Not a coping mechanism, but eluding to the fact that ten hag wasn't at his worst, worse than Ole. Given your example pointed to a season where he finished third and got two cup finals with one cup. He at least churned out results.That is just a coping mechanism. That 7-0 was horrendous and one of the worst results the club has had. No amount of cope will erase how horrible that was.
Ole was shite but ETH isn't leaps better, the side just lost 3-0 at fecking home to Bournemouth who are only above relegation because this year Sheffield United, Luton and Burnley have decided to challenge Derby as the worst team to ever grace the league. ETH has lost 4-0 to bus stop in Hounslow. Have we beaten a top 10 team away from home yet? Genuine question as I remember the stat floating around a couple months ago.
No problem with that. If they don't work, we sack them and get someone else. The alternative is wasting time and money hoping a manager who can't hack it works out. Why waste time? As a team looking to succeed, you try, try again until it works. I don't see the point of self-flagellating and saying the club is broken. If the manager isn't doing a good job, find someone else who may be able to do it. Attempt to fix the structure, and if that manager isn't working, sack him too. Let the media talk and make stories about us sacking managers, but they'll be the same media praising us once a new manager succeeds. Like Real, they'll completely forget the fact that managers were sacked prior.I remember most of our fans wanted Rangnick as Caretaker and then ETH/pochettino in the summer. The club did what was wanted but as usual the fans choice failed. Can’t remember the route after Mourinho.
At least Ole could win away from home against decent opposition. Still waiting for ETH. Let's hope at Anfield he can finally do itNot a coping mechanism, but eluding to the fact that ten hag wasn't at his worst, worse than Ole. Given your example pointed to a season where he finished third and got two cup finals with one cup. He at least churned out results.
Ole ball at its worst was fecking awful and our players just didn't run. It was a pile of wank, way worse than what we see now.
Caretakers are easy to get. Their job is just to steady the ship, it's not a big deal. But talking about an actual option ready and available to take over, was only right when we sacked Moyes and LVG. Back then we already had an agreement in place with both LVG and Mourinho respectively. When we sacked Mourinho and Ole, we had no succession plan whatsoever as these came out at unexpected circumstances. We weren't planning to sack both.I remember most of our fans wanted Rangnick as Caretaker and then ETH/pochettino in the summer. The club did what was wanted but as usual the fans choice failed. Can’t remember the route after Mourinho.
Even if you want to end it when Wout arrived in January, when we beat City, that's still over four months. We were even briefly (and stupidly) considered title contenders at one point in January.That is not harsh, that is what happened. After a dreadful start we improved and were really good for about three months until the World Cup. Then Wout came in January and the football immediately deteriorated. We just about held it together until the cup final in February but after that we were awful, both the results and the performances, and it looked at one point like we’d manage to lose our top 4 spot. It’s been almost a year now of genuinely horrible football.
I’m not giving manager any pass but he’s too weak or blind to do anything. 6 players started tonight were also prominent under Ole. Maguire, Shaw, Mctominay, dalot, Bruno and martial. So our current starting 11 is still not that different to Ole’s. Players like Mctominay, Rashy and Bruno are still the problem for us and I would include dalot and shaw in that list too.It's the manager. This squad is substantially different to the one even Ole had - people seem to be under the impression this is the same team Moyes had or something
Yeah but Ole also fell too far out of top 4 and had the players just give up. The big picture is what matters and Ole fell out of it.At least Ole could win away from home against decent opposition. Still waiting for ETH. Let's hope at Anfield he can finally do it
Which was owing to our good run before the World Cup and was after the City match, which happened before Wout’s debut, yeah. We were great from around the beginning September until near the end of January, so that’s five good months, and in one of them we didn’t play. Simply put, the progress people talk about from last season mostly happened during three months leading up to the World Cup, which looks more and more like a purple patch and an outlier.Even if you want to end it when Wout arrived in January, when we beat City, that's still over four months. We were even briefly (and stupidly) considered title contenders at one point in January.
