With managers like Fergie, Pep, Klopp I see them instructing players and reminding them of their job to press or take up a better positions etc. ETH is often saying after game they didn't do what he said and follow the rules and doesn't seem as active on the touchline. I'm not talking about histrionics, more instructions. Players need more help in a realtime to learn and feels like he's losing his authority over time.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
- Status
I see him giving instructions all the time, usually after goals, for example our disallowed goal yesterday he was shown talking to Lindelof, I assume about tactics and not what’s for dinner.
But I do think he’s not the best at reacting in a match, Ajax fans on here warned us of it, it’s an issue. We seem to have one plan and if it goes wrong we’re in trouble. I don’t see enough adjustments to what’s happening in front of him.
Until the recent Sancho debacle I was prepared to give ETH the benifit of doubt, but the way he openly criticised an individual player is a complete no, no. It is beyond doubt the surest way of splitting the dressing room, with certain players backing the manager with the view that Jadon is swinging it, and then you will have others coming out in his defence, not good. Once a manager looses the dressing room in any way it is curtains, no way back!!!
Understandable point of view.
I personally think his 4141 / 3241, when done properly, will be good. Time will tell, if he doesn’t get sacked first.
He doesn’t really seem to want to make radical adjustments during the games. Possibly he should. His mindset seems to be that the tactics are not the problem but the fact that the players aren’t doing what they should. Perhaps he should be more flexible and revert to simple 4231 when he can see that the players are going off piste. In some ways I admire him for not doing that but it probably costs us results sometimes and may end up costing him his job. I hope not.
Ye it seems to me that Rashford is un coachable… he has worked under various managers and although he’s had spells of good form he just doesn’t play as a team as much. I think Ole got the best out of him as he’s more of a counter attacking manager which suits Rashfords play style. Also Ole had some combination play, like when Rashford and Martial use to play them 1-2 passes and quick interchanges. All that’s gone now.
Hence why 2 clubs said no to him. You know best though.
Good post.
a few thoughts:
I think I remember talking about or hearing about him adjusting tactics in games to deal with adjustments of opposition. I also remember me saying that it feels good, to finally have a manager who is up for a tactical battle. So I think, there is something to build up from. It is a tricky moment for us: our Plan A isn't really great right now. So we have to play it, tweak it, get more experienced, more patterns of play, players learning more of their tasks and responsibilities. Of course we could also just change the Plan to Plan B. Be it longterm or temporarily. But there is no way around that it will take time. Fundamental changes like ours, changing from a deep defensive line waiting to defend to a higher line going for a press will take time.
It is bad enough that the scrutiny of results is around...
You are making a great point though: obviously I expect Murtough to prepare a contingency plan right now. No manager should expect his club to not prepare for a time without you. But that doesn't mean, you are setting the recent manager up to fail. I am convinced that changing the manager will only lead to catastrophic reset, but I am even more convinced it will, if we have no or a really bad plan before doing it.
His job is to implement a system that gives us the best chance of winning with the players we have. He has a good win percentage and that does not have to equal dominating possession.
Precisely. Too many players because we keep changing managers and let them just buy whatever they want, a lot of them past their sell buy date, so no sell on value, if we sign young players they get ignored so don't get developed. Then they rot here and go for free or a pittance, Then of course far too high wages so cannot even sell players to recoup money properly. Only ADM was sold properly. The upper management needs binning and proper people brought in.
I was going to write a lengthy post of my own but this sentence sums it up perfectly.
Outside issues aside, what he’s doing with what he has at his disposal is alarming at this point.
But he has to be more flexible; his stubbornness is being weaponised against him; teams rapidly seek to drive home advantage against us because they know we will remain staunch and make no modifications. It means you can seek a follow up goal against a shell-shocked side that will remain shell-shocked for a good ten minutes after conceding.
He has to have the awareness of his weaknesses and exploits to not have them used against him. That’s as much part and parcel of being a top coach as whatever brilliant philosophy you think you have. He won’t survive if he doesn’t get to grips with the shark tank he’s in. Too much stubbornness is an amateurish trait.
He needs to get *much* better on the hop - it’s been revealed as by far his biggest failing.
So basically any manager will come good if they are given enough time? That’s a view that was repeated quite a lot under Moyes and it was as untrue then as it is now.
That's the problem. We've only heard about it. Can't think of a game where he's won the tactical battle by responding to a manager's changes.
Even against Brighton, we surprised them for 20 minutes, but once they figured us out, ETH had no response. Similar to Spurs. Once they got on top after 20 minutes or so, we barely had a sniff. Arsenal away, we had to play our hearts out just to target a smash and grab. Where are these famed in-game tactical adjustments?
If the issue is that we don't have the players who can carry two plans in their brains or legs, then he should say that and be honest about which of his own signings are part of this problem.
Indeed. Because we haven’t, and still don’t, have a properly staffed and skilled recruitment function with modern data and methods (see Brighton) and an experienced DOF that sets the high level tactics and aims.
Exactly, under the current model you have to give the manager time to replace the whole team before you can judge him because all the players are a mismatch of players that the previous managers wanted. It will be the same for the next manager who won’t want the likes of Antony or Casemiro in the team. Then what? Back to square one.
