detail that Seeler could cause him trouble from goat crossing winger like Dzajic and Garrincha is a great crosser in his own too.

Scirea isn't the one responsible for Seeler. We have 2 all-time great headers of the ball for that as well as Dasayev.

 

[Isotope]

Anway, harms/EAP has as good as 5-3-2 ever. Although i'd like to see one of the CM as the "servant" to others, ala Souness or Davids, but that's just my preference.

 

[General_Elegancia]

It's kinda hard to comment on that. I wouldn't want to be a neutral on that vote

The only slight tactical issue that may be working in our favour — a very relative lack of playmaking from the back for Iso/General's team combined with our pressing. All of them were comfortable/good on the ball, but there aren't anyone like, say, Scirea on there. Can the Crazy man from Lokeren scratch us a victory here with his relentless running? Who knows.

And another point that I would like to mention — I really like that we have Cannavaro to face Seeler. He's one of the few defenders who not only can match Seeler in the air but he's also very close to him in terms of his build & athleticism, especially in terms of the low centre of gravity. It's hard to find a better opponent for him aside from Baresi.

Hmmm....I will share some interesting informations.
key pass during World Cup -some of greatest sweppers

Daniel Passarella 78-9 key passes and 2assists
Ruud Krol 78-8 key passes and 2assists
***My Bobby 66-13 key passes and 2assists
Mr.Franz Beckenbauer 74-9 key passes and 1assist
Franco Baresi 90(not a libero imho)-5 keypasses
Beckenbauer66(midfielder)-9 keypasses
*Gaetano Scirea82 has less key passes than Bobby Moore*.
*Bobby Moore number of keypasses is highest numbers that come from center-backs*

Bobby Moore had more keypasses in 66 than -Socreates 82(11 keypasses)
Falcao(who roled Franz as his idol)82-8 keypasses
Rivelino 74-10 keypasses
same number as Rivaldo02 who was a playmaker in Brazil02

Key passes and assists aren't everything-sure
But It can tell something,mate

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-london-36889255

@Isotope

 

[General_Elegancia]

Mr.Cannavaro.....
If I rate him,I rate him as a good header for sure but not great enough to be one of the very best.He was inferior to Passarella in this department for sure.
He was beaten by Salas heading goal in the World Cup 98
He made a mistake in the Euro2000 draw goal(heading).

vs Salas who is 174cm
his mistake at Euro 2000 is one of the part in this clip

Pes stats is not 100 percents correct but it can be some good references
Cannavaro jump96
heading 83

Passarella jump 95
header 92

Seeler jump 99
header 98

Salas jump 93
header 91

Heading ability is not only about what centimeters you can jump from the ground,It's about the skills and other attributes too.
Anyway Cannavaro is a good header.

 

[Isotope]

Speaking of passing from the back, a little has been made about Djalma Santos. On WC games i've watched him, he liked to some sort of playmaking. And this article enforced my opinion:

During the era in which Djalma played full-backs were expected to be very static, hardly making it past the halfway line. Djalma Santos took advantage of his grounding as a box to box midfielder and combined physical strength with technical adeptness to become a pioneer alongside his compatriot Nilton Santos in establishing the idea of a swash-buckling attacking full back. It is important to remember that by modern standards, both of these players were still too defensive for the likes of Guardiola or Klopp from a tactical perspective but for their era they were certainly ahead of their time and Djalma's technical skills in particular stand the test of time.

After being re-positioned to right-back Djalma quickly became renowned for his clever passing out from the back and thrilled the crowd with his composed ball-carrying even in tight situations inside his own area. Even his throw-ins became a devastating weapon inspite of the long standing injury to his right hand.. His ability to catapult from range, allowed him to turn final third throw in situations into genuinely dangerous attacking set piece scenarios.

https://pythagorasinboots.com/djalma-santos-the-wall-of-brazil/

 

[Jim Beam]

Feck me, those are juggernauts. Not the biggest fan of Keane - Robson combo as I mentioned once. Not in terms that it can't work, but them being a perfect partnership like its been described.

Everything else though...

 

[General_Elegancia]

About some informations about Zico that I can find it(credit to Mr.Vegan10)
Zico against top teams during 80s.

1980 vs Soviet Union 1-2 home (friendly)
1981 vs England 1-0 away (friendly) goal
1981 vs France 3-1 away (friendly) goal, assist
1981 vs West Germany 2-1 away (friendly)
1981 vs Spain 1-0 home (friendly)
1982 vs West Germany 1-0 home (friendly)
1982 vs Soviet Union 2-1 World Cup
1982 vs Argentina 3-1 World Cup goal, assist
1982 vs Italy 2-3 World Cup assist
1986 vs France 1-1 World Cup

Zico in the 1980s played against the elite 10 games with 3 goals + 3 assists

The team scored 17 goals and his direct contribution was 35 percent of all goals.


His contribution was spread out in the following manner:
3 home games 0 goals 0 assists
3 away games 2 goals + 1 assist
4 neutral venues 1 goal + 2 assists

User @Vegan10 told some great informations about him in bigsoccer
In this department,he told about Zico’s grades and media observations against the elite sides.

Please note that not all press voices are available and if anyone has any additional information please share.

El Gráfico, Clarin, Gazzetta dello Sport, Corriere dello Sport, Guerin Sportivo, used a grading method of scores from 1 to 10.

Mundo Deportivo and France Football used the method of 1 to 6.

On the bottom of each game with grades I’ve given a final average verdict of his performances.

Zico vs the elite National teams

1980 vs Soviet Union 1-2
Folha De São Paulo — “Zico played bad, didn’t enter the box, and missed a penalty...”

Verdict: disappointing

No grades available


1981 vs England 1-0
Folha De São Paulo — “scored a beautiful goal, showed his talent and opportunism. Then, like the rest of his teammates, more concerned in defending the lead...”

