EAP VS Onenil - NT Peak Draft

Who would win based on their NT peak?


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Annahnomoss

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Team EAP

Formation:


4-3-2-1

Strategy:

+ The team is built on a flexible front 3 with Cruyff and Messi in free roaming roles able to move to the wings stretching the defence of overwhel through the middle.



+ Due to strength in numbers in the middle, we expect to dominate possession. - The defenders will have the freedom to press up 'slightly' higher (none of the crazy Barca stuff) but with numbers in the middle, we'll utilize the opportunity to squeeze space a bit.
+ Two very competent fullbacks with stamina and talent to hold the flank on their own will support the attack. Both Masopust and Schuster are comfortable in wide-ish roles so we don't end up being too narrow and ofc, Cruyff and Messi able to operate as wing forwards makes this a very flexible and dynamic team.
.
+ Stiles will play a key part in reigning in Gullit when he drops back to create. He's a match against the physical attack of onenil. He'll have ample support from Masopust/Schuster who contribute a lot defensively.
+ Both Ruggeri and Collovati will be a match for the pace/speed of van Basten both on the ground and in the air.
.

Thoughts on opposition:

- Vieira will be hard pressed to handle the movement and interplay between by midfield and attack (Movement of Cruff, Messi and oncoming Masopust/Schuster). Onenil will be better served with a Makelele or Stiles type of player than Vieira. Role is not to Vieira's strengths.
- There'll be overlap between Breitner and van Hanegem. Breitner is apt to cut infield into exactly the same space where van Hanegem plays his game. They're better off with a overlapping FB or a midfield 2, giving Breitner space to play his game.

Players:

Dino Zoff - The Monument
GOAT. His greatest achievement was in 1982 world cup where he was captained his team kept clean sheets and made crucial saves leading their team to victory. Chosen as GoalKeeper of the Tournament and made the Team of the Tournament.​
.
Hans Peter Briegel - The steamroller from Palatinate.
A veritable machine who excelled in athletics before moving on to football. A physical player with excellent technical skills and ability to score goals. Able to turn up in the box at the right time to score crucial goals.​
Oscar Ruggeri - The Big-Headed One
Lord of the skies, ruler of arial balls. . One of the most successful defender from Argentina, he was a crucial part of the 1986 world cup winning team.​
Fulvio Collovati
One of the best defender to come out of Italy, he was integral to their 1982 world cup victory and was chosen to the tournament all star team. A elegant, physically strong, and dynamic player, he was gifted with good technique and distribution, as well as excellent anticipation, marking ability, and aerial prowess.​
Cafu - The Express Train
One of the best RBs of all time, his stamina and ability to run up and down contributing to both ends is phenomenal. Winner of the 1994 and 2002 world cups, he's a perfect fit to own that flank.​
.
Nobby Stiles - Hardman
One of the most crucial players in the world cup winning squad, he provided the steel and balance to that midfield freeing up Bobby Charlton to shine. Given that Alf Ramsey threatened to resign if he could not pick Stiles, his importance cannot be underrated. A destroyer par excellence, he took Eusebio out of the game enabling England to win.​
Josef Masopust - Greatest Czech player ever
A workhorse of a left half, excellent in recovery and brilliant in attack with his slalom runs. Good dribbler and passer with box to box abilities to contribute at both ends. Named as "European Footballer of the Year" for his performance in the 1962 WC.​
Bernd Schuster - Blond Angel
One of the best players of Euro 1980 patrolling the midfield starting waves of attack. Brilliant range of passing and workrate to shuttle box to box. His performances in 1980 earned him a 2nd place in that year's Balon d'Or.​
.
Johann Cruyff - Pythagoras in boots
1974 WC - Player of the Tournament. Master of space and time. Speed, awareness, creativity...he was brilliant. Free roaming through the middle or out wide in the wings, he'll be hard to defend against.​
Lionel Messi - The Atomic Flea
Cruyff's counterpart on the right. Playing a Right IF/AM hybrid, he was one of the best players in Copa America 2015 & 2016. Admit he's not quite the best in world player of Club standards, but still is a dangerous player with his movement and technique.​
Uwe Seeler - Our Uwe
One of the greatest players in German football history, he was chosen to the all star team for his performances in 1966 world cup. A very unselfish and influential player he'll be the perfect foil for Cruyff and Messi behind him making for a potent front 3.​

