EAP vs The Red Viper - Tactical Draft

Who created a better environment for their star player to shine?


  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,669
Team EAP

Style


Zona Mista

Central player



"El Príncipe" Enzo Francescoli

Basic Wiki for the Philistine's:

One of the greatest players of Uruguay, Enzo was classy and elegantly stylish elite playmaker. An elegant, creative, and technically gifted attacking midfielder, who was also capable of playing as a second striker Francescoli was noted in particular for his control, grace, fluidity, dribbling skills, and ability on the ball. A two-footed playmaker, with excellent vision and an eye for goal from midfield, he was also known for his ability from set-pieces, and also had a penchant for scoring acrobatic goals from overhead kicks.

Specific Tactical Role:

In my team Enzo is the star man, the "Fantasista" and has a free role upfront. The rest of the team is tailored to let Enzo have the centre stage. From Benarrivo to Junior of Muller to Cole, he's surrounded by creative players in a flexible set up which enhances the tactical freedom to let Enzo shine.

He can drift as a left sided striker linking up with Benarrivo/Junior when we attack down the left or cut into the middle in a playmaking role when I attack through Muller/Donadoni on the right.


Defense

Defensive Line - Normal
Marking - Zona Mista. Mix of zonal and individual man-marking systems.

Tucked in compact Central defensive trio with Montero and Gentile being the stoppers and the elegant Picchi sweeping up behind them in the role he did superbly as captain of Grande Inter. The versatility of both Montero and Gentile in operating centrally of drifting as fullbacks will ensure they are comfortable in their allotted roles.

Benarrivo as the attacking fullback is a one-man flank who can also act as makeshift wide midfielder. With tireless workrate, he'll be the offensive weapon from the backfield providing overlapping width to Junior and Enzo.

Midfield

A hardworking midfield anchored by the indomitable Nobby Stiles. A destroyer par excellence, his ability to sniff out attacks and hound dog opponents players needs no further introduction.

Leovegildo Junior provides the creativity from the defensive middle. A left back from Brazil and left Centre/Defensive Midfielder for Torino, he'll provide the creative attacking runs from the deep. With Benarrivo overlapping and Enzo ahead my left flank is as dynamic and lethal as they come. Solid, hardworking player who will provide cover a classy box-to-box presence.

Between Stiles and Junior, we'll have a strong shield to protect and aid the defensive line.

Ahead of them is Raumdeuter, Thomas Muller. A brilliant versatile player and a true trequartista, capable of orchestrating players from the middle, comfortable drifting across both flanks, he's in his prime position, a Centre/Right attacking midfielder.

To round it off, Donadoni mans the right flank. A hardworking wide midfielder with pace, stamina creativity and technical ability. He's flexible to operate through the middle when Muller drifts wide creating a dynamic duo that'll be difficult for any defence to handle.


Attack

Enzo-Cole is a complementary partnership. The younger version of Cole (Newcastle 1993-94), who rattled in 34 goals in 40 games in PL and 41 goals in 46 games overall. Cole was always good with partners, (Beardsley, Yorke etc) and here he has a stellar upgrade in Beardsley.

Enzo himself is no slouch in goal scoring department having won the top goal scorer in league twice and for having a brilliant partnership with Crespo.

Player Roles

Portiere (Goalkeeper) - Ronnie Hellstrom
Libero (Sweeper) - Armando Picchi
Difensore centrale (Centre-back) - Paolo Montero
Marcatore puro (Stopper) - Claudio Gentile
Terzino fluidificante (Wing-back) - Antonio Benarrivo
Mediano (Defensive midfielder) - Nobby Stiles
Centrocampista centrale (Central midfielder) - Leovegildo Junior
Raumdeuter (Free roaming Deep Forward) - Thomas Muller
Ala tornante (Side midfielder) - Roberto Donadoni
"Fantasista" (Seconda punta / Second striker) - Enzo Francescoli
First striker (Prima punta) - Andy Cole



Specific Tactical Manoeuvres

Benarrivo - Will be tasked with providing flanking/overlapping width.
Enzo - Free role. Will function as an attacking Left Forward when we attack down the left and drift in centrally in a more playmaking role when we attack from the right.