Yes I see that as well, a break in play he's consulting with them.
It's like the whole club, stuck in another decade railing against the modern ways.
I would give him more time, at least until the sqaud is stabilized in terms of injuries. If the shitshow continues then sack him. If he loses the dressing room sack him. I hope he can turn this around somehow once the players are back from injuries.
I don’t understand how once Brighton switched to this, we never adjusted.
We started well and surprised Brighton with our opening approach. But you could see it from the Stretford End that the front three no longer had any chance to make an effective press once Brighton changed how they were lining up. Can the manager not see this from the touchline?
We started well and surprised Brighton with our opening approach. But you could see it from the Stretford End that the front three no longer had any chance to make an effective press once Brighton changed how they were lining up. Can the manager not see this from the touchline?
I could imagine us hiring De Zerbi on a massive salary and long contract next. Roberto walks in on his first day and Murtough says “right, what players do you fancy buying then?“. De Zerbi - “huh, what do you mean?”
People on here talking about tactics in reality haven’t a clue about tactics. There’s so much written which is complete nonsense. And the booing of the Hojlund substitution was frustratingly ignorant. No way should he be playing 90minutes, he’s a 20 year old coming back from injury and has hardly played for a few months. I’m not saying the manager is immune for criticism and everybody is entitled to their opinion. But Ten Hag currently has a depleted squad and several difficult off pitch issues. Finally, tiny Brighton are currently one of the best teams in Europe, let alone the PL. We’re still very much rebuilding.
We have to get behind the manager. Things will get better on the pitch, particularly when Amrabat and Mainoo (who’s going to be a star) are available and Hojlund has got some more minutes under his belt. Hopefully some of the off field issue will also sort themselves out, we should be looking at Brighton as an example of how a football club should be run.
We have to get behind the manager. Things will get better on the pitch, particularly when Amrabat and Mainoo (who’s going to be a star) are available and Hojlund has got some more minutes under his belt. Hopefully some of the off field issue will also sort themselves out, we should be looking at Brighton as an example of how a football club should be run.
This back to square one rhetoric needs to go before Ten Hag's replacement is named. Things go back to square one in two ways; the beginning of a new season, and new manager bounce. That's all. When we appointed ETH we weren't back to the eve of Ole's reign, and when ETH goes it won't be back to square one. Teams evolve continuously, and when a club wins an important trophy, that evolution is slowed down, but is never stopped.
Real time coaching is something that has made leaps and bounds forward these past few years. Let’s be honest and say Klopp and Pep turned this aspect of the game on its head. You have to be able to make the right changes at the right times or you’ll be swamped before you know it. I think that’s been a massive cultural shock to ten Hag as they are way behind the PL elsewhere in regards to this.
He cannot be the stuttering general watching his troops getting flayed for too long a period (contextually) before making a deviation from what might have been a solid plan. Guess what? That plan didn’t work out; make a new one, sofort, or perish.
It’s not a coincidence when you see a Klopp side turn the tide in that way that has you turn the channel as that temporary Schadenfreude dissipates, nor how a Pep team amps up as a game goes on. The tactical modifications always have their say, so sitting on your hands for too long has that equal and disparate affect… where games get farther and farther away from you, which is what we’re becoming increasingly familiar with. Those coulda wouldas happening too often points to tactical failings not bad luck.
I think ten Hag has to show he has the capacity to get with the program, because this isn’t a one or two team league where you can bludgeon your way through via superior players and doses of stubbornness when others doubt you. We need to see tactical nuance and the ability to readjust and execute a new plan that has its own solidity over heart and passion, which really isn’t that great a currency when so many teams already have bags of it by default.
The fact that we didn't change formation until we were 3 down was ridiculous
You really can, there are fans who just hope they being yet another manager in and it will all fall into place. The problems are a lot bigger than the manager. I think any manager will struggle here. Sancho wants his arse kicking. Martial should just be got rid off, not literally. The attitude of some players stinks.
There's more to it than that. Within a month of taking the job, the cult of personality builds around the manager. The back the manager anthem gets louder and louder. More and more spoke gets blown up the managerial arsehole by the fans and those around the club.
So even a humble coach, who knows his limitations starts to believe he's some cult leader. They all turn into insufferable arrogant cocks quite soon after taking the job unfortunately, and then its hard to put them back in their place.
The players have done this before and they need ousted if this continues to happen. We can't have half arsed dickheads at the club who are all over paid and throw their toys out of the pram.
Not just ETH. It's been like this from the last 10 years
United's "strategy" needs players to be an absolute hit 80% of the time to succeed. Which it's not the case in any club.
Put the results to one side, can anybody explain why we play such a shit brand of football? if we win it's usually a grind to the final whistle and on a bad day we generally play some of the worst football in the league.
Lesser teams play much better football with 'worse' players than we have at this club.
Lesser teams play much better football with 'worse' players than we have at this club.
The players who don't meet the MU standards in training are dropped from the matchday squad, but what happens to the players who don't met the standards in a real league match? Let's see how ETH reacts.