-----------------Edgar Allan Pillow---------------------------------Onenil


Team Onenil

I decided on this theme spur of the moment; the only goal was not focusing on South American players. The basis obviously the Dutch 1988 Euro Champion side which was one that stuck out in my memory. For me, in 1988 the Dutch were the best side in the world. Argentina didn’t even make the final of the Copa the prior year and the Dutch beat their German footballing nemesis and the Soviet Union who were ranked 1 and 2 in the world at the time. I’ve complemented the key players with a host of players that I enjoyed watching and complement the combination of traits.


Marco van Basten put in an epic performance in 1988 as the epitome of the classic no.9. Incredible close control in the box, clinical goal scoring and intelligent subtle movement. Gullit ran the show. He was everywhere in ‘88 dropping back into the midfield battle, always working when the opponent had the ball, causing nightmares for all the opposing defenses.


Laudrup offers the powerful all around performances from 1998. He was superb at creating, opening up and using space. Overmars is set to stretch play on the other flank, attacking with his dangerous ‘98 form before he got injured. The full backs complement the wide options. Breitner offers his unique skills and disposition while Gerets gives Laudrup the overlapping fullback option without sacrificing his solid defensive skills.


Vieira and van Hanegem combine to form the platform for overall success. Vieira the more mobile box to box player while van Hanegem offering the positional sound role he provided in being named to the 1974 WC all star selection.


Krol and Rijkaard form a resilient combination. Rijkaard was a dominant stopper in ‘88 while a decade earlier Krol represented the epitome of a total footballing sweeper.


Van Basten (Euro’88)

Rijakaard (Euro’88)

Gullit (Euro’88)

Breitner (WC ’74)

Krol (WC’78)

Van Hanegem (WC ‘74)

Laudrup (WC ‘98)

Overmars (WC ‘98)

Gerets (WC ‘86)

Vieira (WC ‘06)

Seaman (Euro ‘96)


1988 Holland

While this side is well known among draft regulars, I found with my friends who are more casual fans or newer/younger fans some of these names are much less remembered. Marco van Basten was one who seems to get most forgotten now by younger fans.


This Dutch side, the only one to win a major tournament, donates its three epic leaders to my cause this draft. The Dutch dominated their qualifying group scoring 15 goals with only 1 against and going unbeaten. However they entered the actual tournament with some very stiff competition.


Holland ‘88 Euro group opponents included the number #1-2 ELO ranked selection in the world in the Soviet Union, England who was ranked #4 and Ireland who was ranked #11. While these rankings are never perfect, they give a good indication that Holland was in a very tough group. Still to get into a rhythm the Dutch lost their opening match against the Soviets where van Basten was only subbed on to play 30 minutes. But after that they never looked back. Against England, van Basten put in an iconic performance.



Holland-3 England-1

This era of England (88-90) was arguably the best English selections since ‘66. They had a hard defense and a host of players who could hurt any defense. To me this match was run by Gullit and Rijkaard. Conducting a master class in the stopper role I felt Rijkaard was dominant in defense breaking up England’s tempo frequently. Gullit was all over the pitch, running at the defense, helping out in the midfield battle and continually offering a dangerous presence. This lead to the van Basten show this match. In his prime and displaying his full range of skills, van Basten was everything you could imagine from a striker.. From incredible close control in the box to clinical finish to intelligent and dangerous movement all match against the centre backs van Basten showed why he many call him the best classic no.9.


Holland-1 Ireland-0

This is another match that Gullit just impresses me. This whole tournament Gullit was everywhere at once it seems. Gullit marries tactical roaming with strength, speed and stamina. Here is a description of one of Gullit’s moves this match, “He defied the laws of geometry’ says John Motson, after the AC Milan man gets a lovely cross in, despite being pegged into the corner by Moran and the hard-working Tony Galvin. The Dutch are ‘fluent and deadly’ says Jimmy Greaves through his moustache.”