Team Viper


THE TEAM


Ladislao MAZURKIEWICZ:- Uruguay's greatest ever goalkeeper and arguably the best to come out from South America as well. Mazurka, while not the tallest was an outstanding goalkeeper. Excellent reflexes, had a great leap which helped him gather and deal with crosses and set-pieces. Voted as the best goalkeeper of the 1970 FIFA World Cup, Mazurka was considered the heir to Lev Yashin by the great man himself.

Gianluca ZAMBROTTA:- One of the best full-backs of modern era. A versatile full-back who was great on either flanks, Zambro was quite a complete full-back. He had a great engine and could run up and down the flank the entire game but at the same time was a very good defender as well. Did a great job of restricting the likes of Luis Figo, Roberto Carlos etc whenever he was matched up against them.

Ciro FERRARA:- One of Italy's best ever defenders, Ciro Ferrara was the defensive lynch-pin of two great Serie-A sides. First with Maradona's Napoli team which won the Scudetto and UEFA Cup, where he was the pillar of that side which laid the foundation for Maradona to do his magic in attack. Secondly with Juventus from the mid 90s to early part of the 00s, where Ciro was the leader of the defense and organized that Juventus backline.

Alessandro COSTACURTA:- The stalwart of the great Milan defense starting from under Sacchi and Capello till Ancelotti, Billy Costacurta was one of the first names on the teamsheet for AC Milan for almost 15 odd years. A great defender, very few could read the game as well as Costacurta did. His ability to sense the danger out early helped him restrict oppositions' attacks at an early stage before they could create a clear chance.

Denis IRWIN:- One of the best full-backs to have played in the Premier League era, Denis Irwin was an extremely reliable and consistent player. A very solid defender, Irwin was really good going forward as well. Possessed a fantastic work-rate, was a good passer and a great crosser of the ball. So much so, that he was United's first choice set-piece taker until Beckham came along.

CLODOALDO:- An integral part of the great 1970 FIFA World Cup winning Brazil team, Clodoaldo was an excellent defensive midfielder who had the dribbling ability that could rival many great attackers. Great on the turn, very agile and could get out of tight spaces with ease. But he was primarily known for his defensive ability, energy and combativeness, which prompted him to be called the "the new Zito".


Xabi ALONSO:- A Rolls-Royce of a midfielder. Blessed with fantastic vision and range of passing, Xabi Alonso was one of the best midfielders of the modern era. A master at controlling the tempo of the game, Xabi was defensively solid, positionally aware, had great anticipation which helped him intercept many passes but what made him special and one of the best midfielders of the modern era was his ability to initiate swift attacks from deep in your own half and switch the play from defense to attack in a matter of seconds.


Bruno CONTI:- Italy's greatest winger of all time, Bruno Conti captivated spectators around the world with his skill and technical flair. Conti was instrumental in helping Italy win the World Cup in 1982 with his outstanding performances in the knock-out stages. Was also hugely influential in AS Roma winning the Scudetto in 1983, helping to break the domestic domination by Juve and Inter Milan. Blessed with lightning pace, possessing exceptional passing and dribbling ability, Bruno Conti was undoubtedly the finest winger of the 80s.


Pierre LITTBARSKI:- “The Demon of Baviera”, Littbarski is probably the best German winger ever. Gifted with jaw-dropping close control and agility, Littbarski was a nightmare to defend against. One-on-one, it was almost impossible to stop him as he could go past players at will. Along with being one of the most gifted dribblers ever, Littbarski was an excellent playmaker as well. His passing and crossing was vital in the German team during the 1980s as he was often the spark in attack who would unlock something out of nothing and create a good chance for Die Mannschaft.


Teófilo CUBILLAS [C]:- The Kid. The man whom Pelé himself anointed as his true heir. Renowned for his technique, flair, skills, insane close-control and breathtaking free-kicks, Cubillas is one of the greatest South American players ever to have graced the game. Inspite of playing mostly as an attacking midfielder, Cubillas was a prolific goalscorer. He was the Silver Boot winner in the 1978 FIFA World Cup and is 8th in All-Time FIFA World Cup Top Scorers. A complete maestro!