Verdict: good

No grades available


1981 vs France 3-1
Folha De São Paulo reported Zico and the frontline played well and France’s manager, Michel Hidalgo, stated “Zico is fantastic”.

Cesar Menotti also praised Zico in this game.

Enough said!

Verdict: very good

No grades available


1981 vs West Germany 2-1
Folha De São Paulo — “Zico offensively did not appear with much success.”

Verdict: disappointing

No grades available


1981 vs Spain 1-0
“Impeccable man-marking job from Alonso on Zico, whom only let him touch two or three clear balls” - Mundo Deportivo

Folha De São Paulo made it clear that Brazil disappointed, including Zico and all frontline players.

Mundo Deportivo 2 mediocre

Verdict: disappointing


1982 vs West Germany 1-0
El Gráfico was critical of his performance as he was tightly marked out the game by defender Matthaus.

Folha De São Paulo also did not make any positive impressions of his game.

El Gráfico 5 mediocre

Verdict: disappointing


1982 vs Soviet Union 2-1
Folha De São Paulo — “He didn’t have too much work. He left that for Eder, Falcao and Serginho. Being the first game of both, him and Maradona will bounce back from Spain as winners”

El Gráfico 5 mediocre
France Football 5 very good
Mundo Deportivo 4 good

Verdict: decent/good


1982 vs Argentina 3-1
El Gráfico 7 good
France Football 5 very good
Mundo Deportivo 5 very good

Verdict: good/very good


1982 vs Italy 2-3
El Gráfico 6 decent
France Football 4 good
Mundo Deportivo 5 very good

Verdict: decent/good


1986 vs France 1-1
Gazzetta 6,5 decent
Corriere 6 average
El Gráfico 6 decent
Mundo Deportivo 3 average
Guerin Sportivo 6 average

Verdict: average

Summary:

10 games

4 disappointing performances
3 decent/good performances
2 very good performances
1 average performance

As previously suggested, it’s clear that Zico more often than not, struggled against the best sides, he was out of 10 matches only once a match winner, vs England in 1981. He has more disappointing matches than really good ones.

Against the more robust defensive squads, like the Soviets, Germans, Italians or the rough Spaniards, he tended to struggle. Some European managers were skeptical about how he could handle the defensive schemes of the European stoppers. Well, it is apparent that he did not bode particularly well in coping with European man-markers. Even in the late 1970s, he struggled against the British, Germans and Spaniards.

Arguably his best game against the elite arrived vs an opponent familiar with him and Brazil — Argentina. It was a South American side that was at that stage virtually eliminated from the World Cup and gave too much space at the back in pursuit for goals.

None of his best games reached absolute heights and his best games were when his team was in total control and had the upper hand.

Out of the top 4 players of the decade, it’s possible that Zico was the weakest.



I have never registered and interested to have a login bigsoccer(I have bussiness to take care ,friends,Korean Siries,sports and family to spend my time too)but last week I wanted to find about some informations this tread and article helped me a lot

Credit:Mr Vegan10
thank you Vegan,I love you

 

[General_Elegancia]

Against the more robust defensive squads, like the Soviets, Germans, Italians or the rough Spaniards, he tended to struggle. Some European managers were skeptical about how he could handle the defensive schemes of the European stoppers. Well, it is apparent that he did not bode particularly well in coping with European man-markers. Even in the late 1970s, he struggled against the British, Germans and Spaniards.

In this game,he will face Vierchowod,Moore,Djalma,Desailly,Mazzolini and Matthaus who locked down Zico in 1981 friendly match.....
And don't forget to mention the greatest goalkeeper ever:Lev Yashin.....

I'm sure that our backline are stronger than Soviets,Germans,Italians or the rough Spaniards for sure.
He will face the toughest job in his life.

Arguably his best game against the elite arrived vs an opponent familiar with him and Brazil — Argentina. It was a South American side that was at that stage virtually eliminated from the World Cup and gave too much space at the back in pursuit for goals.

Desailly and Matthaus wouldn't give him an easy space for sure.

he did not bode particularly well in coping with European man-markers

Vierchowod,Desailly,Matthaus.......No word to describe

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Quality and a breathe of fresh air about your posts @General_Elegancia

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Zico against top teams during 80s.

1982 vs Soviet Union 2-1 World Cup
1982 vs Argentina 3-1 World Cup goal, assist
1982 vs Italy 2-3 World Cup assist
1986 vs France 1-1 World Cup

corrected, good research though and an interesting perspective on Zico. Looking forward to a harms respond.

 

[harms]

Hmmm....I will share some interesting informations.
key pass during World Cup -some of greatest sweppers

Daniel Passarella 78-9 key passes and 2assists
Ruud Krol 78-8 key passes and 2assists
***My Bobby 66-13 key passes and 2assists
Mr.Franz Beckenbauer 74-9 key passes and 1assist
Franco Baresi 90(not a libero imho)-5 keypasses
Beckenbauer66(midfielder)-9 keypasses
*Gaetano Scirea82 has less key passes than Bobby Moore*.
*Bobby Moore number of keypasses is highest numbers that come from center-backs*

Bobby Moore had more keypasses in 66 than -Socreates 82(11 keypasses)
Falcao(who roled Franz as his idol)82-8 keypasses
Rivelino 74-10 keypasses
same number as Rivaldo02 who was a playmaker in Brazil02

Key passes and assists aren't everything-sure
But It can tell something,mate

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-london-36889255

@Isotope

If you'll make a heat map for Moore for that final you'd be surprised to know that he isn't playing as a left back. He's clearly not getting this freedom for you starting on the right side of a partnership, so it's more of a 1970' Moore than 1966' Moore. And believe me, I know, I've just made his compilations for every game of '66 & 70 World Cups, '68 Euros as well as a half a dozen others. If you want a playmaking version of Moore, you have to set up your team differently.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

This is tough. Hard to say anything bad about Iso/GE.