Holland-2 West Germany-1

Holland’s eternal nemesis. The Germans fluctuated between ELO rank 1 and 2 in the world at this time. The future winners of WC 1990 and a mental block for Holland to overcome. This was a huge match in Holland’s history.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow

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van Hanegem on the right? His best position was Left CM imo. Both Vieira and van hanegem play better with a DM behind them to bring out their complete box-to-box game. Nothing wrong with this set up, but this will not bring out the best in both the players and as a combi, it is sub-optimal imo. This is a crucial weakness as my team's strength lies through the centre. With both Cruyff and Messi capable of breaking off wide with Masopust/Schuster ready to move in, it'll prove to be too much to handle for Onenil's defensive duo. And add in Breitner who offers something very similar to Vieira and van Hanegem. They are similar players and not complimentary to each other at all. The whole is not greater than the sum of it's parts.

Stiles as the destroyer DM will be a match for Gullit both tactically and physically.
The box-to-box defensive workrate of both Masopust and Schuster will help a great deal out when facing off against Laudrup and Overmars.
Ruggeri/Collovati will be more than a match for van Basten both in the ground and on the air.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Wow @Edgar Allan Pillow .. That midfield three, it's like you have an extra man.
Yup. Think it has worked out well. If you have time to kill, here's some clips from harms.

If you have nothing else to do, here's a 30 minute compilation of Masopust's actions in 1962 World Cup

Someone actually made a compilation of his final performance, which would've been useful to know beforehand, but here it is, if you don't have time or patience to watch the full version, here is his outstanding performance against reigning champions in the final (and his dedication to limit Garrincha's influence is remarkable, albeit hopeless).

Schuster's Euro 1980 games (many already saw them, but still well worth a watch)
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Good luck @Edgar Allan Pillow

I notice you did not specifiy whuch exact tournament versions you are using for some of your players. Kind of relevant to do that and specify which tournament
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Also van Hanegem played with Neeskens in 74 so not a makelele type at all.

Also based on Annah explicit tournament rules see OP you only get Schuster at 50% of his ability since he didnt play in half the matches.
 

Raees

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Also van Hanegem played with Neeskens in 74 so not a makelele type at all.

Also based on Annah explicit tournament rules see OP you only get Schuster at 50% of his ability since he didnt play in half the matches.
Hey mate, mind expanding on this point.. I wasn't aware of Schuster not featuring in half the games?
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Oh and 5'6 nobby stiles has neither the size, strength nor speed to be a good match for 6'3 Gullit
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I notice you did not specifiy whuch exact tournament versions you are using for some of your players. Kind of relevant to do that and specify which tournament
It's there in the formation sheet itself. Which player are you referring to?

Also van Hanegem played with Neeskens in 74 so not a makelele type at all.

Also based on Annah explicit tournament rules see OP you only get Schuster at 50% of his ability since he didnt play in half the matches.
Both van Hanegem and Neeskens had Jansen doing the dirty work behind them...exactly the way they should be used. Lack of a DM behind them will not let you get the best out of Vieira and WvH.

As to Schuster, he made Team of the Tournament in 1980 and was one of its best players. See not reason to not consider that as his peak.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Hey mate, mind expanding on this point.. I wasn't aware of Schuster not featuring in half the games?

He only played against Belgium and Netherlands
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/bernds-intl.html

As Annah mentions right at the start of first post where he talks about Pele not playing in 3 games in 58 so selecting Pele for 58 is automatically only selecting him at half strength. If we go by those rules Schuster has to be rated at only half his ability or else Annah rule is meaningless
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Hey mate, mind expanding on this point.. I wasn't aware of Schuster not featuring in half the games?
Special case to Schuster. He was one of the best players in Euro 1980 and was part of the Team of the Tournament. His credentials were discussed in Euro draft before. Here is Joga's write up on him...