José ALTAFINI:- Regarded as one of the best strikers to have graced Serie-A, Altafini was a complete striker, with rapid pace, good skills, quick feet, an eye for goal, agile, and physically strong. In addition to his pace and physical attributes, he was gifted with excellent control, technique, flair, and dribbling ability, and he was also a very creative player. An ultimate predator, Altafini made a name for himself as a highly prolific goalscorer throughout his career, due to his powerful, accurate shot and instinctive opportunism inside the penalty area. Currently, Altafini is the joint-fourth highest scorer in Italian Serie A history. Also, held the record for the most goals scored in a single European Cup campaign for over 50 years with 14 goals until recently when he was overtaken by Cristiano Ronaldo in 2013-14 season with 17 goals.



THE TACTICS

We will play the 4-4-1-1/4-2-3-1 formation. Ladislao Mazurkiewicz is the goalkeeper. The four-man defense comprises of Gianluca Zambrotta, Ciro Ferrara, Alessandro Costacurta and Denis Irwin. Ciro Ferrara and Alessandro Costacurta form the central defense while Gianluca Zambrotta and Denis Irwin play as right back and left back respectively, with the license to overlap. Both possess a great engine and are very good crossers of the ball. They would look to overlap down the flanks and support the wingers ahead of them.

In midfield, we would have a double-pivot of Clodoaldo and Xabi Alonso. Clodoaldo would play as the defensive midfielder, while Xabi Alonso would play in his natural role as a deep-lying playmaker. Clodoaldo would provide the steel in midfield. He has the engine and defensive nous to cover the backline. Xabi Alonso as a deep-lying playmaker, would look to initiate swift attacks from the back. He has the passing range and ability to switch the play from defense to attack in a matter of secs.

On the flanks, we have two excellent wingers in Bruno Conti and Pierre Littbarski. Two outstanding dribblers, who with their pace and ability to turn on a dime and leave defenders for dead would be vital in providing our attack with ammo down the flanks. Both were good passers and crossers of the balls. They were equally comfortable cutting in and getting involved in the build-up play as they were drifting out wide and beating the opposition full-back to provide the width.

At the heart of the team is, Teófilo Cubillas. The assigned player. Playing in a free-role behind the striker, Teófilo Cubillas has been given the license to roam all around the final third and link-up with others. With Alonso in the midfield, there won't be any need for Cubillas to constantly drop deep to get the ball. Conti and Littbarski can provide him with service and link-up from the flanks along with the full-backs while Xabi can get him the ball in and near the final third where he would get the chance to run at opposition defenders. He would be provided with adequate service to do his magic in the attacking third.

Up front, we have José Altafini leading the line. A spectacular finisher, Altafini would would look to utilize his pace and get at the end of those through-balls by Cubillas. He would also run the channels, thereby creating space for Cubillas to attack in a one-on-one situations along with dropping deep and linking up with Cubillas.

The team is perfectly built to take the best out of Cubillas. The entire front six along the full-backs, Zambrotta and Irwin were all very good passers. So, they would link-up really well with Cubillas. Cubillas had a tendency to drop deep to in and around the zone near the left flank, where he would often get the ball and look to run at opposition defenders. With Littbarski on that side, we have a wide attacker who could switch with Cubillas and play quick one-twos making it impossible for opposition defenders to deal with them because of the pace and insane close control they possess.

Last but not the least, I have paid special attention to the fact that the team had great dribblers in it who with their close control and agility could deceive opposition defenders into fouling them, thereby winning fouls and giving Cubillas great chance to score from free-kicks.
 
Last edited:

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,669
  • Draft matches would be decided based on who has crafted/built the more coherent and cohesive tactical set-up around his main star as opposed to who might win in a fantasy encounter. Hopefully, this paves way for interesting discussions on the set-ups themselves - delving deeper into the creation/evolution etc of said set-up - and the personnel fit.
  • Voters are asked to consider the XIs featured as 2 separate teams not like a classic game of football, and to consider to what extent the manager has succeeded in building around his central figure. This is not a fantasy match but a comparison of 2 tactical attempts.
  • Teams will be built and judged for best tactical fits rather then the quality of the team. First, team has to be perfectly built around the central figure, if both teams are very close then you look at the other specific pairings, good fits for the team etc. if the level is still close then you watch at quality of the individual players except of the central player.
good luck @Edgar Allan Pillow @The Red Viper
 
Last edited:

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,811
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Plenty of quality and some very nice synergies in both teams. My initial critiques:

For TRV, I had Altafini pegged as a single-minded goalscorer, and my initial thought is that a more selfless centre forward with better hold up play might be the better choice to bring out the best in Cubillas.

