I didn’t say that. I said we’d spent 400 million.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager / awaiting clarity from the club over his position
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The 1 in midfield is Onana.
the question is...8 or 6?!Things must be improving as last I heard we were on course for 10th.
I'm sure he was shown around Carrington at one point. Dortmund had a better path to first team football than United offered from what I recall
I could be wrong but wasn't he also a Liverpool fan?
Yes but I genuinely don't think that was factored in
I'd say the fans share some of the blame. I still think we have a group of good old boys planted at Manchester United and living the high life. A theory -- every time someone wants to interrupt the party and impose some structure/discipline, out comes MUST or other organizations to direct attention to the owners in Tampa Bay. And the fans fall for it every time, rather than working with the Glazers to clear out the rot in the organization.
Sir Alex and David Gill (Gill was brought in by the Glazer says Wikipedia, is this true?) both left at the same time, leaving a shambles behind them + David Moyes. Another duo who shares the blame. Well, a trio.
Yes, because the Glazer's would definitely be collaborative with fans to clear out the organisation that they lead. Wikipedia also says that David Gill joined United 8 years before the Glazer's took over, they did bring in Ed Woodward though after he helped advise them on the takeover and a lot of the "good old boys" still in tact are Woodward allies (including Arnold) or Woodward appointments (including Murtough).
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What the feck are you talking about? They are the organisation. You think they're looking for the fans to reach out and help them?? Sweet Jesus.
If rashford was 2/3 to half the player he was last year Hojland would have benefited a lot from the positions he got himself in. Antony and sancho combined did the numbers of a mediocre RW, literally. I just see that side being a massive issue which is why I’d rather us play with two up top, a creator in Bruno underneath and then three CMs
I'll say this given I was still complaining when this place was full of Ten Hag fans when we were 3 behind City.
If he survives the next 3, he'll be good for the season. (liv (A), whu (A), AVL (H))
If he survives the next 3, he'll be good for the season. (liv (A), whu (A), AVL (H))
Some fans seem to think that if we only post nice things we'll win more often. It's really strange.
That said, some fans think posting angry things will help too which is equally wrong.
i think there should be no discussion of sacking the manager. What would the plan be? Sack him, get another one and sack him after 18 months? Just continue the cycle?
rangnick said it needs an open heart surgery to fix this club and we have still not done that. Mourinho pointed out the bad recruitment. See where the players who left united play, how they play, if they play. Ronaldo spoke about what’s happening in the club, zlatan spoke about the standards, etc.. it is obvious to see that the issue is beyond the manager.
fundamental changes need to be made before discussing the manager. I am not saying he should be safe from criticism and immune from the sack, but he needs to be given the right set up around him to succeed. Otherwise, we’ll just continue going round in circles. not to mention who is being rumored to take over if ETH is sacked. That would be a nightmare
Louis van Gaal says hi. I guess the Dutch are stubborn in their ways. Funny enough, the last time I recall a variant of a single pivot working was under him, where for a stretch of games the Carrick, Herrera, Fellaini midfield was very dominant for us which included that famous Juanfield.
What cycle are you talking about? The only cycle I see is us hiring crap managers. This is the first time after SAF that we hire a manager that realistically could work (could've worked).
huh? So our issue since 2013 is managers?
Yeah this season's been extremely bizarre. He had more joy from last season and was pretty much heralded like Ange this season.
It's so bitterly disappointing as most United fans expected us to kick on since ETH would have more time and transfers to further improve our play. The Mount signing and pre-season setup shook my confidence though and after the 1st couple of games I decided not to subscribe to our games this season.
He is talking about the cycle of delusion.
I think you said spending £400m means your squad must be better than 6th place. Do you really believe that to be true? Or in other words, do you really believe that if the players cost a lot they must, by definition, be of corresponding quality?
Or shall we just look at the actual players in the whole squad and ask whether, as a group, they are genuinely better than 6th place?
Everyone knows we spent too much on the players we bought. However, when fit, they are arguably better than the players we had before. It should be obvious to everyone at this point that elite players don’t want to come here and clubs know that we don’t have the options we used to have, they know we are desperate and they milk us.