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-second-redcafe-sheep-draft.399759/page-101#post-17063934

What's the abiding memory of the 1980 Euro Championships in Italy? England limping out? The tear gas? The low crowds? No. They were all rubbish. What really stood out was Bernd Schuster. What a player - it wasn't just the mop of blond hair that made him stand head and shoulders above the rest, it was the way he patrolled the midfield, starting off attack after attack with his classy range of passing.

A true midfield general, the talismanic German should be regarded as a rival to Zico, Platini, Boniek and Maradona for the tag of best footballer of the 80's.
Oh and 5'6 nobby stiles has neither the size, strength nor speed to be a good match for 6'3 Gullit
Meh, he was brilliant against Eusebio who was also taller, stronger and faster than him. He's a midfield dynamo. A bulldog who'll not leave his marker always nipping at his heels, never letting them have freedom to run the game. Though he's not on a man marking role here, whenever Gullit drop's back deeper, Stiles will be covering him. It's not like he'll be jumping for aerial balls in midfield.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Ah my bad well Messi 2016 before you quote stats you have to take his weak level of competition into account, which is very different level of opposition than Holland 88 which , based on ELO, is one of the toughest set of opponents ever faced including World Cups.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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@Edgar Allan Pillow

No the fact Schuster only played two matches is absolutely relevant based on thr exact criteria Annah set up. You cant just blatantly ignore the specific criteria of this draft because it doesnt suit your players

Annah said:
I.e Pele from '58 played just 3 games, which means in half of the games he had 0 impact. It doesn't mean you can't use that Pele if you want, but you at least then know that it will seriously affect his value here.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Oh and 5'6 nobby stiles has neither the size, strength nor speed to be a good match for 6'3 Gullit
As Paddy Crerand famously said:

«I felt sorry for Eusebio [in the 1968 final] because Nobby Stiles was marking him and not in the way you're supposed to mark people.»

If you mark people not in the way you're supposed to (which translates to kicking the shit out of 'em, of course) it doesn't really matter how strong or fast they are.

Just to make it clear, the above is a joke.

I'm more and more of the opinion that famous old-school hatchet jobs should be disregarded as evidence in these drafts. They're era specific. The players obviously wouldn't have gotten away with it in a later era. It's almost like using an example from before the offside rule was changed to prove a point about movement in the box.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow

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@Edgar Allan Pillow

No the fact Schustet only played two matches is absolutely relevant based on thr exact criteria Annah set up. You cant just blatantly ignore the specific criteria of this draft because it doesnt suit your players
How is 50% or 100% relevant, when he was chosen as one of the best players of the tournament? The end result was Schuster was at his brilliant and influential peak in that Euro. His important to the German team and overall performance in the tournament are well documented. And I fail to see why that should be taken out.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I mean it wasn't a 4 match tournament like the olden days (which was the spirit behind Annah's rule). Euro 1980 was a full fledged modern tournament and Schuster despite playing lesser matches was so much better than most others who played more matches....and it resulted in numerous accolades and ToT selection. It just serves to emphasize his influence more imo.
 

Annahnomoss

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@Edgar Allan Pillow

No the fact Schuster only played two matches is absolutely relevant based on thr exact criteria Annah set up. You cant just blatantly ignore the specific criteria of this draft because it doesnt suit your players
Like I say. I am not trying to put a figure on how much you should cut off, just that you have to be ready for the player to be underrated for it. That has been the case previously and will most likely continue to be the case.
 

Chesterlestreet

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How is 50% or 100% relevant, when he was chosen as one of the best players of the tournament? The end result was Schuster was at his brilliant and influential peak in that Euro. His important to the German team and overall performance in the tournament are well documented. And I fail to see why that should be taken out.
If Pelé '58 is to be regarded with this thing in mind, it has to apply to Schuster as well - obviously. How good he was is irrelevant.

It doesn't make full sense to me, be it said. A player's impact, and the level he played at, is usually clear enough. Whether he played two, three or six matches seems like a sheer technicality in cases like Pelé/Schuster.

But rules are rules (not sure what the rule actually is, though - it seems absurd to «count» a player as being on 50% or whatever the case may be. This is an all-time pool - not even Pelé is good enough to being picked if you only get half the player).
 