For Edgar, I love most of that Zona Mista set up, but I'm not seeing the logic of Thomas Muller as playmaker. For all his qualities he's not really an orchestrator. Switching him and Enzo might have been the better option IMO.
 

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,669
Plenty of quality and some very nice synergies in both teams. My initial critiques:

For TRV, I had Altafini pegged as a single-minded goalscorer, and my initial thought is that a more selfless centre forward with better hold up play might be the better choice to bring out the best in Cubillas.

For Edgar, I love most of that Zona Mista set up, but I'm not seeing the logic of Thomas Muller as playmaker. For all his qualities he's not really an orchestrator. Switching him and Enzo might have been the better option IMO.
Yeah, seems strange as Muller without a playmaker role is actually a great fit.
But "bermuda triangle" of edgar gets me every time i see his formation picture :lol: Stiles, Montero and Gentile....think everyone would drift out wide.
 

Invictus

Poster of the Year 2015 & 2018
Staff
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
15,272
Supports
Piracy on the High Seas.
* Test vote.
 

Invictus

Poster of the Year 2015 & 2018
Staff
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
15,272
Supports
Piracy on the High Seas.
Resetting poll. Please recast the votes so the managers can see who voted for whom.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,446
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
For Edgar, I love most of that Zona Mista set up, but I'm not seeing the logic of Thomas Muller as playmaker. For all his qualities he's not really an orchestrator. Switching him and Enzo might have been the better option IMO.
I was basing this loosely off the Grande Inter team and Muller's role kinda resembles what Sandro Mazzola played. Not exactly a #10 playmaker in a classical sense, but more of a right-ish Inside Forward who can drop back to link with midfield. Imo that role equally balances attacking goal scoring instincts with the need to drop back and link with midfield and Muller is a perfect fit there.

Imo you don't really need a proper #10 in my team. It was split between Mazzola and Suarez in Grande Inter. Here it is split between Enzo, Muller and Junior. With Enzo being the Fantasista, I needed a non-dominating Trequartista who will support first and not require the play to be run through him and Muller fits the bill. His raumdeuter intelligence in exploiting gaps and workrate is perfect + with both him and Donadoni capable of operating both inside and out creates a flexible attack that will make it hard for the defence.

For one, #10 Enzo has been done in drafts before and I wanted to recreate the more attacking Inside Left/Outside Left free roaming forward role for him and get the best of 2 x league top scorer Enzo. When we attack down the left with Junior playmaking from the midfield and Benarrrivo overlapping, we'll see the Left Forward goal scoring Second Striker Enzo (with Muller operating centrally) and when we attack down the right, Enzo will drift down the middle to orchestrate with Muller and Donandoni taking more attacking positions down that flank.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,654
Two very good teams and I like both set ups to highlight the star player.

As others said I'm unsure about Muller role. Even if we go with Grande Inter they relied a lot on Suarez to do the playmaking whilst Mazzola was more of a SS with also a brilliant link up and passing ability, but more direct and the goalscorer type if anything.

Edgar's defence is well thought out and I like his wings, I'd swap Muller and Francescoli roles tho and give the playmaking role to him.
 

Ecstatic

Cutie patootie!
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
13,787
Supports
PsG
I would like to know more about Fransescoli and Cubillas: career peak, the version you like the most (Cubillas 78?)...

In other words, if I want to discover Prime Fransecoli/Cubillas, what would be the teams/games/tournaments I should analyze?
 
Last edited:

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,188
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
Muller role would make a lot more sense to me if EP just called him a raumdeuter instead of Treq
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,446
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,446
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
What is this raumdeuter and why have I never heard of it before?
:confused:

It literally means "interpreter of space". It is a free role where the player has freedom to roam around moving into positions (both central and wide) wherever he can make a difference. Needs a variety of abilities from scoring, linkup play, running into space, ability to operate centrally and wide, game reading intelligence and passing/scoring abilities. Muller is the current and (probably) the best Raumdeuter.

Muller:
- Good scoring ability
- plays centrally and wide for Bayern/Germany. (can interchange with Donadoni who can also operate centrally and wide)
- Intelligent and excellent reader of game.
- Good workrate and can link with midfield and/or create for others and/or move ahead to score himself.
- Unselfish player who can flex his game around Enzo.