The fact is that our form was very good for six months, regardless if performances fell off a bit (although we still managed to win our League Cup semi by an aggregate of 5-0, win the final 2-0, and beat Barcelona in the run between Wout joining and the end of February). There's plenty of stuff to criticise Ten Hag for without downplaying the good run we had last season.
Got to agree, I don’t understand why he thinks we can play with just one holding midfielder in the premier league and especially with our team. Secondly why would you not play the best 1 on 1 defender in world football when the only way the opposition can score is through a counter attack! Some of his decisions are baffling. I want to give him more time but he really needs to improve and fastI’m not ETH out. I’m willing to see how it pans out once we have a more settled XI as the season is buggered anyway…but he has to play Amrabat and Mainoo together. We just can’t be that open. How can he think that is acceptable? How can he persist with one in there?
Yes we have - we sacked Mourinho, one of the most successful managers of all time after a summer where we didn't get his target players (after a season we finished 2nd) and replaced him with Ole, who had been relegated with Cardiff and then been at Molde. Yes, he was a relative success (against all odds) and it was nostalgic but, for the biggest club in the world, it wasn't a viable option.So long answer short, you can't think of a good alternative.
We've never once sacked a manager without viable alternatives. No club in their right mind would do that.
I'm saying there are managers, we just don't have access to see who they are. Most great coaches do not come as a result of high profile success elsewhere. So fans won't know them. Take the NBA for example. Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Greg Popovich, Steve Kerr...none of them were considered outstanding before they interviewed and took the jobs they took. It's the same with football. From Pep, to Flick, to Wenger, to Conte. There's no point saying we shouldn't sack a manager because as fans we don't see any that seem better than ETH, when we don't know that for sure. It would be like saying it's pointless to sign a striker or right winger as we don't see any that we know are currently available. In order to see the best fit of who's available and whether they're style would fit, it requires research and interviews. It requires a process. Many fans wouldn't have touched Unai Emery after the Arsenal job. But here we are with fans raving about him.No, I'm genuinely asking who you think should be manager of Utd.
There have always been options that I thought would be good for the club when we sacked previous managers, and gettable ones at that.
Poch and EtH were the long-term options after Ole, Mourinho was the option following on from LvG. Jose was arguably the only anomaly because he effectively made his position untenable.
Right now, I don't think there is a manager better than ETH that we can attract. I also think that any bump in form from this set of players under a new manager would be temporary.
We need to focus on far bigger issues at tre club instead of plastering over the ever expanding gaps. Aka constantly changing managers and fulfilling the same mediocre cycle.
But do you think we have the right setup at the club to recycle managers like that? All the examples mentioned above allude to clubs with football directors in place/people managing the long-term vision of football operations. We don't have that and what's more, we essentially have to completely rebuild our entire squad based on the preferences of the managers we get in. It's entirely unsustainable from a business and football angle to operate that way. If our managers had to operate as coaches then yes, you can chop and change. For us, our managers have to set the entire tone around the football club. And you can't change that every 2 seasons and expect success. No one can succeed properly in that setup.I'm saying there are managers, we just don't have access to see who they are. Most great coaches do not come as a result of high profile success elsewhere. So fans won't know them. Take the NBA for example. Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Greg Popovich, Steve Kerr...none of them were considered outstanding before they interviewed and took the jobs they took. It's the same with football. From Pep, to Flick, to Wenger, to Conte. There's no point saying we shouldn't sack a manager because as fans we don't see any that seem better than ETH, when we don't know that for sure. It would be like saying it's pointless to sign a striker or right winger as we don't see any that we know are currently available. In order to see the best fit of who's available and whether they're style would fit, it requires research and interviews. It requires a process. Many fans wouldn't have touched Unai Emery after the Arsenal job. But here we are with fans raving about him.