Raees

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Like I say. I am not trying to put a figure on how much you should cut off, just that you have to be ready for the player to be underrated for it. That has been the case previously and will most likely continue to be the case.
I think it should be left open to interpretation, rather than a strict rule about it. Manager's can bring it up, but leave it to the voters to decide how much emphasis will be placed on it.

Me personally, I rate Pele 58 quite highly (because it is not a one hit wonder player but the greatest of all time making himself known on the grand stage plus quality of goals was astonishing) and Schuster missing a few games, doesn't make a difference to me but obviously if Schuster 80 comes up against say a Matthaus 90 who played every game, the latter will naturally be rated higher and how many games the player played might have a telling impact on how they are rated due to more variety of opposition they come up against, more footage which can be used for them, more goals/assists/statistics in their favour.. so there is a natural advantage there already without having to put in restrictions on how they should be rated.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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How is 50% or 100% relevant, when he was chosen as one of the best players of the tournament? The end result was Schuster was at his brilliant and influential peak in that Euro. His important to the German team and overall performance in the tournament are well documented. And I fail to see why that should be taken out.
The Team of the Tournament is what is irrelevant in this case because trhe team of the tournament was not selected based on annah's criteria. Schuster only played 2/5 matches so based on this draft specific rules or criteria he is only at 40% of his maximum ffectiveness. Otherwise there is no point in international tournament draft.

Additionally strength of opponet has to he taken into account which dramatically weakens the version of Messi you are using , this is not Barca Messi at all
 

Annahnomoss

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I think it should be left open to interpretation, rather than a strict rule about it. Manager's can bring it up, but leave it to the voters to decide how much emphasis will be placed on it.

Me personally, I rate Pele 58 quite highly and Schuster missing a few games, doesn't make a difference to me but obviously if Schuster 80 comes up against say a Matthaus 90 who played every game, the latter will naturally be rated higher and how many games the player played might have a telling impact on how they are rated due to more variety of opposition they come up against, more footage which can be used for them, more goals/assists/statistics in their favour.. so there is a natural advantage there already without having to put in restrictions on how they should be rated.
Yup. My take on it too.
 

antohan

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I mean it wasn't a 4 match tournament like the olden days (which was the spirit behind Annah's rule). Euro 1980 was a full fledged modern tournament and Schuster despite playing lesser matches was so much better than most others who played more matches....and it resulted in numerous accolades and ToT selection. It just serves to emphasize his influence more imo.
It was literally a four match tournament. :lol:

Not that I care, I saw it and he was sublime.

I find the description on Briegel more intriguing as he didn't score any goals.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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This is a NT performance draft and all I'm saying is rate Schuster based on his performance in Euro 1980. How is that against the theme of this draft?
I already linked you the exact rule from point1 in Annah original. I operafed the whole draft under the assumpton this rule was menaingful. So Schuster only gets credit for influencing 2 out of 5 matches.

If you want to interpret the rule differently then thats you but i thought it was pretty clear and the fact bernd only played 2/5 has to be factored in. Otherwise i would just picked Salenko said that single game was his "NT peak" with his unmatched goal total.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I already linked you the exact rule from point1 in Annah original. I operafed the whole draft under the assumpton this rule was menaingful. So Schuster only gets credit for influencing 2 out of 5 matches.

If you want to interpret the rule differently then thats you but i thought it was pretty clear and the fact bernd only played 2/5 has to be factored in. Otherwise i would just picked Salenko said that single game was his "NT peak" with his unmatched goal total.
Not disputing the rule, but just your interpretation.

If a player played 4 of 5 matches, then we take 80% of the player? If a player has 4 of 4 appearances and faces off against another who has 6 of 6 appearances, should that matter? As Chester says above, how do we define x% of a player?

There is no mathematical formula to link appearances to effectiveness. I think you are taking a too literal and statistical opinion of the rule. Potentially at the cost of ignoring the players actual performance and impact to the said tournament.

Sure, there's no rule against you no picking Salenko. If you think you can argue his case well, see no reason why not!
 

antohan

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Oi!