Perfect fit there.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,654
@Edgar Allan Pillow think the trequartista term is the confusing one rather than raumdeuter. Usually people associate trequartista with #10 classic playmaker type rather than your free roaming forward or second striker.
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
EAP has a good team but Muller really sticks out like a sore thumb there. Can't see any similarities between him and the traditional playmakers who have usually played that role in that formation. You need a proper creative presence there who can link up the midfield and attack and control the game, which is completely out of Muller's scope, while Donadoni will be marauding down the right there. It's the most important position in this formation and that's a bit of a let down. Enzo is perfect in that role, though.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,446
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
EAP has a good team but Muller really sticks out like a sore thumb there. Can't see any similarities between him and the traditional playmakers who have usually played that role in that formation. You need a proper creative presence there who can link up the midfield and attack and control the game, which is completely out of Muller's scope, while Donadoni will be marauding down the right there. It's the most important position in this formation and that's a bit of a let down. Enzo is perfect in that role, though.
I don't get this. Mazzola played that role and he was not a traditional playmaker. Mazzola is closer to Muller than a classic #10.

Thankfully for me @Enigma_87 has a write up in the other thread for me to steal :D

Sandro, despite his touch and vision, was a bustling forward, perfect at defending from the front as Herrera demanded. He buzzed around in the inside right position, finding space and turning possession over.
...
capable of using his body to shield possession and spotting passes before most others on the field.

...
like deep forward, who had great technique and finishing instincts.

So, we are looking for a player who positions as deep forward, who's got work rate, dribbling, finishing and creativity.
Key point to note is that he acted as a Deep lying Forward and not as a classic #10. Muller is no as pacey as Mazzola, but considering I have Enzo as fantasista, Muller is a better fit here.
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
Key point to note is that he acted as a Deep lying Forward and not as a classic #10. Muller is no as pacey as Mazzola, but considering I have Enzo as fantasista, Muller is a better fit here.
Dribbling and Creativity are quite key there as well. Muller is an off the ball workhorse and an outlet, never someone who can link the midfield and attack.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,446
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
Dribbling and Creativity are quite key there as well. Muller is an off the ball workhorse and an outlet, never someone who can link the midfield and attack.
Here's a brief description of Mazzola at Inter

"A tactically intelligent and versatile player, he was capable of playing in several advanced positions. Due to his athleticism and work-rate, he was primarily utilised as an inside-right under Herrera, but he was also used as a centre-forward, as a winger, and as a supporting striker on occasion."

Tell me which part of that doesn't apply for Muller.

That position has never been a #10 role and I can't think of any zona mista team that played a "creative force" #10 there.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,185
Location
Montevideo
Plenty of quality and some very nice synergies in both teams. My initial critiques:

For TRV, I had Altafini pegged as a single-minded goalscorer, and my initial thought is that a more selfless centre forward with better hold up play might be the better choice to bring out the best in Cubillas.

For Edgar, I love most of that Zona Mista set up, but I'm not seeing the logic of Thomas Muller as playmaker. For all his qualities he's not really an orchestrator. Switching him and Enzo might have been the better option IMO.
Agreed on Altafini not being the ideal striker. I'd also add Xabi to that as Cubillas typically dropped into a left-half positioning without the ball and start moves/runs from there. What on earth do you want a DLP there for? I don't see any runners from midfield either for him to one-two with, just a conventional 4-2-3-1 which I don't think suits him at all. I expected something different with Cubillas and Litti as AMs combining to good effect through the middle, but he is on the left wing.

With Edgar the crux is that Enzo should be the 10 there, no two ways about it. Müller would make a great Boniek and his intelligent movement is a great fit, be it for Enzo to exploit and assist him or find gaps for himself. It's a great great pick... and then he makes Müller the playmaker which makes absolutely no sense. If he wanted Enzo as SS then zona mista is the wrong setup, SS Enzo excelled alongside other great creative forces. Just look at his two greatest seasons as SS (the two Libertadores wins with River, a decade apart): Gorosito and Beto Alonso, then the more familiar Gallardo and Ortega in 95. The beauty was if they were to be supressed Enzo could always turn #10 instead, but more often than not he didn't need to, which is not what will happen here.

Once you go past the confusion the misguided instructions will cause, let's say Müller does what he should, Enzo too... then I have a problem with Junior. You don't need a playmaking CM, you don't need his free kicks, and his forward forays will likely take him into Enzo's space. Screw that, what EAP/Enzo needs there is a conventional CM like Marchisio, not Junior.