I believe (not purely because I'm his AM) that our team just has that extra bit of flair in players who can elevate their game against top opposition and provide that extra edge. Plus a wider array of creative threats from all over the pitch.

 

[harms]

About some informations about Zico that I can find it(credit to Mr.Vegan10)
Zico against top teams during 80s.

1980 vs Soviet Union 1-2 home (friendly)
1981 vs England 1-0 away (friendly) goal
1981 vs France 3-1 away (friendly) goal, assist
1981 vs West Germany 2-1 away (friendly)
1981 vs Spain 1-0 home (friendly)
1982 vs West Germany 1-0 home (friendly)
1982 vs Soviet Union 2-1 World Cup
1982 vs Argentina 3-1 World Cup goal, assist
1982 vs Italy 2-3 World Cup assist
1986 vs France 1-1 World Cup

No offense but that's a poorly done research if anything. A pretty random set of games that includes 6 friendlies & one game with Zico already past his best coming on as a substitution on the 77th minute.

Here's a couple of actual finals — I swear I didn't cherry pick them, I'm sure that he's had finals where he didn't score or at least made 3 assists:

Zico vs Cobreloa. Copa Libertadores Final 1981 (2 legs & an additional play-off game)
1st leg — 2 goals (Flamengo wins 2:1)
2nd leg — nothing (Cobreloa wins 1:0)
Play-off — 2 goals (Flamengo wins 2:0, guess who is chosen as MotM)

Zico vs Liverpool. Intercontinental Cup Final 1981 — 3 assists (video in the OP)

Zico vs Grêmio - Final Campeonato Brasileiro 1982 — 1 goal

Zico vs Atletico Mineiro. Final Campeonato Brasileiro 1980 — 1 goal & 1 assist

Zico vs Santos. Final Campeonato Brasileiro Final 1983 — 1 goal & 1 assist (should've had a penalty as well)

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Here's a couple of actual finals — I swear I didn't cherry pick them, I'm sure that he's had finals where he didn't score or at least made 3 assists:

I guess his contention was with Zico's record against European teams while all except one of the listed games is against SA teams. That Pool game of course is legendary

 

[harms]

Goal and assist in a Copa America match against Passarella's Argentina in 1979 (with young Maradona also playing).

 

[harms]

I guess his contention was with Zico's record against European teams while all except one of the listed games is against SA teams. That Pool game of course is legendary

The issue is — it's a bunch of friendlies. And in the 4 games that are left he had scored a goal, made 2 assists, had a relatively quiet game against Soviet Union where Brazil quickly adjusted and used him as a decoy... and a game against France where a half fit old-ish Zico came on the pitch at the '77 minute... helping his team to win a penalty (only to mess it up though).

1982 vs Soviet Union 2-1 World Cup
1982 vs Argentina 3-1 World Cup goal, assist
1982 vs Italy 2-3 World Cup assist
1986 vs France 1-1 World Cup

Zico is actually one of the most consistently brilliant players that I've seen regardless of the opposition. His performance against Italy is one of the most impressive performances that I've seen, considering that he's had arguably the greatest man-marker of all-time doing giving him a Maradona treatment.

 

[harms]

Going back to Europe — Zico's goals against big guys in Serie A (I took top-6 from every season, not sure why top-6).

This is the league filled to the brim with

he did not bode particularly well in coping with European man-markers

1983/84 (Udinese is 9th):
Juve: 1 goal
Roma: 1 goal
Fiorentina: 1 goal
Inter: 1 goal
Torino: -
Milan: 2 goals

1984/85 (Udinese is 12th):
Verona
Torino
Inter: 1 goal
Sampdoria: 1 goal
Milan
Juventus: 1 goal

Spoiler

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Aye, I'm not quite convinced that Zico lacks anything in terms of big-match chops, although I've pretty much fallen in love with his playing style and am quite biased towards him. This is shaping up to be an excellent debate though.

Edging towards Harms and Edgar here but not quite decided. That's a near-impeccable 3-5-2, with my only reservation being Zico and Eusebio's aptitude for the intensive pressing tactic. GE and Iso's backline and central midfield combo is incredibly strong defensively, although the FBs won't receive much support from their respective wingers which might leave them vulnerable to overloads. The three players behind Seeler look a tad individualistic as a group to me. Fantastic players of course and all potential match-winners, but as a unit I think it would function more smoothly if one of them was replaced with a more understated playmaker who would demand less time on the ball and content themselves with advancing the play swiftly.

 

[Isotope]

Aye, I'm not quite convinced that Zico lacks anything in terms of big-match chops, although I've pretty much fallen in love with his playing style and am quite biased towards him. This is shaping up to be an excellent debate though.

Edging towards Harms and Edgar here but not quite decided. That's a near-impeccable 3-5-2, with my only reservation being Zico and Eusebio's aptitude for the intensive pressing tactic. GE and Iso's backline and central midfield combo is incredibly strong defensively, although the FBs won't receive much support from their respective wingers which might leave them vulnerable to overloads. The three players behind Seeler look a tad individualistic as a group to me. Fantastic players of course and all potential match-winners, but as a unit I think it would function more smoothly if one of them was replaced with a more understated playmaker who would demand less time on the ball and content themselves with advancing the play swiftly.

Sivori and Seeler are as selfless as you can find as top players. I think it's hard to find a GOAT player, playing in that 3 positions that is not ball hogging. They're considered GOAT because they're expected to make a difference while being a bit individualistic.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Sivori and Seeler are as selfless as you can find as top players. I think it's hard to find a GOAT player, playing in that 3 positions that is not ball hogging.

Wouldn't call Sivori selfless. Off the ball, yea. On the ball, he wasnt - like most magicians aren't.

Agree with Pat's point and it did make me reconsider my vote. Seeler there is pretty optimal though. Can't better it even with Muller.