Back to the game. The moment I saw Seeler I was determined to vote EAP, then saw the teamsheet and was about to vote... until I saw that sexy Dutch side. Bloody hell, you guys make it way too hard.

Looks a goalfest to me.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Back to the game. The moment I saw Seeler I was determined to vote EAP, then saw the teamsheet and was about to vote... until I saw that sexy Dutch side. Bloody hell, you guys make it way too hard.
Onenil has a near perfect team. The only thing that could be improved is the balance of that midfield duo. Since van Hanegem cannot play on with with Breitner in there, Vieira would be better off partnered with another DM, a la Alonso or Zito or Deschamps etc. That imbalance gets exacerbated because that's where my team's strengths lie. The movement of Cruyff, Messi and oncoming Masopust/Seeler would overload that area and create ample opportunities for me.

Think I'm set up well to counter his team. Masopust and Schuster will provide lots of defensive cover against his wingers, Stiles vs Gullit and two very good CB's against MvB.
 

antohan

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:lol: you in a nutshell
Yeah, you can't say I'm not consistent.

I instantly made the decision: Uwe always gets underrated so I'll always vote for him regardless to make up for all the underrating.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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I should explain my tactic choice more. A makelele tyoe destroyer would have been a very poor choice. My inspiration and skeleton was obviously Holland 88. One thing was clear about Rijkaard. He was an extremely active stopper who well covered the zone a destroyer would cover. Makelele would be superfluous in this tactic and unneeded.

It became clear the best midfield to complemwnt Rijkaard and Gullit would consist of a DLP defensively solid box to box. Van Hanegem and Vieira perfectly suit these roles. The other key here is like 88 Dutch we both attack and defend as a unit. Everyone selected fits together to complement each other. The midfield is perfect upgrade on Holland 88 and any talk of uncomplomentary players is much ado nothing. I feel we are well suited as a unit to counter eap narrow formation.
 

Annahnomoss

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I should explain my tactic choice more. A makelele tyoe destroyer would have been a very poor choice. My inspiration and skeleton was obviously Holland 88. One thing was clear about Rijkaard. He was an extremely active stopper who well covered the zone a destroyer would cover. Makelele would be superfluous in this tactic and unneeded.

It became clear the best midfield to complemwnt Rijkaard and Gullit would consist of a DLP defensively solid box to box. Van Hanegem and Vieira perfectly suit these roles. The other key here is like 88 Dutch we both attack and defend as a unit. Everyone selected fits together to complement each other. The midfield is perfect upgrade on Holland 88 and any talk of uncomplomentary players is much ado nothing. I feel we are well suited as a unit to counter eap narrow formation.
While Koeman had his fantastic passing range, Rijkaard had the natural instincts of a midfielder in him and often roamed forward a bit in to sort of a defensive midfield position and even made runs forward. The combination there was quite interesting but spectacular, the opposite of a stopper/sweeper combo but that took nothing away from how good they were.
 
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Chesterlestreet

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Just a side remark, really but when @oneniltothearsenal mentions England's tough defence above, the Adams-Wright combo they sported in the middle looks better on paper than it was in reality. They were inexperienced and England suffered greatly from the absence of Butcher, who would have been a top partner for either youngster in that tournament.

Still, if the point is that Holland defeated a very good England, I'd say that's a fair assessment. England's results in '88 were horrible, but the team wasn't bad at all. They misfired and predictably fecked up against Ireland in a match that was always going to be very difficult - and then played well enough against Holland, but were up against Van Basten in all his glory. And then it was essentially over - the last defeat against USSR was just what you'd expect, a frustrated, pissed-off team that had thrown in the towel.
 
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Both very good teams... Both got some of my all time favourites in them.

Question : don't get the "rule" about how many games a player played in said tournament.... it's either a rule or its not? If it is, got to be borne in mind... if it's not, it's not.

Which is it?

Personally, don't see how EAP midfield is "like having an extra man" given ONTTA has midfield of van Hanegem, Vieira and Gullit .... pretty sure they could handle themselves and good mix of abilities between them. I get the comment about van Hanegem possibly being not suited to left side though.