stevoc
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- Jun 11, 2011
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There's just not enough strong indication he'll be going for me.
Fair enough, but what sort of things would indicate he would be going for you?
There's just not enough strong indication he'll be going for me.
Kind of my thoughts as well. Have no other choice than to accept it if he stays, though personally I don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel.Not saying that there hasn’t been done context but 19 defeats, unbelievably poor CL performance in the ‘easiest’ group etc, they weigh heavily
if he is kept then I will back him but if he is kept he will have been very lucky. Bigger coaches have been moved on for less
When we were going for Mourinho (before LVG was sacked) it was obvious, there was too much smoke. Similar with Ten Hag.Fair enough, but what sort of things would indicate he would be going for you?
Relatively speaking, compared to the dross served in the last few weeks, sure.Heaven forbid anyone enjoy a good win on a Manchester United fan forum.
I thought the game management was really good, the tactical choices caused Newcastle significant issues too.
It was a good performance.
Neither the same amount of investment/backing that EtH had. When they started spending huge, they (especially Klopp) started winning/competing.They also didn't have the same level of concentrated injuries. Ten Hag has made his mistakes there's no getting away from that - but it's not without context.
Arteta finished 8th twice, Arsenal accepted that.
Klopp finished 8th, Liverpool accepted that.
Did they make a mistake?
Did either of them take their club from 3rd to 8th in the space of one summer?
Correct, they didn’t, and comparing this season with the start of Arteta and Klopps reigns is as stupid now as it was in October when people started doing it to excuse our pathetic results.
I will always come across biased because even if I give the slightest bit of context (like questioning why people think Mount was only a Ten Hag pursuit and not wanted by anyone else at the club), there will be some familiar posters coming out calling me a c*ultist, a sympathiser etc
That being said, one thing I do like is that he's always fighting and always going out swinging whilst broadly defending his players. He's not thrown anyone under the bus unless they've taken a royal pisstake. But you consider the Rashford clubbing incident, the general shite performances, the media suggesting players are feigning injury and hide in games - he has come out constantly and defended them. He's also said some bat shit crazy things in pressers that I disagree with, but he's clearly a fighter and saying everything that should keep the players on his side. He's not fighting in a mourinho/conte destructive way, mugging off the structure, the players and the fans.
I wasn't surprised he was capable of giving a good message to the fans, because he genuinely wants to fight for everything and has no problem accepting the season isn't good enough for his own standards in the process. I thought he came across honest and likeable, and I think its clear the stadium thought the same.
It's clear you did not get what he was trying to say given the bold bit. He's not saying 8th is acceptable, he agrees it's terrible. But he is saying it was terrible by the same standards of say, Liverpool and Arsenal who have as much ambition as we do, who were in a better place than us, and they knew it was a temporary blip.
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. My view is that he's made some massive errors but I want to see how he fares given a chance to fix them going into next season. If Tuchel is staying at Bayern I think I'm cemented in my view further because I don't really think McKenna is ready and I genuinely think I'd be depressed with Southgate. Xavi/Enrique/Tuchel were my picks becuase they've won something big in their own leagues. 2 of them have CLs too.
Club | GP | Wins | Draws | Losses | GF | GA | GD | Points |
Man City | 51 | 39 | 8 | 5 | 127 | 42 | +85 | 125 |
Arsenal | 51 | 35 | 8 | 8 | 125 | 53 | +72 | 113 |
Liverpool | 51 | 31 | 14 | 6 | 119 | 60 | +59 | 107 |
Aston Villa | 51 | 29 | 11 | 11 | 97 | 64 | +33 | 98 |
Spurs | 51 | 24 | 9 | 18 | 97 | 89 | +8 | 81 |
Chelsea | 51 | 20 | 13 | 18 | 90 | 84 | +6 | 73 |
Newcastle | 51 | 26 | 9 | 16 | 114 | 76 | +38 | 87 |
Man Utd | 51 | 25 | 8 | 18 | 72 | 73 | -1 | 83 |
Did Klopp or Arteta have 70 odd injuries in those seasons?
Whether people want to see it or not, injuries ruined this season. We've been playing bloody Casemiro as a CB for nearly a month! Had no proper full backs for a lot of the season. Having to play players OOP. Martinez, Mount, Malacia MIA. Rashford having a stinker, Bruno being run into the ground.