I also don't think it's a cycle. I think it's a natural process. We just treat sacking managers like it's a terrible thing. We've hired poor managers and we've sacked them because they weren't good enough on the job. Madrid, Bayern, Chelsea and Barca have sacked more managers than we have over the last 10 years despite having far more success. We just always treat it like a dawn of a new era, when in actuality it should be part of the process. We're not used to sacking managers and as a club, we've always like to be on the right side of the media, but the truth is, to get success, you have to cut your losses as soon as you know its not working. Zidane doesn't get hired if Benitez isn't sacked. Tuchel doesn't get hired if Lampard isn't sacked. Flick isn't hired if Kovac isn't sacked. Each club had a reason for hiring each predecessor. They all thought that they would be somewhat successful, but realized that it wasn't working, sacked them and achieved success with a new manager. Madrid took less than 3 months to find this out about Benitez, as short enough time to eventually lead them to a champions league victory. It's not plastering over a crack, its throwing away something that isn't working and trying something new. Instead of doing the same thing over and over again, which would be keeping the manager. As a club, we can only ever hire managers. The club can't control what happens on the pitch, the managers and players can. So in order to have success on the pitch, it's paramount that you have to have enough good players and a good enough manager to succeed. It's frustrating, but its essential for success. Ten Haag hasn't shown in terms of performance, that he's the right man for the job. This isn't a team showing good football, that with better players would be able to play well. Arsenal under Wenger in his later years is an example of what that would look like. Beating most teams at home with high scoring performances, having a few poor performances away from home, and mostly struggling to beat the best teams. We're losing to everyone and playing poorly in almost every game for a long enough period that we are out of the title race despite it being more open this year, almost out of the champions league, and en route to not making the top 4.
We had a gap of 6 weeks between games for the World Cup.Which was owing to our good run before the World Cup and was after the City match, which happened before Wout’s debut, yeah. We were great from around the beginning September until near the end of January, so that’s five good months, and in one of them we didn’t play. Simply put, the progress people talk about from last season mostly happened during three months leading up to the World Cup, which looks more and more like a purple patch and an outlier.
Once Martinez is back, all these issues will be solved and we will turn into prime Barcelona.I dont know what kind of coaching is being offered. Dalot is shooting instead of crossing, most players keep making braindead decisions.
But I guess a structure and owners can change that.
The football under Ole was miles better than this trash. His two full seasons were fun to watch (, with some real firepower upfront and some excellent performances. How anyone could think that’s the worst football we’ve played in the last 10 years is beyond me.He won us a cup and last season wasn't as depressing as people make out.
Ole nosedived in form after he got his permanent contract. I've never seen worse football from us in my life as I did under Ole at that point, and then once stadiums reopened. Our longest trophy drought was also under him.
Honestly he was the worst by a country mile. Say what you want about ten hag but he doesn't get thumped 4-0 by sides bottom of the league.
No it wasn't. After his permanent deal his form nose dived and he was utter drivel. Then in empty stadiums he won from some good comebacks victories and it looked decent until stadiums reopened and he Wass utter dogshite again. The table showed how far he fell off.The football under Ole was miles better than this trash. His two full seasons were fun to watch (, with some real firepower upfront and some excellent performances. How anyone could think that’s the worst football we’ve played in the last 10 years is beyond me.
Did he have the best tactical acumen? No, of course not. However, he implemented a style that the players understood and made us a team who others feared playing again. It all went wrong in his last season but I enjoyed his time in charge up to then.
Not disagreeing with you. I do think we need a DOF and football structure, but I don't think that this has hampered our managers as much as fans seem to think. I think a good manager would have had us playing good but inconsistent football with the current set up, but that's only with the assumption that the managers would be as bad and wasteful in the transfer window as our managers have been. They would not have the quality to win a lot of big games ( similar to late stage Arsenal), but would be known for playing good football. Arsenal's squads over the years were still able to beat teams with the like of Bendtnar, Denilson, Walcott, Bellerin and Coquelin playing every week.But do you think we have the right setup at the club to recycle managers like that? All the examples mentioned above allude to clubs with football directors in place/people managing the long-term vision of football operations. We don't have that and what's more, we essentially have to completely rebuild our entire squad based on the preferences of the managers we get in. It's entirely unsustainable from a business and football angle to operate that way. If our managers had to operate as coaches then yes, you can chop and change. For us, our managers have to set the entire tone around the football club. And you can't change that every 2 seasons and expect success. No one can succeed properly in that setup.