 

[Isotope]

Wouldn't call Sivori selfless. Off the ball, yea. On the ball, he wasnt - like most magicians aren't.

Agree with Pat's point and it did make me reconsider my vote. Seeler there is pretty optimal though. Can't better it even with Muller.

Yes, it's a matter of opinion, i guess. You replace Sivori with Maradona, and Dzajic with Best; i don't think there's any issue, even though they're all ball hogging as much as the others.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Yes, it's a matter of opinion, i guess. You replace Sivori with Maradona, and Dzajic with Best; i don't think there's any issue, even though they're all ball hogging as much as the others.

Pretty sure that would be brought up as an issue as well.

Sivori is capable of playing a withdrawn role though but it takes a lot away from him as an overall package.

Still not a strong enough argument to make me change my vote, but maybe it would have another day.

 

[General_Elegancia]

If you'll make a heat map for Moore for that final you'd be surprised to know that he isn't playing as a left back. He's clearly not getting this freedom for you starting on the right side of a partnership, so it's more of a 1970' Moore than 1966' Moore. And believe me, I know, I've just made his compilations for every game of '66 & 70 World Cups, '68 Euros as well as a half a dozen others. If you want a playmaking version of Moore, you have to set up your team differently.

I know and have watched all of them too mate about Moore66 that have more freedom than Moore 70 in term of playmaking .

As you said you want a playmaking version of Moore,you have to set up your team differently……I would say yes and no,our platform doesn’t make him brightest and shiniest in playmaking…….yes you’re right
but he can’t do in playmaking anything from the right spot……no

The person that had 13keypasses in Wold Cup 66 although he had some freedom and had a bit different heat map than others could do it to any line up easily.I can imagine if Joel Matip and Rio Ferdinand both are right side cb who like to join forward from that position can do some sort of playmaking,running forward and joining the attacks….why Moore couldn’t do it and despite that Moore was the better passer than 2 and had better playmaking skills too.

Playmaking from the backline have so many different ways and it's not only run forward and join attacks like Mr.Franz did about 50 years ago.It can be set up game from the back,beating hard pressing(especially from your team) from forwards and make some great passes to others and the last one make some long passes like a lot of modern defenders can do.All of departments that I have said before,Any version of Bobby Moore can do it in any line-up for sure.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Going back to Europe — Zico's goals against big guys in Serie A (I took top-6 from every season, not sure why top-6).

This is the league filled to the brim with


1983/84 (Udinese is 9th):
Juve: 1 goal
Roma: 1 goal
Fiorentina: 1 goal
Inter: 1 goal
Torino: -
Milan: 2 goals

1984/85 (Udinese is 12th):
Verona
Torino
Inter: 1 goal
Sampdoria: 1 goal
Milan
Juventus: 1 goal

Spoiler

1983/1984 Zico almost played at number nine mate,he was not a typical 10 in that season.I wouldn’t excite about this numbers,it’s look great but as I said before,he played almost as a proper9 and his main duty in that season was to scored and scored.

A typical 10 and 9 had very different methods to marking .


Zico vs the elite and top ranked sides: 1976-1986

1976 vs Argentina 2-1 away goal ranked 13
1976 vs England 1-0 ranked 4
1976 vs Italy 4-1 goal ranked 6
1976 vs Soviet Union 2-0 home goal ranked 12
1977 vs England 0-0 home ranked 12
1977 vs West Germany 1-1 home ranked 1
1977 vs Scotland 2-0 home goal - assist ranked 4
1978 vs France 0-1 away ranked 15
1978 vs West Germany 1-0 away ranked 3
1978 vs England 1-1 away ranked 11
1978 vs Spain 0-0 World Cup ranked 10
1978 vs Argentina 0-0 World Cup away ranked 6
1978 vs Poland 3-1 World Cup ranked 7
1979 vs Argentina 2-1 home Copa America goal - assist ranked 5
1979 vs Argentina 2-2 away Copa America ranked 5
1980 vs Soviet Union 1-2 home ranked 14
1981 vs England 1-0 away goal ranked 4
1981 vs France 3-1 away goal - assist ranked 11
1981 vs West Germany 2-1 away ranked 2
1981 vs Spain 1-0 home ranked 17
1982 vs West Germany 1-0 home ranked 1
1982 vs Soviet Union 2-1 World Cup ranked 3
1982 vs Argentina 3-1 World Cup goal - assist ranked 6
1982 vs Italy 2-3 World Cup assist ranked 8
1986 vs France 1-1 World Cup ranked 1

25 games 8 goals - 5 assists
Team scored 28 goals
46 percent was his involvement

In major competitions (points at stake): 9 games 2 goals - 3 assists

Team scored 12 goals
41 percent involvement

He played really well against Italy 82,Argentina 79 and 82 but even at his best of his life at WC82 he wasn't not the best in his team in my eyetests and other reviews from a lot of press.The best player in World Cup 82 for Brazilian was Falcao,who was very shined in the match vs Argentina 82 and scored a beautiful goal passed Dino Zoff(compare to Zico he played better in match vs Argentina and Italy too).Anyway Zico played very well in both matches.

In match vs Italy you're absoulutely right he played really well in the first half but he completely disappeared too when it came to second half.

If you add Zico stats in 70s,the results gives him a better overall stastical impact.Yes becuase after 1983/1984 he suffered a lot of injuries and that affected a lot in his athleticsm too.