I also think financially it makes more sense to get rid of some of the players and their wages, and have another year with ETH rather than having to pay him off AND pay for a new manager as well as the players instead and outs.
Just on the shots at players thing, he literally doesn't do this unless it's taking the piss. Sancho deserved to be disciplined and so did Ronaldo.He's learned to stop taking shots at players publicly over time.
It contributed to Sancho leaving the club. He once made a comment about taking Casemiro off at HT for Eriksen because he wanted more football. Not the best words to use. He fell out with Varane earlier in the season. He kept playing Evans over him. Despite Varane being available.
I get that you want him to get another season, but I don't see how anyone can defend what's arguably our worst season in PL history. And we've been poor going back to last February/March. It's been a sustained run of bad form. He doesn't deserve the opportunity. I hate seeing failure rewarded.
Since winning The League Cup, we've played 51 PL games.
Our record:
25 wins
8 draws
18 defeats
49% win rate
72 GF
73 GA
-1 GD
Meaning that we have a negative GD spanning 51 PL games! Newcastle have scored 81 goals from 37 PL games this season alone. We've only scored 72 goals across our last 51 league games.
The PL table over the last 51 games:
Club GP Wins Draws Losses GF GA GD Points Man City 51 39 8 5 127 42 +85 125 Arsenal 51 35 8 8 125 53 +72 113 Liverpool 51 31 14 6 119 60 +59 107 Aston Villa 51 29 11 11 97 64 +33 98 Spurs 51 24 9 18 97 89 +8 81 Chelsea 51 20 13 18 90 84 +6 73 Newcastle 51 26 9 16 114 76 +38 87 Man Utd 51 25 8 18 72 73 -1 83
Did Klopp or Arteta have 70 odd injuries in those seasons?
Whether people want to see it or not, injuries ruined this season. We've been playing bloody Casemiro as a CB for nearly a month! Had no proper full backs for a lot of the season. Having to play players OOP. Martinez, Mount, Malacia MIA. Rashford having a stinker, Bruno being run into the ground.
I also think financially it makes more sense to get rid of some of the players and their wages, and have another year with ETH rather than having to pay him off AND pay for a new manager as well as the players instead and outs.
We have two seasons to assess him on already, what is one extra season really going to do?The sensible thing to do is keep him and let him have a season with a fit defence - start the squad refresh with Ineos people in charge and assess him next summer after a (hopefully) less freakish year. Unfortunately most people here don’t have enough patience for that. As Ratcliffe himself said, walk to the right solution instead of running to the wrong one.
Was thinking this after the game.I can’t tell one way or another.
I feel like he’s taken a “f*ck it” approach since March. I’d love to think it was some sort of SJR/INEOs “you play how you want to play regardless of players available” instruction but I just don’t know.
Regardless, I’d like to think INEOs have learned a lot during that period. Sometimes doing nothing so you can survey the car crash teaches you more then coming in and making huge changes.
Harry Maguire, Varane, Evans and Lindelof have effectively rotated with each other in terms of availability. Wan bissaka isn't a left back, and he's barely competent as a right back.If ETH is here next season all the injury problems will keep happening because they are largely down to his training methods and his system that pointlessly exhausts the players.
Hmmm no big fan of ETH Ball at the moment but saying you could see what Arteta doing is stretching it a bit. They were an utter shambles, the fan base calling for his head and the football had no clear identity. Lego Pep really helped by the fact he had some competent people above him.You could still see what they were trying to do
I cannot see what the hell Ten Hag wants us to play like
Just on the shots at players thing, he literally doesn't do this unless it's taking the piss. Sancho deserved to be disciplined and so did Ronaldo.
The fall out with Varane is guesstimating. I think he got sick and tired of Varane only being available for one game a week in a period where we needed continuity and games were every 3 games.
It at least feels odd how many players get injured in training and I don't think (but didn't check the numbers, so really just a feeling) that other clubs have the same ratio of injuries in game vs in training.Harry Maguire, Varane, Evans and Lindelof have effectively rotated with each other in terms of availability. Wan bissaka isn't a left back, and he's barely competent as a right back.
But you say the injuries will keep happening because of training, I find that odd. You're not in the training? What we do know is Varane was injury prone pre ten hag, that licha needed surgery and Lindelof needed surgery. Evans is also 38 and injury prone. I don't know why you have hanged on to training methods here.