There may be an argument for promoting youth and building from the bottom up (instead of overspending on tier 2 players) but that also wouldn’t make the squad good enough to compete on similar footing to the teams above us. Not right away.
If we get everyone fit, we can put out a team that belongs in the top four. I’ll give you that. Most of the time we’re carrying players who aren’t up to it.
There's an obvious, and strong correlation. To deny that is just ridiculous.
We just happen to have landed on another shite manager who has shown no sign of learning from his mistakes.
Not just that spending £400 mil makes you better than 6th place but that we were already better than 6th place before spending £400 million.
although people say we have been shit for the last ten years, we have yes but that’s being relative to our expectations. We’ve hovered around top four for the last decade without ever looking serious title challengers. Now we’ve got a new Manager and spent that amount of money but all of a sudden you see people say we are only expected 6th - 10th. For me that points to both the manager and recruitment being shit if it’s true.
He's getting cooked in here one way or the other.
Let's go.
Let's go.
So the facts are simple: we'll likely end the day 8th in the table, level but behind West Ham on goal difference (!). We're out of an easy CL group, despite leading two matches by 2 goals (or was it 3?). Our home form is awful. We've simply do not win away matches against decent teams. We have a negative goal difference, almost halfway through the season.
That is brutal, unforgiveable stuff. If the season ended tomorrow, ETH would be gone and deserve it. But...
We have 2 football matches in January. That should mean we should, in theory, have our entire squad fit for the first time. And most importantly, our entire first XI fit for the first time. The players ETH has been able to field this season - particularly in midfield - are not top 10 quality. Despite the high value that we've spent, ETH hasn't actually bought that many first team players, despite losing quite a few. DDG-Onana; Ronaldo/Hojland; Fred/? etc. What he needs is the ability to make mistakes, but also have at least one other crack it. Eriksen was sensible as a free, but where's the true, every match CM? Antony is a flop, but find me a good manager that hasn't bought a mercurial winger who has failed. Hojland is a newcomer, and basically the only CF in the squad worth the title.
And you don't get top players on loan. For obvious reasons.
So the realistic thing that'll happen is that this will be the nadir of ETH. He'll likely lose 3 of 4 here (Bayern already, then Pool and Villa). But hopefully, that's where he'll get a chance to show us what he can do in the next 6 months. If it gets good, great. If it doesn't, great we get rid.
That is brutal, unforgiveable stuff. If the season ended tomorrow, ETH would be gone and deserve it. But...
We have 2 football matches in January. That should mean we should, in theory, have our entire squad fit for the first time. And most importantly, our entire first XI fit for the first time. The players ETH has been able to field this season - particularly in midfield - are not top 10 quality. Despite the high value that we've spent, ETH hasn't actually bought that many first team players, despite losing quite a few. DDG-Onana; Ronaldo/Hojland; Fred/? etc. What he needs is the ability to make mistakes, but also have at least one other crack it. Eriksen was sensible as a free, but where's the true, every match CM? Antony is a flop, but find me a good manager that hasn't bought a mercurial winger who has failed. Hojland is a newcomer, and basically the only CF in the squad worth the title.
And you don't get top players on loan. For obvious reasons.
So the realistic thing that'll happen is that this will be the nadir of ETH. He'll likely lose 3 of 4 here (Bayern already, then Pool and Villa). But hopefully, that's where he'll get a chance to show us what he can do in the next 6 months. If it gets good, great. If it doesn't, great we get rid.
ten Hag is not in charge of the transfer fee or the final wage of his players. Basically, as is with many other clubs, the manager identifies a target and corresponds with 'the powers that be' to secure the player.
In other words, it's on Arnold/Murtough Antony was acquired for as much as he was. Ten times his Ajax wage. Ten times.
This doesn't exonerate EtH from his blame (we should be focusing on performance as he's been the biggest letdown this term), but managers generally follow players from their host league or hitherto staff. What's absent at OT is a reputable scouting network, the likes of which is present at other clubs, including clubs much smaller than ours. It's genuinely EtH doing all the work (as it was with previous managers).
Sacking EtH and not replacing the structure around him is the definition of insanity. United are desperate for serious change.