I don't think either manager did a particularly good job of leveraging their men's key strengths, but all in all, at least I see EAP having more to work with and a real scope for Enzo imposing himself on the game.
 
Last edited:

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
That position has never been a #10
What nonsense.

The Zona Mista is a counter attacking formation, in which the position occupied here by Muller is the REGISTA, the playmaker, the one who drops deep into midfield and launches the counters.

The players you'd have there are the likes of Platini, not Thomas fecking Muller.
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
Which #10 played that position in a real life team? Mazzola did with Grande Inter and he's closer stylistically to Muller than a #10.
He's nothing like Muller. His biggest strengths weren't off the ball running and positioning while others ran the show, he was primarily a creative attacking midfielder/#10 who was tremendously gifted on the ball, had great vision and creativity as well as dribbling and control in tight spaces.

Watch where he picks up the ball here, how much time he spends on it, and what he does with it. He had the control of the tempo of the game and the ability to be the orchestrator especially when the Inter team played with a deep defense and allowed him to control the offense.

He's constantly linking up with Suarez deep in midfield or in the area where a #10 operates, building up attack.

 

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,669
Agree with Moby, dont see much similarities between Mazzola and Muller.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,185
Location
Montevideo
Apart from Mazzola, Platini is the obvious one surely? And Liam Brady directly before him.
The moment you play a raumdeuter to exploit and create space for runners the obvious one is Platini.

1. Dropping deep to start moves: have you ever seen a Uruguayan central midfielder capable of anything better than a crab pass (sideways pass)? Guess who was doing that to such effect that Uruguay got not one but three Copa Américas?

2. #10 incisive passing, one-twos, probing for the right move? Enzo 101, a one man team.

3. Goals from set pieces or after finding great positions in the box as a second striker. Apart from a brief period when we had peak Sosa playing, that's the only way we ever scored for about 15 years :lol:
 

The Red Viper

Full Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Messages
2,018
Supports
Liverpool
Agreed on Altafini not being the ideal striker. I'd also add Xabi to that as Cubillas typically dropped into a left-half positioning without the ball and start moves/runs from there. What on earth do you want a DLP there for? I don't see any runners from midfield either for him to one-two with, just a conventional 4-2-3-1 which I don't think suits him at all. I expected something different with Cubillas and Litti as AMs combining to good effect through the middle, but he is on the left wing.
Because I don't want Cubillas to constantly drop deep to get the ball. Thats why. Cubillas wasn't an orthodox old-school No 10. He dropped deep occasionally but not like an orthodox no 10 like a Zidane or Rui Costa. If anything he was more of a player whose best was playing between the lines and combining with the other attackers. Obviously he liked to drop deep into that left sided zone around the circle in the midfield and start the moves but that wasn't what that just defined him.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,185
Location
Montevideo
Because I don't want Cubillas to constantly drop deep to get the ball. Thats why. Cubillas wasn't an orthodox old-school No 10. He dropped deep occasionally but not like an orthodox no 10 like a Zidane or Rui Costa. If anything he was more of a player whose best was playing between the lines and combining with the other attackers. Obviously he liked to drop deep into that left sided zone around the circle in the midfield and start the moves but that wasn't what that just defined him.
So you should allow for that preference of his seeing as the side is meant to bebuilt around him. Subject to opposition it may or may not be needed, but the option should be there (which it is, it's just you are overlapping playmakers unnecessarily). The main issue though is the lack of runners close to him, neither CM will drive forward for the 1-2, Altafini won't combine like el Cholo, so the whole playing between the lines with others goes out of the window.
 

SirMattBugsby

Full Member
Joined
May 27, 2016
Messages
1,537
Location
In the house!
I actually liked @Edgar Allan Pillow 's earlier (as well as current) system. Müller might be in the number 10 position, but he would drift into the space left by Enzo. It's a classic decoy. Works for me.

Do think @The Red Viper overdid the getting free-kicks thing. Everyone in the front four is a bit of a solo player. The striker and one of the wingers should have been of different profile to complement Cubillas.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,185
Location
Montevideo
I would like to know more about Fransescoli and Cubillas: career peak, the version you like the most (Cubillas 78?)...