Harry Maguire, Varane, Evans and Lindelof have effectively rotated with each other in terms of availability. Wan bissaka isn't a left back, and he's barely competent as a right back.
But you say the injuries will keep happening because of training, I find that odd. You're not in the training? What we do know is Varane was injury prone pre ten hag, that licha needed surgery and Lindelof needed surgery. Evans is also 38 and injury prone. I don't know why you have hanged on to training methods here.
I didn't spin over it. You are talking about two different points. I'm in agreement that the stats are bad, and that has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion on how he handles players.I suppose that not even you can find a way to spin a negative GD from 51 PL games. Hence why you conveniently brushed over it.
Varane was available for 10 out of 12 PL games between gameweek 6 and 17. ten Hag only started him in 2 of those games. Something clearly went on.
Are you not "guesstimating" with your take?
.
Funnily enough Varane was dropped to get some continuity as a partnership, since Varane can't play in congested fixture lists and that's well known.How many of the rotations in our back four are because ETH failed to settle on a replacement left back? Cycled through Amrabat, Reguilon and Lindelof earlier in the season. How many are because he randomly decided to drop Varane for about 8-10 games in the autumn because Evans was 'better on the left side'.
Even this month he still swaps Dalot and AWB on a game by game basis, when it's pretty obvious to all of us that, except for AWB man-marking Salah, Dalot should be playing left back.
It's not odd at all to suggest that injuries will keep happening. What is odd are all the ETH supporters who claim he deserves a chance next season when there aren't going to be any more disruptive injuries. Apparently by magic.
We have two seasons to assess him on already, what is one extra season really going to do?
Also the plan goes out the window if Martinez picks up another injury (which is possible), and then you may need another season.
Why do they need to give him an extra season to evaluate the idiot when he's had since the end of the cup run and all of this season to show he's bloody awful? Wilcox has been "evaluating" him since last month, how much longer do they need to realise he's shite?I think the extra season allows the Ineos appointments to come in and evaluate and make a more informed assessment, not just on TenHag but also on what we need if we are replacing him. Ashworth & Berrada have not worked with Ten Hag yet, Wilcox barely, and as much as we think we know what’s wrong looking in from outside, there’s no substitute for seeing things first hand on the ground.
Agree on the Martinez point, an aggressive ball playing CB is number 1 priority in my mind this summer.
I didn't spin over it. You are talking about two different points. I'm in agreement that the stats are bad, and that has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion on how he handles players.
Yes I know he was available in those games but we also had cup games and European competitions. Ten Hag had spoken about the need to have chemistry at the back and it couldn't be built by changing the backline all the time. It's quite clear he wanted to get sustained chemistry which Varane couldn't offer, as he can only do one game a week without getting hurt.
Worth noting when Varane was dropped we had Maguire come in and our form was good. I agree one game we really missed Varane was the Bournemouth loss though.
There's also the fact that we can't afford to miss out on CL football next season as our financial situation isn't too healthy right now. It's too risky to keep him.Still think he's gone after the final. If not, it pretty much sends a message that INEOS haven't analysed every game this season, including that CL campaign, because putting it solely down to injuries is ludicrous. I'd actually really lose faith that anything will change if a manager can have a season like this and continue.
We won a game, so naturally the poll is going to massively shift as a result
There's also the fact that we can't afford to miss out on CL football next season as our financial situation isn't too healthy right now. It's too risky to keep him.
No, I was answering a question about how he spoke to the fans, and said his general demeanour of a fighting spirit was a positive. I then said he's broadly backed his players in public unless they've taken a royal pisstake.We're discussing the manager. There are many things to discuss. You brushed over it because you didn't have a good excuse to defend it.
You think Ten Hag's desire to want a more consistent partnership at the back was talking shite, but you're more than comfortable in talking shite assuming they 'must' have fallen out, because hey feck it, that has to be the only reason?ten Hag was talking shite to justify starting Evans over him regularly. He went crawling back to Varane eventually. Varane remained professional. Fair play to him.
Funnily enough Varane was dropped to get some continuity as a partnership, since Varane can't play in congested fixture lists and that's well known.
How many PL games did Varane miss in that period and what was our form?Ah yeh, funnily enough it completely slipped my mind that Varane was dropped for Evans for the City game and beyond because of a congested fixture list.
Unexpectedly dropping your best fit centreback famously a good way to improve continuity.
By Newcastle fans.I didn't see his speech, was he booed?