Some Interesting summary from presses(this part I credit Mr.Vegan10)

1976 vs Argentina 2-1 ranked 13
Jornal dos Sports - very good

(Argentina and Brazil were rebuilding and fielding new experimental players)

Brazil is ranked 4


1976 vs England 1-0 ranked 4
Brian Glanville (British journalist) - disappointing
Jornal dos Sports - disappointing
Folha de São Paulo - disappointing

(Both sides fielded mostly A teams with experienced players)

Brazil is ranked 3


1976 vs Italy 4-1 ranked 6
Jornal dos Sports - good
Brazil tv commentators - decent; bad up until his goal

(Both sides fielded mostly A teams with experienced players)

Brazil is ranked 3


1976 vs Soviet Union 2-0 ranked 12
Jornal dos Sports - grade 4/5 very good
Folha de São Paulo - very good

(USSR fielded mostly a young inexperienced side, basically an under-21 team, most of their players played few caps and never played for the NT again)

Brazil is ranked 2


1977 vs England 0-0 ranked 12
Jornal dos Sports - good
Folha de São Paulo Grade 8/10 Very Good
Daily Mirror (English) - very good
Brian Glanville (World Soccer) - talented but inconsistent through 90 minutes

(Both sides fielded A-B teams with experienced players)

Brazil is ranked 3


1977 vs West Germany 1-1 ranked 1
Jornal dos Sports 3/5 average
Folha de São Paulo 3/10 Very Bad
Helmut Shoen (German manager) - very bad

(Both sides fielded mostly A teams with experienced players)

Brazil is ranked 3


1977 vs Scotland 2-0 ranked 4
Jornal dos Sports - very good (man of the match)
Folha de São Paulo - grade 8/10 - very good

(Both sides fielded mostly A teams with experienced players — the Scots were criticized for never even attacking and not ready for settings like this one at the Maracaná stadium)

Brazil is ranked 3


1978 vs France 0-1 ranked 15
Jornal dos Sports - good
Folha de São Paulo - bad
Opinion of some high-profile managers at the game - disappointing

(Both sides fielded mostly A teams)

Brazil is ranked 3


1978 vs West Germany 1-0 ranked 3
Jornal dos Sports - very good
Folha de São Paulo - decent

(Both sides fielded mostly A teams with experienced players)

Brazil is ranked 3


1978 vs England 1-1 ranked 11
Jornal dos Sports - good
Fohla de São Paulo - good
Ron Greenwood (England’s manager) not impressed

(England fielded a mix of an A-B side but with experienced players)

Brazil is ranked 3


1978 vs Spain 0-0 ranked 10
Mundo Deportivo 2/6 mediocre
France Football 3/6 average
El Gráfico 4/10 bad
Fohla de São Paulo - bad

Brazil is ranked 3


1978 vs Argentina 0-0 ranked ranked 6
El Gráfico 5/10 - mediocre
France Football 4/6 - good

(Came on as a sub)

Brazil is ranked 1


1978 vs Poland 3-1 ranked 7
(Was subbed off due to injury)

Brazil is ranked 1


1979 vs Argentina 2-1 ranked 5
Jornal dos Sports - good
Fohla de São Paulo - decent/good
El Gráfico grade 7/10 - good

(Argentina fielded a C team with only 1 starter from WC78 and Brazil sent their B team)

Brazil is ranked 1


1979 vs Argentina 2-2 ranked 5
Jornal dos Sports - average

(Argentina fielded a B-C team with only 2 starters from WC78 and Brazil sent their A-B team; Zico was sent off)

Brazil is ranked 1


1980 vs Soviet Union 1-2 ranked 14
Folha De São Paulo - disappointing
Jornal dos Sports - disappointing

(Both sides mostly with their A team; USSR missing Blohkin — the official was from Brazil and Zico missed a penalty)

Brazil is ranked 2


1981 vs England 1-0 ranked 4
Folha De São Paulo — decent/good
Jornal dos Sports - very good

(Both sides mostly with their A team; England missing Keegan and Francis; Brazil missing Falcao)

Brazil is ranked 2


1981 vs France 3-1 ranked 11
Folha De São Paulo - good
Cesar Menotti - good
Michel Hidalgo - great
Jornal dos Sports - very good

(France with an A-B side, missing Platini and Giresse; Brazil missing Falcao)

Brazil is ranked 2


1981 vs West Germany 2-1 ranked 2
Folha De São Paulo — disappointing
Jornal dos Sports - good

(Both sides with their A team; Brazil missing Falcao)

Brazil is ranked 1


1981 vs Spain 1-0 ranked 17
Folha De São Paulo - disappointing
Mundo Deportivo 2/6 mediocre
Jornal dos Sports - disappointing

(Both sides with their A team; Brazil missing Falcao)

Brazil is ranked 1


1982 vs West Germany 1-0 ranked 1
Folha De São Paulo - disappointing
El Gráfico 5/10 mediocre
Jornal dos Sports - mediocre

(Both sides with mostly their A team; Brazil missing Socrates and Falcao; Germany missing Rummenigge)

Brazil is ranked 1


1982 vs Soviet Union 2-1 ranked 3
Folha De São Paulo - decent
El Gráfico 5/10 mediocre
France Football 5/10 very good
Mundo Deportivo 4/6 good
France Football 5/6 very good

Brazil is ranked 1


1982 vs Argentina 3-1 ranked 6
El Gráfico 7/10 - good
France Football 5/6 - very good
Mundo Deportivo 5/6 - very good

(Argentina are missing Gallego and no longer control their destiny after their defeat to Italy)

Brazil is ranked 1


1982 vs Italy 2-3 ranked 8
Folha De São Paulo - decent
El Gráfico 6/10 - decent
France Football 4/6 - good
Mundo Deportivo 5/6 - very good

Brazil is ranked 1


1986 vs France 1-1 ranked 1
Gazzetta 6,5/10 - decent
Corriere 6/10 - average
El Gráfico 6/10 - decent
Mundo Deportivo 3/6 - average
Guerin Sportivo 6/10 - average

Brazil is ranked 2

So what were Zico’s best games vs the elite and top ranked teams ?

Well, the general consensus is that he played well vs Argentina 1976, USSR 1976, vs England 1977, vs Scotland 1977, vs England 1978, vs Argentina 1979, vs France 1981, vs England 1981 and vs Argentina 1982.