The club needs to change it's internal football structure and get a clear idea of what it's aiming to do before making any managerial changes. It's that simple.
By the way, for the record, I think Pep would fail at Utd. I think Klopp would fail at Utd. I think any manager in the game right now would fail here. We are rotten from the top down and trying to avoid a flood by simply moving to the next house along ain't going to fix much for long.
Sounds like a certain Dutch manager I know.No it wasn't. After his permanent deal his form nose dived and he was utter drivel. Then in empty stadiums he won from some good comebacks victories and it looked decent until stadiums reopened and he Wass utter dogshite again. The table showed how far he fell off.
He is the worst by a country mile. He had no style, just a "go out there and do your thing" vibes. Shit coach, great guy though.
The only managers I don’t think fans wanted was Moyes and can’t remember hearing much about LVG. Pretty sure everyone wanted Mourinho as they thought he could challenge with pep. The Rangnick caretaker route wass another. Think the fans was split on the Ole decision.As usual implies that it's happened quite a number of times. I can't remember any other time a clear favourite was appointed. I can remember two or three occasions when players were bought that the fans were keen on, Sanchez, Pogba, and Ronaldo. And that all turned to shit. But not managers.
100% this. So tired of this revision of history where Ole's whole tenure was a never ending ground hog day of rubbish football with some.lucky results. It was until that last season (barring a few spells) the most enjoyable football we've played since Fergie retired.The football under Ole was miles better than this trash. His two full seasons were fun to watch (, with some real firepower upfront and some excellent performances. How anyone could think that’s the worst football we’ve played in the last 10 years is beyond me.
Did he have the best tactical acumen? No, of course not. However, he implemented a style that the players understood and made us a team who others feared playing again. It all went wrong in his last season but I enjoyed his time in charge up to then.
Lindelof came off with an injury complaint vs Chelsea and we don't actually know if Hojlund is able to play every 3 days (he probably isn''t).He keeps making the same mistakes. When we dominate and play well in a game he changes it a little bit the following game for no reason whatsoever. Martial in for Hojlund. Mistake. Shaw at CB mistake.
What exactly is the relevance of the empty stadiums?? Does that somehow prevent other teams playing football but not us? The reality is that he had an 18 month or so spell when we were primarily good to watch. We had problems breaking down low blocks but EtH hasn’t fixed that. We were capable of going toe to toe with decent teams home and away - EtH has definitely fixed that.No it wasn't. After his permanent deal his form nose dived and he was utter drivel. Then in empty stadiums he won from some good comebacks victories and it looked decent until stadiums reopened and he Wass utter dogshite again. The table showed how far he fell off.
He is the worst by a country mile. He had no style, just a "go out there and do your thing" vibes. Shit coach, great guy though.
It's just a rewriting of history by manager cultists to demonise the players. Some of them should leave, but let's not forget the managers all get sacked for a reason.It's the manager. This squad is substantially different to the one even Ole had - people seem to be under the impression this is the same team Moyes had or something
I don't know why Shaw at CB is getting as much flack as it is. He played well enough. The issues came ahead of him on the pitchHe keeps making the same mistakes. When we dominate and play well in a game he changes it a little bit the following game for no reason whatsoever. Martial in for Hojlund. Mistake. Shaw at CB mistake.
Everyone played in empty stadiums but it masks fragility in some teams - those who cower under pressure of fans. Ole's impressive away record (and general record) fell into shits not long after stadiums reopened. Not just because of fans, but also because he was pretty shit.What exactly is the relevance of the empty stadiums?? Does that somehow prevent other teams playing football but not us? The reality is that he had an 18 month or so spell when we were primarily good to watch. We had problems breaking down low blocks but EtH hasn’t fixed that. We were capable of going toe to toe with decent teams home and away - EtH has definitely fixed that.