In other words, if I want to discover Prime Fransecoli/Cubillas, what would be the teams/games/tournaments I should analyze?
Enzo's legacy is somewhat tainted by his lack of ambition / bizarre priorities when choosing clubs. Going to France meant he was well out of the limelight despite playing with the likes of Bossis, Littbarski, Forster, Fernandez, Tigana, Waddle, Papin... How many of these do you know for their club form? None I'd guess, bar Papin but already in the 90s. He was extraordinary though, so much so that Zidane modeled his game on Enzo's and even named his kid Enzo.

Then in 1988-89 the opportunity for a big break came: Cruyff wanted him for his Dream Team. His billionaire toy club (Racing Paris) refused to entertain any offers... only to financially collapse once Laudrup was already at Barca and shipping him off to Marseille. Had he stayed there, he could still have been part of that 1993 CL vintage, but his manager had other ideas.

Back then one player manager pretty much owned all Uruguayan internationals and had other ideas: to take him to Serie A as part of a triple package. Just like AC had three Dutch and Inter had three Germans, others would fancy a Uruguayan spine... only a midtable side, surely? Enzo became the bargaining chip for this and played along, it was a recurring theme throughout the 90s: "if you want X you also have to buy Y and Z" so most Uruguayan signings in Serie A came in duos or trios. That's how he ended up at Cagliari and then Torino, which is quite sad as it meant spending about five years doing all that he always did for Uruguay: being a one-man team fighting against gigantic odds. At least the upside long term was that his loyalty was rewarded with a high flying exec job in his player managers' media empire (guess who earned him the seed capital though!).

So at club level you are really looking at his River stints either side of his Europe years. In both he won the double (league and Libertadores) being their key player. River fans swear by him and idolise him even more than Maradona. Their 1995-96 campaign is well documented and a joy to watch as it included several hugely talented kids being groomed by The Prince and his experience: Crespo, Ortega, Gallardo, Almeyda, Astrada, Sorín, then Salas when he burst onto the scene.

With the national team he was very unlucky to play alongside a bunch of cloggers. The most talented team he was part of (1986) never materialised on the pitch (the coach insisting on workmanlike tactics and always keeping some truly great attacking players on the bench or even out of the match squad). I wouldn't expect it to be particularly enjoyable to research him and watch games, they largely consist of one guy getting man-marked by up to three players, getting the shit kicked out of him and getting up again for more. The other ten guys on the pitch -bar Sosa- typically offer no more than five minutes of good play.

His record is remarkable though: 4 Copa Américas played, three won (1983 beating Brazil over two legs, 1987 in Argentina knocking out the world champions, 1995 in Uruguay beating world champions Brazil in the final) and one as runner-up (1989 in Brazil, losing to Brazil in the final 1-0). All largely one man jobs fighting against all odds.

At World Cups it was impossible to replicate that, European teams are far more organised and better suited to neuter one-man bands (see Denmark 6-1 in 86 or Italy 2-0 in 1990).

For games worth watching on their own merit (and due to the other greats involved at the other end) I would check 1983 final against Brazil, 1990 pre-WC friendly against Germany 3-3, and the 1995 final against Brazil.

All the above is pretty well summarised in this clip I put together some time ago:

 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,044
Location
Moscow
What on earth do you want a DLP there for?
Seeing that Clodoaldo is here and with all the usual Pele references there is a possibility that he wanted to have a Gerson-like figure in the middle. Not that it was required, mind
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,343
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Andy Cole's an interesting selection. Never thought he'd see the light of day in an almost all-time draft and I can think of a few unpicked strikers a couple of classes above cut from the same cloth. Still the fit is nice enough and his role is clear, which is important. I like EAP's defence, really solid and chiseled out of the Serie A rock that Enzo played amongst. Great coup securing Montero and it almost seems like an anomaly that he didn't share an international tournament with Francescoli.

A lot of sexy football in TRV's midfield - they wouldn't give it up easily.
Last but not the least, I have paid special attention to the fact that the team had great dribblers in it who with their close control and agility could deceive opposition defenders into fouling them, thereby winning fouls and giving Cubillas great chance to score from free-kicks.
Love the attention to detail. On one hand, that trio could be too hot to handle and will dovetail really well. On the other, I wonder if Littbarski and Cubillas will run into each other's space? I'm not sure - inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt as both Conti and Littbarski were intelligent players who could stretch the attack.