That’s 9 games out of 25.

But here’s the thing:

Argentina 1976 was rebuilding and experimenting with a new manager and new players.

USSR 1976 sent an improvised side with lots of youngsters, virtually an under-21 squad, and most of their players rarely ever played for the NT again. It was not a real Soviet team.

England 1977 and England 1978 were missing players and fielded a mixed bag.

Argentina 1979 sent a C team with only 1 starter from WC78.

France and England in 1981 were missing their major stars, no Keegan or Francis and no Platini and Giresse.

So we are left with Scotland 1977 and Argentina 1982 as the only legitimately complete, almost intact A teams.

It’s only logical to accept the fact that under these circumstances these were his most meritorious best performances based on that fact alone.

At the end of the day, his most important and best display was vs Argentina at the 1982 World Cup, when other Brazilian players were also well rated, especially Falcao, designated by more than one source as the man of the match. We also know that Argentina were halfway eliminated prior to kickoff and their destiny no longer were in their hands.

Ultimately Zico never did have a truly great signature performance vs the top sides, and all things considered, Brazil being usually the favorites and top ranked team with Germany, but never making a major final, it’s not only fitting to conclude that Zico’s NT legacy was not impressive but the ultimate conclusion is that he underachieved.

So what were Zico’s best games vs the elite and top ranked teams ?

Well, the general consensus is that he played well vs Argentina 1976, USSR 1976, vs England 1977, vs Scotland 1977, vs England 1978, vs Argentina 1979, vs France 1981, vs England 1981 and vs Argentina 1982.

That’s 9 games out of 25.

But here’s the thing:

Argentina 1976 was rebuilding and experimenting with a new manager and new players.

USSR 1976 sent an improvised side with lots of youngsters, virtually an under-21 squad, and most of their players rarely ever played for the NT again. It was not a real Soviet team.

England 1977 and England 1978 were missing players and fielded a mixed bag.

Argentina 1979 sent a C team with only 1 starter from WC78.

France and England in 1981 were missing their major stars, no Keegan or Francis and no Platini and Giresse.

So we are left with Scotland 1977 and Argentina 1982 as the only legitimately complete, almost intact A teams.

It’s only logical to accept the fact that under these circumstances these were his most meritorious best performances based on that fact alone.

At the end of the day, his most important and best display was vs Argentina at the 1982 World Cup, when other Brazilian players were also well rated, especially Falcao, designated by more than one source as the man of the match. We also know that Argentina were halfway eliminated prior to kickoff and their destiny no longer were in their hands.

Ultimately Zico never did have a truly great signature performance vs the top sides, and all things considered, Brazil being usually the favorites and top ranked team with Germany, but never making a major final, it’s not only fitting to conclude that Zico’s NT legacy was not impressive but the ultimate conclusion is that he underachieved.

	3	Vidalle	27
	2	Gáspari	20
	6	Maradona	18
	8	Passarella	26
	9	Van Tuyne	24
	11	Bordón	26
	13	Gaitán	21
	14	Larraquy	23
	15	Barbas	19
	18	Coscia	26
	20	Díaz	26

This was Argentina 79 squad....

He is right about Argentina 79 but I wouldn't call it Argentina C or something else like that.That's not full team sure it had a lot of new comers like Barbas,Gaiton,Maradona,No Mario Kempes,Ubaldo Fillol,Osvaldo Ardiles,Bertoni,Tarantini and Ortiz(main star and squad at 78 mundial).

Argentina 76 was rebuilt from their failure from World Cup 74,compare 74 squad and 78 squad it was almost another nation lmao(he is true).

France and England 81 that Mr.Vegan 10 from bigsoccer have said for a long time were missing their major stars,no Keegan,Francis,Platini and Girese.Although they were not full team ,they still had Tigana,Tresor,Lopez and Bossis this case is for France.Another case of arguement was England let's see in this match the backline and gk of England were similar to their squad at Euro 80 so it's ok.

Argentina 82 was an A team for sure but the bunch of veterans like Passarella,Kempes and Fillol seemed a bit past him primes and another thing Argentina 82 was so unlucky to faced two of the best team in World Cup 82 Brazil and Italy. Their preparation was too relaxed. Menotti had the opinion that it was better to do the training sessions in the afternoon-evening instead of in the morning.He did that it again at 80s Barcelona.

Kempes was starting his downfall and had lots of personal issues and injuries.

Fillol was more of a late 70s peak.

I considered Argentina 82 as the team that lacked discipline and their star players chemistry wasn't good.So it was not strange things that this team performed a bit underacheived.

So,If someone call he doesn't play really well in big game or the game that have a lot of great defenders,man markers or some great organizing defense,It's so true from a lot of evidences from press,coach,media and eyetests.And Imagine that my team has better number of defenders and defensive midfielders....what would be happen?


In fact,It can add his performance vs Italy in 82 but only in 1st half.

According by some of the greatest managers(thx Vegan10)

According to the European press voices in the 1970s, Zico is not rated that well. Europe’s managers (Shoen, Kubala, Greenwood, etc) had doubts regarding his capacity. Cesar Menotti preferred Rivelino over him. Helenio Herrera was not convinced about Zico either. There was a general consensus that the rigid European marker would always eat him alive.

What is also telling is how well Rivelino used to be rated well past his 30s. Fohla de São Paulo stated after awarding him a top note of 10 vs the Scottish in 1977, that he was the best and better now past the age 30.

About the NT qualifying, Brazil and Zico breezed through those, beating on minnows Venezuela, Colombia and Bolivia. Teams that were ranked between 60-110 in the world. They don’t qualify in this exercise.

My part and opinions

In World Cup 78 I'm sure that there was a bit mistake to took 33 years old Rivelino as a main playmaker and a number 10 of the team,IMHO I'm sure that if Zico was the main creativity or playmaker of the team,the Brazilian would be perform better for sure(but I don't really know or can't know,he maybe underperformed or maybe performed well,everyone doesn't really know.)