Yes, Ten Hag has definitely made mistakes. Mount I just feel is a weird one to get angry about because it was well reported even Klopp and Arteta wanted him. Mount has had his own fitness issues and hasn't worked out because of that more than anything else. But I dont want to get into a Mount debate and derail the thread - my point was Ole was epicshite.EtH has had some bad luck with injuries but a lot of his problems seem to be caused by his own bad decisions. As soon as he wanted to sign Mount this summer, most of us saw the potential problems but thought he must have a clever plan. Turns out he didn’t - exactly the problems expected arose. Even having realised Mount isn’t good enough, he’s still playing the same disjointed formation by including McT in a more advanced role.
Under Ole we underperformed our XG almost all the way through his best season. It tends to be a leading indicator - and I agree with you that our performances need to be more convincing if we are to turn a corner under Ten Hag. He cant have games like Sheffield and Luton and Fulham and Brentford where we are not all that convincing but win anyway. He will need to register comprehensive victories - I agree wholeheartedly here.The incredible thing about this season is that we are actually getting better results than our performances deserve. We really should be bottom half on the basis of our overall displays.
Again this garbage pass map which highlights his vision of pushing midfielders forward and having 2 batches of 5 basically. It's never going to work in the Prem. It's too hard a league. This isn't the Dutch league.Tweet
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We have a terrible record against the top 9 and struggle to put away teams below even that.What exactly is the relevance of the empty stadiums?? Does that somehow prevent other teams playing football but not us? The reality is that he had an 18 month or so spell when we were primarily good to watch. We had problems breaking down low blocks but EtH hasn’t fixed that. We were capable of going toe to toe with decent teams home and away - EtH has definitely fixed that.
EtH has had some bad luck with injuries but a lot of his problems seem to be caused by his own bad decisions. As soon as he wanted to sign Mount this summer, most of us saw the potential problems but thought he must have a clever plan. Turns out he didn’t - exactly the problems expected arose. Even having realised Mount isn’t good enough, he’s still playing the same disjointed formation by including McT in a more advanced role.
The incredible thing about this season is that we are actually getting better results than our performances deserve. We really should be bottom half on the basis of our overall displays.
100% anyone thinking this is better is delusional.The football under Ole was miles better than this trash. His two full seasons were fun to watch (, with some real firepower upfront and some excellent performances. How anyone could think that’s the worst football we’ve played in the last 10 years is beyond me.
Did he have the best tactical acumen? No, of course not. However, he implemented a style that the players understood and made us a team who others feared playing again. It all went wrong in his last season but I enjoyed his time in charge up to then.
Takes away our play down the left though. I think him and Garnacho link up very well.I don't know why Shaw at CB is getting as much flack as it is. He played well enough. The issues came ahead of him on the pitch
I won’t derail this further but you’d expect the better managers to be more able to get their ideas across in empty stadiums, without the emotion of some of the intense atmospheres. If our players were less able to cope once stadiums came back, then that would suggest that’s on them not being strong enough, rather than a tactics issue by the manager. Anyway, I agree Ole ultimately wasn’t good enough but he’s the only manager to me who has brought any real joy in watching the team in our style of play over the past 10 years, so I’m going to defend him against accusations he was our worst manager.Everyone played in empty stadiums but it masks fragility in some teams - those who cower under pressure of fans. Ole's impressive away record (and general record) fell into shits not long after stadiums reopened. Not just because of fans, but also because he was pretty shit.
Yes, Ten Hag has definitely made mistakes. Mount I just feel is a weird one to get angry about because it was well reported even Klopp and Arteta wanted him. Mount has had his own fitness issues and hasn't worked out because of that more than anything else. But I dont want to get into a Mount debate and derail the thread - my point was Ole was epicshite.
Under Ole we underperformed our XG almost all the way through his best season. It tends to be a leading indicator - and I agree with you that our performances need to be more convincing if we are to turn a corner under Ten Hag. He cant have games like Sheffield and Luton and Fulham and Brentford where we are not all that convincing but win anyway. He will need to register comprehensive victories - I agree wholeheartedly here.
Yes, I didn’t mean “fixed” in a positive way!We have a terrible record against the top 9 and struggle to put away teams below even that.