Yes, but it's still not a first XI where he has signed everyone. Can we really judge him until he's had a chance put out a true ETH XI?
Even if the absolute numbers are out of his control, surely he can understand basic fractions?
If he's told "we're going to pay half your transfer budget for Antony or a third of your transfer budget for Onana, are you sure you want to proceed?", I think he should be expected to make a sensible decision. One that he's absolutely held responsible for in equal measure.
He's not doing any scouting work. Don't be ridiculous.
He just points to his previous players and says "I want him". Of course it's not his job to scout players, but to claim that he's doing that and that's also why he's not able to perform well in his main job is just not true.
This I agree.
But there's so much mental gymnastics justifying the manager's shit performance as somehow the available players not being good enough to execute his masterplan. That could be applicable to everyone including fecking Moyes. Our over the hill players just couldn't implement his counter-attacking masterclass.
So what you are saying is ETH said I like Antony and Murtough turned up one day and said 'Suprise! We got him for 90 mill and 200 grand a week! Bargain!' and ETH said 'How much! I meant get him for 30 ish! I can't believe you guys sometimes. You're crazy!'
Also players generally do not follow managers. Pep and Klopp have signed like 1 or 2 max from previous clubs. Its only us who does it like idiots
He would have been told the details of the summer budget and he would also know the fee Ajax are demanding only a idiot wouldn't realise that signing a 90m player would effect further deals
Even we as fans know the fee before the deal is complete they should have withdrawn and focused on other signings like City have countless times
I bet those idiots in charge had never even heard of Antony it's 100% on ETH
The wage certainly isn't ETH's fault in that situation. But he definitely can take some blame for the transfer fee depending on how insistent he is on getting certain players.
If the club feels a player isn't the right move (either because they think he's not good enough or that he would be too expensive), they are put in a tough spot if the manager pushes for him. Either they say no and the media and fans spend the next decade blaming the club for not backing the manager (look at Mourinho despite every player we know he wanted going on to be average or worse at their later clubs), or they buy that player and it ends up being a failure so they get blamed for signing him.
The club doesn't have the right structure in place, which ends up meaning the manager gains too much control in the transfer decisions. That's on the club. If the manager doesn't really want to control that side of things but has to because of that failure (LVG perhaps?), then I'd have a lot of sympathy for them. However if the manager expressly pushes for that extra power in those decisions (which from the sounds of it ETH did), then he also has to take his share of the blame.
It really has struck me over the last few days how we’re likely to get comfortably beaten by Liverpool today, and it won’t even really be that big of a story, it’s expected. The position this club currently is in, is unforgivable.
You have a higher opinion of the players than me, evidently.
It doesn’t really matter how good we were in the past. Expectation for the club is obviously to challenge for the title but you can’t do it without good players. Leicester won it with a system that suited their players but, crucially, they had Kante, Mahrez and Vardy. Put those three in our team and we’d be winning a lot more games.
The recruitment hasn’t been great and, yes, we spent loads so it’s definitely been poor value for money. It’s just not a simple job to recruit three players of the quality of 2016-era Kante, Mahrez and Vardy but that is essentially what we need.
Reasonable people look at our starting players over the last few months and realise that most of them would not get into the team if they were at most top-half clubs. We do have some good players but not many of them are available. The ones that are haven’t been playing well.
The manager has made some strange decisions and over-estimates the players ability to carry out his instructions. That’s on EtH. He’s flawed. To suggest his available players are good enough is unnecessary and far from true. There’s plenty of justifiable criticism for EtH without the need to exaggerate. If it’s short term results you want, Sam Allardyce will do a job.
Thanks for the whiplash.
"recruitment hasn't been great". Also, take three top players from a PL winning side and just "put those three in our team and we'd be winning a lot more games".
You sound exactly like all our post SAF managers. Just buy three top players for our current team regardless of the manager's style and calibre and we'll obviously win a "lot" more games.
Are you mad?
Thanks for the whiplash.
"recruitment hasn't been great". Also, take three top players from a PL winning side and just "put those three in our team and we'd be winning a lot more games".