Keep. He’s having to rebuild the squad with one hand tied behind his back.
none of his summer signings have had chance to settle in (or even play..) yet.
Varane’s injured and Maguire wouldn’t leave so we couldn’t buy a centre backs and we’re stuck with Lindelof
Antony’s “suspended” which isn’t his fault.
We couldn’t sell Martial so couldn’t afford a striker so we’ve only got one striker who isn’t fully fit yet
He’s trying to solve these issues and get rid of players that are sitting on massive wages and not contributing but they won’t leave and he doesn’t have the backing to bring In replacement’s until they do.
none of his summer signings have had chance to settle in (or even play..) yet.
Varane’s injured and Maguire wouldn’t leave so we couldn’t buy a centre backs and we’re stuck with Lindelof
Antony’s “suspended” which isn’t his fault.
We couldn’t sell Martial so couldn’t afford a striker so we’ve only got one striker who isn’t fully fit yet
He’s trying to solve these issues and get rid of players that are sitting on massive wages and not contributing but they won’t leave and he doesn’t have the backing to bring In replacement’s until they do.
Although I think quite a few managers we’ve hired are inherently quite arrogant just in the way they are - Mourinho obviously but also Van Gaal, Rangnick and Ten Hag.
Again, I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with your perspective. I think he is using the games to drill the rules and the system.
Risky and perhaps foolish but if we believe, as has been reported often, that he is meticulous in everything he does, it is likely he has considered most of the eventualities. Seems he has a favoured course and that he values the progression of the system above individual results at this stage.
It will be interesting to see what happens in the Bayern game because we can’t afford to lose a few games in the CL. If he remains tied to his principles there and shows no pragmatism then I think your take will gain even more weight.
If he's the manager to take us forward I'm not sure, I don't even know if he has the know-how to do so. But I do like that he is trying to enforce some discipline, it might backfire on him but I do think we need it in the squad, too many prima-donnas.
Sure United are in a bad moment...but the team is having to constantly change defence/midfield/attack due to injuries.
The front 3...
Garnacho-Rashford-Antony x2
Rashford-Martial-Antony x2
Rashford-Hojlund- ???
Plus with all the noise in the background from the sale/takeover, Greenwood, Antony, Sancho...it's not really a surprise the team isn't functioning.
Just need to block out the endless media bollocks and take it one game at a time, get back to enjoying the mini battles, high-five winning a throw-in etc haha.
The front 3...
Garnacho-Rashford-Antony x2
Rashford-Martial-Antony x2
Rashford-Hojlund- ???
Plus with all the noise in the background from the sale/takeover, Greenwood, Antony, Sancho...it's not really a surprise the team isn't functioning.
Just need to block out the endless media bollocks and take it one game at a time, get back to enjoying the mini battles, high-five winning a throw-in etc haha.
Cannot believe this is even a question.
The level of injury and off-field crises ETH has had to deal with is unprecedented, quite frankly. We’ve also played 3 very strong attacking sides out of 5.
He had a comfortably above average season last year and needs far more patience from us fans.
The level of injury and off-field crises ETH has had to deal with is unprecedented, quite frankly. We’ve also played 3 very strong attacking sides out of 5.
He had a comfortably above average season last year and needs far more patience from us fans.
Do you think that is what is being said? Any manager can do it?
It would be insanity to sack him now, I think. All the off field issues, and injuries will still be there. Only a small fraction of managers are available as replacements. Transfer window is shut until January. Utd might not even have money to spend due to FFP in any case.
He showed at the beginning of last season that he can foster a response to very disappointing results. It would be the knee-jerk to end all knee-jerks if he was sacked in September.
He showed at the beginning of last season that he can foster a response to very disappointing results. It would be the knee-jerk to end all knee-jerks if he was sacked in September.
Keep. I'd be giving him until the end of the season.
I didn't subscribe to the idea that he did so well last season. He did preside over the Liverpool loss which to me was the worst in the club's history. He also was in change for the Sevilla match which wasn't far behind. We got extremely lucky that Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs fell off a cliff.
This season is clearly make or break. His signings have looked extremely average. He hasn't improved any players. I thought being a systems guy he would get the best out of players like Sancho but it's the opposite.
I really do believe we are going to have a terrible season. City Arsenal Liverpool Spurs Brighton Chelsea and Newcastle all to finish ahead of us. He still has to be given the chance though.
I didn't subscribe to the idea that he did so well last season. He did preside over the Liverpool loss which to me was the worst in the club's history. He also was in change for the Sevilla match which wasn't far behind. We got extremely lucky that Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs fell off a cliff.
This season is clearly make or break. His signings have looked extremely average. He hasn't improved any players. I thought being a systems guy he would get the best out of players like Sancho but it's the opposite.
I really do believe we are going to have a terrible season. City Arsenal Liverpool Spurs Brighton Chelsea and Newcastle all to finish ahead of us. He still has to be given the chance though.
Keep since he is elite, but not a huge fan of his nostalgia recruitment. He is no dof. And seem purist to a fault, that will be his downfall.
- Status