As I have watched him.....Zico in 78 was more athletic,faster and had better agility than 82.His 81 version included 82 World Cup slightly a bit slower than 78 but more complete player.His 80s version seemed as a better passer and had a better iq in the game.

Goal and assist in a Copa America match against Passarella's Argentina in 1979 (with young Maradona also playing).

In this match there were only one starter from WC1978 and a bunch of newcomers like 18 years old Maradona,Gaitan and Barbas.As I have said before,their main backline outside Passarella didn't participate,their main midfielders and attackers didn't come to play in this match too.

 

[Himannv]

Went with harmillow. Excellent team with quality everywhere.

 

[harms]

According by some of the greatest managers(thx Vegan10)

According to the European press voices in the 1970s, Zico is not rated that well. Europe’s managers (Shoen, Kubala, Greenwood, etc) had doubts regarding his capacity. Cesar Menotti preferred Rivelino over him. Helenio Herrera was not convinced about Zico either. There was a general consensus that the rigid European marker would always eat him alive.

Again, seeing as I'm already wary about Vegan10 opinions & research, I'd really like more concrete information with sources. A direct quote from Herrera; the basis of that general consensus (which sounds absurd considering his quite successful Serie A career playing for a poor Udinese side).

1983/1984 Zico almost played at number nine mate,he was not a typical 10 in that season.I wouldn’t excite about this numbers,it’s look great but as I said before,he played almost as a proper9 and his main duty in that season was to scored and scored.

A typical 10 and 9 had very different methods to marking .

Virdis was their number 9 in 1983/84 with Zico behind him in a 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1, Carnevale & Selvaggi played ahead of Zico in 1984/85 in a diamond-ish 4-4-2/4-3-3. And Zico was still individually man-marked by those scary European man-markers that supposedly always ate him alive in almost every game, I'm surprised that he still has all of his limbs intact!

Ultimately Zico never did have a truly great signature performance vs the top sides, and all things considered, Brazil being usually the favorites and top ranked team with Germany, but never making a major final, it’s not only fitting to conclude that Zico’s NT legacy was not impressive but the ultimate conclusion is that he underachieved.

I've already listed at least one. The conclusion that he has underachieved in his career for Brazil is a fair one for a single reason — a player of his talent should have a World Cup to his name. But as for his individual performances — that's where our assessments vary drastically.

It's worth noting that they were robbed blind in 1978 (Referee disallowing Zico's goal against Sweden because "the time was up" and Argentina coincidentally winning with the exact score that they needed to...) & they were the best team in the competition in 1982 with Zico performing well in the infamous Italy game & getting one of the highest individual ratings by any player for the tournament by France Football (although for me the eye test was enough).

 

[General_Elegancia]

Virdis was their number 9 in 1983/84 with Zico behind him in a 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1, Carnevale & Selvaggi played ahead of Zico in 1984/85 in a diamond-ish 4-4-2/4-3-3. And Zico was still individually man-marked by those scary European man-markers that supposedly always ate him alive in almost every game, I'm surprised that he still has all of his limbs intact!

Not only in Udinese ,In Brazil he got some rough treatments too.
In Udinese,I don't have anything to debate with you,I have the same opinion with you that he played so superbly.
Zico did actually say I'm not sure but it's like "Sirie A df never leave him alone" he was marking all the game.
He complained European defences were tighter and the scenerios harser with more physically demanding.

But...Even in his Brazilian days he had used anabolic steroids and some weight lifting to improve his physicallity(that's common for that time).

His real peak I think was during (1978-1982),he had played really well during(1972-1976) too but at this time he was clearly inferior to Cryuff,Kaiser....

According to sources that I have kept in my computer for a long time,He had 6.77 scoring points from Gazzetta Dello which rated Platini the best at 6.84
His Udinese at 1983/1984 scored 47goals compared to Zico's goal contribution 19goals and 3 assists that can calculate in 46.80 percents,that's impressive
and even more impressive that 42 goals of Udinese came from 24 matches that Zico only played,so If we calculate again,that would be 52.38 percents,you can call this super performance.

But...the real things that we can debate is in 1983/1984 he was more of a forward types not a pure number 10 (IMHO A lot of times or even his younger days he was more of playmaking forward like young Maradona but he still a pure number 10)
In the first half of that season I'm sure he played at forward behind 1 striker a lot or even during the game as I have said to you he was more of a number 9(that case was similar to Platini at Euro84)but still played at 10 in a lot too and when he was on the top Edinho and Causio or even Virdis drop deep sometimes would provides some great services to him.In the second half on that season he played more at 10,right.

I would still classify him in this season1983/1984 as forward since Udinese need a lot of goalscoring prowess from him(another reason was Udinese had a lot of natural cm like Miano,De Agostini,Maoro and Marchetti).

In 1984/1985(first Diego season) he played at a pure number 10 for sure due to a lot of injuries,physicallity and still improved a lot Udinese too.

Zico first season was amongst the highest scoring of Gazzetta with Krol,Falcao,Maradona,Gullit and Platini.

overall ratings

​ 83/84 CLUB-PLAYER---ROLE--COUNTRY--GAMES--AVG Juventus--Michel PLATINI--Midfielder--France----28---6.84 Udinese------ZICO------Midfielder-----Brazil-----24----6.77 84/85 CLUB-----PLAYER-----ROLE-----COUNTRY-----GAMES-----AVG. Juventus---Michel PLATINI---Midfielder---France----30---6.49 Napoli---Diego MARADONA---Midfielder---Argentine---30---7.0 (highest ratings) 85/86 Juventus---Michel PLATINI---Midfielder---France----30----6.49 Napoli----Diego MARADONA---Midfielder---Argentine---29---6.58 86/87 Juventus---Michel PLATINI---Midfielder---France----17----6.07 Napoli---Diego MARADONA---Midfielder---Argentine---17---6.683/8

Cristiano Ronaldo first season was 6.67

 

[Gio]

Enjoying the debate. Granted the best Brazilians are separated by fine margins that mostly boil down to World Cup performances, I don't fully agree with the Zico big-game criticism. It's hard to hold him to account for feck-ups elsewhere on the park in 1982 or elsewhere in 1978. I think the Flamengo team was more balanced back to front and with that platform they and Zico dominated the world club game. Like Pat there may be some personal bias there though.