You sound exactly like all our post SAF managers. Just buy three top players for our current team regardless of the manager's style and calibre and we'll obviously win a "lot" more games.
Yeah, EtH just happens to be shit. Give yourself a biscuit for that analysis.
Believing that we can somehow win more games without the quality of players that our rivals have is as dumb as it gets.
So true. It won't even hurt as usual as we have been mentally prepared for this I hope we don't concede double digits today.
It will hurt. We might be numb but some pain gets through. Every loss to Liv feels like the last straw to me. It’s inevitable, of course, so it’s hurting already.
I’m in such a shit mood today because the spanking is coming and we can’t do a damn thing and what’s worse is that we will set up and play as if we don’t understand the enormity of this rivalry. It will look as though neither manager nor players (not to mention owners and executives) care a jot.
If we start from the position that we won't win today, the most disappointing thing is that we won't even fight for it.
Even when Liverpool were going through their dark period in the 90s and 00s, they always put up a fight when they played us. They had pride and passion.
We won't play with pride or passion. And that is on Ten Hag. You don't have to be a tactical genius, you don't have to be the oracle of all knowledge when scouting and buying players to send out a team that plays for the badge, and will fight to the end. Look at what Palace did to City yesterday... people call Roy a dinosaur, but even he can get decent performances out of a pretty mediocre bunch of players.
We have an expensive squad. We have some home grown players. We have experience, we have youth. If ETH can't get any kind of tune out of that, surely he has to go?
I'm starting to think he may actually be the worst manager we've had since Sir Alex retired.
Even when Liverpool were going through their dark period in the 90s and 00s, they always put up a fight when they played us. They had pride and passion.
We won't play with pride or passion. And that is on Ten Hag. You don't have to be a tactical genius, you don't have to be the oracle of all knowledge when scouting and buying players to send out a team that plays for the badge, and will fight to the end. Look at what Palace did to City yesterday... people call Roy a dinosaur, but even he can get decent performances out of a pretty mediocre bunch of players.
We have an expensive squad. We have some home grown players. We have experience, we have youth. If ETH can't get any kind of tune out of that, surely he has to go?
I'm starting to think he may actually be the worst manager we've had since Sir Alex retired.
Ask yourself if you don't trust ten hag having any say in transfers then why keep him because even if we do sort out a proper dof when Jim takes charge, managers still need to have some input with ins and outs of the squad, you can't tell me arteta, klopp, howe and pep do not have any say in transfers in and out of club.
We have been in this situation before, but what is different now is that the majority realize the manager is only part of the equation.
Last season you were all yammering on about playing out the back, replacing DeGea and pressing high, now I read replacing the gk wasn’t a priority and we should not play that way.
Why is Hag persisting? Playing through the press if there is one, opens up space for our fast attackers playing to their strengths, and Bruno’s.
Pressing high generates turnovers which would normally speaking get us goals. With attackers out of form, teenagers leading the line, some downing tools and Martial being done at this level, we aren’t scoring.
If you think we ought to be challenging for top three with these issues, you are mistaken. We need to persist and finish reshaping the squad: results will come.
Of course it will help if we sort out all the other issues in the club. I personally hope Ten Hag will survive long enough to finish what he started.
Last season you were all yammering on about playing out the back, replacing DeGea and pressing high, now I read replacing the gk wasn’t a priority and we should not play that way.
Why is Hag persisting? Playing through the press if there is one, opens up space for our fast attackers playing to their strengths, and Bruno’s.
Pressing high generates turnovers which would normally speaking get us goals. With attackers out of form, teenagers leading the line, some downing tools and Martial being done at this level, we aren’t scoring.
If you think we ought to be challenging for top three with these issues, you are mistaken. We need to persist and finish reshaping the squad: results will come.
Of course it will help if we sort out all the other issues in the club. I personally hope Ten Hag will survive long enough to finish what he started.
But why does he want to continue playing like this through an injury crisis when it’s clearly not working and is disastrous on both sides of the pitch?
Especially with players that should be largely gone by next summer, where’s the need to drum in a style of play that is taking so long that it looks like it cannot stick? The players who will actually play for us aren’t having it drummed into them because of the injury list so where’s the benefit?