Both teams are ridiculous though and reckon Harms/Edgar have a slight edge in quality. Irrespective of Zico's big-match cojones, what I would say is that a Matthaus/Desailly defensive axis is as robust as it gets. With Garrincha and Dzajic's ability 1v1, it's an awkward tactical match and the whole package is almost kryptonite for the harms 352.

 

[Isotope]

Enjoying the debate. Granted the best Brazilians are separated by fine margins that mostly boil down to World Cup performances, I don't fully agree with the Zico big-game criticism. It's hard to hold him to account for feck-ups elsewhere on the park in 1982 or elsewhere in 1978. I think the Flamengo team was more balanced back to front and with that platform they and Zico dominated the world club game. Like Pat there may be some personal bias there though.

Both teams are ridiculous though and reckon Harms/Edgar have a slight edge in quality. Irrespective of Zico's big-match cojones, what I would say is that a Matthaus/Desailly defensive axis is as robust as it gets. With Garrincha and Dzajic's ability 1v1, it's an awkward tactical match and the whole package is almost kryptonite for the harms 352.

Thanks, man. I've always thought that offence is the best term of defence. With Bobby Moore and Matthaus pinging long passes to those GOAT wingers, it's limiting their fullbacks ability to go forward and providing width. Keano and Robbo (not a good combo itself, with Zico in there) will need to stay back, if they want their fullbacks to go forward. Thus limiting their impact on midfield.

But i can see why people think otherwise, as harms/EAP has a lovely lovely team, full of excellent players.
I'm thinking of the general game itself. Those GOAT wingers will skin any defence, if they're not properly marked. Sivori can double up with Dzajic on the left, and Seeler's run on the right is giving space to Garrincha.

Seeler attacking the right side.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Thanks, man. I've always thought that offence is the best term of defence. With Bobby Moore and Matthaus pinging long passes to those GOAT wingers, it's limiting their fullbacks ability to go forward and providing width. Keano and Robbo (not a good combo itself, with Zico in there) will need to stay back, if they want their fullbacks to go forward. Thus limiting their impact on midfield.

But i can see why people think otherwise, as harms/EAP has a lovely lovely team, full of excellent players.
I'm thinking of the general game itself. Those GOAT wingers will skin any defence, if they're not properly marked.

Amorous and Brehme both of them biggest strength were offense and I’m sure that even they have Cannavaro and Ruggeri cover him,they wouldn’t focus on offense as much as they do for sure.Garrincha and Dzajic in top days can burn any fullbacks in the history .

And our defense is good enough to handle Ekjaer and Eusebio,since both of them are type of attackers that really want a bit of space to use their strengths in maximum level.My midfields with help in limit the space for both of them too.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

GG @Isotope and having @General_Elegancia as opponent certainly is a interesting proposition

 

[Jim Beam]

A final worthy game.

 

[harms]

Thanks, man. I've always thought that offence is the best term of defence. With Bobby Moore and Matthaus pinging long passes to those GOAT wingers, it's limiting their fullbacks ability to go forward and providing width. Keano and Robbo (not a good combo itself, with Zico in there) will need to stay back, if they want their fullbacks to go forward. Thus limiting their impact on midfield.

But i can see why people think otherwise, as harms/EAP has a lovely lovely team, full of excellent players.
I'm thinking of the general game itself. Those GOAT wingers will skin any defence, if they're not properly marked. Sivori can double up with Dzajic on the left, and Seeler's run on the right is giving space to Garrincha.

Draft arithmetics 101

Fullbacks can't attack, midfielders have to stay back and who cares what the opposition said about their tactics (that makes this picture improbable if not impossible — albeit while opening new possibilities for your attack).

Anyway, good game. You've built a fantastic team from back to front. It would be interesting to get the response on how did people assess Sivori's impact here. When you were losing by a bigger margin I couldn't help but wonder how you would've fared with a more popular/shiny name as a number 10 but in the end it the gap had almost disappeared (and rightly so). I know that Sivori is a Ballon d'Or winner & everything but I still feel that he's a bit underrated in our community, so it's great to see him featuring at this level — hopefully his profile will continue to move on that upwards trajectory.

The only thing that I disliked was Moore positioning on the right side but that's a minuscule detail. I feel that his passing range was very specific — if we're talking about really good passes & not the general interplay around the back. He almost never done diagonal passes to another wing — if he needed to switch the play to another wing he usually curled it so it went more or less sideways (usually to a right back/winger in a deep position). His best long passes were usually straight ones forward (usually from a left back position to a left winger) or a slightly curled one towards towards one of the strikers who ran deeper to receive it. And Moore's trademark pass was, of course, a cross into the box from left midfield/left inside position — it's how he got most of his key passes in that final, including the assist — and this was certainly his biggest offensive weapon. All of those actions he was more comfortable doing on the left and the potential link with Džajić looked brilliant — he loved chasing long balls sent over the top — while Garrincha preferred to get the ball early & straight to his feet.

Binge-watching Moore's games for the big compilation certainly took a toll on me

 

[harms]

Oh, and gg to you too @General_Elegancia
I don't agree with you (or, rather, with Mr.Virgin10) on Zico, but it was a pleasure nonetheless — it's not often that we have an actually new topic to discuss, usually it's the same opinions circulating back and forth.